#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2012-06-07

wpwrakcladamw: (string to number) simple: you can't :)00:44
cladamwwpwrak, hehe ... okay.00:45
wpwrakbut if you have a string value in a table, you can always add another column with a numeric value00:45
cladamwyeah ... i did like that way. :-)00:45
wpwrakor try to use numbers as much as possible and only convert them to strings when you really need a string00:45
cladamwyeah ... indeed.00:50
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: stdpass.fpd: added a cathode for polarized variants(xxxxP) started from 0603 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/c05a60301:11
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/57ab74701:11
wpwrakoh, and if you want to use string comparison, then you should upgrade your fped and use the new key feature :)01:13
wpwrakupgrading fped should be very easy: git pull  and then   make install01:13
cladamwhmm ... do now01:17
cladamwwpwrak, rev 59b90b3 ?01:21
wpwrakwhen editing a variable or column name, you'see that there's a new field above the name. it says "assign". if you click on it, it changes to "key" and a question mark appears before the name in the table01:25
wpwrakyou can change it back to "assign" by editing it again and clicking on "key"01:26
wpwrakif it's set to "assign", it works as it did before01:26
wpwrakif it is set to "key", fped will look for a variable/column with that name, and only consider the rows of the table where the values match01:28
cladamwwhen a variable is set to "key", i see a '?key'01:30
cladamwso a '?variable' means expression like   if variable = xx  then do ...  ?01:31
wpwrakyes, exactly01:32
cladamwgood, need to practice.  tks a lot. :-)01:33
wpwrakany of the keys in a row doesn't match (you can have more than one key if you like things complicated :), then the row is simply ignored. just as if you had deleted it01:33
cladamwwpwrak, where can i find your X1 datasheet url of atben ?02:16
cladamwwpwrak, sorry, no need. :-)02:21
whitequarkwpwrak: have you considered just adding guile instead of inventing YALNON? (yet another language no one needs)02:22
whitequarkor (gasp) javascript, for all those arduino kids. I'm for guile, through.02:22
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: xtal-4.fpd: (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/3baf66a02:35
qi-botThe build has FAILED: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building/Nanonote/Ben/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20120607-0112 03:11
wolfspraulwow this ultrasonic cleaner is so cool03:57
wolfspraulI stacked up on a whole bunch of tools for my home lab, great advantage of beijing that pretty much all tools cost at most 50 usd03:58
wolfspraulthe cleaner was maybe 20 usd or so03:58
wolfspraulwhat happens if I hold my finger in it? :-)03:58
kyakwolfspraul: that was your last phrase, are you in a hospital now? :)04:17
wolfspraulcontemplating which finger is best for the test :-)04:20
wolfspraulthat cleaner is really cool, I will go through all sorts of things and really clean them finally04:20
kyakdoes it look like a dish washing machine?04:21
wolfspraulit's very small, household appliance04:23
whitequarkwolfspraul: just put your finger in04:48
whitequarknothing will happen04:48
whitequarkwell, except maybe some cleaning. nothing harmful, definitely04:48
wolfspraulI would think so too. you feel some tickling?04:49
whitequarkyeah, a little bit04:49
wolfspraulmaybe I do an animal test first? :-) (just kidding, just kidding)04:49
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: xtal-2.fpd: added 2-pins smd xtal pattern -> xtal2-11.5mmx4.83mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/eb8132c05:44
wolfspraulwhitequark: cool. it took me a while to convince myself to listen to you, but finally I did :-)05:55
wolfsprauland indeed, just some interesting tickling effect05:55
wpwrakwhitequark: (YALNON) hmm, you may want to study the structure of the fped language. it has very specific characteristics designed for allowing things to be expressed in text or graphically: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/fped/source/tree/master/README06:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: (cleaner) you'll feel a weak tingling sensation :)06:28
wpwrakthat is, unless you got some especially mean device. but that one would rip your chips apart, too.06:29
wpwrakah, you tried. good :)06:30
wolfspraulyes, tried06:31
wolfspraulthe box even has German on it, seems Germans like cleaning06:31
wolfspraulsince I buy a (hard to find) ultrasonic cleaner in a beijing street market, and then the outside of the box is in German :-)06:32
wolfspraulthat cleaner, 25 USD. rework station, 25 USD. dremel 20 usd. drilling machine, 20 USD, etc. etc.06:32
wpwrakor maybe it's for the swiss. they're even a bit more obsessive about such things :)06:32
wolfspraullaser printer, 100 usd. a little on the expensive side :-)06:32
wolfsprauliron, 15 usd06:32
wolfspraulthey also have (original) weller soldering irons here, but when you hear those prices (300 usd for a simple iron), it's like from another planet06:33
wpwrak(ultrasonic cleaner) i wonder what model you got. hope it's not too powerful. you chips don;t need much encouragement.06:33
wpwrak(weller) yeah ;-)06:33
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: xtal-4.fpd: added xtal4-5mmx3.2mm variant package (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/bcdcbdb06:38
wolfspraulI bought this one, vgt-800 http://www.vgt.cc/en/product1.asp?Menuid=11&id=2906:42
wolfspraul35W, 40khz frequency06:42
wolfspraulI simply buy the cheapest first, then find out what breaks, where performance lacks, etc. it's much more fun (and faster) playing with a cheap 20 USD thingie and then scaling up when needed...06:43
whitequark(tingling sensation) was that a nethack reference?..06:51
whitequark(fped) very interesting, I should really try the kicad toolchain06:53
wolfspraulcups was mentioned the other day. what's the short story on it?07:05
wolfspraulapple bought the devs/copyright a while ago, and then?07:05
wpwrak(nethack) maybe unconsciously ;-)07:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: looks like a good choice. not too potent. lacks a frequency sweep (to avoid resonances), but that's to be expected at the low end.07:15
wpwrak(cups) the (apple-paid) developers recently dropped a feature used on linux. it seemed like an unfriendly act but without overly severe consequences to me.07:16
wpwrak(don't remember the details)07:16
wolfspraulah ok07:17
wolfspraulyou think the ultrasonic action can damage chips? how so?07:17
wpwrakif it hits the resonant frequency of some elements in the chip (e.g., leads), then they can break07:31
wpwrakat least that's what i've read. haven't had any chip fail due to ultrasound damage yet :)07:36
wolfspraulwpwrak: I'm thinking about the issues around submerging an entire pcba in water10:10
wolfspraulnaturally you don't want it to be powered anywhere, #110:11
wolfspraulwhich includes batteries or supercaps10:11
wolfspraulbut what else on the board could be incompatible with water? some parts where the water might soak into?10:11
wolfspraulvias in the pcb even? or some water under a mechanical connector where it doesn't dry easily10:12
wolfspraulhow would you dry the board after water submersion?10:12
wolfspraulwhat should be the longest time under water? 3 minutes? more? less?10:12
wolfsprauljust thinking10:13
wolfspraulthere's probably a number of things that could be soldered on a pcb that better not get submerged in water, I would think10:13
vladkorotnevhey guys10:29
vladkorotnevjust a quick question10:29
vladkorotnevwhat program is to run a prog with a different encoding in a tty that is incompatible?10:30
vladkorotnevlike iconv, but for progs10:30
jivs_hi xiangfu 10:35
xiangfujivs_, Hi10:35
jivs_I have now solved that error in my 64bit system by adding disable-shared on guile makefile10:35
jivs_Can you try that and see in your system plz10:36
jivs_HOST_CONFIGURE_ARGS += --disable-shared --with-libgmp-prefix 10:36
xiangfujivs_, yes. git pull...10:36
jivs_I haven't committed on qipackages10:37
xiangfuok. 10:37
jivs_just one line, if it works then we can add 10:37
jivs_it is just the --disable-shared option which is required.10:37
jivs_fingers crossed.. i am hopeful it will work now:-)10:39
xiangfuhttp://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building: is for failed build or building .10:39
xiangfuhttp://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/ is the success build place.10:40
xiangfufor example: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building/Nanonote/Ben/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20120601-0638/ <-- this one is a failed build. we can check the all build log. just FYI.10:40
jivs_okay thanks10:41
jivs_strangely the error occurs only in 64bit systems. so it took me time to figure out the solution10:42
xiangfujivs_, great. compile just fine. please commit your change.11:14
jivs_I will commit now11:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: (water) normally, pcbas don't mind water or alcohol. if any power sources are present, ions may make contact in some form, but it's usually a non-issue, because the very reason why you want to clean it has probably already provided plenty of ions free to do as they please11:53
wpwrakalso, you should use demineralized water (in the cleaner) to avoid adding ions11:54
wpwrakto evict tap water (manual cleaning), i use alcohol11:54
wpwrakwith the ultrasonic bath, i just the the critter dry11:55
wpwrakone risk may be that packages absorb some water and could then suffer damage when soldering11:55
wpwrakbut their ability to do that is also limited. so it's probably fairly safe. i don't recall any issues in solder-clean-solder/rework cycles, even with obstinate components11:57
wolfspraulyou mean you clean the bathtub (?) with alcohol first?12:01
wolfsprauland what do you mean with "use the critter dry"? don't understand12:02
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: c-smd.fpd: added packages for SMD Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/71a66c712:28
wpwrak(bathtub) naw, a few lone ions won't hurt :)12:36
wpwrakthe alcohol would be for cases where you scrub a pcb(a) manually under the tap12:36
wpwrak(critter dry) the pcba. shaking off the excess (deionized) water is often enough12:37
wpwrakthe electrical problem with water is not the H2O itself but the ions. so as long as the water is reasonably pure it won't cause much trouble12:38
wpwrakthe other problem with water is the formation of steam, when heated. if this happens in a confined space, a (tiny) explosion will result12:39
wolfspraulI can't follow12:41
wolfspraulso basically you say "use demineralized water only"12:42
wolfspraulthat's #112:42
wolfspraulthen no need for special drying, just shaking off the water and waiting a bit for it to evaporate. maybe hair dryer?12:42
wolfspraulor no hair dryer, because of steam problem...12:43
DocScrutinizer05(<wolfspraul> wpwrak: I'm thinking about the issues around submerging an entire pcba in water) things that don't like water at all: microphone, battery, several switches, possibly barometric sensor, humidity sensor12:48
DocScrutinizer05wolfspraul: removing water under chips and from inside mech switches is hard12:53
DocScrutinizer05wolfspraul: I usually clean severely polluted PCBA under flowing tap water, with a smooth brush. then rinse with pure alcohol (it's hygroscopic and will dillute/supersede the water - partially). Then I dry PCBA on slightly elevated temperature (50°C, PC's PSU exhaust fan etc) for at least 3 days, depending on my guts feeling regarding problematic components on that particular PCBA sometimes even for a week or two12:56
DocScrutinizer05protecting things like speakers, microphones etc that can't get removed from PCBA12:57
DocScrutinizer05some scortchtape patch often helps for those components12:58
DocScrutinizer05aaah, I forgot one step12:59
wolfspraulthat's a different use case though (but still very good), where you have a very dirty pcba after years of use12:59
DocScrutinizer05blow out water/alcohol with pressurized air12:59
wolfspraulyeah, ok12:59
wolfspraulgot it13:00
DocScrutinizer05(years of use) usually spilled coke13:00
DocScrutinizer05or the like13:00
DocScrutinizer05even more often simply dropped device into water / soup / toilet / whatever13:00
DocScrutinizer05beer XP - I actually heard of someone whose friends or dunno who threw his device into his beer13:02
DocScrutinizer05"here, that's what you can do with your damn phone!" ;-D13:03
DocScrutinizer05time for another coffee here13:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: the hair dryer is just hot air. it won't cause water to expand violently :)13:49
wpwrak(beer phone) interesting concept :)13:50
wpwrakbasically anything that doesn't need special precautions when soldering should be fine with water. after all, that's how pcbas are cleaned in industry as well.13:53
wolfspraula complete pcba in water? I haven't seen that so far14:06
wolfspraulwe can ask Adam tomorrow14:06
wolfspraulbrushes yes14:06
wolfspraulI cannot really imagine a wide-spread use of water for pcba cleaning even just because drying will be slow, and every second matters14:07
qi-bot[commit] Jiva Nath Bagale: fixed gmp shared library issue for guile2 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/35f6adf14:07
qi-bot[commit] Jiva Nath Bagale: Merge branch 'master' of git://projects.qi-hardware.com/openwrt-packages (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e2e4bcd14:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: so ... how boom's "back office" works15:19
wolfspraul(but my evening wine bottle is already opened :-)15:19
wpwrakthat's the part of it that knows part characteristics and the inventories of providers15:19
wolfspraulso reception quality may degrade15:19
wpwrakor improve ;-)15:19
wpwrakwhat it does is that it starts with a relatively general query on digi-key, e.g., "murata".15:20
wpwrakthis will yield a list of categories. it picks the one we're interested in at that time.15:20
wpwrakthen it refines the query by making selections in the parametric search15:20
wpwrakall this query process is something someone has to set up manually. the goal is to extract all the elements belonging to a certain produce series, e.g., the xyz series of ceramic caps15:21
wpwrakwith the list, the "backend" goes to the detailed page for each item and extracts part number, pricing, stock, and textual description15:22
wpwrakit stores pricing, stock, and description keyed by vendor plus vendor part number15:23
wpwrakthen it takes the vendor part number and decodes it. there are scripts (again, manually provided), that do this kind of work. they generate a list of parameters for that part15:24
wpwrakthese go in turn into the parts characteristics database15:24
wpwrakand that's all15:24
wpwrakthen the "interactive" part of boom comes and searches the characteristics for, say, T=R R=100k FP=0603 TOL<=5%15:25
wpwrakthe "backend" runs indendently from the frontend. could even run in a central place and distribute tarballs of the tables it generates. not sure about copyright issues, though. at least the textual descriptions should be copyrightable, if not prices, inventory, and provider part numbers as well15:27
wpwrakthis would be an example of a part number decoding script: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/boom/manu/yageo/yageo.gen15:32
wpwrakand these would be the digi-key query scripts: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/boom/dist/dk/yageo-cc.catq15:33
wolfspraulgood that I have some prior boom v1 knowledge :-)15:35
wpwrakhehe :)15:47
wpwrakit's much simpler than the gta02-core workflow, which had all that, plus the things from FIC :)15:48
wpwrakof course, you can also complexify this one. e.g., by adding other providers15:48
vladkorotnevhey guys, is there multichannel in irssi?16:05
Aylaof course16:08
vladkorotnevhow does it work?16:09
vladkorotnevand doesnt tmux interfere?16:09
Aylatmux? ...16:09
vladkorotnevyep that thing for multiple terminals in a tty16:10
vladkorotnevmaybe keybindings interfere so i cant use multiroom anyway lol16:10
larscmy irssi runs in a screen16:10
vladkorotnevwhat is the key to switch windows in irssi?16:11
vladkorotnevreally, debian + tmux = best for netbooks!16:12
Aylareally? esc?16:12
AylaI don't use that16:12
vladkorotnevesc, then num of window16:12
AylaI do use alt + left/right16:12
vladkorotnevits switchin tty's, no?16:13
larscesc + q to p works as well for window 11-2016:13
Aylavladkorotnev, not under X16:13
vladkorotnevyou use xorg16:13
vladkorotnevi'm in pure cli :P16:13
Aylathen Ctrl + N/P16:14
vladkorotnevnumbers are faster if u remember where is what16:15
vladkorotnevC-n/p works too16:15
Aylait's a bit of a pain to use on azerty keyboards16:15
Aylaas you have to press Shift to enter a number16:15
vladkorotnevand window Q isnt in line with WER etc16:16
Action: DocScrutinizer05 is happy with xchat ;-D18:05
DocScrutinizer05almost... happy18:05
kyakwhat were you previously happy with?18:08
wpwrakkyak: maybe this is the first time he's happy :)19:49
DocScrutinizer05actually, yes21:31
DocScrutinizer05previously I tried this stuff on gta02... err, 21:32
DocScrutinizer05Freud forbids I recall the name21:32
kristianpaullekernel: http://www.radicalsoftware.org/volume2nr5/pdf/VOLUME2NR5_art09.pdf23:37
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