#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2012-05-14

qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu: m1-files. remove mjpg-streamer. useless for m1 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e1dab7601:39
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu: m1/patches/rtems: refresh (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b6b61b104:38
qi-botThe build has FAILED: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building/Nanonote/Ben/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120513-1405 06:25
LunaVoraxHello everyone!18:12
ezdagorOk. Got the new OpenWRT image on the Nanonote. I noticed that the KS7010 driver is included in the Kernel. I see that the iw tools are installed, but I have no ways of using dhclient (or any other dh program) installed. So, How I do connect to a network using the KS7010 card?22:08
whitequarkdoes "ip link" show any wireless cards?23:03
wolfspraulgood morning everybody23:12
wolfspraulcoffee first :-)23:12
wolfspraulkristianpaul: wpwrak : let's take the pcb-diy thread here? feels a little off-topic in #milkymist23:13
wolfspraulfirst I am wondering about (my) goals in this23:13
wolfsprauldefinitely not to kill some time and "do something myself"23:13
wolfspraulI think my main goals are very fast turnaround (is 4 hours a realistic goal?), and low capital needed (let's say < 1000 USD)23:14
wolfspraulnow for the first board, maybe an atben clone? or should it be more ambitious and try something new right away?23:15
wolfspraulI see lots of holes in the atben pcb - are those all vias?23:16
DocScrutinizerquite probably23:24
DocScrutinizerwhat else could they be?23:24
DocScrutinizerI don't exactly understand what you're planning to do23:27
DocScrutinizerbuild a doublesided PCB with vias in <4h, with <1000 USD?23:27
wolfspraulno no23:28
wolfspraulone by one23:28
wolfspraulWerner has a nice pcb-making process that I'd like to learn as well and document23:28
wolfspraulI think it can come in handy in a variety of situations, especially because of the ability to do quick turnarounds23:29
DocScrutinizerthe nicest PCB making process I know is "order it at a professional PCB maker"23:29
wolfspraulI just wanted to define the eventual goals, see what timeline and capital expenses werner thinks are realistic23:29
wolfspraulorder from pcb make is slow and expensive for quick prototypes or experiments23:30
wolfspraulpcb maker23:30
DocScrutinizersounds to me like "building your own primary cells"23:30
wolfspraulI'm not trying to convince you23:30
wolfspraulwhen did you last had one made at a pcb maker/23:31
DocScrutinizererr, 7 years ago?23:31
wolfspraulalright :-)23:31
DocScrutinizerlike 50EUR for a eurocard23:31
whitequarkI second everything DocScrutinizer says23:31
whitequarkI tried to make PCBs for ~half a year, intermittenly23:31
whitequarkbest I could do is some 1-side PCBs with abysmal resolution and a lot of failures23:32
whitequarkit's not a 4-hour cheap and stable process23:32
DocScrutinizerno way23:32
whitequarkwell, yes, it's kinda cheap, chemicals mostly cost nothing23:32
whitequarkand you can do it fast after some training, but results will never be stable23:32
whitequarkand drilling holes is a huge PITA23:32
DocScrutinizerthe cleaning of colthes, room, waste disposal etc though23:33
whitequark(unless you have a CNC machine, in which case just drill out all the excess copper. that's how express PCB making works in industry)23:33
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: well, that can fit in 4 hours if you try hard. not very convenient anyway, and requires a LOT of tries to master23:33
wolfspraulwhitequark: when you order a pcb from a factory, how long do you wait until you get it back?23:34
wolfsprauldo you do that a lot?23:34
DocScrutinizeresp it takes more that 1000 USD for a proper CNC23:34
whitequarkwolfspraul: it depends greatly on where do I live23:34
whitequarkmy favorite fab makes a PCB next day and immediately sends it23:34
DocScrutinizeriirc we did wait like 4 days23:34
DocScrutinizerback when I did pusteflipper23:34
whitequarkall for $25 or so per 10 pty23:34
whitequarkbut with russian post the turnaround time is 18-25 days23:35
whitequarkmind you, I often need components from digikey too, so I send gerbers to fab and simultaneously buy components23:35
DocScrutinizeryes, you can get them same day, if you're willing to pay for same-day delivery23:35
whitequarkthe digikey -> shipito -> express mail route takes roughly the same time23:36
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: I'm talking about a chinese company23:36
DocScrutinizerI only know about Germany23:36
whitequarkwolfspraul: where do you currently live?23:36
whitequarkoh, then the time will be much less for you23:36
whitequarkmaybe next day23:37
whitequarkI don't know how fast exactly chinese post works23:37
DocScrutinizerhttp://maemo.cloud-7.de/dscf3349.jpg  http://maemo.cloud-7.de/dscf3350.jpg23:37
whitequarkiteadstudio makes 2- and 4-layer pcbs, they're pretty cheap and fast23:37
wolfsprauleven same day probably if I had to23:37
wolfspraulbut anyway we are missing the point. I didn't want to start a coolest nerd of the month who can do the hardest things at home competition or trashtalk.23:38
DocScrutinizerI think we had 5 of those on that eurocard formfactor, and fab cut it up for us, after production23:38
DocScrutinizerso basically 10EUR / PCB23:38
whitequarkwolfspraul: if you just need the work to be done, send it to a fab23:38
whitequarkyou won't do better23:38
wolfspraulI'm going to document and try out werner's process, because I think it can come in very handy. I have enough experience with making pcbs to know that it's valuable :-)23:38
wolfspraulof course that is not the point23:39
whitequarkwhat is?23:39
wolfspraulfast turnaround, for easy tweaking and customization23:40
DocScrutinizerdang, it's been 11 years ago23:40
whitequarkwell, I'm pretty sure that you'll fiddle with it for some months, waste a lot of time and eventually decide it's just easier to send to a fab23:41
whitequarkyour choice :)23:41
wolfspraulso much positive thinking here :-)23:42
whitequarkit's messy, slow, hard and stinky process requiring a lot of skill and not scaling at all23:42
DocScrutinizerjust pure pragmatism23:42
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: btw, did you buy these modules?23:42
DocScrutinizernot yet23:42
whitequarkI'm curious what you'll do with them23:42
DocScrutinizerI bought a lenovo T500 today23:43
ezdagorYep. Shows that "eth0" is a wireless card.23:43
whitequarkezdagor: cool23:43
whitequarkezdagor: try "iw eth0 connect $ESSID"23:43
whitequarkand look to dmesg23:43
whitequarkoh, t500 is somewhat ancient, isn't it?23:43
whitequarkI, personally, like how my samsung rc530 compiles kernel in 1.5 minutes. helps when you tweak something in "Kernel hacking" and the buildsystem suddenly decides it needs to rebuild EVERYTHING.23:45
whitequarkor with building android23:45
DocScrutinizerand en passant managed to help maemo-community-ssu on a path that's manageable for the future, regarding repositories, packaging etc23:45
DocScrutinizeron every huge community foss project, you get those bleeding edge fanboys. You can't stop them from pushing shite like systemd into your project, just for the leetness, but you can give them a playground / sandbox where they won't kill your entire project with their leet new stuff23:47
ezdagor /bin/sh: iw: not found23:48
DocScrutinizerwe built this sandbox today23:48
DocScrutinizerresp we disgned it23:48
whitequarkoh, I see that maemo uses upstart too23:48
whitequarkI like it more and back when I maintained my own embedded distro, it was used as initd23:49
DocScrutinizeryup, though this was an example straight from SHR ;-P23:49
whitequarkyeah, I share your opinion on systemd23:50
DocScrutinizeron maemo it's about worlclock, camera, mediaplayer, and even a complete migration of kernel from ARM to THUMB23:50
DocScrutinizerright now23:50
whitequarkwhat does systemd have to do with instruction set?23:50
DocScrutinizerwe provided a playground for all this now, plus all the stuff to come23:50
whitequarkI always thought it depends on your cpu code, and maybe ABI in some cases23:50
DocScrutinizersystemd was an example unrelated to maemo23:51
DocScrutinizerwe've seen this initV->systemd migration on SHR recently23:51
DocScrutinizerthat's why I took it as an example how things can and will go awry23:52
whitequarkwhat shr is based on? OE?23:52
Action: whitequark removes the bookmark23:52
DocScrutinizerthe funny thing is I triggered that whole "sandbox" thing though I basically never contributed any line of code to maemo-cssu23:54
DocScrutinizerso at least there I finally reached my dream position of a mere system architect23:55
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