#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2012-05-05

wolfspraulwpwrak: hey good evening :-)04:44
wolfspraulI am thinking about doing some home-made PCB experiments like I saw at your place...04:44
wolfspraulneed to pick a use case first though04:45
wpwrakwhee ! :)04:45
wolfspraulin terms of packages, what do you think is the highest density/smallest pitch you would feel comfortable putting on a 1-layer PCB?04:45
wolfspraulobviously say if you take our slx45 fgg484 package, that won't work04:45
wolfspraul0.5mm bga, 484 pins - probably the pitch is too small, and there are also far too many wires to route anywhere04:46
wolfspraulso that's obvious04:46
wolfspraulbut what are the criteria you feel most comfortable with?04:46
wolfspraulqfn/qfp packages? so the wires only come out on the 4 sides?04:46
wpwrakBGA have the problem of pins/balls being inaccessible04:46
wolfsprauland also routing density I would think, no?04:47
wolfspraulyou are working with 1-layer and 2-layer also now?04:47
wpwrakyes, QFN is the hardest i try my hands on. level of difficult depends a bit on the package shape. some have vertical walls and recessed pads. these are a bit difficult to solder.04:47
wpwrak1 and 2 layer04:48
wolfspraulincluding drilling?04:48
wpwrakand yes, BGA may need multilayer. depends a bit on what it does04:48
wpwraksure, with drilling04:48
wolfspraulok, so qfn/qfp probably exchangable in terms of doability in your process04:48
wolfspraulwhat minimum pitch?04:48
wolfspraulhave you tried 0.5mm spacing?04:49
wolfspraulor more like 2mm? :-)04:49
wpwrakbut i can't plate the holes. i stick a little wire through them, but that means i can't have vias under small components04:49
wpwrak0.45 mm QFN04:50
wolfspraulwow04:51
wolfspraulnice04:51
wpwrak(for the little UBB-like board with an atmel on it)04:51
wolfspraulok there is a tqfp spartan-6, slx904:51
wolfspraulmaybe my first goal is that and then see whether I can get parts of milkymist to run on it04:51
wolfspraulbut the idea is (for me) the pcb process :-)04:52
wpwrakthis one: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/uart-20110131.jpg04:52
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/uart-inserted.jpg04:52
wolfspraulthat slx9 has a 0.5mm spacing tqfp package04:52
wpwrakto get started, i'd recommend something with legs. tqfp, ssop, etc.04:53
wpwrakonce have developed an intuition for the soldering, then you can tackle qfn04:54
wolfspraulyou solder by hand or in a reflow oven?04:56
wpwrakfor making the pcb, i cheat a little by letting my mill do all the drilling and cutting. but you can accomplish the same manually. it's just more fun to say "make drill" and off it goes, making those dozens of pesky little holes :)04:57
wpwrakby hand. oven didn't work too well.04:57
wpwrakand i tin the boards first, to make the soldering easier04:57
wpwraktinning = apply flux, then "paint" tiny amounts of solder to just cover the copper04:58
wpwrakthe tin also protects the copper from oxidation04:59
wolfspraulhow do you paint? what solder?05:02
wpwrak"paint" = put a bit of solder on a the copper (preferably some large area), then move the iron such that a large surface/edge of the tip is parallel to the board05:03
wpwrakthe resulting layer should be very thin and with even thickness05:03
wpwraks/on a the copper/on the copper/05:03
wpwraksolder doesn't matter that much. you can use lead-free or 63/37. also 60/40 isn't too bad.05:04
wpwrakwhat's very important is the flux05:05
wpwraki use "water-soluble" flux, which has characteristics between RA and "no clean"05:07
wpwraki find that "no clean" isn't very effective. and it evaporates quickly. and you still have to clean, or risk spurious connections in the 100 kOhm range05:08
wolfspraulok!05:09
wolfspraulyou flatten the solder with an iron05:09
wpwrakRA, on the other hand, does make the tin flow very well. it's also very sticky, so the components don't shift easily (you still have to hold them down when soldering, though). but the board pretty quickly becomes a sticky mess with RA.05:09
wpwrakwith the soldering iron05:10
wpwrakfor cleaning, you need a brush - a toothbrush is probably fine, but there are slightly fancier brushes with hog hair - and alcohol. if you want cleaning to be fun, look for an ultrasonic bath. they're not very expensive.05:14
wpwrakthere is a lot of cleaning: after the tinning, after the soldering of the vias, after the soldering of components, and then after fixes. whenever the boards gets too messy, you want to clean off the flux05:15
whitequark+1000 on ultrasonic bath10:12
whitequarkit's awesome10:12
whitequarkwpwrak: on "painting" (isn't it called "tinning"?) I heard of an interesting method10:13
whitequarkthat boils down to using a spare pan, some water, a bit of citric acid and solder with a very low melting point10:14
whitequarkan SnSbBi alloy I think10:14
whitequarkyou just boil it (pun intended) and place the board in the pan, where the alloy wets the copper (citric acid removes the oxide layer)10:15
whitequarkthen you pick a squeegee and remove excess tin10:16
whitequarkit's very fast, low-temp and gives a nice flat surface10:17
whitequarkof course, it's not Pb-free, but you know what? I won't drop a tear if all joints in the world would become Pb-containing.10:17
wpwrakwhitequark: (tinning) yes, that's the correct name for the process. the "painting" describes the method13:13
wpwrak(boiling lead plus acid bath) i'm not sure if wolfgang is up for that much chemistry ;-)13:13
whitequarkerm, there's no boiling lead13:20
whitequarkit's done in water13:20
whitequarkwith a diluted citric acid solution13:20
whitequarkyou could drink it (if there were no heavy metals in it, of course)13:21
whitequarkI'd say it is somewhat safer than the soldering iron method.13:21
whitequarkthrough yes, it requires a bit of preparation (squeegee, alloy, a spare pan) so maybe it's not for the first time13:21
wpwrakah, the water gets in touch with the board. interesting. haven't heard of that one yet. the "standard" process uses some vile (cold) chemistry.13:26
wolfspraulI had some more questions, but what was it? :-)13:39
wolfspraulah, one was whether you start with a plain FR4 material and then add the copper yourself? or you buy the FR4 already with copper and then etch?13:40
wolfsprauland the other one was whether you ever ran into the need, or found a solution how you can create stable (big) ground and power planes?13:40
wpwrakyou get the board with the copper on it. then you etch away what you don't need13:43
wpwrak(big planes) well, you can use filled areas. with only two layers, whether your ground plane will be very contiguous depends a bit on the routing13:43
wpwrakand yes, i did run into the need with ben-wpan :) well, they're bit in relation to the size of the board, not in absolute terms13:44
wolfspraulfilled areas?13:45
wpwrakto exercise the whole workflow, you may want to try something very simple. e.g., an MCU with a button and 1-2 LEDs. hook it up for programming to a Ben.13:45
wolfspraulcould you make the bottom side a ground or power plane?13:46
wolfspraulyou definitely cannot have a separate ground and power plane, and then still have a third one for the signal carrying wires13:46
wpwrakyou can tell kicad that it should copper-fill an area (delimited by a non-self-intersecting polygon, optionally with holes). it will then leave room around traces but leave copper in the rest of the area13:46
wpwrakif you have an UBB at hand, you'll see that you can make a ground plane :)13:47
wpwrakor look at atben or atusb. the bottom is mostly ground13:47
wolfspraulyou just used the entire bottom side as gnd plan there?13:48
wpwraki tell kicad to use more or less all of the bottom for ground. then it figures out what to do13:48
wolfspraulyou say "with copper on it" - on both sides?13:48
wolfspraulwhich fr4 thicknesses have you worked with? and which copper thickness?13:49
wpwrake.g., it may not be able to connect all the things to ground, if there are other traces in the way. you usually need a few tries with routing changes until you get the ground where you want it13:49
wpwrakcopper on both sides. i think the standard is "1 oz" (per square foot or such)13:50
wpwraki used 1.6 mm, 0.8 mm, and 0.4 mm FR413:50
wpwrak0.4 mm is fragile. only for things that need to be super-thin and have zero mechanical stress.13:51
wpwrakubb, atben, and atusb are 0.8 mm13:51
wpwraklabsw is 1.6 mm (larger board, heavier components)13:51
wpwrak1.6 mm is the "standard" thickness for DIY13:52
wolfspraulgot it13:53
wpwrak0.8 mm is friendlier for drilling. only half as far to go. you'll break fewer drill bits ;-)13:55
wolfsprauljust out of curiosity. if you ever wanted to make a 3 or 4-layer pcb, could you just glue 2 thin ones together?13:55
wpwraki would go to a pcb house :)13:55
wpwrakor figure out a way to reduce this to a regular 2 layer problem. maybe stack two boards13:56
wpwrakor use patch wires ;-)13:56
wolfspraulsure, I was just wondering whether you ever thought about stacking pcbs...13:56
wolfspraulI never walked through all the manufacturing steps of a high-end pcb, neither in reading nor an actual factory visit13:57
wolfspraultoo bad13:57
wpwrakthought yes. the rejected :)13:57
wolfspraulyeah, of course. the idea is to find a solution with a simple pcb, not to compete with a pcb factory13:58
wpwraki once looked up the industrial process for multilayer. a bit scary. needs high precision and a lot of steps.13:58
wpwrakhave you seen this one yet ? http://www.almesberger.net/misc/led-toy/ledtoy-building-0pre9.pdf14:02
wpwrakthis is a description of the all-manual process i used some six years ago14:03
wpwraknowadays, i've automated a few things. and i added a few things (tinning, use of filled areas, etc.)14:03
wpwrakand of course i've changed the etching chemistry :) that ferric chloride is messy14:16
wpwrakHCl + H2O2 is much nicer to handle. the only drawback is that you have to be careful about chloride escaping (and eating any metals it can find)14:19
whitequarkwolfspraul: I'm curious, for what do you need manual etching? curiousity?14:41
wolfspraulto make pcbs? is that what you mean?15:15
wolfspraulyou mean whether there are other ways to pattern the copper than via etching?15:16
DocScrutinizeryummy, H2O2 and HCl. only some Acetone missing15:39
wpwrakyou can use that for wiping the toner off the PCB :)15:40
wpwrak(paint thinner will do too, though)15:40
DocScrutinizer:nod:15:40
DocScrutinizerAPEX brings fun to your weekend15:40
DocScrutinizerdevil's granny15:41
DocScrutinizerdang, now this channel moved all up to top of echelon's surveillance list15:42
wpwrakAPEX ? 15:43
DocScrutinizer~wiki apex15:43
infobotAt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{wiktionarypar|apex}} 'Apex' (Latin for "top, peak, summit") may refer to: * Apex (mollusc), the tip of the spire of the shell of a gastropod * Apex is the Apical meristem or its remnant on a flower * Apex is the anterior corner of a butterfly's wing, described in Glossary of entomology terms * Apex of the heart, the lowest superficial part of the heart * Apex of the tongue, the tip of ...15:43
DocScrutinizertsss15:43
DocScrutinizerAcetone PeroXide15:44
wpwraknothing to see there15:44
wpwrakaah, good old TATP :)15:44
DocScrutinizerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide15:45
wpwraki should try to make some. there's a very annoying dog in the neighbourhood that i wouldn't mind blasting out of its miserable existence ...15:48
wpwrakhehe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide#Accidental_byproduct15:50
wpwrakif you mix chemical waste of potent ingredients, you deserve whatever you get ;-)15:51
DocScrutinizeraaah >>adding a soluble copper(II) compound.<< for a measure to avoid TATP by-products in industry. Your etching might be safe ;-)15:56
DocScrutinizerfun bit: MDMA synthesis has potential to create TATP as byproduct ;-P15:59
DocScrutinizerthe German slang "das zeug knallt" gets a very interesting new meaning16:01
DocScrutinizerooh >>nickname "Mother of Satan"<< - not devil's grandma like I thought16:04
GNUtoo-desktophi kristianpaul 16:04
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: anyway, german wikipedia > english, as usual. See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex16:06
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: hm, interesting. I always notice that english wiki >> russian16:07
DocScrutinizer>>Apex oder APEX steht als Abkürzung für:16:07
DocScrutinizerAcetonperoxid, Explosivstoff<<16:07
GNUtoo-desktopDocScrutinizer, german wikipedia seem to have more on free software for GSM protocols such as openBSC for instance16:07
whitequarkmaybe I really should finally learn Deutsch16:07
GNUtoo-desktopwhat's the correct channel for getting help on things like: "does someone know how to tell if a PIC is dead or not, I tried that: https://sites.google.com/site/thehighspark/arduino-pic18f and it always returns FF FF etc....after reading"16:09
whitequarkwhat16:09
whitequarkpic18f isn't avr16:10
GNUtoo-desktopI've both16:10
whitequarkah, programmer. I should have read the link 16:10
GNUtoo-desktopI want to program pic18f2550 from arduino16:10
whitequarkwell, not working properly is the normal state of pics16:10
whitequarkenjoy your misery16:10
GNUtoo-desktopyes that's what I was told, I already tried to make it works during ages16:11
GNUtoo-desktopand I abandoned16:11
GNUtoo-desktopbut here I found this new arduino-based programmer and I wanted to give a try16:11
whitequarktry electronics.stackexchange.com16:11
whitequark(if you've already tried replacing chips16:11
whitequark)16:11
GNUtoo-desktopor maybe I should try ##electronics then16:11
GNUtoo-desktopno, I've only one chip16:11
whitequarkthen it's probably just dead, or locked16:12
GNUtoo-desktopok16:12
GNUtoo-desktopthen I killed it before while trying to program it like one year ago16:12
whitequarkwpwrak can tell you a LOT about spurious locking :)16:12
DocScrutinizerhaha >> Bei mangelnder Kühlung entsteht bei der Reaktion mit Salzsäure unter Kochen das Tränengas Chloraceton.<<16:12
whitequarkbesides which, pics aren't even nearly as resilient as avrs16:12
whitequarkGNUtoo-desktop: you connected 12V to MCLR, didn't you?16:13
whitequarkif I recall it correctly, PICs require HV-programming16:13
GNUtoo-desktopwhitequark, no, but there is low voltage programming nowadays16:14
whitequarkok16:14
GNUtoo-desktopbut maybe I activated the 12V once and cannot go back to 5V?16:14
whitequarkthen no idea, I only us.. fucked with HV programming16:14
whitequarkit was a huge PITA16:14
whitequarksome bastard said that PICs are better for embedded developing, somewhere back in 200616:15
whitequarkthat was before arduinos and popularity of them across laymen16:15
whitequarkgrr16:15
GNUtoo-desktopah the eev blog16:15
whitequarkeev blog?16:15
GNUtoo-desktopyes he even hates gcc16:15
GNUtoo-desktophttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBftApUQ8QI16:16
whitequarkin 2006 I didn't know enough english to read blogs :)16:16
GNUtoo-desktopok16:16
whitequarkso it was a russian bastard16:16
GNUtoo-desktopok16:16
GNUtoo-desktoppersonally I buoght the pic for the pinguino16:16
GNUtoo-desktopbecause it was usb,faster than arduino etc...16:17
GNUtoo-desktop*native usb16:17
whitequarkif you want usb and don't want to hunt for atusb's, listen to my advice: buy an STM32 series chip16:17
GNUtoo-desktopok16:17
whitequarkit's a Cortex-M3 ARM and it has an experience which is really close to AVRs16:17
GNUtoo-desktopthat's even supported by nuttx16:17
whitequarkit has very similar peripherals (but more of them), significantly more orthogonal registers (due to 32-bit addresses), some more interesting stuff like bitbanding areas16:18
whitequarkit is 3V3-powered but 5V-tolerant16:19
whitequarkbut I doubt that 3V3 is a problem for anyone these days. even some arduinos are 3V-powered16:19
whitequarkalso, li-ion-compatible: works at least from 2.7V to 3.6V16:19
whitequarkbest of all16:19
whitequarkthey are significantly faster than AVRs (hardware multiplier for example, or 1-cycle 32-bit memory fetch), cheaper, and eat significantly less current16:20
whitequarkan STM32 on low-freq oscillator like 32.767K can perform something useful and consume something like 0.5mA16:21
whitequarkideal for battery- or even solar-powered designs16:21
GNUtoo-desktopwow16:21
whitequarkexactly16:21
GNUtoo-desktopabout battery, what about ti launchpad?16:21
whitequarkI seen a video (on a local blog) where an STM32V (even a more low-power version) is powered from an apple16:21
whitequarkand drives a LCD16:21
whitequarkfrom a damned _apple_. like, a fruit. with zinc and copper electrodes in16:22
GNUtoo-desktoplaunchpad have integrated gdb support.....16:22
whitequarkfor hours.16:22
GNUtoo-desktopok16:22
GNUtoo-desktopwow16:22
whitequarkSTM32 has gdb in-circuit debugger too16:22
GNUtoo-desktopwow16:22
whitequarkI added support for it16:22
GNUtoo-desktopnice16:22
whitequarkgithub.com/texane/stlink16:22
GNUtoo-desktopok16:22
GNUtoo-desktopstm32 is not as low cost as ti launchpad?16:23
whitequarkin a very modest stm32 you get 8K ram, 128K rom, fast ARMv7 fully 32-bit core, 3x of peripherals compared to a typical atmega, which can also often be remapped to different ports16:23
whitequarkhmm16:24
whitequarkthe dev-board with a chip I described above and an in-circuit debugger (which you can use for your own circuits too) costs ~$1016:24
whitequarkit's also breadboard-friendly. just plug in and go16:24
GNUtoo-desktopok so it's low enough16:24
whitequarkSTM32VLDISCOVERY16:24
whitequarklaunchpad is msp43016:24
GNUtoo-desktopfor instance for doing remote temperature sensors I wonder what's best16:25
whitequarkmsp430 is a very old and quite crappy architecture. I think it dates back to 6502 or something like that16:25
GNUtoo-desktopmaybe the bluecore even with the modified firmware16:25
GNUtoo-desktopok16:25
whitequarkGNUtoo-desktop: use STM32V, a low-power low-voltage version16:25
GNUtoo-desktopso not worth for msp43016:25
whitequarkthere's even one with integrated radio transceiver16:25
whitequark2.4g16:25
whitequarkjust add two caps and go16:25
GNUtoo-desktopwow16:25
whitequarkyes16:25
whitequarklet me find it16:26
GNUtoo-desktopok16:26
GNUtoo-desktopis there some good kit at sparkfun?16:26
GNUtoo-desktopthe problem is also  that I already have an arduino16:26
GNUtoo-desktopbut I don't like the arduino language, so I program it in avr-libc of course16:26
whitequarkuh, sparkfun. I don't know much of it 'cause they only ship to Russia with fedex and it's insanely expensive. apart from that, they allow no more than $70 of declared value.16:27
whitequarkgiven that shipping is ~$70 too, it's barely effective.16:27
whitequarkstm32's also have "device" and "otg" mode USB, which means you can plug in peripherals16:29
GNUtoo-desktopok16:30
GNUtoo-desktopyes I think it also does host16:30
whitequarkcheck STM32W16:30
whitequarkseries16:30
whitequarkconsumes 0.25mA/MHz16:30
GNUtoo-desktopif I remember well what I saw on nuttx mailing list16:30
whitequarkand has 1.25DMIPS/MHz :D16:30
whitequarkhttp://www.st.com/internet/mcu/product/245419.jsp16:31
GNUtoo-desktophttp://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=stm32&what=products16:31
whitequarkI guess they have a zigbee stack handy for this chip16:31
GNUtoo-desktopthat's all they have16:31
whitequarkyeah, 802.15.416:32
GNUtoo-desktopyes I saw, 16:32
GNUtoo-desktopbut I wonder if there is bluetooth16:32
whitequarkthe chip is pretty new and I think that sparkfun doesn't have boards (yet?)16:32
GNUtoo-desktopok16:32
whitequarker, digikey has one for $35016:32
GNUtoo-desktopouch16:32
whitequarkthis is a bit too much for my taste16:32
GNUtoo-desktopme too16:32
GNUtoo-desktopless than 50E is the maximum16:33
whitequarkhm16:33
GNUtoo-desktop*about16:33
DocScrutinizersounds quite nice anyway16:33
whitequarkif I'd have this task, I would copy the relevant part of layout, send it to a pcb fab and have it manufactured for ~$2016:33
whitequarkthen just buy the chip, it's ~$316:34
whitequarkand solder it16:34
DocScrutinizerYOU16:34
whitequarkhuh?16:34
DocScrutinizernot joe average though :-)16:34
whitequarkI guess GNUtoo isn't an joe average too :)16:34
DocScrutinizerwho knows :-D16:34
GNUtoo-desktopdepends, I had a hard time with the pic16:35
GNUtoo-desktopand I don't want to solder too small stuff16:35
DocScrutinizersee?16:35
GNUtoo-desktopbut a big enough thing is ok16:35
whitequarkhuh, well it kind of oversatisfies the definition of "small"16:35
whitequark4x4mm16:35
whitequarkor so16:35
whitequarkand 48 pads16:35
DocScrutinizeryay16:35
whitequarkit's pretty easy in fact16:35
whitequarkyou just slap some paste, then slap the chip over it and heat16:36
DocScrutinizeryup16:36
GNUtoo-desktopfor instance the 28pin PDIP SOIC pic is ok16:36
DocScrutinizerif you got a nice hot-air reflow 16:36
whitequarkGNUtoo-desktop: ah, another fact: there are no STM32's in DIP16:36
whitequarkactually, there's just one ARM ever in DIP and it sucks16:37
whitequarkbut I'd say that TQFPs are almost as easy when you overcome initial fear of "tiny parts"16:37
GNUtoo-desktopbut for instance the one used in the tricorder is not ok16:37
whitequarktricorder?16:37
DocScrutinizerDIP is kinda out16:37
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: yeah, I'm waiting until it finally dies and everyone will understand that TQFP-is-not-hard-at-all16:38
DocScrutinizerthough I still love my AT89C2051 design16:38
GNUtoo-desktophttp://www.tricorderproject.org/tricorder-mark2.html16:38
whitequarknot going to happen in 50 yrs through16:38
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: ewww, 805116:38
whitequarkGNUtoo-desktop: that's a TQFP or LQFP, I couldn't quite recognize pitch from the photo16:38
DocScrutinizerwell, it's just another assembler16:38
GNUtoo-desktophttp://www.tricorderproject.org/tricorder_pictures/mark2/tricorder_mk2_motherboard2.jpg16:39
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: well, even 8051 is better than PIC16:39
whitequarklooks like tqfp-144 16:39
DocScrutinizernice DIP, with IO that drive LED etc directly (up to 20mA iirc)16:39
viricwhat is tqfp?16:39
whitequarkThin Quad Flat Package16:39
whitequarka form of chip cases16:39
whitequark*form-factor16:40
viricah16:40
whitequarkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TQFP16:40
whitequarka Ruby guy (@headius, lead of jruby project actually) once asked something about PICs and I accidentally slipped into an uncontrollable rage16:41
whitequarkso there's one PIC user less in this world16:41
whitequarkeach day spent fighting with PICs will be remembered by our children16:41
viricyou killed him?16:41
whitequarkno16:42
whitequarkbut he was reading it for half a hour or so16:42
whitequarkand kind of decided not to try anything that can cause such a psychological damage16:42
GNUtoo-desktoplol qualcomm should also be blacklisted along with pics16:43
whitequarkseriously, MEMORY BANKS16:43
whitequarkit's fucking 2012 (and it was fucking 2006 when I first encountered them)16:43
whitequarkwhere spare SRAM is poured across registers16:43
whitequarkand PORTx registers aren't safe to |=16:43
GNUtoo-desktopouch16:43
whitequarkYES.16:43
whitequarknot to mention it works on 20mhz max16:44
whitequarkand it takes FOUR cycles to execute a command16:44
whitequarkand it has 12-bit-wide instruction data bus16:44
whitequarkso the firmware is like 0xfff 0xfff 0xfff16:44
GNUtoo-desktoplol ouch16:45
whitequarkI guess its developer was extremely sex-deprived or something like that, and so this beast of sublimation was born16:45
whitequarkno idea how to explain this other ways16:45
GNUtoo-desktoppatents?16:45
GNUtoo-desktoplike to avoid patents?16:45
whitequarkmemory banks mean that you have two bits that control which of four banks is selected16:45
whitequarkand some registers and SRAM cells are in all banks16:46
whitequarksome are in only one16:46
whitequarkand you gotta use two instructions to switch to a particular bank16:46
whitequarkTWO.16:46
whitequarkso you need to reorder your code carefully to avoid unnecessary switches which eat your cpu time and program storage (it's also quite small)16:46
whitequarkhence, no gcc and no proper C compiler at all (except for their proprietary crap which still produces bad code because you just cannot do anything good with this braindead architecture)16:47
GNUtoo-desktopok16:47
whitequarksdcc is... tolerable16:47
GNUtoo-desktopahh that's why there is no GCC and only SDCC16:47
whitequarkif you can call putting a hand into a hive "tolerable", that is16:47
whitequarkit's "tolerable" like "maybe you won't be dead in 8 hours but will be in 12"16:48
GNUtoo-desktoplol16:48
whitequarkseriously, I'd rather put my hand into a hive.16:48
whitequarkI once read a very nice tale about a programmer (in Russian, unfortunately)16:48
GNUtoo-desktoplike theses people that do extremly dangerous stuff on TV to become famous?16:48
whitequarkit was about a programmer who lost his mind trying to shrink his program by one byte16:49
GNUtoo-desktopouch16:49
GNUtoo-desktoppersonally I started loosing my mind with the htc dream16:49
whitequarkit wasn't (supposedly) real, just a nice piece of fictional writing16:49
GNUtoo-desktopok16:49
whitequarkor maybe it was, I dunno, but the author writes really good16:49
whitequarkso, I recently re-encountered it16:49
GNUtoo-desktopok16:49
whitequarkand from numerous references it was obvious he was trying to code for PIC16:50
GNUtoo-desktopthe effect of losing my mind is nervousness16:50
whitequarkYES IT IS LIKE SO'16:50
GNUtoo-desktopok lol16:50
whitequarkI think I had exactly the same PIC he had, at least it was definitely the same core and probably series16:50
GNUtoo-desktopok16:50
whitequarkargh now I have an urge to kill someone.16:50
GNUtoo-desktopcan you try on steeve balmer?16:51
whitequarksteve ballmer is a saint compared to developer who invented pic16:51
GNUtoo-desktopok16:51
whitequarkat least he doesn't force people to be tortured16:51
whitequarkwell he does16:51
GNUtoo-desktoplol16:51
whitequarkbut pics are worse than that. it's like tearing your own nails with red-hot tweezers and then eating them16:52
whitequarkfor a week16:52
whitequarkone nail a day16:52
GNUtoo-desktopok16:52
whitequarkI hope I convinced you not to use PICs :)16:52
GNUtoo-desktopso I think I won't try to use the pic I have nor buy a newer one even if it's just a jump to the electronic shop16:53
GNUtoo-desktopyes I've already enough nervousness issues.....16:53
Action: GNUtoo-desktop just undid his pic circuit on his breadboard16:53
whitequarkif you want to feel what I think, just imagine that everything above was said with voice and style of Freeman's Mind 16:59
whitequarkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ayeCckhGJ-c#t=443s16:59
GNUtoo-desktopmaybe you should go kill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBftApUQ8QI who promotes PICs17:01
whitequarkyeah, I'll just get my submachine gun17:02
kristianpaulhola GNUtoo-desktop 17:35
GNUtoo-netbookhi17:35
GNUtoo-netbookI just wanted to retry with the pic but whitequark convinced me not to (I found a pic programmer made from an arduino...)17:36
GNUtoo-netbookbeside I do not like the integration of most programmer done with arduino, because they are not compatible with the standard flashing tools like the picprog,avrdude or flashrom17:39
GNUtoo-netbookthat made me make my own one for flashing BIOS/Coreboot in avr-libc(and it even appeared on hackaday)17:39
GNUtoo-netbook(http://hackaday.com/2012/05/04/arduino-uno-bios-flasher/)17:40
GNUtoo-netbookkristianpaul, are you still doing the GPS thing?17:40
kristianpaulyes17:41
GNUtoo-netbookkristianpaul, 2) pinguino IRC channel seem to have disapeared....17:41
GNUtoo-netbookok17:41
GNUtoo-netbookkristianpaul, I'm also into basebands now17:41
kristianpaulperhaps, but ML is more active17:41
GNUtoo-netbookok17:41
kristianpaulare coding a baseband? for wich app?17:42
GNUtoo-netbook(nuttx port to osmocombb phones)17:42
kristianpaulah yes,17:43
kristianpaulthat will cool17:43
GNUtoo-netbookwe got a good part upstream 17:43
kristianpauldo you have a gui now?17:44
GNUtoo-netbooknot yet17:45
GNUtoo-netbookbut we have CLI and poweroff and SPI17:45
GNUtoo-netbookhttp://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/nuttx-bb/drivers17:46
GNUtoo-netbookwe used initial code tough17:48
GNUtoo-netbookwhat;s the status of your GPS project?17:51
kristianpaulArtyom from gnss-sdr.ru had get to work tracking using a maxim based board17:52
kristianpaulright now there are two plans,17:53
kristianpaul1) Adapt board from gnss-sdr.ru to milkymist R317:53
kristianpaul2). Port osgps (gpsrcv.c) to a baremetal milkymist app orr rtems, whatever got working first17:53
GNUtoo-netbookok17:54
kristianpaulhaving those thigns done your got a full hardware and software gps receiver17:54
GNUtoo-netbookwow17:54
kristianpauldo you want to help us to port osgps?17:54
kristianpaulis mostl plubling and some fixes to make it work with out libc :) (if baremetal way is choosen)17:55
kristianpaulmost/mostly17:55
GNUtoo-netbookhmmm17:55
GNUtoo-netbookI am ultra busy.....17:56
kristianpaulright now i'm learning a bit kicad to make board adaptation17:56
kristianpaulsure i'm kinda aware, but i cant hold my self and ask you help17:56
kristianpaulsince you mentioned baseband workds17:56
GNUtoo-netbookok17:56
GNUtoo-netbookI'll look after eating17:57
kristianpauls/workds/words17:57
kristianpaulabout osgps, we dont need warm-start suport right now, so basically this is the major modification need to be done17:59
GNUtoo-netbookok18:00
whitequarkoh, I have a question about gps18:01
whitequarkI have a smartphone with SiRF GPS chip, and sometimes it takes quite a long time to lock onto the signal in spite of clear sky view18:01
whitequarkI read that GPS baseband needs to download almanac and ephemerides, which are transmitted with 300 baud or something like that18:02
whitequarkam I right that it's what it does?18:02
kristianpaulyes18:02
whitequarkwhere is it generally stored?18:02
kristianpaulthat could take up to 30minutes18:03
whitequarkdoes the chip have a ROM/flash?18:03
kristianpaulin your baseband chip :)18:03
kristianpaulof course18:03
whitequarkwell, GSM baseband for example doesn't have its own memory here18:03
whitequarkit stores calibration data on the main flash via a RPC interface to the kernel18:03
whitequarkand RIL18:03
kristianpaulif it support warmstart is should have embeded some flash yes18:03
whitequarkok18:04
kristianpauli havent dig about all current avaliable gps receivers18:04
kristianpaulbut basically thats a SoC18:04
kristianpaulembeded with some IP cores perhaps fir fancy FFT, dont know18:04
kristianpaulbut if it speaks SiRF or NMEA is like a GSM Modem speaking AT18:05
GNUtoo-netbooklet me read18:06
kristianpaulwhitequark: btw agps could provide some speedup on this18:06
kristianpauli havent read in depth18:06
kristianpaulguess is simlar to RRLP18:07
whitequarkkristianpaul: I tried sending AGPS update command18:08
whitequarkno effect actually18:08
GNUtoo-netbookSIRF is supported by gpsd18:08
whitequarkah, the gps baseband is embedded to gsm baseband actually18:08
whitequarkthat's why, I understand it now18:08
kristianpaulit could yes18:08
GNUtoo-netbookwhat;s the soc? qualcomm?18:09
kristianpaulah yours is a gsm + gps combo?18:09
whitequarkkristianpaul: yeah, according to lvl3 servicemanual18:09
kristianpaulinteresting you can rum agps updates,18:10
kristianpaulthre is a debug command about correlation or counters?18:10
whitequarkkristianpaul: no idea, I just clicked a button in GPSTest app :)18:10
whitequarkI can give you shell18:10
kristianpaulahh18:10
kristianpaulk18:10
whitequarkGNUtoo-netbook: IIRC yes18:11
GNUtoo-desktopok what's the phone?18:11
whitequarkSGS218:11
GNUtoo-desktopok18:11
GNUtoo-desktopah so samsung protocol18:11
GNUtoo-desktopwhitequark, 2 news on SGS2: replicant developer paulk will have an SGS218:12
GNUtoo-desktopwhitequark, shared memory is probably over dual port ram18:12
whitequarkGNUtoo-desktop: well it was pretty obvious about dualport ram18:12
whitequarkwhat other options do you have?18:13
GNUtoo-desktopHSI18:13
GNUtoo-desktopthat's what there is on nexus prime18:13
whitequarkHigh-Speed Interconnect?18:13
GNUtoo-desktophigh speed serial18:13
whitequark(just guessing)18:13
whitequarkah18:13
whitequarkso it's not quite RAM, right?18:13
GNUtoo-desktopindeed18:13
GNUtoo-desktopthat's omap's high speed serial port18:13
whitequarkewww, ti socs18:14
whitequarkthrough omaps may be better than the stuff I've seen.18:14
GNUtoo-desktopeven some versions of SGS2 have TI soc18:14
whitequarkI'm not sure that exynos is significantly better anyway. Docs are definitely lacking18:15
GNUtoo-desktopwe have leaked docs for s5pc110 at least18:17
GNUtoo-desktop+samsung is a big linux kenrel contributor18:17
GNUtoo-desktopbut for instance the big problem in the samsung soc version is the CODEC18:18
whitequarknah, I wasn't talking about their openness or such. I was talking about general quality of resources, that is, I'm pretty sure that their internal ones are shitty too18:18
whitequarkit seems to be a general problem with this insane race18:18
GNUtoo-desktopbut in another hand the tizen project has a clean implementation of SGS2 CODEC18:19
whitequarkcan't it be merged?18:19
GNUtoo-desktopit can18:19
whitequarknice18:19
whitequarkany news on Lima?18:19
GNUtoo-desktopjust that Alex[sp3dev] just found out the other day18:20
GNUtoo-desktop(he's doing the GNU/Linux port on SGS2)18:20
whitequarkthat's pretty exciting. the phone is barely useful without proper acceleration due to battery drainage18:20
GNUtoo-desktopah?18:20
whitequark[Lima is pretty exciting]18:20
GNUtoo-desktopah was for battery drainage18:20
GNUtoo-desktopyes18:20
whitequarkwell, Android <4 is long-term irrelevant18:21
GNUtoo-desktopthere is also qualcomm 3d comming, but I'm waiting for TI 3d18:21
whitequarkI'm already on ICS and it's the first sensible version of android18:21
whitequark2.x feels like windows 9818:21
GNUtoo-desktopah ok18:21
GNUtoo-desktopI never tried ICS18:21
whitequarktry it; you'll remember 2.x as a horrible nightmare18:22
GNUtoo-desktopkristianpaul, what were the tasks with osgps and what's the required hardware?18:22
GNUtoo-desktopwhitequark, I'm in a worsenightmare: gta0218:22
GNUtoo-desktopI tried during hours to make GPRS work the other day18:22
whitequarkoh18:22
GNUtoo-desktopgta04 doesn't work for me since I have a3 version18:22
kristianpaulGNUtoo-desktop: gp2021 is implemented on hardware as HDL18:22
whitequarkwell, I can understand mucking with gta02 due to freedom issues and such, but as a general phone it's unusable imo18:23
GNUtoo-desktopwhich requires an alsa forwarder to be done18:23
kristianpaulGNUtoo-desktop: osgps bases its work from it, basically it is memory maped18:23
GNUtoo-desktopwhitequark, part of it is usable part of it is not18:23
kristianpaulGNUtoo-desktop: dont bother fore required hardware for now,18:23
GNUtoo-desktopfor instance GPRS is unusable18:23
kristianpaulyou just need qemu for milkymist/lm3218:23
GNUtoo-desktopok18:23
GNUtoo-desktopbbs18:23
kristianpaulmilkymist.org/wiki have the info18:23
kristianpauldespite having a not ending loop reading gp2021 register, osgps process cold start and display data on screen about position18:24
kristianpauldopler18:24
kristianpauland satellites on sky18:25
Aylaxwhitequark: it's that good?18:30
GNUtoo-desktopok18:39
GNUtoo-desktophi DocScrutinizer 18:47
GNUtoo-desktopthe openmoko debug board has an FTDI chip18:48
GNUtoo-desktopit's supported too by flashrom for flashing SPI chips18:48
GNUtoo-desktopbut no informations on the wiring....18:48
wpwrakGNUtoo-desktop: for in-circuit programming, then Ben is remarkably useful. i use it for chips from the 8051, AVR, and PIC families18:52
kristianpaulwpwrak: PIC?18:54
kristianpauland you dont toll us !!18:54
DocScrutinizerHSI is *not* shared RAM, and it's also not a TI thing18:58
GNUtoo-desktopDocScrutinizer, indeed18:59
GNUtoo-desktopah it's not a TI thing?18:59
GNUtoo-desktopusually silicon vendor pick some "IP" blocks, assemble them and do a chip19:00
GNUtoo-desktopso maybe that's because of that that it's not a TI thing19:01
DocScrutinizerSTE is using HSI as well19:01
DocScrutinizerThot CAIF is usually over HSI19:02
DocScrutinizerThor*19:02
DocScrutinizerit's a interface just like I2C or SPI19:02
DocScrutinizerjust incredibly hard to find specs for it19:02
GNUtoo-desktopok19:02
DocScrutinizerMISI-HSI ???19:03
DocScrutinizersomething like that19:03
DocScrutinizerMIPI-HSI19:04
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.mipi.org/specifications/high-speed-synchronous-serial-interface-hsi19:04
GNUtoo-desktopah ok19:04
GNUtoo-desktopthanks a lot19:04
GNUtoo-desktopyes I ddg it and found that19:04
GNUtoo-desktopSpecifications are available to MIPI members only. For more information on joining MIPI, please go to Join MIPI.19:04
GNUtoo-desktophmmm19:04
wpwrakkristianpaul: aye, PIC :) the architecture is evil but you get to make all sorts of PIG jokes :)19:05
DocScrutinizeryeah, I of course have seen the datasheet19:06
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.mail-archive.com/linux-omap@vger.kernel.org/msg18506.html19:13
GNUtoo-desktopyes I'm aware of that patch19:14
DocScrutinizernfc what's this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/44735645/72/MIPI-HSI-INTERFACE-CONTROLLER19:15
DocScrutinizerI have no facebook account19:15
DocScrutinizeranyway HSI is a 4wire bidir interface, with up to (iirc) 200Mb/s19:16
DocScrutinizercurrent version is 1.2, though a lot of devices only support 1.0.119:16
GNUtoo-desktopok19:16
DocScrutinizerit's genuinely supporting logical channels19:18
DocScrutinizeriirc up to 819:18
DocScrutinizersome very tricky stuff with long and short addresses in data package headers19:19
GNUtoo-desktopok19:19
DocScrutinizeryou definitely don't want to touch internals if you don't have to and there'S any driver with API19:20
GNUtoo-desktopok19:20
DocScrutinizer(my daily business btw)19:21
kristianpaulGNUtoo-desktop: task basically port and make its gui, but disable (ifdef) warm start19:21
kristianpaulmake it guis to work*19:21
GNUtoo-desktopok so it doens't even require gps hardware19:22
kristianpaulnope19:22
kristianpaulneither gps hardware or milkymist it self19:22
GNUtoo-desktopok19:22
GNUtoo-desktopI'll contact you if I've the time to work on it 19:23
DocScrutinizeraaaah, some detail about hsi that now hits my mind:19:23
DocScrutinizer2 wires. one is either 1 or 0 depending on next byte to transmit. the other one will toggle each time a second 0 (or 1) has to be transmitted19:24
GNUtoo-desktopok19:25
GNUtoo-desktopI guess that's for error correction 19:25
DocScrutinizerthat's for sync transmission of serial data, with embedded clock and minimized transitions on lines (there will a transition on only one of both lines for each bit transmitted)19:26
GNUtoo-desktopok19:27
DocScrutinizerlet's call the lines A and B, and the byte to transmit is 01110010:  the edge is on line like that:  0A 1A 1B 1B 0A 0B 1A 0A19:28
DocScrutinizerwhere leading 0/1 means bit to transmit, NOT level on lines A/B19:29
DocScrutinizerfor A however it actually means level on line as well, while 0B and 1B both only mean there's a transition on B, either low->high or high->low19:30
DocScrutinizerbadically A is a serial UART output, while B is the UART bit clock XOR A19:32
DocScrutinizerbasically*19:32
DocScrutinizeryou don't need to know any of that19:34
DocScrutinizerway more interesting is the configurble header and dataword length19:35
GNUtoo-netbookok19:36
DocScrutinizerI think the hw defines a header 0..3bits for logical channel, plus anything from 8 to 32bits for data per packet19:36
DocScrutinizerand you got dedicated hw for each of the up to 8 logical channels19:37
DocScrutinizer1.2 defines some burst mode iirc19:38
DocScrutinizer"our" (STE) hw doesn't support that 19:39
GNUtoo-netbookok19:39
DocScrutinizeractually claiming I'd work for LTE is a joke. My position is consultant LLSW Datacom19:49
DocScrutinizerLLSW = lowlevel sw19:50
GNUtoo-netbookdatacom?19:54
GNUtoo-netbookdata communication or the name of a company or something else?19:54
DocScrutinizerdata communication aka data protocols, aka monkey for hw interfaces19:56
DocScrutinizerthat's how I had to look into HSI some 3 months ago19:56
GNUtoo-netbookok20:00
DocScrutinizeractually, it's >> Joerg Reisenweber, Consultant Software Design Data Protocols, is Industrie Software GmbH on behalf of ST-Ericsson AT GmbH, Nuremberg <<20:00
GNUtoo-netbookok20:00
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: what's been the name of that gsm-module?21:28
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: MIPS: JZ4740: Correct clock gate bit for DMA controller (jz-3.3) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/bf21f8923:49
--- Sun May 6 201200:00

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