#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2012-05-02

kristianpaulboom !00:15
kristianpauli found this http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_Style_Guide#boom00:15
kristianpaulwolfspraul: I dont see you are concerned or interested to work/support on UI design00:22
kristianpaulI mean nanonote UI is mosrlty comunity effort, milkymist sebastien work, but are you interested on this are?00:22
kristianpaulI mean from the value it could generate on a device00:23
kristianpaulOr what are your general toughts about this topic00:23
kristianpaulno care, and let it grown by it self? :-)00:23
wolfspraulwhy would I not be concerned about the UI of either one? I use them...00:24
kristianpaulI mean, conecting people00:24
wolfspraulbut I'm overwhelmed with coding contributions, indeed00:24
wolfspraulwhat do you want me to do?00:25
kristianpaulnothing :-) just asking your toughts about UI importance for our copyleft hw00:25
wolfspraulgreat interview with bunnie http://blog.makezine.com/2012/04/30/makes-exclusive-interview-with-andrew-bunnie-huang-the-end-of-chumby-new-adventures/00:25
kristianpaulwell, perhaps asking for feedback about UI design for nanonote or milkymist from people you may know from OM times..00:26
wolfspraulof course UI is very important, but I think what we have is not horrible and improving00:26
kristianpaulanyway just a radom tought00:26
kristianpaulsure not horrible and improving (growing) a lot indeed00:26
wolfspraulfor the nanonote, I have to check those latest things from David00:27
wolfspraulI still want a launcher that is simpler, more scriptable. no need to follow some 'sea of icons' philosophy imo00:27
wolfspraulusers are far more flexible than one might think, if there finally is something of quality that is worth learning00:27
wolfspraulwhich is rare, as always in life00:28
kristianpaulsea of icons, got it00:28
wolfspraulchumby no more http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/may/01/san-diegos-chumby-industries-calling-it-quits/00:28
kristianpauli noticed from the interview the non-profit and what lead to that thinking..00:29
wolfspraulthere's a lot of things to learn from chumby, as any great endeavor, good and bad00:29
wolfspraulkristianpaul: so you will attempt to pull together a gps expansion board for m1?00:31
kristianpaulusers are far more flexible, yeah well, most of the first nanonote impresion from people i demo it was doint kbd brutefore to get how it woek00:31
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yes00:31
kristianpaulrecalling, 00:31
wolfspraulwhere will the sources be? we will hook it up to schhist00:32
kristianpauloh let me do a quick import moment00:33
wolfspraulfor the verilog2html, I didn't mean a source code browser00:33
kristianpaulsure i know00:33
wolfspraulI meant a graphical representation of the chip schematics, converted from verilog to drawings00:33
kristianpaulwich kind of drawings?00:34
kristianpaulnetlist, fpga map .. what else..00:35
wolfspraulI had in mind building blocks, like registers, combinational blocks, etc.00:36
wolfspraulno something graphical00:36
wolfspraulprovides for a nice overview of the machine I think00:36
wolfsprauland some tools like I believe synopsys can create such views, I think (that's what I'm trying to find out)00:37
wolfspraulmaybe it's not considered interesting/worthwhile by the pros though, who knows :-)00:37
kristianpauli honestly find hard it to get it usefull some how, with out it provide some interaction00:37
wolfspraulyou mean a drawing of blocks/schematics would not be helpful?00:38
wolfsprauldon't understand00:38
kristianpaulafter covert hdl code to drawings it gets bigs, i mean the data00:38
kristianpauli will surelly 00:39
kristianpaulbut not for all people00:39
wolfspraulhave you seen or used such drawings?00:39
wolfsprauland how did you create them?00:40
wolfspraulmaybe it only makes sense for parts of the SoC, or maybe it's a big one one could zoom into - again: don't know00:40
wolfspraulthat's what I'm trying to find out00:40
kristianpauli just remenber some drawings from altera soc builder when i took some courses at college about vhdl ;)00:40
kristianpaulit was generated froma wizard00:40
kristianpauland allowe me to see  a overview of the soc _and_ also get to the details of every module if i wanted to00:41
kristianpauli not remenber  combinational blocks, guess because was soc centric00:43
kristianpaulbut do remenber the blocks and registers00:43
kristianpaulbut was not just a drawing it self, as it allow me to design soc and even run code00:43
wolfspraulI was thinking of a graphical representation of our current milkymist soc (or parts of it)00:48
wolfspraulI will go through some free sw tools and see whether such a feature hides somewhere00:49
wolfsprauland if not, also ok. then read verilog and think about it :-)00:49
kristianpaulread verilog is a good staring point00:51
kristianpauli recognice the code browser is not the best looking way 00:51
kristianpaulif you replace some stuff from code to blocks and provide a map, but also chance to looks/zoom/down at source code in both verilog and C may look more usefull00:53
kristianpauldata vistualization is an interesting topic anyway ;-D00:53
kristianpaulwpwrak: u there?01:23
kristianpaul.gbr .gto .gbo .gts .gbs from a kicad project should not be commited right?01:24
kristianpaul.gbl .gtl forgot too01:25
wolfspraullooks like gerber files01:25
wolfspraulthe different layers01:25
kristianpaulall the g.. i mentioned?01:26
wolfspraulgto is silkscreen front01:26
wolfspraulgbo silkscreen back01:26
wpwraki think it's pretty much .g* :)01:26
kristianpaulah goo01:27
wolfspraulgbs: soldermask back01:27
wolfspraulgts: soldermask front01:27
wpwrakkristianpaul: for a moment, i tried to see if i remember a .goo ;-)01:30
wpwrakthis lists a few of the layers: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atben/README-PCB01:32
kristianpaul.dsv shall be ignore as well right?01:32
wpwrakthe directory .dsv/ ? yup01:33
kristianpaulahh is a directory..01:33
kristianpauli took that from xue.. as i dint found a .gitignore at ben-wpan ;-)01:34
wpwrakoh, i don't bother with .gitignore :)01:35
kristianpauli knew it :)01:36
kristianpaulgit is all about better practices..01:36
kristianpaulokay what about .bak extension ?01:37
kristianpaulEESchema Schematic File, seems should keep01:37
wpwraki tend to keep a gazillion of local temp files around that i name on the spot. so a shareable gitignore would only know about half the things anyway01:37
wpwrakkeep .bak, but not in the repository :)01:38
wpwrakbesides, the repository IS a backup :)01:38
wpwrak(keep .bak locally. i.e., don't actively kill them)01:38
wpwrak(for they do no harm. but they're usually irrelevant)01:38
kristianpaulyeah, but thats generated by some kicad module right?01:39
kristianpaulwhat about .drl ?01:39
wolfspra1ldrill file01:40
kristianpaulgerber related?01:40
wpwrakdrill file is similar to gerber. the format differs slightly, though01:41
wpwrak(it's called excellon)01:42
kristianpaulso no problem delete it01:42
Action: kristianpaul just deleted also some .dcm and .dck filled by comments01:44
kristianpaulbtw can we currently make a diff between two existent .brd files?01:45
wpwraknot usefully01:46
kristianpaulokay .pos guess is related as well with gerber, mill and smt01:46
wpwrak.pos is component positions01:46
wpwrakyou need that for the SMT machine. it's an output from pcbnew01:47
kristianpaulthat is machine generated it said too01:47
kristianpaulhmm a custom QFN28.emp01:49
kristianpaulthat stay for now i guess01:49
kristianpaulalso all the libs01:49
kristianpaulhmm the .net01:50
kristianpauli dont see that one in atusb..01:50
wpwrakwhat's .emp ?01:51
kristianpaulbecause boom?01:51
wpwrakthe .net is generated01:51
kristianpaul.emp - export of module01:51
kristianpaulaccording to http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Kicad01:51
wpwrakhmm. never saw .emp01:52
wpwrak.sch + .cmp -> .net01:52
wpwrakso keep the .cmp01:53
kristianpaulwhat about .pho ? 01:55
kristianpaulah more gerger01:55
wpwrakyou have a lot of strange files. did you go through all the "create file" options ? :)01:56
kristianpauli'm going to import a project from Artyom svn repo to remove uncesary items and make a gps board for m101:57
wpwrakaah, i see.01:58
wpwrakso he just committed everything in sight01:58
wpwrakunfortunately that's even understandable, given the huge number of files kicad spits out01:59
kristianpaullots of dumb files, just comments01:59
kristianpaulpretty usefull02:00
kristianpauli saw it before never look at it02:00
wpwrakbtw, for canned procedures, you can use this: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/makefiles/Makefile.kicad02:00
kristianpaulprovides all list of material with smd and value02:01
kristianpauli will keep that to help me boom02:01
kristianpaulbtw where is boom repo?02:02
wpwrakit starts here: svn.openmoko.org/trunk/eda/boom/02:03
kristianpaulnot qi02:04
kristianpauli was lost looking there02:04
wpwrakthe continuation on qi-hw in eda-tools/boom/02:04
wpwrakand the rewrite is in eda-tools/b2/  but that doesn't do anything useful yet02:05
kristianpaulcause svn.o.o seems down?02:05
wolfspraulyeah we need to move those sources02:05
wolfspraulI'm sure werner has local copies02:05
wpwrakfor a real-life use case of the old boom, see ben-wpan/bom/02:05
wpwrakhmm. still down ? that's bad02:06
kristianpauland not in archive.org..02:08
wolfspraulwe have to move over02:09
wolfspraulI thought werner had moved mostly everything, maybe that's the last piece remaining? hopefully... :-)02:09
kristianpaulah wait i have werner om local archive ;-)02:09
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: rescue files from svn.openmoko.org (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/881bf3302:09
wpwrakhere they are :)02:10
kristianpaulah perfect, thats what i need to read02:11
wpwrakworkflow.fig ? :)02:11
wpwrakat least i hope   cat .svn/entries | sed '/^file/{x;n;};x;d'  does list all the files that exist in svn ...02:14
kristianpaulalredy deleted as well02:29
kristianpaulwpwrak: old-boom/README02:30
kristianpaulbut the .fig is good too02:31
wpwrakit's not terribly useful at the moment because you can't fetch new data from digi-key. but if you have your own inventory or copy things over manually, then you can run it on that02:35
kristianpauli get mad sourcing some capacitors..02:35
kristianpaulso wolfspraul convince me move boom first !02:35
wpwrakcaps can be nasty :)02:35
wpwrakhmm. the old boom will die. the new one is similar but has a number of differences02:36
qi-botThe build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20120430-2002 02:38
kristianpauldamn as soon as i activated cdc_ethernet and usbnet on the mr11u i lost ethernet networking..02:41
wolfspraulyou bricked it?02:44
kristianpauli'm afraid yes..02:45
kristianpaulconfirmed, as soon as it turn on the wifi led gets on02:46
kristianpaulit dint happen before..02:46
kristianpauloh well02:46
kristianpaulsooner or later i must have to open it :)02:47
kristianpaulah, i activated and nanonote was re-pluged02:53
wolfspraulthe serial console is easy to solder to, and then you can reflash with u-boot02:53
kristianpauli saw the cdc with dmesh on the mr11u, and last thing i did was try ifconfig usb002:53
kristianpaulit worked then....02:53
kristianpaulu-boot wow, i was expecting something less elaborated02:55
GitHub27[m1-gps-expansion] kristianpaul created master (+1 new commit): https://github.com/kristianpaul/m1-gps-expansion/commit/f866cd202:59
GitHub27[m1-gps-expansion/master] Initial import after clean up from upstream - Cristian Paul PeƱaranda Rojas02:59
kristianpaulwolfspraul: sources to hook it up to schhist,yes, here https://github.com/kristianpaul/m1-gps-expansion03:00
kristianpaulicarus copy, wow, this move faster :)03:17
wolfspraulkristianpaul: you have 2 dvb-t dongles now14:06
wolfsprauldo they have the same antenna connector?14:06
kristianpaulyes they do14:07
wolfspraulwhich one is this? sma? cmx? I can't figure it out14:07
wolfspraulthere are so many RF connectors14:08
kristianpauli think14:08
kristianpaulsma no for sure14:08
wolfspraulthe german wikipedia has a long article with lots of different rf connectors14:09
wolfsprauland this picture, which looks like the one you have I think http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Belling-Lee-Stecker.jpg14:09
wolfspraulbelling lee connector?14:09
wolfspraulok, unclear connector now. How about the antenna?14:10
wolfspraulcan you use the same antenna for different frequencies?14:11
kristianpaulfrom the pic is the one in the middle or left corner?14:11
wolfspraulit seems the osmo guys throw away all accessories including antenna before shipping out the dongle :-)14:11
kristianpaulsame atenna no way14:11
wolfspraulwhat characterizes the antenna?14:11
kristianpaulmostly depends on physical location of radio source you want to tune14:12
kristianpaulif is moving or not as well..14:12
kristianpaulsatellites moves.. so... 14:13
kristianpaulfor example gps requires an active antenna14:13
wolfspraulhow many different antennas do you have and worked with?14:13
wolfsprauland what connectors do they have?14:13
kristianpaulwell, they have a coaxial-like connector not surewich one exactly14:14
kristianpaul_but_ from atennas i had worked, just 3, a gps active atenna with sma14:14
kristianpaulgms atenna for receiver, sma14:14
kristianpauland home made yaggi atenna, i used mini coxial, wich is same as sma :-)14:14
wolfspraulgms, you mean gsm?14:15
kristianpauloops yes14:15
wolfspraulbtw, about the app pricing, I am thinking about increasing the price of M1 to 799 USD starting June 1st14:15
wolfspraulI want to make room for a lot of things, more high-tech, more power, bigger margins for really good sales partners, more upgrades, etc.14:16
wolfspraulI don't see the need to compete in any race-to-bottom with anyone, it's better to focus on making the product more valuable, and 799 USD is still reachable, even if people have to save a little - so what. that's good discipline.14:17
kristianpaulmore value. no? :-)14:17
kristianpaulproduct value*14:17
wolfspraulI just feel it's better for the future. sales are very slow recently, so the idea is definitely not to increase immediate revenues or anything.14:18
wolfspraulbut it makes the product and future more attractive, for ourselves and others. and customers don't mind paying for quality, in my experience. if the quality is really there.14:18
wolfsprauljust came to my mind when you saw the 49 USD app price. why not. if that app is good... :-)14:19
kristianpauli still thinking if buy it ;-)14:19
wolfspraulif we do this (799), I will announce on the list etc. and give people the chance to order at the old price for a while. of course.14:19
kristianpaulthats goos14:19
kristianpaulbtw inxluding soem MIDI stuff for 799?14:20
wolfspraulsame with nanonote to 149 USD. same idea. more updates, better price level for successor Ya, which may even end up at 199 USD. we need roooooom for better tech and better products.14:20
wolfspraulwhich one?14:20
wolfspraulI definitely try to make each sale a complete sale - guaranteed happiness :-)14:20
kristianpauldont know, a apple appstore 49usd gift for lemur ? ;-)14:21
wolfspraulas a next step I want to include a wifi solution in the form of a 703, where you can just setup essid and password on the m1, and then it works14:21
kristianpaul703 looks very straighforward for that14:21
wolfspraulwifi is very important to our users, and those thingies cost 16 usd and the problem is solved14:21
kristianpaulthe only problem will be you still need wires to power the wireless stuff 14:22
wolfspraulyes and powered over usb, slightly fiddly but we solve the problem and people can enjoy the m1 so much more14:22
wolfspraulno, 2 cables. one to usb, one to ethernet.14:22
kristianpaulah yeah14:22
kristianpaulimagine !14:22
wolfspraulI use this all the time, works great14:22
wolfspraulin fact it works so well, I gave up using some wifi usb dongles and switched to this solution, which is much more stable14:23
kristianpaulstable and tiny :-914:23
wolfspraulantenna performance I'm not so sure, but that's a luxury problem for m1 when the main issue now is "does it have wifi at all?"14:24
kristianpaulheeh yeah14:30
kristianpaulalso nanonote !14:30
kristianpaulbtw you you will handle 703n brand, as it is tplink product and you install owrt then sell whole thing as milkymist one?14:38
wolfspraulit's just the wifi dongle to include in the m1 box14:43
wolfspraulplug in, play (with m1)14:43
wolfspraulonly that this dongle is not the normal usb dongle, but has a second secret ethernet cable :-)14:43
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: hey, nice to hear this strategy adjustment14:43
kristianpaulsecond secret :)14:43
wolfspraulyeah I have to take werner's heat :-)14:44
wolfspraulno, but anyway. I am always looking for simple solutions that work, and this one does.14:44
wolfspraulthen we can go for bigger and better things on m1, and keep focused on what is good for m1. while users can "just use" wifi today.14:44
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: how much is M1 *now*?14:45
kristianpaulsurei like the solution about wifi14:45
kristianpauland ethernet, hacking POE !!14:45
kristianpaulguess the secret is ;-)14:46
wpwrakslow sales may feel like a slight but they actually don't hurt. better to have future customers who don't know about the product yet than have customers who want it not and find it out of stock.14:48
wpwrak(price increase) probably necessary, considering the unit cost. not sure how flexible our customers are. we may well have a segmented customer base with a group that would never buy anything above a USD 100-200 and another group that considers everything below USD 1000 a bargain.14:49
wpwrak(nanonote to 149) that hurts, though. the 99 was a nice "round number.14:50
kristianpaulOr people wanting to pay for and upgrade kit14:50
wpwrak"integrating" the tp-link sound scary14:52
wpwraki'd rather have a usb wifi dongle. there's something to be said about eliminating the linux prerequisite, but tp-link is still clumsy14:54
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: USD 49914:54
kristianpaulwpwrak: scary because the wiring?14:55
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: with dreadfully low margins. going through a distributor would basically mean that it would have to be sold (to the distributor) at manufacturing cost14:56
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: at least the R&D budget is easy to calculate then,  a nice colorless zero :)14:56
wpwrakkristianpaul: yes. and where would it be mounted ? inside the M1 ? outside ?14:57
wpwrakkristianpaul: would it be permanently attached ? removable ? floating freely14:57
wpwrakfor me, this means too many moving parts14:57
kristianpaulagree but14:58
kristianpaulis not this the problem with current or any accesory14:58
kristianpaullike kbd mouse and webcam?14:58
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah, for M1r4: prepare to resell spare rf keyboards. people will lose them and they may prefer to buy replacements from you instead of invoking their hunter and gatherer instincts14:58
wpwrakkristianpaul: is it not ? camera with its own bloody power supply ? c'mon :)14:59
kristianpaulsure it is14:59
kristianpaulmy point is we already suffer from it :-)15:00
wpwrakand we're just about to reduce the number of moving parts where it comes to mouse and keyboard :)15:00
kristianpaulso... there is no change if wolfgang adds a nother accesor15:00
wpwraki.e., from 2-4 to 1(+1)15:00
kristianpaulyes i know and  benefir from it :-)15:00
kristianpaulfor me mr11u could cause less trouble15:01
wpwrakbecause we suck today doesn't mean that we have an excuse for sucking tomorrow, too15:01
kristianpaulat least one cable to be used, at least you hack 703 for work as POE15:01
kristianpaulwpwrak: sure not, just kidding ;-)15:01
wpwrakdoes the tp-link fit inside the M1 case ?15:02
kristianpaulmay be the board15:02
wpwrakheh. on the extension header ? ;-))15:03
kristianpaulat least you sit it over the fpga with case15:03
rohwpwrak: http://shop.8devices.com/wifi4things/carambola15:03
rohthats basically a openwrt router on a small pcb to be embedded15:04
wpwrakcute :)15:04
wpwrakthat looks integration-friendlier than the tp-link15:04
rohi think that was the idea15:04
rohthey got openwrt in a github tree https://github.com/8devices/carambola and a wiki http://wiki.carambola.cc/15:06
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: wolfspraul: for this kind of changing pricetag, you _need_ to rename the product15:06
DocScrutinizercall it M215:06
DocScrutinizerM1i maybe15:06
kristianpaulM1 plus :-)15:06
wpwrakhmm. makes me wonder how hard it would be to simply use the RT3050 ...15:06
rohmy guess is their next product is citramona https://github.com/8devices/carambola/commit/3bac0167868f3c89d720de18952e9e7b7d9bf95815:07
rohwpwrak: more sucky to source and do rf routing for ;)15:07
kristianpaulhad you consider the effetcs of putting a 2.4Ghz devices next to a fpga?15:08
wpwrakroh: been there. done that ;-)15:08
Action: DocScrutinizer _adores_ qi-bot sed-regex X-P15:08
DocScrutinizer>>"at lebyt one cable to be used, at lebyt you hack<< WTF?!15:09
Action: roh still doesnt get what internal wifi should bring15:09
kristianpaulroh: wifi it self !15:09
kristianpaulthat we currently lack and miss (at least i do)..15:09
kristianpaulfor OSC will be cool, have it out of the box15:09
rohi mean.. its a 500E dedicated purpose device. people will just connect it to the network they already have.15:09
wpwrakkristianpaul: (RF vs. fpga) i'm kinda curious about that myself. we'll see when M1r4 is made :)15:10
rohi'd rather like to drive the price down. maybe then i could sell some15:10
wpwrakroh: "the network" is wifi nowadays15:10
rohwpwrak: bullshit.15:11
wpwrakroh: open your eyes, look around :)15:11
rohwpwrak: you obviously never tried running an event using 2.4 ghz. doesnt work.15:11
DocScrutinizernetwok problems is WLAN nowadays15:11
kristianpaulroh: jamed?15:11
rohever idiot and his smartphone blocking frequencies or pounding your net. so either one uses 5ghz or not.15:12
wpwrakroh: oh, i didn't say that it scales at will. but it's the default choice. you move to more complex things as needed.15:12
rohfor devices with wires on it nonetheless.. wired ethernet is the only thing thats reliable enough for 'event' stuff.15:12
DocScrutinizeruse cable as long as there is any15:12
rohwpwrak: from my pov: wifi is a waste of money and doesnt help me find customers.15:13
DocScrutinizerindeed I can't see any VJ using WLAN and hoping for the stability needed for the primary pirpose of M115:13
wpwrakthe RT3050 is amazing. it's pretty much the entire system. doesn't even need external memory.15:13
rohDocScrutinizer: exactly. and if the club has a network and people use it to control stuff, maybe even via wifi, they got accesspoints already and dont need any inside the mm115:14
DocScrutinizerhow about integrating a laserpointer to M1? At least as relevant for VJ as WLAN is15:14
rohDocScrutinizer: huh? whatfor?15:15
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: use cable , indeed15:15
wpwrakroh: to eliminate interfering WLAN transmitters :)15:15
kristianpaulthen use 433Mhz ;-)15:16
wpwrakconsider people who want to use their iGadget as a control surface. like it or not, they all communicate via wlan.15:16
wpwraknow, as you move to increasingly serious users, you'll find better solutions15:17
DocScrutinizererrr what?15:17
wpwrakbut wlan is the point of entry15:18
DocScrutinizera VJ using his *iPHone* to control M1 during a live show? HAHA15:18
wpwrakmaybe iPad. e.g., lemur moved from their own "pad" hw to becoming an app.15:18
DocScrutinizeryeah sure15:19
wpwrakmaybe it doesn't work great. but the pad competition was strong enough to drive their own hw out of the market15:19
DocScrutinizerand I'll control my heart pacemaker via 433MHz now15:19
DocScrutinizeror maybe via web interface, with public IP15:20
DocScrutinizervia dynDNS15:20
kristianpaulipv6 ;-)15:20
DocScrutinizerguess why *none* of the wireless microphone sets used on stage or in TV is via WLAN15:22
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: and accessible via your facebook account ;-)15:22
wpwrakmicrophones have other delay requirements than control surfaces15:22
DocScrutinizerthey *all* use very special dedicated frequency range, usually redundant twin channel15:22
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: nope, that's definitely not the reason15:22
wpwrakand in the M1, you normally don't need lightning-fast responses15:23
DocScrutinizerit's all about reliability requirements vs anticipated interference from other systems15:23
wpwrakeffects are generated by recursion anyway, so you always have a lag15:23
DocScrutinizerWLAN is a *hell* in that regard15:23
kristianpaulso what you suguest?15:24
DocScrutinizeruse cable15:24
DocScrutinizercables have very few interferences, system imanent property15:24
DocScrutinizercompared to duh WLAN15:25
rohi think wifi should be an option, which is not built in.15:25
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: renaming costs money, won't do. Why do you think it's beneficiary?15:25
DocScrutinizerUSB dongle, all fine15:25
rohsupport 'access via ip' and 'ethernet' properly and wifi is nothing of your concern.15:26
wolfspraulchinese companies change chips without changing the name (really), I change price without changing the name :-)15:26
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: to all I learnt so far customers simply get pissed when stuff gets more expensive15:26
rohstart adding wifi and you got fcc shit on your hands again. and all the range discussion. let somebody else debug that problems ;)15:26
wolfspraulnot here. sales are slow, people are not waiting in line. and the announcement will be in advance.15:27
DocScrutinizereven if the new higher price was just justified and fine, they will refuse to buy at new price if they know it's been available for less15:27
kristianpauland milkymist still liek a private group.. now 799 for enter ;-)15:27
wolfspraulnot worried about that15:27
wolfspraulthey should have bought earlier :-)15:27
wpwrakroh: "our patent-pending proprietary XXS-range technology protects against interferences" ;-)15:27
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: at very least officially announce fade out of subsidized introductory pricing15:28
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: i think the increase would be for M1r4 and beyond. that one has a number of improvements.15:29
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: that's why I sugeested a rename to at very least M1+15:29
kristianpaulcurrent stock is it 10 -15 kits? for M115:29
wpwrakheh :)15:29
wolfspraulsomething like that15:30
rohi still got 2 spare case kits left15:30
wolfspraulsales in April: 015:30
rohone in violett, one in uv-red15:30
wpwraki'm not opposed to a name change per se. we have few enough things that say "M1". most say "milkymist". let the ministry of truth, historical accuracy, and bureaucratic redundancy take care of the IRC logs :)15:30
wolfspraulI won't change any name, no need15:30
DocScrutinizerno sane company will sell a significantly improved product without changing the name to make everybody aware -esp not when this improvement is associated to an increase in price15:30
wpwrakno change is fine with me, too :)15:31
wolfspraulsometimes I just say 'milkymist' now for everything, which is still fine15:31
rohas long as you change any revision or so i think its fine15:31
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: think of it as sheik buying a "rolls royce". you have your underlings to worry about mundane things like the price :)15:32
DocScrutinizer"Wolfgang Spraul annouced the new M1 last Thursday..." .oO(what a BS, it's not new at all) <skips article>15:33
DocScrutinizer"Wolfgang Spraul annouced the new M1+ last Thursday..." .oO(OOOH M1 PLUS??) 15:33
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: about 99.99999% of the world population will not know about the old M1 anyway :)15:34
DocScrutinizerjust saying, you're free to ignore me15:34
wpwraki don't think it's a big deal. the device is niche enough that communication paths are short. and there's little risk of someone selling M1r3s as M1r4s15:36
wpwrakbesides, you can tell by a fairly large number of visual differences15:37
wpwrakfor identification purposes, it could be nice to also change some elements of case color. but i'm not sure there would be much enthusiasm about that idea.15:38
kristianpaulannounce will take place in ML...15:38
kristianpaulor wolfspraul have other plans? i guess not15:39
DocScrutinizeranyway you probably won't like headlines like "Wolfgang Spraul annouced the new pricetag for M1 last Thursday... Up by 80%" 15:39
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: how about "wolfgang announces the new model of the Milkymist 1 series [with enhanced features. price is USD 799."15:40
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: get yours M1 soon at least ;-) !15:40
DocScrutinizerwhich is more in line with "Wolfgang Spraul annouced the new M1+ last Thursday..."15:41
wpwrak"remaining stock of the previous model will be sold at USD 499."15:41
DocScrutinizer"internally we call it M1+15:41
DocScrutinizerjust s/[with enhanced features]/[with _massively_ enhanced features]15:42
wpwrakyup. i think it's important to point out the improvement. for two reasons: 1) it provides a reason for the increase. 2) it tells you what your money is used for. most people don't understand R&D cost.15:42
wpwrakit's not a MASSIVE enhancement. at least not on the hw side. but it's better. and it took some work. so .. :)15:43
DocScrutinizer"since we like the name so much, the official branding remains 'Milkymist 1' while internally we use to call it M1+..."15:43
wpwrakfor the massive enhancement, i'd still like an integrated pad :)15:43
wpwraknaw, you don't need to explain the naming15:43
wpwrakconsider BMW, series 315:44
wpwrakor benz, C-class15:44
wpwrakwell-established precedent :)15:44
DocScrutinizeranyway, I guess I somewhat made my point. Dunno if it's relevant and based on good facts15:46
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: neither bmw nor benz ever increased pricetag of successor model by such a hurting smash15:47
DocScrutinizerat least not unless the comlete design changed so much you'd rather ask "that's WHAT? a S500?"15:48
DocScrutinizerof course if already the product photo makes it utterly clear there's a _huge_ difference, you won't go and compare price to a model that simply had same name by any weird incidence, 5 years ago15:49
wpwrakyou mean we should add fins ? ;-)15:50
DocScrutinizerfins are fine ;-D15:51
DocScrutinizerplus some fancy blinkenlights15:51
wpwrakoh, we have these :)15:51
DocScrutinizerduh, we already got those? good! :-)15:52
DocScrutinizermake sure they're lit for all product photos15:52
wpwrakLED matrix powered by a 24 channel PWM ;-)15:52
DocScrutinizerI know ;-P15:52
wpwrakchannel separation 30 dB or better :)15:52
DocScrutinizerwouldn't hurt the product photo would show blinkenlight matrix display "M1+" ;-)15:53
DocScrutinizerno need to rename anything then15:53
wpwraknaw, the leds are on the edge of the board. they don't form a physical matrix.15:54
DocScrutinizertoo bad15:54
wpwrakof course, we could perhaps show "M1+" in morse code .... :)15:54
DocScrutinizerhard to transport on a photo15:54
wpwrakparticularly with variable spacing between LEDs :)15:55
wpwrakwell, non-uniform15:55
Action: DocScrutinizer idly recalls he still has "decode long SMS morse beep of Nokia" on his long term ToDo15:55
DocScrutinizeryou could add a 7*18 matrix under the transparent cover, just for the product photos. footnote: "matrix display optional"15:57
DocScrutinizerroh: I gather some of the next days there's "linux-Tag" in Berlin? I pondered to maybe visit it and just visit you and Berlin same occasion15:59
DocScrutinizerand c-base :-)15:59
wpwrakheh ;-) i almost have that already: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/leds/ledm-in-m1.jpg15:59
rohi dont have a clue. i ignore linuxtag the last 10 years or so now15:59
DocScrutinizerroh: ooh, well then maybe I should ignore it too15:59
rohi dunno.. it just was to boring at one point and i never revisited16:00
DocScrutinizerI pondered visiting goldelico/Nikolaus17:22
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: never pictured you as an apple fan ;-)17:29
DocScrutinizerapple fan?17:38
wpwrakgolden delicious is an apple :)17:50
whitequarkwpwrak: this? http://cdn.coolest-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/usb-apple-fan-novelty-gadget-0.jpg17:58
whitequarkI wonder how exactly did you fit the image of DocScrutinizer with that gadget...17:58
wpwraknaw, very different context ;-)18:09
wpwrakthese guys: http://www.golden-delicious.de/18:10
LunaVoraxHello everyone!20:58
JCGspHi everyone21:15
tuxbrainwoflspraul are you there?21:25
tuxbrainwolfspraul: knock knock21:26
tuxbrainby the way hello to every one alive on the channel :)21:27
tuxbrainoh man , wolfspraul  you will make me to configure my jabber account? 21:28
JCGspanybody uses Debian on Nanonote?21:29
wpwrakdamn. i should have paid more attention to the movies. how to thwart a zombie attack ?22:22
Aylalawn mower22:23
AylaPeter Jackson style22:23
wpwrakJCGsp: some people do. but it seems to involve a lot of suffering.22:24
wpwrakJCGsp: 1) because it's slow (not sure if in general or just boot time). 2) because they represent about 70% of all cases of bricked bens. fortunately, one can recover from 2).22:25
wpwrakAyla: hmm. i found out that today's zombie is feeding on cat at the moment. so maybe we're safe for now.22:30
Aylabe careful of cat zombies22:31
wpwrakoh, with nine lives, their undead state can't be too different from their after-death states22:32
wpwraki'd be worried if i was a rat, though. it's bad enough that they're apex predators for most practical purposes. then add zombie ...22:33
Aylahuman zombies don't eat vegetables, they eat humans; so I believe zombie cats eat cats, and zombie rats eat rats22:35
wpwrakyes, that would make sense. so if you're, say, attacked by a tiger, just zombify it and you're safe.22:38
tuxbrainI didn't thought before  zombify is a right solution to anything... but dude you have make me rethink this with more detail 22:41
wpwrakalas, it wouldn't work with bankers. it would only change their craving from your blood to your brains ...22:42
Aylawpwrak: zombifying tigers would save them from extinction22:45
Ayla(unless those zombies can die of hunger, which occurs only on bad movies)22:46
wpwrakAyla: a most excellent point. i think you should bring this up with the WWF.22:46
wpwrakin fact, carpet bombing their habitats would already be sufficient to protect them from getting killed by poachers.22:48
Aylagood idea22:50
Aylalet's take the best of both:22:51
Aylabomb the poachers, and zombify the tigers22:51
wpwrakmaybe zombify baby tigers. then teach them from early on to eat poacher brains, instead of tiger brains.22:52
qi-bot[commit] Paul Cercueil: MIPS: JZ4740: LCD: Fixed LCD_CMD consts and completed LCD_STATE consts (jz-3.3) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/b3353d622:53
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: MIPS: JZ4740: SLCD: In TV-out mode, add a black line on top and bottom (jz-3.3) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/126467222:53
Aylanice, I commited something without knowing it!22:53
mththat commit contained only changes from your patch, so I set you as the author22:54
wpwraktuxbrain: well well, things here are somewhat quiet these days. nanonote is in hibernation. M1 is moving forward, though, with another round of hardware in the making22:54
JCGspwpwrak: I have zero problems with Debian, just that I can't start X session. Either with Ratpoison or another WM22:55
AylaI didn't know it's possible to assing a commit to another user22:55
wpwrakJCGsp: does the X server log its complains in /var/log/X* ?22:56
tuxbrainwpwrak: no need to connect to chat to feel the hybernation :P22:57
wpwraktuxbrain: oh, the mailing lists are very quiet. things have moved to a greater extent to IRC.23:00
JCGspwpwrak: Nope, file is empty23:01
tuxbrainwpwrak: I refering to sales but yes mailing list activity is also valid :P 23:01
wpwrakJCGsp: empty is strange. there should be no file at all or a file with lots of things (the latter case, if the X server is xorg)23:04
JCGspwpwrak: I Think so, I'll try to reinstall X again23:06
JCGspwpwrak: It gave an error23:10
mthAyla: git commit --author='name'23:13
Aylaand --email too?23:14
mthname can include email addr23:14
--- Thu May 3 201200:00

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