#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2012-04-20

Action: wpwrak wonders if rjeffries in return sings the praise of qi-hw on the raspberry pi channel00:15
wolfsprauldoes it matter?00:20
wolfspraulthe raspberry pi has pretty much nothing of interest, but bad art has never necessarily stopped people from lining up for it :-)00:21
wolfspraula broadcom marketing gimmick, oh my :-)00:21
wolfsprauldid anybody see the success of the pebble watch on kickstarter?00:22
wolfspraulthat's something new00:22
wolfspraulthey raised over 5 million USD in preorders for a new product, cool!00:22
wolfspraulthat will kick some of the lazier VCs into shape to provide real value to their startups00:22
wolfspraulit's not open hardware or anything, but a great success on financing through preorders. their timeline and history suggests that they can actually deliver... cool I think00:24
rz2kI actually dont get why rpi guys cant make manufacturing faster, with 200k+ preorders...00:24
wolfspraulwell00:24
wolfspraulwhat is the rpi actually?00:25
wolfspraulthink about it00:25
rz2kbroadcom sponsored company for world domination :300:25
wpwrak(watch) yeah, pretty impressive00:25
wolfspraulit's broadcom's answer to the 'successful' beagleboard, and on the other side also something to sneak developers from qualcomm/atheros00:25
wolfspraula sad thing, marketing scheming all around00:26
wolfspraulI feel sorry for people that waste their time on this, but ok00:26
wolfspraulthere are lots of hobbies one can have :-)00:26
wolfspraulwho am I to judge...00:26
wolfspraulhere's the watch http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphone-and-android00:26
wpwrakthey could do worse, and become apple fanboys and -girls ;-)00:27
wolfspraulrz2k: have you ordered a pi?00:27
rz2kI had, but then I found beaglebone and dropped ordrer on rpi.00:27
wolfspraulbeaglebone?00:27
wolfspraulwhat is that? :-)00:28
rz2kcrippled beagleboard00:28
wpwraki like that they use e-paper. i think that technology is badly under-used. perhaps it'll get more attention once the relevant patents expire.00:28
wolfspraulbtw, just for the record00:28
wolfspraulqi hardware is an open hardware project00:28
rz2khttp://beagleboard.org/bone00:28
wolfspraulso we innovate on things like mechanical, sourcing, testing, eda tools, etc.00:28
wolfspraulthere is actually zero overlap to something either like the beagle* or pi00:28
wolfspraulthe overlap is with projects like elphel, osmo*, arduino, maybe some others. most make pretty bad compromises on tools though, seems they don't see much value in a free process. so we try here :-)00:29
wolfspraulI hope we accelerate with m100:30
wolfspraultransfer to kicad, then source with boom finally. maybe even layout over, why not.00:30
wolfspraulwant to speed up and leave the legacy tools behind us so we can be faster and cheaper on future hardware00:30
wolfsprauloh and I hope the migen switch actually happens00:31
wolfsprauland gives us faster memory and then higher resolution, while the board moves from analog video-out to digital video-out00:31
wpwrakmore pixel depth ! :)00:31
wolfspraulalso, sure00:32
wpwraki'm getting very tired of staring at all that green ;-)00:32
wolfspraulwith our (slow and good) speed, by the time we are done the master schemers have already dueled a bit more and there will be less options00:32
wolfspraulI understand broadcom is fighting, they should00:32
wolfspraulunlike some others who are already 'done', broadcom still has a chance to maintain their independence00:33
wolfspraulso management should work hard to keep their good paychecks coming :-)00:33
wpwrakand they're moving in the direction of openness, which is always a good thing00:34
wolfspraulwhere do you see that?00:34
wpwrake.g., they released fairly detailed soc documentation. that wasn't around before.00:34
wpwrakand we've seen companies even go in the opposite direction00:35
wolfsprauleverybody is competing for limited developer talent00:35
wpwrakit's also nice that they're releasing their schematics, at least (nice) at a symbolic level00:36
wolfspraulbut sure, every chip with an open datasheet is a good chip00:36
wolfspraulrz2k: what do you plan to do with the beaglebone?00:36
wpwraki prefer companies to compete on openness than on who has the prettier shackles ;-)00:37
wolfspraulha ha, just laughing00:37
wolfspraulI read the beaglebone page and see this https://img.skitch.com/20120127-r654se4xy3xi1pnp8hgxn72weg.png00:38
wolfspraulis that an ipad?00:38
wolfspraulthat's something for Sebastien00:38
wolfspraulso the ipad is one thing, and the beaglebone powers the led next to it? (just kidding, just kidding :-))00:39
rz2kI'll try to remember my embedded linux skills, maybe do some simple camera or video stuff. I'm not a hardcore dev with 15y+ of experience. :300:39
wolfspraulI just hooked up a webcam to a mobile openwrt router to build a streaming cam for Jon00:39
wolfspraulworked like a charm, 40 USD cost, 4 hours continuous streaming over wifi00:40
wolfspraulhttp://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=133800:42
wpwrakhave you introduced him to MIDI on the M1 yet ? :)00:42
wolfspraulgood point, not yet00:43
wolfspraulrz2k: please keep us posted about your beaglebone endeavor00:44
wpwrakhah, gotcha ! :)00:44
rz2kok :)00:44
wolfspraulI understand that many people feel this urge to move past the boring desktop/notebook world, and it's tough to find a good starting point in the 'beyond' world00:45
wolfspraulany step is good, as long as you learn and quickly adjust so that you get the most satisfaction out of it00:45
wolfspraulI don't have anything 'better' than the beaglebone or pi for you either00:45
wolfspraulthe stuff we work on here is also pretty exotic and requires you to be in a drugged state, more or less, to enjoy :-)00:46
wolfspraulthough one you get the hang I think it's pretty cool and rewarding00:46
wolfsprauloh btw, I saw this Ikea & TCL teaming up news. Jon and I are working on some connections with large furniture makers00:47
wolfspraulmaybe with Ikea making such a highly public move, something interesting may emerge there00:47
wolfspraulI think Ikea has a great sales channel to sell goods that include embedded electronics00:48
wolfspraulBest Buy is closing stores (thank god), I don't think Ikea is :-)00:48
wolfspraulhttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/17/tuning-in-to-tv-new-ikea-furniture-line-to-offer-i/00:48
wolfspraulrz2k: hey, still there? :-)00:51
wolfspraulI keep reading the beaglebone page00:51
wolfspraulran into the section "Is this just a TI marketing gimmick?"00:51
wolfspraulha ha00:51
wolfspraulI see they listened a bit better in the propaganda 101 class00:52
rz2kyeah, they tried to confront that, but we know the truth :300:52
wolfspraulbut ... with me living in Beijing ... *NOTHING* can beat the masters I see working at this game every day around me00:52
rz2kI'm sure circuitco is funded by TI.00:52
wolfspraulthe guys here in the capital are so good at it, they will make your head hurt with all their twists and turns in manipulating people :-)00:52
wolfspraulthat TI & Broadcom stuff looks like childs play in comparison00:53
wolfspraulanyway00:53
wolfspraulso no, it's not a TI marketing gimmick00:53
wolfspraulof course not00:53
wolfspraulthey even answered it already, ahem00:53
wolfspraul:-)00:53
wolfspraulit seems the beaglebone is more or less directly aimed at arduino00:54
wolfspraulwhich already is quite an eye opener since for any real open project, there is no competition in the old sense of who owns what.00:55
wolfspraulsay for our work here, if some other great 'open' project comes along. oh my, we are so so scared.00:56
wolfspraulreally00:56
wolfsprauloh god, that must be the end00:56
wolfspraulah no wait, maybe not?00:56
rz2kcheck their cloud9 ide thats installed on sd card by default00:56
rz2kits javascript controlling hardware :S00:56
wolfspraulthere are exactly 2 options, in each such case:00:56
wolfspraul1) the project is not actually open, then of course it is not interesting and most likely there are far better closed projects out there already00:56
wolfspraul2) the project is open, or parts of it, and then those parts are also *reusable*, by definition00:57
wolfspraulso any successful open project creates opportunities for other open projects00:57
wolfspraulbut I think 90% of 'open' projects are not very open beyond a new trick at redefining what open means00:57
wolfspraulwhich makes them irrelevant in the context of the actual open projects :-)00:58
wolfspraulhope this makes sense :-)00:58
wolfspraulthat's so funny that they answer the "marketing gimmick" question themselves there00:58
wolfspraulactually I think if it is a marketing gimmick, you can still try to use it to your advantage as much as possible00:59
wolfspraulprobably you should00:59
wolfspraulbut watch out, they don't care that much about how well it actually works for you...00:59
wolfspraulthere's no room for that in the, ahem, marketing budget :-)01:00
mthso the question is not whether it is marketing, but whether it is a gimmick...01:07
wolfspraul:-)01:10
wolfspraulnice, xiangfu did his first smt factory visit :-) http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=136101:22
cladamwwpwrak, i see you have a 'Unclassified > werner-17042012 > DIODE-SOT-AXC', is this diode symbol an actually like SOT-xx-x you created ?02:12
cladamwsince this symbol is the very common that I want to use, so i'd like to just rename it as for 'diode.lib'. How do you think ?02:13
cladamwsince we have like 0805 for this same symbol. :)02:14
wpwraki have a few diode-in-sot symbols. they're all in dual_diode.lib02:15
wpwrakgood quesion about diode-sot-acx, though :) lemme check ..02:17
wolfspraulis that painful or not? http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57416413-94/apis-take-center-stage-at-oracle-google-trial/02:18
wpwrakit's basically equivalent to "DS"02:18
wolfspraulI think many times our discussions about patents, copyright etc. are totally removed from the real world02:18
wpwrakwolfspraul: it's a moving battle :)02:18
wolfspraulonce any of this stuff would get to an actual trial, it would be mangled down in horrible ways unimaginable to us anyway02:18
wolfspraulthat's not to say that we should let down our quality standards, not at all02:19
wolfspraulbut I can painfully imagine how the poor jury and judges and others have to endure these infinite attempts at APIs and what not02:20
wpwrakcladamw: DIODE-SOT-AXC emphasizes the characteristic of being a diode. DS emphasizes the package (3 pins). both are equivalent.02:20
wolfspraulalready wondering whether they will be caught up in rush hour traffic jam on the way home, or get out a bit earlier today! :-)02:20
wpwrakcladamw: similar to your 74AUP1G08GW,125 emphasizing the package with my 74X1G08_5 putting slightly more focus on the function02:21
wpwrakwolfspraul: regarding juries, i wonder how a direct attack on the basis of the patent system would work. namely the legal fiction that "infringing" on a patent implies that any value has been obtained from it02:23
cladamwwpwrak, okay ... so just a name with emphasizing 3 pins. but since I'm now need to use 0805 with such same symbol (surely KiCad has it ), so do we keep to use yours or we create another generic naming for diode lib ?02:23
cladamwalthough we knew the model link we can link to specific one. :)02:24
wpwrakcladamw: you can't use DIODE-SOT-AXC "as is", because it uses pins 1 and 3. but you could make an adapted version for pins 1 and 2, compatible with 0805, etc.02:24
wpwrakthe AXC means: pin 1 = anode, pin 2 = absent, pin 3 = cathode02:25
cladamwwpwrak, aha ... i see. since I don't get into seeing its pins assignment, sorry that i asked a stupid question. oaky... now I go to create a generic one. 02:26
wolfspraulwho knows you know it's all speculation02:26
wpwraka diode for 0805 (or also any number of through-hole footprints) would be DIODE-AC, if following the same naming convention. the "-SOT" was probably a bad idea, although it helps to clarify why we need the "AXC" 02:27
cladamwso I'll give a named 'DIODE-AC' :-O02:27
wolfspraulI think we are reasonably safe from vicious attacks, and respect other peoples work (of course). should be fine.02:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: sure. i just wonder if anyone has actually tried that. this ought to be the weak point of a jury.02:27
wolfspraulI will pay more attention to trademarks too, stay away from trademarks that are being gobbled up with whatever money making scheme.02:27
wolfsprauldoes anyone know how the performance of a pcb antenna (say wifi or 802.15.4) is affected by a strong magnet nearby?02:28
wpwrakthe magnetism doesn't matter. the metal of the magnet probably does02:29
wolfspraulcan magnets in general impact the performance of ics, do they have an impact on the electrons flowing around?02:29
wpwrak(assuming a conventional magnet)02:29
wolfspraulok sure, the metal is clear. but the magnetic field has no impact?02:30
wpwraknormally, very little02:30
wpwrakof course, if we're talking about an MRI or such, things change02:31
wolfspraulMRI?02:31
wpwrakcladamw: DIODE-AC sounds good to me. or simple DIODE. it's the most basic layout anyway :)02:32
wolfspraulI was thinking of magnets used to make things hold onto each other02:32
cladamwwpwrak, yuh. okay.02:32
wpwrakMagnetic resonance imaging 02:32
wpwrakoh, these are WEAK ;-)02:32
wolfspraulok02:33
wolfspraulso you would not even expect an impact on a pcb antenna02:33
wolfspraulgreat :-)02:33
wolfspraulI was worried the field may just crowd out the spectrum, or whatever. since it's magnetic, the rf is electromagnetic (?) well, I am guessing/wondering02:34
wpwrakthe magnet just has a few millitesla at most. and it's fairly static. it's field changes that cause electrons to move.02:35
wolfspraulah that makes sense02:36
wpwrakstrong magnets are in the order of 1 tesla or more. and even then, if the field is static, not much happens02:36
wolfspraulok but say you plug your electronic device against a metal wall, to attach it there02:36
wpwraki'd worry a lot about the metal wall :)02:36
wolfspraulthen the mechanical action of moving the logic board into the field, or changing the field (?) because it's now holding to the other side could cause a small disturbance?02:37
wolfspraulbut yeah, I got it02:37
wolfspraulstatic field, weak, etc.02:37
rohwolfspraul: i think you are in the clear for regular magnetic forces in a household02:38
wpwrakthere will be a small disturbance, yes. not sure if it'll be strong enough to upset reception. in any case, it's very limited in time. while the huge reflecting metal wall will be there - in comparison - forever02:38
rohemi from powertools is as bad as it gets for most 'disturbances of the force' ;)02:39
wpwrakroh: excluding present company, perhaps ;-) oh wait, sebastien isn;t around. then i guess we're safe :)  (he sometimes gets ideas about the dark side of physics)02:39
wpwrakyeah, power tools are evil. sparks and all02:40
wolfspraulpower tools?02:40
wolfspraullike what?02:40
wpwrakdrills, saws, ...02:40
wolfspraulok02:40
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: added diode.lib (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/0fa17f602:41
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/8e136ef02:41
wpwraki'd worry mainly about the sparks because they cover a wide range of the spectrum02:41
wpwrakthe more pedestrian things normally don't reach into higher frequencies02:42
xiangfuhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Soldering02:44
xiangfuI copy some videos from this factory. not sure about the license. I just uploaded first.02:45
wpwraksoldering ... how not to do it ;-)02:46
wpwrakxiangfu: i didn't know you had entered the film business, directing a horror movie ;-) well, 0201 #1 and #2 have a happy ending, but ...02:49
wolfspraulxiangfu: ok wait. let's find out the license and delete unless it's specifically ok to upload them as public domain or whatever.02:52
wolfspraulthese clips look like instructional clips from a smt or reflow maker maybe02:53
wolfspraulI understand that smt factry staff 'gave' them to you, but we need to determine the origin or license, don't want to accumulate content of unclear origins in the qi wiki...02:53
wolfspraulonce we accept some sloppiness, I think it's a slippery slope and over time we loose control of the qi content quality altogether02:54
wolfspraulhad enough trouble with Carlos students freely copy-pasting a while back :-)02:55
wpwrakˑ = Erected a monument. nice ;-)02:55
wolfspraulthose are nice videos btw, but we need to determine the origin02:56
xiangfuwolfspraul, ok.02:56
wolfspraulwe determined that we need to delete the videos until the origin is clear03:02
wolfspraulthe guy who gave them to xiangfu 'forgot' where they are from :-)03:03
wolfspraulthey look like videos from a pick & place or reflow maker to me03:04
xiangfuˑ = Erected a monument :-) . 03:09
cladamwhi, how can i get back MiscControl.sch from git server ? I mean typing what cmds. :-) https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/blob/030dc54f9ffa2674f666940d647d3b20bfc1294e/r4/MiscControl.sch03:14
cladamwsince my local MiscControl.sch got unexpected loss lots of texts after I filled-in non standard pdf link (i.e. includes non-ASCII code link.) :(03:15
cladamwexcept using that 'download' icon to download, is there other git cmd, i can use ?03:16
xiangfucladamw, git checkout 030dc54f9ffa2674f666940d647d3b20bfc1294e -- r4/MiscControl.sch03:16
wpwrakdon't use non-ASCII :)03:16
wpwrakif you're looking for non-ASCII, here's some more: MCE-100 and SCJ368R1NUS0B00G both contain things vim highlights. in MCE-100, they're at 5.6mV/Pa, ????9.703:19
wpwrakin SCJ368R1NUS0B00G, 3.5???? Phone03:19
cladamwxiangfu, http://dpaste.com/734533/03:20
cladamwwpwrak, yeah ... seems i have to remove them.03:21
cladamwxiangfu what err of that ?03:22
cladamwxiangfu maybe i just quickly use 'download' ?03:22
wpwraki think you could just drop the r4/, since you're already in r4/03:23
xiangfucladamw, yes. try remove r4/03:25
cladamwxiangfu, wpwrak yeah . you are right. tks. the file is back. :)03:26
pabs3someone trying out OpenRISC: http://rwmj.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/this-could-be-interesting/03:36
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: fixed non-ASCII texts (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b01d67103:54
cladamwwpwrak, last time you said /EXPAND is AUTO or manually added in ?03:57
Action: DocScrutinizer moos, mesmerized04:02
DocScrutinizer(for those wondering, check wikipedia for mesmerize, it's related to magnetism doing strange things to human brain ;-D04:03
DocScrutinizer)04:03
DocScrutinizer"animalischer Magnetismus" - ROTFL04:06
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: static magnetic fields usually have pretty little impact on electric circuits. It needs specially designed components exploiting exotic effects like Hall-effect or GMR, to even *detect* magnetic fields04:09
DocScrutinizerchokes with ferromagnetic core however can get saturated by static magnetic fields, causing a massive loss of inductance of the choke04:10
DocScrutinizersee transductor04:10
wolfspraulok, very interesting - thanks!04:11
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: for better looking (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/fec227507:58
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu: update CON7x2 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/9af36fd09:49
kyakdoes qi hardware have a competitor? is there such a thing as competition  in open hardware world?11:08
kyaki often see how you bash arduino or bb or rpi.. but why do you do that? are they not "open" enough? or maybe you feel a competitor?11:10
rz2kbb and rpi arent open at all. :311:40
wolfspraulkyak: you see me bashing them? I should re-read the chat archives and improve my language then :-)12:11
wolfspraulthe arduino project in particular is amazing12:11
wolfspraulI think I told the story how I was wondering around an 8 or more level bookstore in Tokyo once, and felt totally lost among all the Japanese characters12:11
wolfsprauluntil I finally saw a book about...12:12
wolfspraulARDUINO :-)12:12
wolfspraulthen I knew there must be friends there, somewhere in this foreign city :-)12:12
wolfspraulthe pi is also very interesting because it adds hdmi output (and 256 meg ram) at that pricepoint12:12
wolfspraulalthough so far I was able to solve all problems in that category with openwrt-based routers12:13
wolfspraulI agree that there is no competition in open projects, at best they can help and lift up each other12:14
wolfspraulthat's the whole point imho12:14
wolfspraulkyak: what do you think of these projects? [bb/pi/arduino] are you using any of them? what do you like the most?12:16
kyakwolfspraul: i'm using arduino and bb to showcase control systems development in Matlab/Simulink12:18
kyakmostly for academic12:18
kyakLego NXT is the third one12:18
wolfspraulnice! please tell us more12:18
wolfspraulwhat is the best part of them? (what you like the most)12:19
kyaki'm not sure if you are interested, it's not realted to open source :)12:19
wolfspraulwell12:19
wolfspraulI think it is, actually. the boundary is not clear, right?12:19
wolfsprauland you speak freely, so with your own actions of freely sharing what you do and learnt, you make them more open :-)12:19
kyakwe are using Lego and Arduino to show control systems development, and bb to show different image/audio/video processing techniques12:20
wolfspraulyou seem to have a really large base actually12:20
wolfspraulyou are a Ben user, also arduino, bb, milkymist - wow! :-)12:20
kyakhttp://www.mathworks.com/academia/arduino-software/12:20
kyak(on the left you can find the same for bb/ lego etc)12:20
kyakso you hook up any of this shit to your laptop, develop some block diagrams in Simulink, and then see it running on real hardware.. that's in a nutshell12:21
wolfspraulwhat is simulink? (checking)12:21
kyakit is a software for modeling of dynamic systems12:22
kyakthe key point is that you can test your design early, and then you are using automatic C/C++ code generation for implementation12:23
kyakso these cheap and available hardware like arduino help us demonstrate many of modern paradigms, like model-based design12:24
wolfspraulhow much do you pay for simulink?12:25
kyakif you use it commercially, a lot (well, hard to define "a lot"). I wouldn't afford that. Company would affort it. FOr educational use, it's much0much cheaper12:26
wolfspraulhe12:26
wolfspraulI think that will always remain a strange concept to me, I maybe a little old fashioned about 'education'12:26
kyakit becomes very clear why if you think that they are students now, and in 5-10 years they are working for some companies12:27
wolfspraulwhat are the closest free alternatives you know that could solve a similar problem?12:27
kyakthere is nothing like that in open source.12:27
wolfspraulinteresting12:28
kyaknot even close12:28
kyakthere are non-free competitors, but they are also far away12:28
wolfspraulI will read more about it12:29
wolfspraulthanks! always eager to learn12:29
wolfspraul:-)12:29
kyakMatlab/Simulink is a de-facto standard for modeling and simulation and deployment in automotive/aerospace/defense12:29
kyakand btw, Simulink models can run on Ben (just like they run on arduino or bb or TI processors or whatever else): https://github.com/kyak/nanonote_ert12:31
kyakprobably what could be intersting for you is that you can generate HDL code from Simulink models: http://www.mathworks.com/products/hdl-coder/12:32
kyakthat's enough for non-free/non-OSS :)12:33
wolfspraulin your projects/work, what comes after simulink?12:35
wolfspraulyou first model a dynamic system in it, then ?12:35
wolfspraulhow does it go to an arduino or bb?12:35
kyakfor open source alternatives, Octave is pretty much the clone of Matlab and Scilab is a clone of Simulink. But again, it's light years behind12:35
wolfspraulit's compiled and linked with libraries, then executed as a program? via hdl it requires an fpga?12:36
kyakthen Simulink generates C code from your model and you can feed it into your IDE/toolchain to deploy on the final target12:36
kyakfor hdl it requires and fpga or hdl simulator12:37
wolfspraulok it starts to make sense :-)12:37
kyakit actually makes a lot of sense, and also pays my bills :) I used to work for several automotive companies developing the software for ECU's using Simulink (and i'm not a programmer, i don't have to be to develop in Matlab/Simulink). And now i'm what is called an "Applicatin Engineer". Teaching others how to solve their problems using our tools12:40
wolfspraulwhat is an ECU?12:41
kyakElectronic Control Unit12:41
kyaki thought all people in Germany know that ;)12:41
kyakor Engine Control Unit, which describes it better12:42
wolfspraulstill wondering about scilab and simulink12:46
wolfspraulif the models are simple, at some point they must be simple enough to be representable with scilab, no?12:46
wolfspraulso why wouldn't you use scilab until you reach a feature that is only possible in simulink, and then use simulink for those advanced models?12:47
wolfspraulI would probably want to approach problems bottom-up12:47
kyakit's not the model's simplicity/hardness that matter.. It's a question of your complete workflow,.. Like having requirements linked to your models and back, code generation, intensive early verification and validation, certification artefacts.. you get nothing of this (and many else)12:48
wolfspraulbut you are so well versed in free operating systems and tools :-)12:49
wolfspraulif even you say that you can't do it there, that's amazing12:49
kyaki like open source :)12:49
kyakbut when i test octave vs matlab and octave is like 100 times slower, what can i do?12:50
wolfspraulI will read more about this, and try out. slowly moving to modeling, digital systems, dynamic systems, etc.12:50
kyakthe only 'pros' is that octave actually runs on Ben :)12:50
wolfspraulyeah, amazing12:50
wolfspraulI'm trying to find a reason to use it :-)12:50
wolfspraulcan I model signal filters with it?12:51
kyaksure can12:51
wolfspraulI should try12:51
wolfspraulah ok12:51
wolfspraulgood! :-)12:51
kyakyeah, i've shown octave running on ben to my collegues, and they liked that "small Matlab" :) But then they show me their iphones running matlab in a cloud, and i feel like i'm from 90s :)12:53
wolfsprauloh sure, I can imagine12:53
wolfspraulthey run matlab on a cloud server, and only the gui on the iphone?12:53
kyakright12:53
wolfspraulnice12:53
kyakand it's "free" btw.. you only got to have a license12:53
wolfspraulwell, I see through that definition of 'free', easy to say 'no thanks'12:54
wolfspraulbut the usability is great, no doubt12:54
wolfspraulyou could model systems and let them run on your milkymist board via hdl12:55
wolfsprauldo you have other fpga boards as well?12:55
kyakwe have spartan-3a, spartan sp-605 and virtex ml-605 is on it's way..12:56
kyakprobably can find something from ALtera as well12:56
wolfspraulhe12:57
kyakis there a place for "user" hdl code on milkymist?12:57
wolfspraulwhat do you mean?12:57
kyaki mean, it has hdl soc and then all you got is C?12:58
kyakit's like another layer12:58
wolfspraulyou can synthesize additional hdl next to the soc12:58
kyakah!12:58
kyakthat's exactly what i asked :)12:58
wolfspraulbut it's not well documented yet, so someone doing it and documenting the process would be very valuable12:59
wolfspraulkristianpaul has been doing some stuff12:59
kyakdoes it have a lot of area left from soc (even roughly)?12:59
wolfspraulyes, over 50% I think13:00
kyakso one could make it a "dual core" :)13:01
wolfsprauloh, definitely13:02
wolfspraulespecially since the lm32 core is small13:02
wolfspraulbut it's all work, and nobody on this right now afaik13:02
wolfspraulalright, yum install scilab is running :-) I think I am stupid enough that scilab will be enough for me :-)13:28
kyakit's reasonably enough to taste modelling13:29
wolfspra1lkyak: what kind of systems are you typically modeling?14:02
wpwrakhmm, i'd say there is a bit of competition between open hw projects. e.g., arduino and ben should have a little bit of overlap.14:06
kyakwolfspra1l: typical applications are control systems, digital signal processing and embedded systems.. but there are many more applications14:06
wpwrakand all compete for public exposure14:07
wpwrakso it's in part common goals, in part competition among each other. nothing new really. also ipad and the samsung tab share a similar relationship. only that the companies involved have too much money for lawyers :)14:07
kyakwpwrak: but then, arduino doesn't have a fully-fledged operating system, while Ben doesn't provide the number of IO arduino provides.. so it separates immediately target audience in two parts at least14:08
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/EXPAND: added DIODE (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/969b4d814:09
kyaki'm not sure how i can hook up a DC motor to Ben.. and even if i can, how do i control it?14:09
wpwrakkyak: sure, they're not the same. but they have some overlap. if your application is in that overlap area or if your idea of what you want to do is sufficiently fuzzy, both may appear suitable14:10
wpwrak(hooking things up to ben) UBB ;-)14:10
wolfspra1lkyak: thanks [models]14:11
wpwrakremember, we have stable XGA out on something that's basically UBB. beat that, arduino ;-)14:11
kyakhehe14:11
wpwrakat the moment, i use UBB mainly to program microcontrollers. i have ben-based programmers for silabs (8051), avr, and pic18. they're all little more than a UBB plus a bit of cable. well, unless i want to go fancy and make a luxury version with spring-loaded pins.14:13
kyakwpwrak: did you try generating a PWM signal with UBB? Is it even possible taking we are running linux?14:14
wpwrakdepends a bit on how accurate it has to be. for VGA, i found i had to disable everything else, at the level of effort i put into that (may be possible to let the CPU run a little in the background, but it would need more work)14:18
wpwrakif your timing is less demanding, then you can probably get away with more concurrent activity14:18
kyakwhat was the timing again you achieved for VGA out?14:19
wpwrakyou have distortions at several levels: memory bus contention, cache misses, and then cpu scheduling14:19
wpwrakat 1024x768, the pixel clock was 56 MHz: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/web/ubb-vga-pub-1024-medium.jpg14:21
kyakso if i want to drive my motor with ~490 Hz PWM signal, i can assume it would work? Or you never know untill you try? :)14:22
wpwrakwhat resolution does the duty cycle have to have ?14:23
wpwrakin any case, anything within a few kHz isn't very demanding. you'll need to experiment a bit, though. it's not something the chip is designed to do, so you a bit of lateral thinking is needed14:24
wpwrakjust like ubb-vga pretends to be an MMC device :)14:24
kyakyes, it should be something within few kHz14:25
wpwrakone thing that limits ubb-vga is that it runs entirely in user space. there are some things you can't do there.14:27
kyakspeaking about distortions you mentioned above.. are they also the case if i run my code on Ben in "barebone" mode (i.e. passing control from uboot directly to my code)14:27
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: set pins electircal type to Power input (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/94a5fe514:28
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/1e1555e14:28
wpwrakwell, ubb-vga pretty much does a "barebone" mode ;-) i didn't turn off the cache, though14:28
kyaki see14:29
wpwraki'll need to add a date and hour tag to kicad-libs-components.pdf :)14:29
wpwrakubb-vga still has access to the full linux functionality before and after its pixel-pushing mode. so, for example, i can load the screen content from a file system14:30
wpwrakby not running in kernel mode (although i shut down interrupts and such), i can't halt the cpu until an interrupt happens. that makes my synchonization with timer a few clock cycles less accurate than would be possible14:31
wpwrakbut yes, we're talking about tens of nanonseconds here14:32
wpwrakif you want to have full linux running in parallel, you could arm a timer to fire a bit before the moment you really need it, then busy-wait until the right time. this assumes the jitter (mainly the longest amount of time the kernel is running with interrupts disabled) is below the time between events14:35
kyakok.. this is pretty good! do i understand correctly that UBB pins (all 8 of them) act as GPIO? So we can make them act as digital inputs or outputs14:35
cladamwwpwrak, yes, add data and hour tag as i'm doing DRC. :-) All err I debugged out excepts 66 warnings. well ... it's late here. Needs to fix them next week. :-)14:36
wpwraklars also suggested to try making the whole thing dma-based and even do MMC controller operations via DMA. i didn't explore that. it may give you even better control.14:36
cladamwwpwrak, with data and tag then we can track back if need on checking kicad-libs-components.pdf , tks a lot. :-)14:37
wpwrak(ubb) six of them are full GPIOs. all but one have an internal pull-up. plus, you have VDD which you can switch on or off, but only slowly. (there's a big cap on it)14:38
kyakwpwrak: ok, thanks14:39
wpwrakcladamw: i update the catalog one or twice a day. so if you change anything in the evening, you can be reasonably sure there's an updated catalog by the time you wake up again :)14:39
cladamwwpwrak, hi, alright. Nice. :)14:39
cladamwnight here. cu14:40
wpwrakkyak: VDD has another quirk: the cap is on the wrong side of the switch, so it adds to the inrush current. that's why it's often necessary to "precharge" external devices.14:41
wpwrak"precharge" = disable VDD, drive all I/Os high. wait ~100 ms. then enable VDD. this way, current will crawl through the I/Os and charge the caps on the device side, including the 10.1 uF inside the ben14:43
kyakwpwrak: so if i don't "precharge", i can't use the GPIOs?15:08
wpwrakif you don't precharge, the ben's 3.3 V supply may drop when you enable power to UBB and the ben freezes15:24
wpwrakit all depends on what exactly is connected there, of course15:24
wpwraklesson learned for the ya: that switch should have a current-limiter :)15:25
qwebirc97987Hello there15:31
qwebirc97987Hi15:31
qwebirc97987I want to buy a miny computer15:32
qwebirc97987something like raspberry pi15:32
qwebirc97987could you help me please?!15:32
mthqwebirc97987: what do you want to use it for? and how open must it be?15:40
qwebirc97987ok15:46
qwebirc97987I just want to run some little processes all day15:46
qwebirc97987with it15:46
qwebirc97987and I need a LAN on it15:47
qwebirc97987I want to have a GNU/Linux distribution on it15:47
mthdoes it need its own screen or the ability to connect a screen, or just ethernet?15:48
kyakwpwrak: ok, thanks for explanations :)15:50
qwebirc97987ethernet is enough if I can program it from my pc15:55
qwebirc97987*Sorry for my bad English!*15:56
qwebirc97987*I dont now English very well*15:56
qwebirc97987but it is better to have the ability to connect to a screen15:56
mthBeagle Bone was mentioned yesterday, it has ethernet and probably a way to connect an LCD panel (haven't checked that part)16:00
mthRaspberry Pi might be useful, once it starts shipping in large quantities; the video driver is a binary blob though16:01
mthSheevaPlug is network-only16:01
qwebirc97987mth: thank you very much for your help!16:07
mthmaybe a wifi/internet router might suit your needs as well; some can be reflashed with Linux16:10
mthcheck for example OpenWRT supported devices16:10
AylaI'd say a Raspberry Pi, if you can wait a couple of months16:24
mthtwo months (tm)? ;)16:24
qwebirc97987Alya: are you sure Raspberry Pi is available for next two months?16:29
qwebirc97987How do tou now that?16:29
qwebirc97987*How do *you* now that?!16:30
mth"two months" is a joke about Pandora, who have had trouble actually building and shipping units16:43
AylaI hope the R-Pi team will handle this better17:07
viricthe sheevaplug is quite good17:18
viricnoone here uses sheevaplugs?17:18
viricwolfspra1l: could you get 'openssl speed' running in the milkymist?17:19
Aylaviric, I was about to buy one, then I heard about the rasperry pi17:19
viricthe r-pi has half or a quarter of the sheevaplug ram17:20
viricram is of big vlaue :)17:20
viricvalue17:20
viricAyla: unfortunately, the sheevaplug and the guruplug have awful power supplies. I replaced the capacitors twice, in it17:20
viricbut very compact, at least.17:20
viricit's nice to plug 220V directly to the small computer :)17:21
viricimagine the nanonote with a 220V plug.17:21
viricmth: how is the state of pandora?17:25
viric(I own a gp2x)17:26
viricand then there is that A-10 or so...17:26
viricwhat's the name of that small computer?17:26
kristianpaulnice the excap from dx have right chip !17:54
GNUtoo-desktopviric, I will need a sheevaplug like device soon18:03
GNUtoo-desktopis there a way to get a decent and reliable power supply?18:03
viricGNUtoo-desktop: the capacitors will explode, you just replace them18:04
viricGNUtoo-desktop: or.. it simply wants 5V. Half the sheevaplug is the powersupply, the other half is the computer18:04
GNUtoo-desktopyes but the big problem is that I can't do that if the box is in another country18:05
viricIf you have a 5V 1.5A power supply it should work18:05
viricah18:05
GNUtoo-desktopok18:05
viricThen I would not get namely a sheevaplug18:05
viricthey sell 'dreamplug' too.18:05
viricwhich has a power supply *apart*18:05
GNUtoo-desktopyes but in france hackable devices sell sheevaplugs18:05
viricnot dreamplugs?18:05
GNUtoo-desktopno, I don't think so18:06
viricMaybe they improved the power supply silently... I don't know. Mine has around three years, maybe18:06
GNUtoo-desktopok18:06
viricI know the guruplugs had a lot more troubles18:06
viricand the quickfix they did was to add a fan18:06
GNUtoo-desktophere's my use case18:07
viricGNUtoo-desktop: aren't you writing gnunet?18:07
GNUtoo-desktopI want a private email server18:07
viricI remember a 'gnutoo' from gnunet... maybe I'm confused though. :)18:07
GNUtoo-desktopI tried gnunet once18:07
viricGNUtoo-desktop: I use it as a private email server18:07
GNUtoo-desktopbut it was some years ago18:07
GNUtoo-desktopso to get a mail server I need 2 box18:08
GNUtoo-desktopone here18:08
GNUtoo-desktopand one somewhere else for backup purpose, in case my box here goes down18:08
viricok18:08
GNUtoo-desktopso the mail get delivered to the alternate MX record18:08
GNUtoo-desktopthat would be my use of sheevaplug18:08
viricfine18:09
viricI tried to convince a friend to be a backup mx for me, but we still have not configured his side :)18:09
GNUtoo-desktopok18:09
GNUtoo-desktopfor me it would be my brother18:09
GNUtoo-desktopone day he's ok with it18:09
GNUtoo-desktopand the other day he's not18:10
viricMTA keep trying the sending three days...18:10
viricso I go on just expecting that I'll be able to bring the machine up in those three days ;)18:10
GNUtoo-desktopbtw I need a domain name for it right?18:10
viricyou need mx entries in some domain18:10
GNUtoo-desktopthat's all?18:11
viricdo you plan to run in from a dynamic ip?18:11
GNUtoo-desktopI tought that because of anti-spam rules I needed a more serious domain name than the one I have(dyndns)18:11
viricfor a dynamic ip, the big problem is *sending mail* from it. But not receiving18:11
GNUtoo-desktopbecause I've setup my MTA(exim4) and my mail get refused18:11
viricGNUtoo-desktop: that's quite unrelated to the domain. It's related to your IP.18:12
viricI hire a sending service.18:12
viric(at dyndns btw)18:12
GNUtoo-desktophmmm, but the website that blocked me proposed to unblock my domain name or something like taht18:13
GNUtoo-desktop*that18:13
viricI don't think so.18:13
GNUtoo-desktopI'm not sure they accept gnutoo.homelinux.org18:13
GNUtoo-desktopok18:13
GNUtoo-desktopI'll ask to someone who has everything setup18:13
viricI have everything set up18:14
viric:)18:14
GNUtoo-desktopok18:14
GNUtoo-desktopbut you do not use your own MTA18:14
viricI use it, and it relies to dyndns; because dyndns owns an IP segment18:15
viricthat's what the picky MTA receiving part checks18:15
GNUtoo-desktop<viric> I hire a sending service. 18:15
GNUtoo-desktopah ok18:15
viricI can afford a domain, but I can't afford an IP.18:15
GNUtoo-desktopI think I get it18:15
GNUtoo-desktopyou forward to the dyndns MTA18:15
viricyes18:16
GNUtoo-desktoppersonally I want everything to run on box I trust to bypass my ISP MTA18:16
GNUtoo-desktop(for privacy reasons)18:16
viricGNUtoo-desktop: using your ISP MTA or not using it is irrelevant to privacy :)18:16
GNUtoo-desktopbecause it's not encrypted right?18:17
viricyes18:17
GNUtoo-desktopso all ISP monitor the content of SMTP transfers?18:17
viricthey could18:18
virichaving smtp transfers from your IP may be more suspicious than using the ISP mta ;)18:19
GNUtoo-desktopanyway I've a good associative mail but I prefer having my own mail because my associative mail is limited to 20M and they remove your account if you have more than 100M18:20
qi-botThe build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20120419-1238 18:41
kyakmirko: this build includes qt-4.8.1, you might want to try this if you don't want to build your own --^18:45
mthviric: about Pandora: they are producing at a steady pace now, but not many units per week21:42
mthalso, their costs have risen above the pre-order amount and now they're putting people who pay extra in front of the queue to get more funds21:43
Aylahave you received yours? :)21:44
mthnope21:44
mthI decided not to pay extra, at least for now, until it is clear they can actually deliver to those people who do21:44
mthnot sure what I'll do if they can, maybe I'll pay extra or maybe I'll just wait21:45
GNUtoo-desktopis the pandora keyboard usable for high speed typing?22:07
GNUtoo-desktopI mean apart the size, are the keys ok?22:07
GNUtoo-desktopalso I'm not sure of the software status22:08
GNUtoo-desktopsuch as kernel22:08
GNUtoo-desktopI don't remember22:08
GNUtoo-desktopI think they have a pretty recent kernel22:08
GNUtoo-desktopbut they use the old one because some stuff like oss driver(used for speed) are not there22:09
mththey use a binary blob for GL ES, the rest of the kernel is free afaik, but I haven't checked thoroughly22:11
mththe keyboard has rubber keys afaik, it should be better than most small keyboards, but I don't know how fast you can type on it22:12
mththey have regular distro updates, so I think the software side is actually pretty mature22:13
mththey got the distro builders early units, so they've been working on it for a couple of years already now22:13
mthbut I don't have one myself yet, so all this is from reading news and forums, not actual first hand experience22:18
GNUtoo-desktopmth, if I ever buy one I won't run the binary blob22:21
GNUtoo-desktopI would use meta-pandora without the non-free 3d with oe-core and port some games22:22
GNUtoo-desktopbut honestly I've already too much stuff to do22:22
GNUtoo-desktopso I won't buy one I think22:22
--- Sat Apr 21 201200:00

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