#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2012-04-07

mthlarsc: about the patches to the MIPS mailinglist: should I assume no news is good news, or does no news mean no action?00:03
mthI did Cc: those to Ralf00:03
mthI got reviews of two of the patches and fixed them to address the review comments, the third patch (multi-bank NAND) got no feedback00:04
mththe final patch is the one to make /dev/mem optional, I got the feedback that just making it optional is not enough, it should be made into a module00:04
mthwhich makes sense, I think, but is a lot more effort00:05
mthI plan to have a go at it though00:05
xwalkI'm having trouble with connecting the Nanonote to the network through usb. I get to the point on the wiki where it tells me to ssh or telnet into the Nanonote, but it always refuses the connection.01:12
dvdkhi xwalk01:14
xwalkdvdk: Hello.01:14
dvdkwhat does '/sbin/ifconfig usb0' output?01:14
dvdkand, btw, did yo uset a root password for the NN already?01:15
xwalkI did.01:16
xwalkhttp://pastebin.com/PZWTsadw01:16
xwalkThere's the output of /sbin/ifconfig01:16
dvdkok that looks fine.  01:17
dvdkcan you ping 192.168.254.101?01:17
dvdkand btw what's the output of 'route -n'?01:17
dvdkyour dump even shows RX and TX bytes > 0 for usb0, so I guess you're almost there01:19
xwalkhttp://pastebin.com/U3Fm1033. There's the output of ''route -n"01:19
xwalkAnd yes, I can ping 192.168.254.10101:19
dvdkand doing 'ssh -v root@192.168.254.101' says what?01:20
dvdkbtw route output looks fine, too01:21
xwalkIt logs me into the Nanonote just fine.01:21
xwalk?_?01:22
dvdk:)01:22
dvdkdo you have network manager or some other troublemakers running?01:22
xwalkI'm using wicd on a hacked Debian Squeeze install.01:22
xwalkHacked meaning it's a complete mess.01:23
dvdkwell, next time connection fails, check ifconfig+route and see whether it changes for no apparent reason01:24
xwalkRight. Will do. Thanks so much for helping me.01:24
dvdkno prob01:24
dvdkbtw when running the fw upgrade, you try to not use the 03-28 release which is still pretty "alpha"01:25
xwalkGotcha.01:25
dvdknot broken per se, but  lacks some software that refused compilation on latest new toolchain01:25
dvdkhey, mplayer is working again !!1!02:31
wolfspraulwow :-)02:32
wolfsprauldo we have a good software on the ben to play with discrete sampled values and signal processing?02:37
wolfspraulsay applying windows, filters, conversions, etc...02:38
wolfspraulmaybe gnuplot or octave? I need to try a little...02:38
dvdkha, finally mplayer working with file selector dialog.  02:46
qi-bot[commit] David K├╝hling: mplayer_jz47xx: upgrade to latest version with fixes for latest segfault problem (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/29d17cd02:50
wolfspraulexcellent, thanks a lot!03:00
wolfspraul5 am in Berlin03:01
wolfspraulyou are on a very unique schedule :-)03:01
dvdkadapting to family needs *and* coding needs some creative sleep patterns :)03:03
dvdkthat said, time to get some more sleep hours.03:05
dvdkn803:05
wolfsprauln803:05
dvdkBTW you should try that, too: sleeping 3 hours, then waking 3 hours, then sleeping 3 hours at night.  makes me a lot more productive03:06
dvdk:)03:06
wolfspraulhmm. maybe I try :-)03:08
DocScrutinizernot THAT unique a pattern though ;-)04:48
pabs3whitequark: cool, do you plan to release it?05:12
qi-botThe build has FAILED: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building/Nanonote/Ben/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120406-0154 05:50
xwalkWhen installing xburst-tools for the Nanonote, am I installing that on the host machine or the Nanonote itself?07:57
xwalkAnswered my own question, nevermind.08:00
virichm08:37
viricI just found http://openinkpot.org/08:37
viricgrr how I hate trac.08:38
virichow can I donwload a trac site?08:38
virichttp://git.openinkpot.org/ lots of repositories, most without telling for what.09:41
wpwrakwelcome to the dark side of git ;-)09:41
virici know too many dark sides of git already :)09:52
viricgit takes the worst of every user and makes it public :)09:53
viricLying, history rewriting, forgetting branches, hiding work, ...09:54
viricAnd all while waving a flag "I'm a cool modern developer"09:55
wpwrakt-shirt: "git reveals your inner Sauron"09:55
viricI've heard users saying: "Of course I edit my commits before pushing them. If I made public how I work, that would make look very bad publicly"09:56
wpwrakwell, it's about time we learn a few things from politics :)09:56
viric"make *me*"09:57
viricThere are programmers heavily addicted to git, as it allows them to rework all they did, leaving no public trace of the edit09:57
wpwrakit would also be rather confusing to follow :)09:57
viricAnd then they not accepting any other VCS that was made to keep the history of the development.09:57
wpwraki wouldn't call it an addiction, but of course, once you have the means to clean things up, you use it09:58
viric'clean things up', what an euphemism. :)09:58
viricWe could do the same about Peron ;)09:58
wpwrakwell, with another vcs, you'd just not commit09:58
viricclean things up09:58
virichehe09:58
virichm scratch about Peron. Confusion :)09:58
wpwrak(peron) the "peronist" government put pretty much a Ministry of Truth in place recently09:59
virichehe09:59
viricThat's what I mean09:59
viricGit gives everyone their own ministry of truth :)09:59
wpwrakof course, that's not for covering up anything peron did. saints don't need that. if you questioned peron, what would be next ? maradona ? absurd10:00
viricI've seen git users really ashamed of the way they work10:01
wpwrakwell, the truth still comes out when you push. so it just allows you to split the usual workflow in a private and a public part10:02
wpwrakthey would probably be just ashamed with RCS ;-)10:02
viricno, the 'push' only contains your reworked version of "what happened"10:02
wpwraks/just/just as 10:02
viricSo, I'm clearly in favour of using a VCS *to keep history*10:03
viricnot only as a mechanism of *sharing code* (with no history saving), as git does.10:04
viricThere are VCS who keep history, and also work well for sharing code.10:04
wpwraki don't see a big problem. git simply makes people commit things in smaller chunks - and then they realize the smaller chunks didn't make sense, they have an easy means to correct that10:04
wpwrakif you can't do that, people simply don't commit before they think they're finished10:05
viricIt's a manager of patches10:05
wpwrakso with git, you may get ten small steps. with svn it would be a daily commit.10:05
viricsvn is very cumbersome related to branches10:06
viricof course I don't mean people should not branch. svn makes people not branch, I think10:06
wpwraksvn is very simple with branches. but not everyone likes that kind of simplicity ;-)10:06
viricyes, very simple10:07
viricyou have changes to commit into a branch in your working dir...10:07
viricyou only have to do "svn cp blablacurrentbranch blablanewbranch; svn switch blablanewbranch; svn commit"10:07
viricWith attention at writting 'blablacurrentbranch', so it matches the version you are working *over*10:08
viricvery simple :)10:08
wpwrakcd ../other-branch; edit; svn commit ? :)10:08
viricwpwrak: you did not explain branch creation10:08
wpwrakthat's the approach svn experts recommended to me. or maybe it was an app-roach ?10:08
wpwrakmkdir ;-)10:08
viricno10:09
viricmkdir does not branch :)10:09
wpwrakit does. the directory hierarchy ;-)10:09
viricwell, I mean branching from some files already comitted, not from a zero-files repository10:09
wpwrakyeah. doens't svn cp do that then ?10:10
viricyes10:10
viricI wrote svn cp, you wrote mkdir :)10:10
wpwrakah, svn cp implies the mkdir ? didn't know that10:10
viricyes10:10
viricsvn cp ^/trunk ^/branches/newbranch10:10
wpwraki actually never created an svn branch. used some, though10:10
viricsvn switch ^/brancheS/newbranch10:10
wpwraki don't think i ever used  svn switch, though10:11
viricBut "^/trunk" may not be what are you working on....10:11
viricSo, it's a little cumbersome.10:11
viricNot to mention that there is almost no way of getting a branching/merging graph.10:12
viricwhich I find quite useful.10:12
viricAs the graphs would go per-file, and not per-tree.10:12
viricso10:13
viricwpwrak: when I said some VCS do better at history keeping, I was not trying to recommend svn :)10:13
wpwrakcvs then ? :)10:13
viricas my preference is not per-file graphs (like cvs or svn), but per-tree.10:13
viricThere is monotone, fossil, even mercurial, who do quite a good job.10:14
viricI don't know bazaar.10:14
viricIn any case...10:15
viricThe drug of git spread.10:15
viricAnd every day more and more developers got comfortable in lying and rewriting their history of development before making it public.10:16
wpwrakone thing i rather like about git are its fast local operations. not sure how well the others do in that regard. at least bzr seems to like to "call home" from time to time. not as bad as svn, but still10:16
viricAny DVCS will not call 'home' if you don't tell it to do so10:17
wpwraki really don't understand what you're complaining about10:17
viric:)10:17
viricok10:17
viricI talk about git rebase, for example :)10:17
wpwrakgit rebase -i ?10:17
viric-i, and without -i10:17
viricYou write a commit log for a tree, and then you rebase that commit, while not changing the commit log.10:18
wpwrakwell, without -i it has its uses for keeping branches up to date10:18
viric'merge' can also keep branches up to date.10:18
wpwrakyes, but in a different way10:19
viricIn a way that it keeps the history of what happened.10:19
viricBy rebase, you move things happened before, as if they happened later10:19
wpwrakwhat if you want a patch set you can submit ? then having merge points in the middle makes things messy10:19
viricAnd every commit log then talks about a *different tree* of what it was originally at time of writing.10:19
wpwrakit's still consistent10:19
wpwrakand it's up to you whether you need to update the commit log or not10:20
viricBecause some people then describe in the commit log *the patch*, and not *the tree*10:20
viricAnd git becomes a patch manager10:20
wpwrakwell, i would expect the commit lot to indeed describe the commit ;-)10:20
viricWhile git manuals claim continuously that git makes a graph of "a file tree", and not "of patches"10:20
wpwrakand yes, "patch manager" is precisely the role for which it would be used this way10:20
viricIf you want a patch manager, you could use darcs, which is a VCS based on patches.10:21
wpwrakfile = patch ? :)10:21
viricBut the git graph is not of patches10:21
viricit's a graph of file trees.10:21
wpwrakdetails :) they're still commits10:21
virichaha10:22
wpwrakand a commit is a patch, from a user's point of vew10:22
wpwrakdoesn't really matter how it's implemented under the hood10:22
viricthen where would you claim anything about the state of a file tree, if not the commit log?10:22
viricas in "I tested this, and works"10:23
wpwrakperhaps in a mail asking upstream to pull / merge / whatever ? :)10:23
virichahaha10:23
wpwrakobviously, if you make this kind of claims in the commit log, there's a risk of inconsistencies10:24
viricthen better not to do claims about the tree10:24
wpwrakyou have to decide whether the information is worth the trouble or not10:24
viricAnd once you rebase...10:24
viricHow do you get back in case of wanting to know what happened?10:24
viricThe reflog does not get public10:25
wpwrakwell, human being are pretty decent at dealing with moderately inconsistent information10:25
wpwrakhow do you know the statement was ever true ?10:25
viricwpwrak: I don't know if it was true. But at least context of the statement would be reproducible :)10:26
wpwrakmaybe the committer already lied the first time. maybe he wrote " i tested it" because his boss told him to test it. but in reality, he didn't feel like working late, so he didn't test.10:26
viricif you go that way, we could stop using VCS at all ;)10:26
wpwrakhe was in a hurry to get out of the office because he was going to a party. there, he got very drunk. forgot all about the last few hours. there was nobody else in the office. no chance of reproducing the context.10:27
viric;)10:27
viricYou can also write a novel in commit logs, instead of explaining what you did there :)10:28
wpwraksome people seem to apply that context. particularly surrealists10:28
viricBut I mean that git invites you, in quite enough operations, to unlink the context of the "commit log" assertions.10:28
viricWith no possiblity of going back.10:29
wpwraks/context/concept10:29
wpwrakcan't you rebase back ?10:29
viricback to what?10:29
wpwrakback to the previous base10:29
virichow do you know the previous base?10:29
viricWhat if there were conflicts?10:30
viricits lost. loooost10:30
viric:)10:30
wpwrakgit rebase --abort ;)10:30
viricGit is the only VCS where I lost code. :)10:30
viricdisappeared. shazam. :)10:31
wpwrakchances are it was still there ... just hard to find10:31
virichaha10:31
wpwrakgit rarely loses things. but it's good at hiding them10:31
viricyou have one month of reflog10:31
viricand garbage collection from time to time.10:31
viric(By default)10:31
wpwrakyup :)10:31
viricperfect :)10:32
viricQuoting a friend, /dev/null perfoms better ;)10:32
viricperforms10:32
viricAnd I think next git versions may finally remember the branch names10:33
wpwrakin what way ?10:33
viricin history10:33
viricI don't know how.10:33
viricI heard the claim10:33
viricNow branch names disappear if you remove them (due to a branch being merged910:33
viric)10:34
viricand history only shows a graph of unnamed branches10:34
wpwrakthe merge commit will still tell you what you merged10:34
wpwrakand if it's a fast-forward, then you may simply have had a topic branch10:35
viricand all gets serialiezd.10:35
wpwraknot sure if you can force a merge commit, though10:35
viricserialized10:35
wpwrakthat's often the idea10:35
viricI know10:35
viricI dislike all that :)10:35
wpwraki just gives you more flexibility10:36
viricYou get a serialized graph of commits with dates not matching anything at all the serialisation10:36
viricmore flexibility at the expense of loosing history information of what happened.10:36
wpwrakphew. and if people don't NTP-discipline their clocks, i guess you go around and murder them in their sleep :)10:37
viric;)10:37
abushcrafterfor1dvdk: for the mplayer menu are you using its OSD menu feature?10:38
viricwpwrak: you are addicted ;)10:38
wpwrakif your VCS prevents you from having topic branches, but you want to work undisturbed on some changes, you'll then simply not switch branches or incorporate changes. and you may even cp your files away, update, then cp them back. where's your history then ?10:39
viricgit addicted consider it very normal to hide or edit development procedures before sharing a private development graph.10:39
wpwrakit's nothing i hadn't done with CVS and SVN before10:40
viricwpwrak: what's different between branches and topic branches?10:40
viricgit simply does not have operations to do what you want other than by loosing the history of what you do10:41
viriclosing10:41
wpwraknothing really. "topic branch" just narrows the purpose. i.e., it's work on the main branch, but you branch off it to avoid clashing with changes on the main branch (until you're ready for merging)10:41
viricmany VCS support branches :)10:41
wpwrak"topic branch" is a user-level concept10:42
viricVCS let you use branches for whatever you want10:42
viricbut some require more typing (like svn), but keep history (per-file, not per-tree)10:42
wpwrak(losing history) perhaps you should also ask developers to install a webcam so that you can record how they work10:42
viricwpwrak: haha :) ok10:43
whitequarkpabs3: yes, it's MIT and already on github10:43
wpwraki don't understand why you insist on preserving history that the developers don't want preserved10:43
whitequarkpabs3: http://github.com/whitequark/furnace-avm2.git10:43
viricPublishing the history of the files you work on is an attack against privacy.10:43
wpwraksee :)10:43
wpwrakalso, when i try to follow development, i prefer a clear line10:44
viricgit not only allows you to keep some things private. The git code sharing models I've seen invite you to keep your development private.10:44
wpwraki don't really want to know all the small mishaps that occurred along the way and how they were reverted10:44
wpwraki want to know the final solution that was finally found worth keeping10:45
viricthat's the matter of a viewr.10:45
viricviewer10:45
whitequarkviric: what do you think is the goal of DVCS, making code access more convenient or preserving some random sequence of actions no one cares about?10:45
wpwrakit's a matter of not wasting my time :)10:45
viricrandom sequence of actions?10:45
whitequarkyes, exactly10:45
viricWho talked about random sequences of actions?10:45
pabs3whitequark: cool, thanks10:45
wpwrak(git code sharing) yeah, the pull model has that effect. but it's just one possible model.10:45
whitequarkpabs3: just curious, what do you want to use it for?10:46
viricwpwrak: I've some complaints against git, lacking some features. But most of my complains go to that way of using git :)10:46
viricwhitequark: you consider your development 'random sequence of actions'?10:47
pabs3whitequark: nothing right now. maybe in the future it might be useful for adding support for some website to get-flash-videos10:47
whitequarkviric: in essence, yes. "git rebase" allows you to take your commits and rework them in a way which actually makes sense from a logical perspective.10:47
whitequarke.g. "one encapsulated change" = "one commit"10:48
wpwrakviric: i find that my development often consists of actions based on a lack of comprehension10:48
whitequarkthat greatly helps with reviewing, bisecting, searching bugs, viewing logs and whatnot10:48
wpwrakviric: there's very little value for others to follow my through process at that level10:48
wpwraks/through/thought10:48
whitequark^ that.10:48
wpwrakwhitequark: exactly :)10:49
viricwell, it's clear where we disagree. I think it is of great value to have the history of what happened.10:49
viricThere is no reason to destroy that.10:49
whitequarkviric: I gave you a reason10:50
wpwrakviric the historian ;-)10:50
viricwhitequark: presenting a development and the history of the development could be both stored.10:50
pabs3whitequark: whats this abcdump.abc file?10:50
whitequarkpabs3: an ABC bytecode dumper, compiled from Tamarin sources10:51
whitequarkhttp://hg.mozilla.org/tamarin-central/file/fbecf6c8a86f/utils/abcdump.as#l107710:51
viricYou could present what you want others to care of your development in the log of a merge, without destroying the history of what you did. But git addict peoples *first* think on destroying what they did, and then think out how to present it anew.10:52
whitequarknow you're making personal attacks10:52
virichaha10:53
whitequark(not that I care)10:53
viricwell, I already said that I'm against how many users use git.10:53
viricnot against the software. :)10:53
whitequarkand on merges... when bisecting or reading log, you don't pick a giant merge and then dig into how it works10:53
viricAgainst, in a sense that I dislike that approach to sharing code.10:53
whitequarkyou just read the descriptions for the commits which do actual work10:53
viricI understand, yes.10:54
viricYou take the graph of commits as if it was a way to show a development, and that can be unrelated to how you did the development.10:54
whitequarkcan you suggest a reason for preserving exact development path?10:54
whitequarkalso10:54
whitequarkwhat should I do if I accidentally committed 110MB of .o files in?10:54
viric:)10:55
whitequarkor a bunch of non-free patent-covered code10:55
whitequarkor whatever10:55
viricThe VCS software should let you do all you want.10:55
viricfix those cases, too.10:55
viricBut I don't think it should *invite* to destroying how you did the development.10:55
whitequarkviric: what value the data about "how did you do the development" has?10:56
viricThe effect of that is that some developers get addicted to that model, and then they get ashamed of showing their development publicly10:56
wpwrakzero10:56
whitequarkwould you also suggest to store the data about disk drive head moves in the DVCS?10:56
whitequarkjust because you can10:56
wpwrakor perhaps even negative, because you may rely on that "information"10:56
whitequarkand hey, it's DATA! let's preserve it10:56
viricYes, I consider the history has some value10:57
whitequarkwhat value?10:57
whitequarkfor what could it be used?10:57
viricin understanding what you did one thing or the other. But well, you can also go on writing misleading commit logs too, and then have no value in that10:57
whitequarkin real world, that is. for what business task would you use it?10:57
viricIf you do 'random commits', there is no value.10:57
viric:)10:57
whitequarkpeople generally do mistakes most of the time10:57
wpwrakif there was something important you learned in the process, then you should document it. a VCS that preserves every keystroke would invite you to not do this, because the "information is already here"10:57
whitequarkhence, commits are generally random10:57
viricok10:57
whitequarkhint: visualizing the history of project developing, or, I dunno, tracking the count of code lines written by each developer, or something like that is not a business task10:58
whitequarkit doesn't add any value to your work10:58
whitequarkfor a FOSS project a "business task" could be considered as some task which could help it gain more users10:59
whitequarkor compete better with non-free replacements10:59
viricclear, I understood about the value of random commits, and I agree.11:00
whitequarkwhat we're writing software (including FOSS) for? sharing the source? actually no, that's just a way to do it more effectively. we write software to do real work.11:00
whitequark(if someone thinks that he should write a piece of software exactly for sharing the source, you're unfortunate enough to get gcc.)11:00
viricMaybe it is that I consider my commits (and those of who I work with) not that random11:01
whitequarkviric: ok, let's only look at "non-random" commits11:01
whitequarkwhat the history of these commits could be used for?11:01
viric1) I think it helps understanding the situation in case of troubles11:01
wpwraka typical case would be that you do thing X. then you realize that X doens't solve the problem properly, and you do Y instead. now, if you think it's likely that someone else would also think X is a good or maybe even better solution, you should write a comment right there.11:02
viric2) It can allow others to understand ways of finding solutions to problems11:02
viric3) And it can help others not feel shame for their way of working11:02
viricI'm hitting more and more cases of paranoid people who don't accept anything other than git due to '3'11:03
whitequarkso, basically, you state that a VCS must store the code in such a way that novice developers could learn from it, and force everyone else to do their work in a way which would help these novice developers?11:04
wpwrakperhaps you;re misinterpreting their motives11:04
whitequarkbecause 1. is solved by debugging, not digging into VCS logs. if you have a piece of code which doesn't work, you insert some checks in it and see where did it go wrong.11:04
wpwrakwhitequark: it sounds more as if he's asking for the VCS to keep tons of useless information around, making it harder to find the relevant information11:04
whitequarkwpwrak: I'm trying to understand the motive11:04
wpwrakviric: do you read all your mails ? including the spam ? :)11:04
viricI would almost not call git a VCS, but a code-share system11:05
Action: whitequark facepalms11:05
wpwrakwhitequark: maybe we just have to wait until the drugs wear off :)11:05
viricWell, I think I'll leave the talk in disagreement :) we have all different motivations11:05
whitequarkwpwrak: ROFL.11:06
whitequarkI'll just go destroy some history11:06
virichehe11:06
viricyes, noone should care on the random commits :)11:06
whitequarkI can't even imagine what would happen to Linux if the commits in it would be like you're suggesting11:06
whitequarkbecause when I ported it to a some MIPS device, I did a ton of different commits over several weeks, and shared that with others who tried to hack on it too11:07
whitequarkonly maybe 10% of that code was useful enough to get into the final version11:07
whitequarkand I have spent a lot of time rewriting it into a form where each commit was self-contained and you could actually read it and get what would happen when you apply it11:08
whitequarkbecause otherwise it was a huge heap of intermingled parts of different experiments11:08
whitequarkand I'm quite sure it's not just me who cannot develop good enough software^Wcommits11:08
viricwho goes to the linux git and wants to see "how is linux developed"?11:09
whitequarkerm. what?11:09
viricI mean11:09
viricI think of use cases where people want to know about the development of a very particular piece11:09
whitequarkwhen my device hangs instead of going to sleep after some commit, I go and bisect it11:09
whitequarkthen I find the piece of code which caused this11:09
whitequarkI want it to be a carefully written 5 lines of code with 10 lines of description which tells me everything about how it works11:10
viricWe have too separate visions to make them common in a short time :)11:10
viricI leave the talk for another day :)11:10
whitequarknot a 100+ line diff with all the shit which was in the head of developer and some babbling instead of comments11:10
whitequarkok11:10
wpwrakwhitequark: in fact, with viric's approach, you'd most likely hit a branch you later rejected11:12
wpwrakwhitequark: bisecting assumes a perfect world of linear development. reality is different, but still close enough that bisecting is often useful. if you kept all the junk around, too, then that would rarely be the case.11:13
wpwrakwhitequark: of course, you could keep the junk around AND tell your vcs what the things are that you finally kept, but i doubt a lot of people would make the effort of keeping this sort of information in good shape11:14
whitequarkmost of people just commit all the junk to git and don't care11:16
whitequarkand this is SO annoying11:16
whitequarkin 80% FOSS projects, notably those with 1-2 developers, commit logs are of no value at all11:17
whitequarkprecisely because of the no-rebase approach11:17
wpwrakif you're a good upstream for them, you then simply send them back for cleanup :)11:17
whitequarkthat works for kernels, or maybe for gcc11:18
whitequarkin the world of web-development it doesn't. people either really don't understand/know how to use good programming practices, or don't have enough time to do the right thing11:18
wpwrakwell, web-development ... most of that is bottom-feeding anyway ;-)11:19
whitequarkbottom-feeding?11:19
whitequarkyou mean the model of consuming content in web?11:19
whitequarkI don't care about the web itself in this context. I'm talking solely about the development of software to drive the web.11:19
wpwraka lot of the work that goes into presenting that content11:20
whitequarkweb is moving fast11:20
pabs3both are horrible11:20
whitequarkway faster than you can keep with and write good software11:20
whitequarkthat's why we have PHP, for example11:20
whitequarkor consider Rails, my framework of choice. it's somewhat good; for example, at one point the core team decided to take a break and spent a year on major refactoring11:21
wpwrakmany things have no need to move fast all the time. eventually, your core functionality will settle. or you're screwed anyway :)11:21
whitequarkit was a very good decision.11:21
whitequarkRails itself and a bunch of libraries (less than half a dozen) which are used very often are written really good11:21
whitequark80% of other software associated with it (plugins, tools, etc.) definitely isn't11:22
whitequarkand this is a good statistics if we take the overall web-related software11:22
whitequarkin this case it happened this way because, I think, some Ruby features make you stop for a minute, think about what you're doing and then write some good code, because otherwise it just won't work good11:23
whitequarknah. just take a look at node.js.11:24
whitequarkall of the former jquery monkeys use it. you can see the result.11:24
whitequarkwhen you're a "jquery programmer" (hint: it's like "boost programmer" for C++), it isn't any good11:25
qi-bot[commit] kyak: mplayer: get rid of X11 runtime dependency (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f76d69211:28
viricalso the linux desktop evolves fast11:34
viricthe peaceful world of nanonote does not follow it...11:34
viricbut there is dbus, udev, devtmpfs, consolekit, policykit, upstart, systemd, ...11:34
whitequarkand if you'll put these things on NN it would be out of RAM even before it could start a login shell11:35
whitequarkdbus+consolekit+policykit+systemd+pulseaudio would easily exceed 32MB of ram.11:35
viricI think all that makes the system harder to understand11:36
whitequarkyes and no11:36
whitequarkdbus is a bit more complex than each of distinct incompatible IPC methods in different apps, but it's standardized and now everyone uses it11:36
viricthen extended acls, containers, creating namespaces, capabilities, cgroups, ...11:36
whitequarkunderstanding dbus 1 time is easier than understanding 10 simple IPCs 10 times11:37
lindi-viric: one large problem is that many admins do not want to learn these11:37
whitequarkwell, the truth is: OS are complex, because tasks they must do are complex.11:37
viriclindi-: well, these are new things to learn, and some of the things that have been, don't last long11:37
whitequarkit's not a fake complexity out of nothing, these are solutions to real-world problems11:38
lindi-viric: so they can not debug them when they do not understand how they work11:38
viricyes.11:38
lindi-viric: yep, you need to be motivated to learn and play with them to master them11:38
lindi-just reading some documentation can never be enough11:39
viricthat's far more complex than init rc scripts, not hotpluggable devices and normal user permissions for files and processes :)11:39
lindi-viric: depends. if you start from nothing then shell scripts are confusing too11:41
DocScrutinizermooo11:41
lindi-viric: but of course they have the benefit that you can ask your friend11:42
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: it's 15:40 here. should be something like 12:40 where you live. morning? :D11:44
Action: DocScrutinizer patches hi screen with postit notes "cgroups!" "namespaces" "containers"...11:44
DocScrutinizer~ugt11:44
infobotsomebody said ugt was Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html11:44
DocScrutinizerduh, useless effort, she's on your /ignore iirc11:45
whitequarknope11:45
whitequarkI'm not wolfspraul or whoever here hates bots11:45
DocScrutinizerlindi-: :-D11:45
lindi-well you just filled my entire screen yes :(11:46
DocScrutinizersorry11:46
Action: DocScrutinizer shuts up and wandes off11:46
Action: DocScrutinizer ...while wondering about lindi- 's screen size11:47
whitequarkDocScrutinizer:  > Resistance is futile. Your ass will be laminated.11:48
whitequarkI prefer my ass in its current state...11:48
DocScrutinizermhm11:49
DocScrutinizercontext?11:49
whitequarkhttp://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html11:49
DocScrutinizerduh11:49
whitequarkreminds me of USB11:51
whitequarkas in here: http://all-that-is-humor.com/usb/11:51
DocScrutinizerdang friggin 24h disconnect11:55
DocScrutinizerif only this brick of crap D-Link DR-615 could get openwrt, or at least do telnet, or at very least do proper scheduling for IF state11:57
DocScrutinizerit can 'up" the DSL interface for 1 minute a day, but not "down" it for a minute11:57
DocScrutinizerso my disconnect moved from 6am to almost 2pm during the months11:58
whitequarkthe day I got rid of DSL was one of the happiest in my life11:58
DocScrutinizerwhat now?11:59
whitequarkethernet11:59
DocScrutinizero.O11:59
whitequarkwhat?11:59
DocScrutinizeryou got a cat5a cable to your flat?11:59
whitequarkyes11:59
DocScrutinizerWUT?11:59
whitequarkit's a common service here. half of ISPs work like that12:00
DocScrutinizerincredible12:00
whitequarkthey just put a bunch of routers at the rooftop12:00
whitequarkfast and easy12:00
DocScrutinizerhahaha12:00
viricyes I always liked that approach12:00
whitequarkbuildings are connected via the same 5e cable (for bad ISPs) or fiber optics (good ones)12:00
DocScrutinizercool12:01
viriceach building is managed by only one isp?12:01
viricor each isp has its own 'room' at the roof? :)12:01
whitequarknope. I have two who connect with 5e cable, several DSL ones and one who works via cable TV12:01
whitequarkthat is, in this building12:02
DocScrutinizerdang, throwing cables under the pavement must be really cheap at yours12:02
whitequarkcable TV ISP is incredibly bad (NAT, proxying, Vac/2 on the cable shield)12:02
whitequarkthe DSL ones are 50/50, DSL rarely exceeds 10 Mbit/s and the telephone cables weren't replaced from 1970's in most places12:03
whitequark5e is the best12:03
DocScrutinizerhey, so you get electric power for free ;-P12:03
whitequarkonce someone with that ISP asked me to fix their internets12:03
whitequarkfirst thing I did was frying their modem by accident12:03
whitequarkI, err, touched the computer case with USB shield12:03
whitequarka huge spark was the result12:03
DocScrutinizerdang!12:04
DocScrutinizerfreakin scary12:04
whitequarkI wasn't surprised12:04
DocScrutinizeryou tried to connect a toaster? ;-)12:04
whitequarkin 90% of buildings there is no grounding whatsoever12:04
whitequarkand in half of the rest 10% there is grounding in sockets, but the ground lane is basically dangling in air12:05
whitequark(I may have messed up all the terminology.)12:05
DocScrutinizerbwahaha12:05
DocScrutinizersounds like south of spain12:05
whitequarkI bet it's other way around12:05
whitequarkas "south of spain sounds like SOVIET RUSSIA!!1"12:05
viricwhitequark: use your pipes as ground12:05
DocScrutinizeryeah12:05
whitequark(soviet russia) the first 90% of buildings weren't repaired since then12:06
whitequarkviric: sure, I know that :)12:06
DocScrutinizerand 100% weren't during12:06
viricI remember the electrical problems in some subway of moscow, some years ago, 12:06
DocScrutinizerexcept maybe lenin mausoleum12:06
whitequarkhehe :)12:07
viricthat should have been fun, for the engineers....12:07
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: (room at the roof) let me find you a picture...12:07
viricI imagine the engineers in front of *metal* rusted boxes full of cables covered by textile isolators (in the best case)12:07
viricunderground with a pocket lamp.12:07
DocScrutinizerviric: were the rats shooting with lightning?12:07
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: http://imglink.ru/pictures/21-12-11/fa9446a755cbbf6968839f10e8ae144e.jpg12:08
whitequarkthis is an extreme case12:08
whitequarkbut not at all impossible12:08
viricwhitequark: the 220V part looks quite good :)12:08
DocScrutinizerHAHAHAHAHA12:08
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: another problems with rooftops12:08
whitequark1) homeless people12:09
whitequark(who sometimes steal 5e cables and trade them for alcohol)12:09
DocScrutinizerI bet they never have connectivity issues ;-P12:09
whitequark2) old ladies who think that engineers are actually burglars in disguise and want to steal their cats12:09
whitequarkthe ISP I'm currently at doesn't do anything like that12:10
DocScrutinizerI gather those old ladies have kalaschnikov12:10
whitequarkAFAIK they have several Cisco's with fiber optic inputs12:11
whitequarkand proper mounting and whatnot12:11
DocScrutinizeror sth their husband vrought home from WW-I12:11
whitequarkin each building12:11
whitequarkWW-I lol12:11
whitequarkyou're overestimating lifespan of people12:11
DocScrutinizeraah yes12:11
DocScrutinizerso, their father12:11
whitequarkactually no, they just call the police12:12
whitequarkand engineers now have another PITA to worry for12:12
whitequarkjust in the case homeless people and rat shit was not enough12:13
whitequarkand pigeons.12:13
DocScrutinizerEEEW pigeaons12:13
whitequarktons of them12:13
whitequarkand pigeon shit. and dead pigeons lying in pigeon shit.12:13
whitequarkand cabling in all of the above12:13
DocScrutinizerI prefer 1000 rats over 50 pigeons12:13
whitequarkrats, too.12:13
whitequarkand have I mentioned homeless people?12:13
DocScrutinizerthey should place that tech crap into the junk-room of the old lady, and pay her with the free energy from cat5 shielding ;-D12:16
whitequarker12:16
whitequarkjunk-room?12:16
DocScrutinizerwell, didn't find the right english term12:17
DocScrutinizerthe small room where you stow away your broom and shit12:17
DocScrutinizersome flats have such a room12:18
whitequarkdon't think we commonly have these 12:18
whitequarkoooh, let me show you how my router is placed12:18
DocScrutinizerthen place it into a 75cm 19" rack, throw a tablecloth over it and put a TV (IPTV ;->) on top12:19
DocScrutinizerthe old lady will love that arrangement12:19
DocScrutinizerand every other day the friendly engineers drop by and she can chat with them :-)12:20
whitequarkthey will think that the equipment is damaging her brain with evil rays12:20
whitequarkbtw, I am serious12:20
whitequarkbehold: http://imgur.com/Tthcy12:20
whitequarkthe cable at the top was damaged by builders, so it's only used as a support12:21
DocScrutinizerlooks quite nice, and I guess your antenna gain is optimal12:21
whitequarkand when it was lying on the shelf it tended to fall from it12:22
DocScrutinizerthat's why a lot of stuff is placed on the floor here12:22
whitequark(antenna gain) once I seen an antenna which was looking perfectly good from outside, but had nothing inside12:23
whitequarklet me check...12:23
DocScrutinizerLOL12:23
DocScrutinizerprobably sb stole the cable, to sell the copper12:23
whitequarksomething's clanking inside12:24
whitequark(it refuses to disassemble)12:24
DocScrutinizerjust the locker is a bit awkward to open12:25
qi-bot[commit] kyak: ben-cyrillic: add phonetic keymap (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/6240d2217:22
wolfspraulI read on the kicad list that they have committed the new board/layout file format23:45
wolfspraullet's see how that goes23:45
wpwrakwhoa ! let's see what they write ...23:56
wpwrakokay, write-only so far. but it seems that they plan to keep both formats around for now. that's good.23:58
--- Sun Apr 8 201200:00

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