#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2012-04-02

wolfspraulMartix: good morning :-) you still there?00:28
Martixwolfspraul: yep00:28
wolfspraulkristianpaul: you probably saw that rtlsdr has made some more rounds, on slashdot, reddit, etc00:44
wolfspraulMartix: oh, hi, didn't see :-)00:44
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yup00:44
wolfsprauland people have trouble finding a good source :-)00:45
wolfspraulsince I bought from the factory, I am sure I can get the right thing, and they are definitely not 'out of stock'00:45
wolfsprauland won't be, no matter how many sales come in00:45
kristianpauloh wow00:45
kristianpaulare you interesting in re-sell? ;)00:45
wolfspraulwell of course. the factories produce as much and as long as there are orders.00:45
wolfsprauloh no, definitely not00:45
wolfspraulit's already there, just some layers of mostly language confusion00:46
wolfspraulsome reseller will pop up00:46
kristianpaulsure, just  confirming00:46
wolfspraulplus in no time, an even better option may appear00:46
wolfspraulhopefully people will really buy and start diving into sdr land, to learn about the details that really matter00:46
wolfspraulI focus on milkymist, I know we are on a good path there. no time for rtlsdr right now.00:47
kristianpauli bet for it,afaik for that price lets hope is not a just a sold-out season00:47
wolfspraulbtw the reference design comes from Elonics, not Realtek00:47
kristianpaulfor the whole package?00:47
wolfspraulall under NDA, industry-typical... Elonics is a UK company00:48
kristianpauloh sure00:48
wolfspraulsure, the real work is typically just done in one place :-)00:48
wolfspraulso Elonics makes the reference design, one Chinese company buys it or gets it for free under NDA, then lots of other Chinese companies get access to the files in one way or another00:48
kristianpauldiving into sdr land, yup that should be the path00:48
wolfspraulthe only people who don't have the reference design are law-abiding foss citizens :-)00:49
kristianpaul:-| ...00:49
wolfspraulI don't have it either and will not try to hunt it down, or sign the NDA. just fyi.00:49
wolfsprauland neither embark in a reversing process, again too much time and milkymist/qi focus00:49
kristianpauli'm aware of people claiming already signing it..00:50
kristianpauloh no, reverse no sense now00:50
wolfspraulthere are not many secrets in the reference design anyway00:50
kristianpaulwhat matters is stack, i think osmocom have some sdr primitives already, 00:50
wolfsprauljust a lot of tweaking and tuning, which is the hard part and important if you want to make your own product00:50
kristianpaulthats when osmo-sdr came to life :)00:51
wolfspraulbut seeing that the Elonics tuner is so closed, well, one day hopefully we can find more openly documented chips00:51
kristianpaulperhaps, indeed00:52
kristianpaulor at least more documented driver, wich is the value i see from osmo-sdr too00:53
wolfspraulMartix: I saw the CuBox on your conference program, is it interesting?00:54
Martixwolfspraul: it's alternative to Raspberry Pi and Beagle Bone, but speaker is still waiting when CuBox and Raspberry Pi arrive, but it should be week before conference00:56
wolfspraulwhat's good about it?01:01
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I thought this was a nice 3min *intro* video into the rtl2832/e4000 dongle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUQd9HOVTk801:03
wolfspraulnothing much in it, but it shows the first steps and throws in some terminology that may make people want to go further01:03
kristianpaulah yes i saw it01:04
kristianpauli hope more people get in to gnuradio too,01:04
kristianpaulto be honest i never get it a try nothing, as i dont owned a usrp or receiver hw01:05
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: what? :)01:05
DocScrutinizerjust hah01:05
DocScrutinizerprobably I was happy to finally know why I'm not asleep 3 hours before getting up01:05
DocScrutinizeralso I thought maybe the chip isn't all that closed, it just lacks a 1200pp book about signal processing01:07
kristianpaulwhen do you sleep? :)01:07
kristianpaulbook, good point !01:08
wpwrakor maybe both :)01:10
kristianpaulbut if the driver can manipulate both internal PLL and LNA, what else is missing?01:11
kristianpaulbesides the signal processing book :)01:11
DocScrutinizer51I think a proper sdr is more than a PLL and a LNA01:16
DocScrutinizer51you'll at very least need a ring modulator and a highspeed D/A A/D as well01:17
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: the thing is only a receiver01:18
DocScrutinizer51then you don't need the DA01:18
wpwrakit would be difficult to make this information any less detailed ;-)01:20
DocScrutinizerwell, the ring modulator is called "mixers" there01:33
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: removed 74AUP1G08GW,125 from diodes_inc.lib (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/75930c901:51
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/c5dea1001:51
wpwrakcladamw: i have some doubts about the scalability of the approach you've chosen for some of the schematics symbols02:23
wpwrakcladamw: there are those that refer to a unique component, e.g., the audio codec. there, it makes sense to have one specific symbol for that part02:25
wpwrakcladamw: but then there are those that are more or less generic. e.g., diodes. they may come in a number of different packages, but the number of pin variations is still quite small02:26
wpwrakcladamw: so there are a lot of parts that can all use the same symbol. and the symbol should have a generic name, not just a vendor part number02:27
cladamwcurrently I don't have common idea on using 'same' specific symbol for parts's usual goal. for the one of audio codec is the beginning one of this time first doing. which is worse idea of my latest using a vendor chip name to include them.02:28
wpwrakcladamw: now, i know that some people use a different approach and have basically one symbol per vendor part, with all the fields already set, and so on. but i'm very sceptical about the scalability of such an approach, since you'd have gazillions of duplicate symbols02:29
cladamwsince there's few columns of 'properties' can fill up real p/n and description. 02:30
wpwrakthe audio codec is okay. it's probably the only part with that pinout anyway02:30
cladamwha....i finally still using this idea is :02:30
cladamw1. when user try to edit schematic, which information he should look for ? actually the p/n is rather than a specific symbols.02:31
wpwrakthe design should start with generic concepts. e.g., a p-FET instead of a specific diodes inc. part02:32
cladamw2. if we spend much time to find a 'specific' common smybol to corresponding to all same like AND /XOR gate then he doesn't need to find libraries/database to find 'good' AND gate symbol for his goal.02:33
cladamw3. your specific unique 'symbol' is good /convience to passive parts or non -active parts., for ic chips, you are hard to let people know which on is which one.02:34
wpwraka universal AND gate wouldn't be possible with how kicad works, because each symbol needs to define all pins of the component. would be nice, though ;)02:34
cladamw4. for audio chip , i'm thinking even using wolfson.lib instead the p/n.lib02:35
wpwrakoh, sure. for complex chips, MCUs, codecs, FPGAs, and so on, you definitely want a specific part02:35
cladamwfor examples now.02:35
wpwrakbut there are more generic ones, e.g., diodes, diode arrays, transitors (BJT, FET, etc.), transistor arrays, gates, groups of gates, etc., where you have many packages with equivalent topology and also several vendors02:36
cladamwyou collected many '74x1g***'.lib which user needs to scrolling and find what it looks like while placing parts or find it in Library Editor to see it.02:37
wpwrakand in many cases also different parameters. e.g., a 741G00 will look pretty much the same in HC, HCT, LV, ...02:37
cladamwbut if we gave them a real p/n, yes, it will create a lot of database(symbols), but it's easy to get part in schematic editot. ;-)02:38
wpwrakand also a diode often doesn't look different in the schematics when it's 10 mA or 10 A :-)02:38
cladamwyes, i know, the real questions are we don't need to collect so much HC, HCT, LC, LVC now. :-)02:38
wpwrakyes, once you've found it among the millions of parts, then it's easy ;-)02:38
cladamwso you already collected much of them. :-)02:39
stratman2Has anybody got mac os/x to talk to Ben?  USB port where Ben is connected to, is not being recognized on my PC when I load a CD boot of linux. The Mac sees the Ben, so I guess next step is to get CD boot of MAC os/x (don't want to install linux on the mac). Other thing to try is just bite the bullet and get another PC and install linux, but want to avoid that - I am trying to update Ben with latest version of linux..02:39
wpwraksure. but we should pick a structure that will not require a full reset when the library grows02:39
cladamwwhen people edited parts, they may think if the part is COMMON, like HC, HCT, even etc...yes they are. :-)02:39
cladamwbut for reset IC ? usb power switch ?  do you think that all chip vendors they will share their own pins assignments to a "Unique" one, the answer is probably not. ;-)02:41
cladamwfor now, I'm thinking to if adding spartan-6 into xilinx.lib? 02:41
wpwrakfor things like 74xx1Gxx, we could use a semi-generic structure. here's an illustration: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/out.pdf02:42
cladamwi don't have good idea now. since KiCad has included a same name library called "xilinx.lib" and there's one spartan-6 'XC6SLX25T-BG484' existed there already.02:42
wpwrakif you open Logic > Single >, then you have a number of 74x1g07_* parts. they differ by the number of pins.02:43
cladamwyeah....yes, I agreed on those very few older generation chip TTL, CMOS, etc for collecting ic symbols.02:43
cladamwi agreed your ideas on that, but you still can't deal with those usb power switches, reset ics, etc....02:44
wpwraki think reset ICs are semi-generic. the question is if you have a specific symbol for them :)02:45
wpwrakusb power switches may be unique enough that it doens't make sense to try to generalize them02:45
cladamwfor the audio codec, I think that I'll go back to create a wolfson.lib for WM9707...02:45
wpwrak(xilinx) i would not touch the kicad libs. we should get rid of them. they're full of inconsistencies anyway02:46
wpwrak(inconsistent font sizes and so on)02:46
cladamwKiCad does a real inconsistent symbols for spartan-6, it must not contributed by their community, since the best one is to follow current M1's 'bank' catagories to divide parts.02:48
wpwraki'd rather have one library per symbol (more or less. sometimes that doesn't make sense, but it's usually possible)02:48
wpwrak(1 lib per sym) the reason is that it's easier to track revisions that way. and you have a lower risk of commit conflicts.02:49
cladamwyeah...so I just first created a name xc6slx45-2fgg484c.lib locally, not using a same name as 'xilinx.lib'02:49
cladamw(1 lib per sym) violates ( specific symbol per old TTL/CMOS. etc.)02:51
wpwrakdoes it ? how ?02:52
cladamwfor our spartan-6 p/n, now it violates (symbols collected per vendor name)02:52
cladamwphew ~02:52
wpwraklook in kicad-libs/components/, there's 74x1g07_4.lib, 74x1g07_5.lib, ... :)02:53
wpwrakon lib per symbol. and three different symbols for the 74x1G07 family of gates (one for packages with 4 pins, one for 5, etc.)02:54
cladamwyes, you are with the same way to get roma to build a lot of symbols, a quite way same as mine to collect all p/n for one vendors.02:54
wpwraki wish kicad would let us treat them as a generalized 74x1G07, but that may be a bit difficult. and it may be confusing02:55
wpwrakah, but each of these applies to many vendor parts02:55
cladamwwell. well...i won't touch your existing 74x***....  you can imagine that how we need to build own components.lib ?02:56
cladamwif I tried to find 'unique' symbol name into components for those parts in M1, then how much time i need to spend ?02:58
wpwraki only need a new 74x1G07 when i find one that has a different pinout. e.g., in a package with a different number of pins or a different assignment of functions to pins. but further package details, the family, vendor part naming schemes, etc., don't affect the symbol02:58
wpwrak0.00001% of the time you'd spend later duplicating things indefinitely ? ;)02:59
cladamwwe should have thought long term vs. short term way to go for it. I would say that specific / unique symbol is good but not suitable for every chip. :-)03:01
wpwrakit's mainly the simple things that have alternatives03:01
cladamwfor example, when i met connector, i skipped and ignored to create new one.03:02
cladamwso i also agreed yours. ;-)03:02
wpwrakextreme example: resistors. you wouldn't want to have one symbol for each vendor part number. or would you ? :)03:02
cladamwsure. 03:02
cladamwthat's the same 'Relativity' both you and me created. :-)03:03
cladamwalso for example, how big compatibilities that audio codecs can meet and drop to place with the same symbol or footprint together ? it's very few. so i created a real p/n for it.03:05
wpwrakthings like reset chips are a bit borderline. there are lots of reset chips that all look very similar. but they may have different names for the same function, depending on the vendor03:06
cladamwbut in the else fields, a SOT-23-3, it could be diode, led, reset ic, etc...they could be the same footprint but not same symbol name in each pin.03:06
wpwrakso for reset chips, i think either way is fine03:06
wpwrakyes, agreed with audio codecs. complex chips can't have a "generic" symbol03:07
wpwrakdiode, led, transistor, etc., all have different circuit symbols03:07
cladamwso when we build footprint, the 'specific' or 'generic' will be much the same approach to this way. 03:07
wpwraklet's not confuse circuit symbol and package03:07
wpwrakno, not at all. think of the resistors again :)03:08
cladamwyeah,,,so when i created these days , i was also confused myself a bit. but in the end i still created the same symbols as vendor chip's drawing. ;-)03:08
cladamwyeah... i think that we agreed on "not confuse" circuit symbol.03:09
cladamwi will always think a bit when creating a new symbol. Also find if KiCad has it already or not. ;-)03:10
wpwraki think a good test is if you think what part you'd use for this function. if you first have to go to digi-key to find the most common one, then the symbol should probably be generic. e.g., DVI connectors may have very little variation03:12
wpwraksimilar for USB. for USB < 3.0, the only thing that varies is the number of ground pads. so we should have one symbol for each ground configuration, and that's it. (if you look at the current library, it isn't structured like this yet for USB, because i didn't understand this pattern until recently)03:15
cladamwbtw, do you know that why i didn't use your '74X1G08_6.lib' for M1's '74AUP1G08GW,125' ? since liked i said last week, i think that the best top view for chip pin name is to keep the same pin arrangement. ;-)03:15
wpwrakwell, we can have two variants. sometimes, you want to put more emphasis on the function, sometimes more on the physical appearance03:18
cladamwi'd rather to try make a symbol now to keep visually same orientation/top viewing from now on. then when user debugging, don't need to open datasheet to find it. Just look it at schematic. :-)03:18
wpwrakyou lose when it comes to big chips :)03:18
cladamwagreed. :-)03:18
wpwrakSoCs, FPGAs, ...03:18
cladamwagreed too.03:18
wpwrak(view) you could of course open the layout :)03:19
cladamwso when created SoCs etc, then we build them same as datasheet said. :)03:19
wpwrakfor MCUs, i usually take the physical view. mainly because i assign functions according to where i expect things to go in the layout03:20
cladamwwhen build M1 symbols nowadays, i dislike them now. maybe the same feeling from you for mine. :-O03:20
wpwraki haven't looked at the symbols yet :) so far, i'm only commenting on the general structure of the library03:22
cladamwM1's U2[ksz8001l] and U21[adv7181c] is good (same pin direction). :-)03:22
cladamwsure. the general structure i agreed. :-)03:22
cladamwM1's all others symbols[ bad and not easily to read] when debugging... as you know, for SoC, FPGA, the best to to seperate their functional pins as possible. :-)03:24
wpwrakthis may be more a tool problem than a symbol design issue03:25
cladamwmmm... if there's one, it would be good.03:25
cladamwso i think when chips's total # is under 48 pins, or 64pins, the best rules for creating symbol is:03:26
cladamw1. to keep pins assignments as same as chip's outline layout top viewing. 03:27
cladamw2. find a exiting already generic/specific frequent symbols, people know already, like TTL, COMS, etc...03:28
cladamw3. but 2) at best to follow 1) as possible. some how in current electronic symbol drawing violate rules we expect above. ;-)03:29
wpwraki think it depends on what you want to show. also don't forget that symbols can be mirrored in the schematics. then it can't match the footprint even though it follows the physical layout.03:30
wpwrakbtw, in kicad, you can launch eeschema and pcbnew on different screens. when you click on a pin in the schematics, the cursor in pcbnew will jump to it03:34
wpwrakand vice versa03:34
cladamwyeah. :)03:35
qi-botThe build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20120331-2358 04:17
DocScrutinizeron component libs: it might be useful to just "steal" from standard libs but actually create a generic symbol for each part type in BOM and put all in one QI.lib05:00
DocScrutinizerthis way you can have all the parameters of your component in the lib and use it as well for spice and whatnot05:01
DocScrutinizerand you have one pretty small lib to ship to user, instead of a plethora of vendor specific libs, plus your own tweaked versions of those when the original doesn't meet yout requirements05:03
DocScrutinizercreating BOM was a straightforward task then05:12
DocScrutinizerbasically your lib with all the symbols *is* your BOM05:12
DocScrutinizeryou could argue if you want to follow this approach even for plain vanilla 0402 resistors05:13
DocScrutinizerbut then OTOH why not05:14
DocScrutinizerin the end it's just a copy from another (standard) lib to your QI.lib for each component you include to your schematic05:15
DocScrutinizeror a pick/edit/paste action, to add the particular component properties05:16
DocScrutinizernothing terrible in doing that for 33R, 47R, nnnR. You have to do it *somewhere* anyway05:17
DocScrutinizeryou could use 2 libs: an archive lib QI_we_had.lib plus a QI_we_recently_have.lib05:18
DocScrutinizerbig advantage: all your components are of a uniform style. This usually isn't the case when you use vendor libs05:19
DocScrutinizerfor the idea to match fotprints - it's a generally odd idea. You rather have symbols especially for huge components where you place all your pins in a way you get nice legible schematics. There's simply no use in somehow showing pinout in schematics05:22
DocScrutinizere.g. when your MICP and MICN inputs of audio chip create a need to cross their lines in your schematic, then you simply swap them for that particular codec symbol so your lines don't cross anymore05:24
DocScrutinizerso you usually would have a number of single named pins as entities for all chips with >16 pins, and you place those into arbitrary boxes in any way you like. For things like 7400 4 NAND gates, you'd have 4 entities of one gate for the component and you place each gate wherever you like05:30
DocScrutinizer(single pin entities) sometimes it makes sense to group pins even then, e.g. for buses05:31
DocScrutinizeras you definitely don't want "pinout" in schem like "d0 d3 d1 d2"05:32
DocScrutinizersame might go for interfaces like SPI, I2C etc05:32
DocScrutinizerif you could have "macro" components consisting of several layers of sub-components down to the individual pin, and you may group and ungroup at arbitrary levels of that hierarchy, that would be really nice05:34
DocScrutinizereven nicer though, if you can have alternative hierarchies (trees) on the same pins (as leaves) for the same component, and switch between them05:35
DocScrutinizere.g some pins may have alternative primary function Addr17..32, secondary camera-IF05:37
DocScrutinizeryou'd like to group these pins in two alternative predefined ways, so "user" can switch between the version of subtree he wants to use for that particular set of pins05:38
DocScrutinizerfor simpler components like 7400 4*NAND you frequently find orphaned "spare" gates somewhere on a separate sheet or in a dark corner of schematic, when the EE used this approach. I always thought this is a very nice and clear way to document things05:40
DocScrutinizerand one more argument to do it this way: you definitely have best data to run design rule checks against your design05:41
DocScrutinizerno outputs of unused gates accidentally tied to GND or VDD, just because they were "forgotten" in schematics.05:43
DocScrutinizerooh yes, and of course each 7400 also has a VDD and a GND pin entity. You usually place those next to the gates if all 4 gates are used on same sheet. You place them on a separate power sheet when there's no better place for them05:46
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: kicad lets you have multi-part symbols. it doesn't let you rearrange their pins, though.05:57
DocScrutinizerhmm, also multi-multipart?05:58
wpwrak(vendor libs) you mean the default kicad lib ? there are problems with that one. so it's better if we replace it. it also has only very few parts, so it's not an insane amount of work05:58
wpwrakno, just one level. you're free to duplicate, though :)05:59
DocScrutinizerwon't fly for my idea of implicit alternatives :-/05:59
DocScrutinizerand for rearranging pins/sub-parts - that's pretty bad restriction06:00
DocScrutinizerI don't get what you mean by vendor lib = kicad default lib06:01
wpwrak(one sym per part) i've heard of that approach. i think it's insane :) how long until you have all sorts of inconsistencies because something was changed without updating ancestors/children ?06:01
wpwraki was asking what you call a "vendor lib"06:01
DocScrutinizerwhich children?06:02
wpwrakyou mean a library where we group parts specific to a single vendor ? why would that cause inconsistencies ?06:03
DocScrutinizerif you're going to change all your resistors from 0402 to 0603, then of course you have quite some components symbols to change. You had to do exactly same amount of editing in BOM anyway, if you don't do it in CAD compnent lib06:04
wpwrakchildren = items derived from the parent item. e.g., BOM entry from sym. "derivative sym" from "master sym". etc.06:04
DocScrutinizerhell, I mean the VENDOR libs that come from vendor. I don't suggest we create a xilinx lib for the one chip we use from them06:05
DocScrutinizerwtf is a sym component?06:05
DocScrutinizerhow would it change?06:05
wpwrakare you sure xilinx provides kicad symbols ? :)06:05
DocScrutinizerdamn, I'm short in time, sorry. No spare time for fun talk06:06
wpwrakhurry to work ! :)06:06
DocScrutinizerthere's no such thing like master sym and child sym. At least I don't see any06:06
DocScrutinizerwe won't go change all R from US to EU symbol06:07
wpwrakwell, that would be one such change :)06:07
DocScrutinizerif you wanna do this, you need a clever editor06:07
DocScrutinizerread: sed06:08
DocScrutinizeror even awk06:08
wpwrakbut it can be something smaller. like adjusting a font size. or just a small correction in a symbol. or a global style adaptation.06:08
wpwrakso instead of having to edit a few dozen symbols you get to edit millions. not nice.06:08
DocScrutinizerif global styles are embedded in particular symbol definitions, then you already have a huge problem06:08
wpwrakthat's precisely the lack of scalability that makes EE such a mess :)06:08
wpwrak"global style" can mean the grid you use. or how long you make pins.06:09
DocScrutinizerplease don't exaggerate in such an extreme way06:09
wpwrakwell, look at it :)06:10
DocScrutinizerwe're not building big blue here, end even that one has no separate schematics for each of the NNNNN nodes06:10
DocScrutinizerso no way we get beyond 1000 or 2000 components *total*, many of those are same 100R06:10
wpwrakthe goal is a shared library for everything in the qi-hw universe (and beyond, if anyone wants to reuse it)06:10
DocScrutinizerso what06:11
DocScrutinizerexactly what I suggested06:11
DocScrutinizerif that changes, you have to change all sorts of lists anyway06:11
DocScrutinizerso why not change the lib instead, and autogenerate the lists06:12
wpwrakit's not only what we currently have but also what we may want in the future06:12
wpwraknaw, one symbol per part stands the workflow on its head06:13
wpwrakwhat you have is typically a set of characteristics06:13
DocScrutinizerper kind!!06:13
wpwraksometimes, that's just one specific part (e.g., a specific SoC)06:13
DocScrutinizermaybe your workflow. evidently there are other workflows, in "professional" EE06:14
wpwraksometimes, it's a gazillion of parts that all have the same symbol. e.g., resistors06:14
wpwraki know that workflow you're describing exists06:14
DocScrutinizerwhere your design rule checks would warn you that this component isn't sourced yet, etc06:14
wpwrakbut it's not the only one06:15
DocScrutinizernow it's even gazillions WTF°!06:15
wpwrakwell, N(different types of resistors) :)06:15
DocScrutinizerI still can count all the component part entities of M1 in half an hour on schem06:15
wpwrakprobably a few 100k at digi-key alone. maybe a few ten k in our database06:16
DocScrutinizerlet alone the number of different ones06:16
wpwrakperhaps we should continue this when you don't have to run to work :)06:16
DocScrutinizeryou need a 95.73kR. You check what you're using for R now, find the part at vendor in the series, and clone a symbol for it in your lib. Case B): no such part in vendor series, you find another vendor, andother R, you create a new symbol, where you borrow from whatveer you feel fit06:18
DocScrutinizerthe overhead compared to editing your stock lists, your BOM, your whatnot, is marginal06:19
wpwrakwhy clone ? you use the common R symbol and fill in the parameters you want. done. no need to update the global (!) component library (or create a project-local clone, etc.)06:19
wpwrakthe BOM is auto-generated from the parameters06:20
wpwrakthat's what boom does :)06:20
DocScrutinizerthe global(!) has an exclamation mark only because you like to put it there. No other sound reason06:20
wpwrakwe can capitalize it ;-)06:20
DocScrutinizermeh, you don't like my concept, because your tools do it differently, and the tools define what can and should be done in which way. Fine with me06:21
DocScrutinizerOK, enough gfun talk eating my time06:22
DocScrutinizera last quick remark: neither OM nor any of the "spinoffs" has ever wrapped their heads around two basic things: design rule checks, and JTAG boundary scan06:31
DocScrutinizerI suggest you try to find out why big companies use both methods06:31
wpwraknot sure what you mean by "Design Rule Check". the EDA tools we use have checking functions and we use them (of course)06:32
wpwrakyou're right with JTAG, though. i did some boundary scans in ben-wpan, but with a non-JTAG approach (no JTAG available)06:33
wpwrakM1 has semi-automated functional test. but they're not at such a low level06:36
wpwrakand wolfgang doesn't even want automated current monitoring during tests :)06:37
wolfspraulI want to make small incremental improvements that help a user *now*06:38
wolfspraulas opposed to being in lab-mode the next 100 years or longer :-)06:38
blogicwpwrak: where can i find your collection of footprints again ?06:38
blogici finsihed my bom and am now figuring out which footprints i need to draw06:38
blogicparticularly i am looking for a bga84 ddr2 footprint06:39
blogici found the link to your kicad patches06:39
blogicbut i am failing to find the footprint store06:39
wpwrakblogic: footprints are here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/source/tree/master/modules/06:40
wpwrakblogic: no large BGAs or DDR there, though06:40
blogici tried to figure out how fped works last night06:41
blogicdid not advance that much though ;)06:41
blogicwill spend more cycles on it today06:41
wpwrakblogic: (more cycles) good :) people generally find it easy to learn. surprisingly easy, actually06:42
blogicactually i was wondering last night if it somehow does not work properly on my machine06:43
blogichave you tried it inside awesome WM ?06:43
blogici had the impression that the WM was causing issues, as in mouse click seamed to be getting lost06:43
blogicwill investigate more today06:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: hopefully < 100 years :) but one prerequisite for introducing such things rapidly would be a bit of a budget for buying instruments. else, we'd have to support the whole zoo that's the installed base06:44
wpwrak(awesome) first time i even hear of that :)06:44
wpwrakthere shouldn't really be any problem with the window manager. fped keeps things _very_ simple.06:46
blogico i need to do anything magic to place a pad ?06:49
blogici am only able to add vectors somehow06:49
blogicanything else i click on will always default back to the "select and move" tool06:50
wpwrakyou need two vectors to form a square or rectangle. then you inscribe the pad.06:50
wpwrak1) vector (1mm, 1mm)06:51
wpwrak2) vector (-1mm, -1mm)06:51
wpwrak3) select pad, then go to the endpoint of the first vector, click and drag to the endpoint of the second vector. release and the pad is there06:52
wpwrakclick on the pad to select. then you can edit the name or change the type06:52
Action: blogic tries06:52
wpwrak(type) normal = normal pad; bare = without solder paste; trace = covered by solder mask; etc.06:53
wpwraknow you can change the vectors and the pad will adapt06:55
blogicand paste is with paste i assume06:55
blogicit was too simple ... i was looking for the magic ;)06:55
wpwrakpaste is just solder paste. you can use it to construct things. e.g., a pad that's only partially covered by solder paste (like the center of QFNs)06:56
wpwrakhehe :)06:56
blogicwpwrak: i need a central pad on a lqfp12806:56
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: DRC I basically mean sth like spice integrated into CAD06:57
wpwrakblogic: you may find these QFNs useful: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/source/tree/master/modules/qfn.fpd06:57
blogicyes, saw them06:57
wpwrakblogic: and here is a description of how they're constructed: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/source/tree/master/modules/INFO06:58
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: to do this level of design check you need better data of a component than only "33 Ohm"06:58
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: ah yes, that's something we're looking into just now06:58
wpwrak(better data) especially if using wire-wound resistors ;-)07:00
DocScrutinizerindeed, which brings you from your unified R component concept to a "one definition per component kind" concept07:04
DocScrutinizerI'm all for inheriting properties in a parent-child design, if it's versatile enough07:05
DocScrutinizerbut in the end you want a definition entity for a class of identical components in your design07:05
DocScrutinizerand identical (again) doesn't mean "it's a resistor"07:06
wpwrakyou mean "equivalent" parts ?07:06
DocScrutinizerit means "resistor wirewound 33R 1/4W"07:06
DocScrutinizer(plus a few other properties, for "spice")07:07
wpwrakthat's basically what the parameters do. they restrict what components can be used. if any additional characteristics are known, they're then picked from the parts database07:08
wpwrakso you have all that information (that is, if it's generally available. not sure if inductance and such are readily available for, say, chip resistors), but it comes after the schematics07:09
DocScrutinizerwell, I can continue discussion for next 30min, just with off times in between07:15
wpwrakand i should get a bit of sleep :)07:20
DocScrutinizer51ok, when  your global lib has all the components like nn R n mW <type>07:29
DocScrutinizer51I just wonder how you're ding said change US-EU symbol *then*07:31
wpwrakthe database has things like this: PANASONIC ERJ-6ENF16R9V FP=0805 P=1/8W R=16.9R T=R TC=100ppm/K TOL=1% V=150V07:33
DocScrutinizer51and a link to a common symbol, or symbol directly attached?07:34
wpwrak(T=R is the key that identifies this as a resistor. i didn't distinguish resistor constructions yet. should eventually, though)07:34
wpwrakno no, this has nothing to do with symbols07:35
wpwrakthis operates off the BOM generated by the schematics entry program07:35
wpwrakthis BOM has component reference, footprint, and any parameters the user cares to specify07:36
DocScrutinizer51you'd want to unify BOM and schem07:36
wpwrakthen boom looks for matching parts. of these, it picks the cheapest07:36
DocScrutinizer51I could come up with a dozen instances where footprint determines schematic symbol07:37
wpwrak(cheapest generally means "common". if you need something fancy, then you'd have to specify how it differs from what boom dug out)07:37
wpwrakoh, sure07:37
DocScrutinizer51ok, afk now, prolly til brunch break07:39
wpwrakbut it's also often an 1:N mapping (often with corner cases making it N:M)07:39
wpwrakfrohes schaffen ! :)07:40
wpwrak(i don't think this has a good translation)07:40
cladamwwpwrak, have you edited several parts in per parts in KiCad ? i.e. using "Parts are locked" to be checked. :-)13:23
cladamwi only did once in avt2 for jz4720.13:23
wpwrakyou mean a multi-part component, like the FPGA ?13:24
cladamwwpwrak, yes! :-) Do you know how to create different graphic rectangle to the component body in different sub-part ?13:25
wpwrakyou can basically draw completely different things for each sub-part13:26
wpwrakwe used this extensively in gta02-core. lemme find it ...13:26
cladamwwhen i checked that icon "Parts are locked", f.g. I edited 'part A' with A size rectangle, but the graphic will still be placed in part-[B:F] which is not the right for the 'check' purpose. :(13:27
wpwraki'm not sure what "parts are locked" does13:28
cladamwand I imported KiCad's original one multi-part components. But they are different size rectangle.13:28
cladamwwith "parts are locked" being checked, means the changes in current sub-part will not influence to other sub-part sheet.13:29
wpwrakwhat you're looking for may be the "Edit pins per part or body" button, top button row, the last on the right13:30
cladamwyes, right, that's one. :-)13:31
wpwrakhmm. svn,openmoko.org seems to be down. no examples from gta02-core then :-(13:31
cladamwif it's locked, any changes on current sub-part won't change else sub-part. 13:31
wpwrakif you select 'edit per part", yes13:32
pabs3wpwrak: hardware issues, hopefully back soon13:32
cladamwwow... :( that's bad news for gta02-core. 13:32
wpwrakcladamw: almost all the good stuff has been salvaged into qi-hw by now anyway :)13:32
cladamwhopefully i can get find msg in KiCad-users email threads. :)13:33
cladamwwpwrak, qi-hw is qi existed here and there! Good! :-)13:34
wolfspra1largh. next time it's up we really should copy anything from gta02-core that still has value13:37
cladamwwpwrak, i used the same rectangle size for sub-parts in avt2. this means I needed to arrange a suitable expected size for them. But for creating huge SoCs or FPGAs, it may hard to. It must be some settings steps or editing steps in Library Editor. :(13:41
DocScrutinizer51wpwrak: svn.om.org supposed to be up after move to new iron13:47
DocScrutinizer51agni was down, and Roh didn't bother to reboot some of the vservers after hetzner swapped the NIC (or whatever). He told me it's scheduled for after the 'big move'13:48
DocScrutinizer51wpwrak: you could ping roh about it13:55
DocScrutinizer51roh: ^^^13:57
wpwrakwolfspra1l: well, i have a local copy of the svn ;)13:58
cladamwwpwrak, nice ... not sure if it's the s/w version problem. :) see http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-users/message/1144213:58
wpwrakcladamw: you don13:58
wpwrakt have to make them all the same size. they can have pretty much any shape13:59
wpwrakpabs3, DocScrutinizer: (svn.openmoko.org) so it's a self-healing problem then. good ;)14:00
wpwrakcladamw: ah yes, be VERY careful if not in "edit per part" mode ;-)14:01
cladamwwpwrak, oah...sure...i tried to make different shape firstly but failed. :( Since even changes are in sub-part will all copy to else sub-parts no matter i check it or not. phew ~ 14:01
wpwrakcladamw: i once submitted a patch that would prevent just this sort of collisions, but they considered it a feature to have them ...14:01
wpwrakcladamw: no, changes in the sub-part will not be propagated to the whole.14:02
cladamwwpwrak, yeah...i tried many times with success. I hope there's fix in maybe later version. 14:02
wpwrakdon't hold your breath. i did that patch more than a year ago ...14:03
cladamwwpwrak, you can try to edit a new rectangle in part-A, then you can see else sub-part to confirm. :)14:04
wpwrakactually no. that's when i checked it into eda-tools/kicad-patches14:04
wpwrakthe original is from gta02-core and dates fro ...14:04
cladamwmine is Build: (2010-08-11 BZR 2448)-unstable14:04
cladamwso means i need to install patch ? :-)14:06
wpwrak... april 2010, i think14:06
wpwrakthe patch probably doesn't work anymore. just keep things properly separated :)14:07
cladamwmmm...alright. later now. I'll surf more tomorrow or send message to KiCad-users list. phew~14:09
wpwrakuntroubled dreams ! :)14:13
wolfspra1lwpwrak: is this a serious issue?14:16
wolfspra1lI am just reading from the distance, but when I see Adam wanting to go to the kicad-users list to ask for bug fixes/improvements, I worry a little whether our m1-to-kicad conversion will ever finish...14:16
wpwrakwolfspra1l: it's more a nasty surprise. once you've figured it out, you can work around it14:17
wolfspra1lI think first step I will uplevel the patches tomorrow, that's a good exercise anyway. plus then I can compare with the behavior Adam is running into.14:17
wolfspra1lah ok14:17
wolfspra1lgood :-)14:17
wolfspra1lwhat's a realistic timeline until the entire m1 schematics & bom is in kicad?14:18
wolfspra1l2 weeks?14:18
wpwraki'm a bit more worried about what they've done to block operations in eeschema. particularly dragging seems to be quite unusable. but may i just haven't figured out the right way to do it yet ...14:18
wolfspra1lhave you tried the most recent trunk?14:20
wpwrakhmm, probably more. one week for the symbols, maybe two weeks for transferring the schematics proper (there may also be some iterations), and one more week for assorted cleanup14:20
wpwrak(latest trunk) yes. the same14:20
wolfspra1lah ok, the timeline doesn't sound too bad14:24
wolfspra1l[latest trunk] oh well14:24
wpwrak(timeline) assuming there are no big gaps for other things. e.g., i don't know what workload the layout creates.14:25
wpwrakbut yes, in general, this type of transfer isn't too nasty. we'll have to unify the style a bit soon. but i think it's best if adam familiarizes himself with kicad a bit more first. the style changes i have in mind aren't too hard to implement anyway. particularly if we avoid rampant redundancy ;-)14:28
Aylaxmth: it's probably solvable, but I don't want to waste hours working on it14:32
AylaxOD has been delayed enough IMHO14:33
Aylaxmth: sorry for responding on the wrong channel...15:16
qi-bot[commit] kyak: fix previous commit disabling USB_SUPPORT (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/ead188f15:25
kyakAylax: there is a problem somewhere between 1f955e523358796189db503e624788d5337c15a3 and 8da20f4ef36484a66e5d490f66c39c64e1d149ab commits to gmenu2x15:37
kyak1f955e523358796189db503e624788d5337c15a3 works just fine on Ben15:38
kyakwhile 8da20f4ef36484a66e5d490f66c39c64e1d149ab starts, but when i select an icon and press Enter, nothing happens15:38
MabYwenit's not a bug15:38
kyaki see there are some commits regarding a "Touchscreen"15:38
MabYwenit's a feature :-D15:38
kyaki think i need to solder a touchscreen to Ben immediately :)15:39
kyakMabYwen: seriosly, do you have more information about that?15:39
MabYwennot really15:39
kyakor do you need more information from me?15:39
MabYwenmy ben runs jlime atm15:40
kyakxiangfu: if you happen to read the log, please read ten lines above :)15:41
Aylaxkyak, I'm on my phone right now, I'll take a look at it tomorrow15:48
kyakAylax: sure; if you need any additional information, just let me know.. Though i would be able to help only tomorrow in the evening 15:50
Aylaxkyak, anything has changed on the keymap file?15:51
kyakAylax: the keymaps are the same15:56
mthkyak: when you say "nothing happens", does that mean you can go on and select different icons? or does gmenu2x hang?16:28
kyakmth: let me double check16:29
kyakmth: it just hangs16:32
kyaki can't even go to terminal by pressing Ctrl-Alt-Fx16:32
kyakmth: when the screen goes blank after some time, i can't unblank it16:34
mthit should unblank as soon as a key is pressed16:35
kyaki know16:35
kyakbut it doesn't16:35
kyakso the keys don't reach gmenu2x after i selected an icon16:35
mthah, the unblank after selecting an icon, not unblank in general?16:36
mthcan you log in with ssh and check if the selected process was started or not?16:36
mthit could be an issue with launching or it could be an issue with who is using the frame buffer16:37
kyakyeah, i press an icon, it hangs, then the screen goes blank, and i can't unblank it16:37
kyakand i can't use ssh atm, that's another issue :)16:37
kyaki'm working on it..16:37
kyakmth: this problem is 100% narrowed down between the two mentioend commits16:38
mthdid the system get an SDL upgrade recently by any chance?16:38
kyakas soon as i revert that and build the package, it works as usual16:39
kyakno-no.. it's the same system.. just two different versions of gmenu2x16:39
mthok, so the old commit works on exactly the same set of libs?16:39
mthif you have the time, a git bisect would be really useful16:40
mthgmenu2x is still working as expected on the Dingoo, so this is not an obvious bug16:41
kyakwhat is git bisect?16:41
mthit's a way to do a binary search between two revisions16:42
mthit will pick a revision in the middle and let you tell it whether the problem is in that revision16:42
mthrepeats that until the guilty revision is found16:42
mththere is a git command ("git bisect") that does all the administration16:43
kyakok, but what do i search for?16:43
kyakthere are just a couple of meaningful commits between the mentioned two16:43
kyaki think it is already narrowed down16:43
mthfor the first revision that doesn't work16:44
mthit's somewhat narrowed down now, but there is still at least 3 commits that are likely to contain the problem plus the chance that an unlikely commit is responsible16:45
kyakok, i'll tell you the exact commit then :)16:45
kyakjust bring the ssh back../16:45
virickyak: for git bisect, you run it between a revision A you know is good, and a B you know is bad.16:45
viricAnd git proposes a revision to test.16:45
viricYou have to tell the outcome: works or not. Then it proposes another...16:46
viricuntil it tells you: the culprit is this checkin.16:46
kyakhow does it (git) know what to proposed?16:46
kyakand how does it check that the problem exists?16:46
viricbinary search between A and B, in the direction based on your answer16:46
viricYou search, and you tell git if the proposed version works or not16:46
viricBy proposed, it means it leaves your checkout in a state for you to test16:46
kyakok, this would make sense perhaps in a branchy tree.. this is much easier to just change the git hash in openwrt Makefile, rebuild, and reinstall on Ben16:47
viricscrap 'you search' :)16:47
viricAh ok, as you wish16:47
mthah, if you don't have a gmenu2x checkout then it's a different case indeed16:48
viricWell, git will tell you the hashes to test.16:48
viricWhether you use the checked out files, or any other means, it does not matter. git only wants you to tell: hash X works or not16:48
virickyak: its algorithm is meant for you to do the minimal amount of tests.16:49
viric(hence why it is nice)16:49
kyakviric: i got you..16:50
mthkyak: if you're going to test manually, the revisions I suspect are: 57ad81e3dfcead9c090bbe45bb7072a5c7d78415, 0043ea59094ed48cd444fd8564665286b76c8c89, 4ae4fc675e352148ba71f3be027c6c6a13d6746816:50
viriceven mth can run the bisect, he tells you the hash to test, and you kyak tell him the outcome :)16:50
mththe last two are close together, so the a good split point would be just after those16:51
kyaki got ssh working, thanks to jow16:51
viricwhat or who is jow?16:51
kyakthis is my imaginary friend16:51
kyakjust kidding :) the openwrt developer, jow_laptop16:51
viricjow_laptop is a person?16:52
mthso I would suggest 0043ea59094ed48cd444fd8564665286b76c8c89 as the first revision to check16:52
kyaki was missing shadow passwords support in busybox.16:52
viricdo you use dropbear?16:52
kyakmth: so it doesn't crash.. the process is there16:52
kyaklet me check the 0043ea59094ed48cd444fd8564665286b76c8c8916:53
mththat's weird, since the fb related commits are before the first commit you mentioned and would need a new SDL to do something16:54
mthwhich SDL version do you have?16:54
kyak0043ea59094ed48cd444fd8564665286b76c8c89 works fine..16:57
kyakmth: 57ad81e3dfcead9c090bbe45bb7072a5c7d78415 is the commit causing problems17:09
kyak2d81b13459f092e7178d78d70922b2a743b3b534, being the previous commit, works fine17:10
mthok, I'll investigate further17:15
kyakok, thanks17:16
qi-bot[commit] kyak: config.full_system: enable shadowed password for busybox (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/53d162c17:22
viricDocScrutinizer51: the president of hungary left the charge?17:36
DocScrutinizer51heard sth like that17:36
DocScrutinizer51my colleagues all got andridiot phones with some newsfeeds17:37
wpwrakviric: apparently due to plagiarism17:38
DocScrutinizer51probably the completed all his dark plans17:38
viricwpwrak: It's amazing that a president leave the charge voluntarily for such a thing.17:38
viricHere it looks totally unbelievable17:39
DocScrutinizer51esp THIS president17:39
viricI can only imagine such a situation with the president laughing, and saying "haha yes, sometimes that's the best to do"17:39
viric(for Spain)17:39
DocScrutinizer51though I dunno if I even mean the president17:39
wpwrakviric: here, they would probably pretend not to notice17:40
viriceither that, or even be proud of the achievement17:40
DocScrutinizer51I hope that totalitarian asshead is the president who let17:40
wpwrakviric: that's better, agreed17:40
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: to be replaced by a more totalitarian bastard ?17:41
viricwell, italy and greece have presidents not elected17:41
viricit's the new european trend...17:41
viricvoters and elections are sooooo old17:42
viricthey make the coup d'etat, saying "it's urgent; we'll let you play democracy later"17:42
viricbut it's amazing how neighbouring countries of that supposed 'union' make as if that was totally normal17:43
viricand these europeans then go to UN, and say: this american government is totalitarina, this african too, bla bla17:43
viriclessons of democracy.17:44
mthwe don't have an elected president ever... the queen is the official head of state and the prime minister is selected by elected people but not directly elected17:47
wpwrakmth: better keep politics out of the dirty hands of the unwashed masses17:48
mthwpwrak: the thing is that most people here like the queen, even if they don't agree with having a monarchy17:49
mthif there will ever be an impopular king/queen, I think the system would be reformed very quickly17:49
mthbut there is no urgency right now17:50
wpwrakmonarchs are useful. they can be decorative, give your country a touch of the splendor of a golden age long lost, their private lives provide endless material for the yellow press, and if things turn really sour, you can use them for quite spectacular beheadings.17:54
LunaVoraxHello everyone!20:20
LunaVoraxNo wonder why you're on the two channels Aylax 20:24
LunaVorax56 + 30 people in total only one person awake :D20:24
GNUtoomany more people may be awake20:35
viricha. I just discovered Documentation/input/joystick-parport.txt21:00
DocScrutinizerthere's a lot more to discover around there21:24
mthviric: I built a DB9 to partport cable once to use MSX joysticks under Linux21:36
mthit works fine21:36
viricI have quite enough of those old pads21:37
viricNow it's parports that get scarce :)21:37
kristianpaulviric: next partport is UBB :)21:37
viricyes, we need gamecon for UBB!21:38
viricDocScrutinizer: today I added an option to NixOS to have memtest86+ at grub menu easily... and just discovered that linux has the "memtest=X" option21:38
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: alpy: fix package meta information (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7b7663123:48
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: new package alfilelsel: graphical file selector dialog for scripts and gmenu2x (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7fca78523:48
--- Tue Apr 3 201200:00

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