#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2012-03-25

qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: plplot: fix compilation on latest openwrt toolchain (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/2fb5cdb00:30
wpwrakkristianpaul: the ones i use the most are straight and angled tweezers01:20
wpwrakboth with pointy ends01:20
wpwraki use the straight to pick up components and the angled one to position them and to hold them down while soldering01:21
whitequarkkristianpaul: +1 on tweezers advice04:02
whitequarkand get the ones with _really_ sharp ends04:03
whitequarkand preferably a good, hard steel04:04
whitequarkthe combination of these two factors is best for tiny smd components.04:04
whitequarkI use these http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=81 and these: http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=8904:05
qi-bot[commit] kyak: kbd: update upstream URL (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4b456f311:00
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: wpwrak: any news about mickey? 12:09
DocScrutinizer[2012-03-25 14:06:43] [Whois] mickeyl ist seit 52 Tagen, 14 Stunden, 3 Minuten und 43 Sekunden untätig.12:09
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: I don't know, but since he had a kid maybe he just left active voluntary coding for now?12:42
wolfspraulfirst priority is kid, second priority make money for family, and after that pretty much the only desire is sleep :-)12:42
DocScrutinizera bit concerning though12:42
DocScrutinizerhope he's well12:42
wolfspraulwe should definitely assume so12:43
DocScrutinizergood :-)12:43
wolfspraulwell, I am guessing, but since he had a kid I'd say that's most likely the reason12:44
wolfspraulhe's really gone everywhere? no more irc/chatting, no more commits, no more conferences, no more nothing?12:44
DocScrutinizerabove is whois info12:44
DocScrutinizerI dunno more than that12:44
wolfspraulI don't know exactly what this whois monitors.12:45
DocScrutinizerhe has annoying habit to use ~25 different nicks12:45
DocScrutinizernone of which except mickeyl is logged in to #openmoko-cdevel12:45
DocScrutinizerwhois monitors last post 12:46
DocScrutinizer(or possibly other activity as well)12:46
DocScrutinizerI'll scan the chanlog12:46
DocScrutinizershiiit we got those unbearable nlsu logs on #om-cdevel, not the nice searchable povbot/mgedmin logs12:48
DocScrutinizerso sorry but I have no clue if some mickey* logged in last 50 days, or posted something12:49
wolfspraulhe will reappear12:49
DocScrutinizerwhois doesn't take wildcards, for obvious reasons12:49
DocScrutinizerwell, there's an issue with om infra, one machine seems down. do you by any chance have an idea what's the supposed status of git.openmoko.org?12:51
wolfspraulthe big picture is known for years, and I'm sure nothing changed12:51
wolfspraulit's unfair to repeat the same analysis over and over again for years12:51
wolfspraulwhat is the point?12:51
wolfspraulwe have started Qi years ago among other things for the reason that it was very hard/impossible to *continue* with Om in a culturally compatible way12:52
wolfspraulthe analysis that the infrastructure is very maintenance heavy and that there is really nobody willing to take on that work12:52
DocScrutinizerI'm just trying to help when pabs3 complains about git down12:53
wolfspraulafaik harald keeps paying server bills, out of good will, and roh is still sometimes trying to maintain a little12:53
wolfspraulmove to other servers12:53
wolfspraulmaybe the entire *.openmoko.org coudl be just set to read-only? :-)12:53
DocScrutinizerI'd not mind12:54
DocScrutinizeractually a sane move12:54
wolfspraulI follow the wiki a little and try to help (at minimum effort) where I can12:55
DocScrutinizeranyway, I pinged Roh if he can either have a look what's down or/and answer on #openmoko-cdevel / http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-March/066676.html12:55
wolfspraulbut I'd just set the whole thing to read-only, end the misery :-)12:55
DocScrutinizerwiki seems no problem at all12:56
wolfspraulexcept for infinite stream of spam12:56
DocScrutinizerI'd just like to mirror it somewhere12:56
wolfspraulwhich amazingly some volunteers keep deleting more or less manually all the time, for years :-)12:56
wolfspraullet's see who wears out first - the bots or the volunteers :-)12:56
wolfspraulthe real solution would be either to upgrade the wiki software and reduce the amount of spam, or to set the whole thing read-only12:57
wolfspraulneither of which will happen imho12:57
DocScrutinizerI haven't noticed any spam on wiki recently, which actually makes me wonder what's going on with my notifications about changes to monitored pages12:58
wolfspraulno spam? wow. wait, checking12:58
DocScrutinizerthe meaningful edits to wiki as well seem rare as 29th of Feb12:59
wolfspraulcool, yes. spam is better! :-)13:00
DocScrutinizerso either set R/O or increase barriers to edit to a rather invincible level13:00
wolfspraulyes, maybe someone did something. cool.13:00
DocScrutinizeranyway this FIC rant in that mail is quite annoying13:01
wolfspraulsure, unfair13:01
wolfspraulbut nothing will happen, so what :-)13:01
DocScrutinizerwhole issue is one of the servers is down, nothing unusual13:03
DocScrutinizerI'm not sure if git/svn is even meant to be in service, but for sure munin being down is odd13:03
DocScrutinizerlet's see what Roh tells us when he's back from whatever he does at Sunday noon ;-)13:04
kyakmirko: if you have some time, please have a look here: https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/10834 (we've discussed this already some time ago). It seems that it breaks qt4 compilation and a bunch of qt4 related packages from qi-packages..13:37
DocScrutinizerbtw a general advice regarding IRC and this chan: I suggest to set +F to some real person, since otherwise you might lose foundership of this channel completely whenever bot acts up. Also a bot is no real person to hold GC of #qi-hardware13:46
DocScrutinizerdisclaimer: AIUI13:46
DocScrutinizere.g bot's account might get klined when bot misbehaves, and you hardly convince freenode stuff to unkline it again, just to administer this chan.13:49
DocScrutinizeralso cloaks etc are hardly requested at freenode staff by a bot13:50
kristianpaulergh digikry non-stock for a SMD0402 470F capacitor :-|14:03
DocScrutinizer0403 470F, I bet they don't have those on stock ;--)14:11
DocScrutinizer0402 even14:11
Action: DocScrutinizer idly wonders if such critter could be built, maybe for 30mV max voltage14:12
kristianpaulWhat replacement you suguest?14:17
kristianpaulnv :)14:23
kristianpaulShipping 1 lb. $39.00 - $46.00 !!14:33
DocScrutinizerhaha, my N900 and my laptop have correct time, while two DCF77 radio controlled alarm clocks and the friggin HomeMatic CCU that is supposed to a ntp server still have winter time :-/14:33
Action: kristianpaul sigh14:34
DocScrutinizeryeah, prohibitively expensive for small birdseed 14:34
kristianpaulnow what..14:35
DocScrutinizerask fleabay14:35
DocScrutinizerit's not exactly like digi-K has a monopoly on 0402 - but almost14:36
kristianpaulebay have worst search eng for smd and passive stuff..14:43
kristianpaulinteresting most common intem is a kit14:45
Action: kristianpaul will ended buying at local ebay..14:53
kristianpaul0402, indeed !15:02
Action: kristianpaul found an interesting smd sample book15:08
kristianpaulsmd 0603, as 0402 seems really rare..15:08
kristianpaulor double the price..15:12
shevekDoes anyone know the memory map of uboot while it is running? Which parts are free (that is, can be used to upload code) when running in usb-boot mode? I need 2kB under 80004000 (stage1) and a lot anywhere (stage2). I'd like to use the same approach for software and hardware usbboot, but when I upload stage1 to 80002000, I think I'm overwriting something, because it doesn't work in software usbboot.16:16
mthshevek: I don't know the answer, but if you're interested in a boot loader for the JZ with easier to read code, Ayla has made one: https://github.com/Ayla-/UBIBoot16:22
mthunlike u-boot, it doesn't try to be a mini OS, instead it just tries to get the kernel running as soon as possible16:23
shevekmth: Thanks, but the only reason I want it to work with uboot is that that's what other people have on their Ben, and telling them to install a different boot loader isn't really an option. ;-)16:25
mthah ok16:25
shevekThe stage2 isn't really a problem, because a random address is usually fine. But stage1 in hardware boot mode must be lower than 80004000 and it seems all that space is taken up by uboot.16:41
shevekOr there's some other difference that makes it not work. Possibly it doesn't like the sdram to be reinitialized, because that obviously already happened.16:42
shevekHurray for source diving. Uboot thinks it a good idea to write into the code it is about the start (assuming it is its own stage1) for passing a signal ("don't initialize memory"). Why oh why do they do that this way? This is pretty much guaranteed to break any custom stage1...17:10
Aylathey like it dirty17:12
shevekAppearantly. :-(17:13
shevekWell, now I know it I can easily work around it.17:13
DocScrutinizerwell, now we know the reason why uBoot on openmoko been named "dirty moko"17:14
wpwraku-boot is all about doing things the wrong way ;-)17:15
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: that "dirty", on the other hand, probably refers to the build having local changes with respect to the repository17:15
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: maybe there's a patch in the build process or such17:16
shevekAnd for Godwin's sake: the nazis were using u-boots, too! :-P17:16
DocScrutinizerwell, they also ate bread17:17
qi-bot[commit] kyak: qt4: change keyboard device in QWS_KEYBOARD (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/2a5afd917:17
DocScrutinizerdoes this mean anything to us now?17:17
wpwrakand there are rumors that they even practiced personal hygiene17:17
shevekDocScrutinizer: No it's pretty much irrelevant, but that's the point of Godwin's law. ;-)17:17
DocScrutinizergoswin is unknown here17:18
DocScrutinizerprolly for a reason17:18
shevek"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."17:19
DocScrutinizerwe got enough fun with our contemporary skinhead assholes and other scum. Not that we had any more than other countries, au contraire. But we're a bit more sensitive to it17:20
shevekWhich country is that? Germany?17:21
DocScrutinizerso godwin's law #1 doesn't apply here17:21
shevekOf course it does. As the discussion grows longer, there is more infomation in it. The probability of some information in there approaches 1 eventually. It may just approach it more slowly. ;-)17:23
DocScrutinizerthe probability to find a 500g goldbar in your slice of bread you're eating also raches one the more slices you eat17:25
shevekExactly. :-)17:25
DocScrutinizerpractically however it's highly unlikely to be able to cut a normal bread so a slice would contain a 500g bar of gold and you'd still try to eat it17:26
shevekYes, and there's the problem of it being so slow that you most likely don't live long enough to finally experience it.17:27
wpwrakat least if you do, you'll realize your mistake immediately. that's a significant difference from the godwin scenario :)17:27
wpwrak(if you do) bit into gold, i mean17:28
DocScrutinizerjust alike it's unlikely two normal germans use Nazi analogies in a discussion, no matter how long that discussuin will take17:28
wpwraknonsense ;-)17:28
wpwrakever been to any online discussion fora ? :)17:29
shevekwpwrak: He was talking about *normal* Germans. ;-)17:29
wpwrakhmm :)17:29
DocScrutinizerlet's agree on the fact we here in germany are mostly thoroughly fed up with that idiot and all stuff around it, probably even more than the Jews, and it's not a very popular topic here unless some skinheads annoy your normal life and you have to beat them up. Thus Godwin isn't known here17:32
shevekSounds reasonable.17:33
DocScrutinizerdue to mere statistical thermodynamics your water in the pot on the fire might freeze, while heating up the surrunding air to several 1000 °C17:42
shevekNot all the water, conservation of energy doesn't allow that. But all the energy could be transferred into a single molecule, while the rest is frozen. ;-)17:44
DocScrutinizer"oh well, the explosion that blew out my windows was casued by the water on my oven freezing in the pot" ;-P17:44
qi-botThe build has FAILED: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building/Nanonote/Ben/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120324-1751 21:03
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law21:10
whitequarkwrong page of log.21:10
whitequarkthe --MORE-- in irssi isn't really noticeable.21:11
DocScrutinizerthanks anyway :-D21:11
whitequarkah. about modules21:13
whitequarksome businesses don't really advertise that they work on workdays from 09:00 to 18:too21:13
whitequarkbut only to 17:30 on Fridays21:14
whitequarkso that was a bit surprising to me to find out that they already closed21:14
dvdkkyak: hi21:47
dvdkkyak: you've been hacking on nanonote's qt4 lately?21:48
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: ooh. Sorry you had some action in vain with the modules. Anyway, tell me your account as soon as possible, and the amount22:25
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: and thanks for making this happen at all22:25
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: well, this generally happens with me all the time22:36
whitequarkso I22:37
whitequark*I'm used to it :)22:37
wpwrakthe natural consequence of procrastination ;-)22:38
whitequarkwpwrak: more of my unusual biological cycle22:40
whitequarkit's best described as a sliding window across the usual 24h cycle22:40
whitequarkI'm already used to calculating whether I'll be awake at the $daynumber22:41
wpwrakah, you sleep with a granularity of whole days. interesting.22:43
wpwrakopening hours shouldn't be a major problem then, though22:43
whitequarkwpwrak: maybe I haven't defined that as correct as I tried to22:44
whitequarklike this: http://xkcd.com/320/22:45
whitequark(but the actual intervals are somewhat different.)22:45
wpwrakhope you read the small print :)22:51
whitequarkI'm already mad23:02
wpwraki don't think it works that way :)23:10
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: thanks for pointing out the +F issue23:29
wolfspraulyou are by far more knowledgeable about irc than I am, so I just don't know23:29
wolfspraulthe last drama was how 'we', the Qi community, could get some degree of control over the channel at all23:30
wolfspraulafter a lot of this and that, I thought sort of the server/qi-bot is in control now and that means anyone we know23:30
DocScrutinizeractually atm only the bot can set +F on any other existing or new member of access list23:30
wolfspraulbut don't ask me about details, they are probably all wrong so your help is the big light in the darkness :-)23:31
DocScrutinizerI'd guess you could sign a GC(?) paper with freenode, from your qi-hardware mail account, and that would imply you get +F on access list23:32
DocScrutinizersingle-# channels are "owned" by GC, who also owns the brand or whatever is in the chan name23:33
DocScrutinizerassuming you "are" qi-hardware, you can fill out that form of freenode23:33
DocScrutinizerand gain GC status for #qi-hardware* namespace23:34
DocScrutinizeror you simply make the bot say /msg chanserv flags #qi-hardware wolfspraul +F23:35
wolfspraulI understand the theoretical need if the bot gets kicked etc, but feel a little lazy about this right now23:37
wpwrakand there i was, thinking nothing could hold you back when you heard of an opportunity to enjoy some bureaucracy ;-)23:38
wolfspraulyeah right23:39
AylaIs it legal for me to read a file from a FAT32 partition, by using its short name?23:42
whitequark"legal" as in "will you get sued by M$"? 23:43
AylaI know there is a patent on that23:43
whitequarkthe patent is on long filenames23:43
whitequarkand its validity AFAIK was not proven23:44
whitequarkand if you're not in US you shouldn't care at all23:44
whitequarkagain, AFAIK23:44
wpwrakthe 8+3 names are safe, yes. not sure if the VFAT patent hasn't already expired.23:45
whitequarkhttp://lwn.net/Articles/321475/ 23:46
Aylathat's great news, I thought it was the 8.3 filenames that were patented23:47
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: basically the GC thing should be painless23:47
DocScrutinizerbut if you have some control over the bot, it's no problem23:48
DocScrutinizerthe bot is already +o, and chanserv commands wouldn't even need that. It's actually just a matter of making bot say the right oneline post23:49
Action: Ayla goes back to the code23:49
DocScrutinizerlike quoted above23:49
Aylaoh, and thanks23:49
mtheven if 8.3 was patented once, it's so old that it would be expired by now23:50
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml23:50
wpwrak8+3 comes from CP/M. and i think there, they stole it from the PDP-8 or such ;-)23:50
wolfspraulok, I understand [+F] still just too lazy now to improve this23:51
mthMSX uses 8+3 and MSX-DOS is CP/M compatible23:51
wolfspraulplus it seems sort of under control right now, with the bot having the rights, that is lots of people with server access23:51
Aylamth: ah, great23:52
AylaI just need to identify the vmlinuz.bin file on the FAT table, and load it, and it should be all good23:52
mthroot dir length has a fixed maximum, unlike subdirs23:53
mthI think somewhere in the boot sector it says how many sectors23:53
mthand also the start sector23:53
Aylayes, I got all of that23:54
wpwrakmth: i was more thinking of the PDP-8 or -10. 1970es, not 80es. shortly after they realized that where was need for more than just one computer on the east coast and one on the west coast ;-)23:54
mthI never touched a computer before about 198423:55
mthI was a kid at that time though23:55
Aylamth: by the "boot sector" you mean the MBR, or the FAT32 boostrap code?23:56
mthdid the PDP-8 use FAT as well, or only 8+3?23:56
wpwrakheh, seems that i was ahead of you a few years ;-) but that PDP stuff is also mostly legends and lore23:56
mthAyla: the boot sector is sector 0 inside the FAT partition23:56
Aylathen yes, there's the info23:56
Aylabut it's not really useful, is it?23:57
wpwraki did see a few real-life PDP-11, though. some made even halfway decent office machines. space-wise, i mean. the bigger ones were a bit too noisy, unless you were deaf already23:57
wpwrak(and of course too large. a full 19" rack for a tenth of the capabilities of a modern wristwatch)23:58
wpwrakAyla: it tells you how the file system is organized23:59
wpwrakAyla: you CAN also go by "standard structures", but that's rather dangerous23:59
mthwpwrak: about legends: at the local computer club they had a Burroughs machine that they managed to keep running while moving it, by quickly plugging it into each next socket they reached... apparently it had huge capacitors inside23:59
Aylawpwrak: I don't care about that, I just need to load one single file :)23:59
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