#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2012-03-23

Action: dvdk is going to look into octave compilation failures, if nobody else has done so yet00:59
wolfspraulthat'd be great, I think nobody got to that yet01:16
dvdklooks like C++ incompatabilities with latest compiler.  hmm, if even octave people can'tmake c++ compilers happy :/01:29
dvdkthis will take time.  another recompile, another 30 minutes.  time to reactivate ccache.01:29
wpwrak(c++) Bjarne Stroustrup, the Marquis de Sade of the computer age ;-)01:36
whitequarkwpwrak: did you know that while02:07
whitequarkClass *klass = new Class; and02:07
whitequarkClass *klass = new Class(); are the same,02:07
whitequarkClass klass; and02:07
whitequarkClass klass(); are completely different things?02:07
whitequarkthe latter, er02:07
whitequarkI'm not completely sure02:07
whitequarkbut I think it calls static operator() or something like that02:07
whitequarkdon't ask me what the hell will it try to do with the return value; I don't know.02:08
dvdkwhitequark: no.  the latter is interpreted as a function prototype for function 'klass' with return value 'Class'  (such as 'int main()').02:09
dvdksee the C++ FQA (frequently questioned answers) for more reasons to hate C++02:09
wpwrak;-))02:10
whitequarkyeah, I've read that02:10
whitequarkbut that particular quirk I have encountered myself02:10
dvdkbtw just having fun with C++ compiler issues of our openwrt octave package02:10
whitequarkand it took me several fucking hours to understand what it doesn't like02:10
whitequarkunfortunately, Qt is too good to not use it02:11
whitequarkand it's the main reason to use C++ in 201202:11
whitequarkwolfspraul: oh, about my package you're (I hope) just going to send me02:13
wpwrakgtk doesn't need any of that ... :)02:13
whitequarkI just found out that I have lost all of my UBBs while not-so-smooth relocating, so I need some again02:13
dvdkwpwrak: but gtk+ (signals?) won't compile with (older) M$ compilers :)02:14
wpwraki think they're still at tuxbrain HQ. but maybe wolfgang is acquiring them, too02:14
dvdkwhitequark: still have a few left02:14
whitequarkwpwrak: gtk2 is crap because it was coded without much thinking. gtk3 is crap because its UI was designed without thinking.02:14
dvdk(ubbs: #4)02:15
wpwrakdvdk: where are so many thing that won't work on windows, what's one more ? ;-)02:15
whitequarkdvdk: well, I'll wait for wolfspraul to reply, I think. but thanks for the offer02:15
dvdkhey, octave finally compiled02:15
wpwrakwhitequark: gtk2 works for me :)02:15
whitequarkwpwrak: well, I somewhat like gtk2, in the sense that it has a lot of good apps. pidgin, for example. some more.02:16
whitequarkbut it really wasn't architected02:16
whitequarkjust written as it was going02:16
wpwraknatural, organic growth :)02:17
whitequarkbecause of exactly same reason Linux had to be refactored so many times no one even remembers that02:17
whitequarkand we, for example, still do not have true AIO like Windows has02:17
whitequark(yes, 2.6 has AIO without threads. it does not work with disk caches.)02:17
wpwrakhow does AIO fail with disk caches ?02:18
whitequarkit bypasses them.02:18
whitequarki.e. you can use AIO and it will be true AIO, but you will fetch the data from disk each time02:18
dvdkwhitequark: select() is all the AIO i'll ever need :)02:18
whitequarkdvdk: doesn't scale02:19
dvdkeverybody tells that but I hardly ever see a case where select() hits a problem02:19
whitequarkdvdk: C10k02:19
whitequarkwell, select() doesn't support more than maybe 4k of file descriptors (a compile time constant, grep it in your /usr/include), and with those 4k it isn't very performant02:20
wpwrak(disk caches) hmm, i have a few doubts about your statement, at least in such a general form. but i'm too lazy to look things up :)02:20
whitequarkwpwrak: I will. there's an ages old thread on lkml and even a patch02:20
whitequarkwhich was never merged02:20
whitequarkI was once caught in a flamewar about Linux AIO and researched that stuff for a week02:21
whitequarknow I know way more than I want to02:21
wpwrak;-)02:21
wpwrakwhy was the patch not merged ?02:21
whitequarkusual bureaucracy?02:21
wpwraktry harder :)02:22
whitequarknot everyone wants/has time to02:22
whitequarkand this is a vicious circle02:22
whitequarkno one uses AIO on linux because it's broken, and no one works on support for it because it isn't used much02:23
whitequarkI can remember only of a single app which uses aio, nginx, and I never really seen an env where it was enabled02:23
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: octave: fix compilation with latest openwrt toolchain (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/51287e202:25
wpwrakso perhaps there's simply not enough of an itch :)02:25
wolfspraulI don't have the UBBs, unfortunately02:26
wolfspraulI forgot to ask David when he sent me the atben/atusb, and I have no better way to reach him than anybody else02:26
wpwrakbtw, i rarely found getting stuff that ready for mainline into mainline a problem. the problem people hit most of the time is that stuff their boss things is ready for mainline isn't. and then they find out that, shockingly, the maintainers couldn't care less about their bosses opinion.02:27
whitequarkwpwrak: http://lse.sourceforge.net/io/aio.html02:31
whitequarkWhat Does Not Work?02:31
whitequarkAIO read and write on files opened without O_DIRECT02:31
wpwraknow that makes a lot more sense02:32
dvdknight. 02:33
whitequarkand the "additional functionality" is last patched to 2.6.1202:33
wolfsprauln802:33
whitequarkwhich is ancient02:33
wolfsprauldvdk: and thanks! of course02:33
dvdkno problem.  just scrating the itches :)02:34
whitequarkwpwrak: also this: http://lwn.net/Articles/148755/02:34
whitequarkgiven that aio supposedly wasn't updated much since 2.6.12, that is still applicable02:35
wpwraknow you know how what you have to do to become a famous kernel hacker :)02:36
whitequarkwpwrak: I'm _really_ tired of rewriting/fixing every things I don't like how they work02:37
whitequarkfrom ACPI in my old netbook to the xf86-input-synaptics (these are obviously in the "fixing" domain)02:38
whitequarknow that I updated to Android 4 I have several open-source apps I like in the queue02:38
whitequarkand osPID firmware, because it's quite FUBAR02:39
wpwrakperhaps you should then try to adapt your energy level for dislikes to your constructive energy levels :)02:39
whitequarkheh02:39
whitequarkthat was just an example about why "organic growth" for a big library like gtk is bad02:39
cfyxiangfu: hi,are you here?02:40
xiangfucfy, yes02:40
wpwrakyeah. damn linus that he didn't have a master plan for linux back in 1991 ;-)02:40
whitequarkLinux is less of an example, because people still don't know how to write good OS kernels; but gui libraries have't changed radically for 15 years or so02:40
whitequarkit's still all about buttons and textboxes02:41
wpwrakdepends a bit. sometimes you also get a nice canvas to play with02:42
whitequarksure02:42
whitequark(good OS kernels) I won't be running in circles screaming "Linux is crap", but seriously, it had a lot of major drawbacks, it has been rewritten several times (if you squash all the rewrites in one "changeset"), and it _still_ has major drawbacks02:43
whitequarkan OS kernel shouldn't be ideal for people to use it02:43
whitequarkit should only be good enough02:43
whitequarkand, also, it has a very narrow external interface compared to the internal one02:43
whitequarkon the other hand, gui library has an enormous external interface which closely resembles the parts on the screen02:44
whitequarkor take android.02:46
whitequarkthey didn't really thought about design back in 1.0 and pre-1.0 times, and now it backfired02:46
whitequarkthey _did_ think about design and UX in ICS, and it is really good, but every freaking app is broken02:46
whitequarkcompare to iphone, where there weren't any major changes to UI from 1.002:47
whitequarkthis is not a reason to use iphone, but it _is_ a reason to think before you code.02:47
wpwrakthe main problem of android is that they did what the hw makers wanted02:48
whitequarkoh, the device diversity. I'd say this is not a "problem" in the sense that it wasn't unexpected or something like that02:48
whitequarkit is like PCs02:48
wpwrakandroid fragmentation is a perfect example for what's wrong in the prevailing mindset of the embedded hw industry02:48
whitequarkandroid is designed to run over a wide range of hardware. it kind of accomplished that task in the sense that it can run on an incredibly wide range, beginning from $99 chinese tablets02:49
wpwrakwhat i don't know is if google fully realized that from the beginning (and decided to play along for a while), or if they didn't understand what mess this would produce themselves02:49
whitequarkwpwrak: on the other hand, your very reply is a perfect example of what's wrong with OSHW overall02:49
wpwrakthere's no problem with a lot of hardware02:50
whitequarkmaybe not exactly in your case, but still valid02:50
wpwrakthere's a big problem if you have a divergent branch for each piece of hardware02:50
whitequarkwpwrak: (divergent branch) hm, what do you mean for that? kernel forks? custom UIs? the fact that manufacturers don't want to upgrade old HW?02:51
wpwrakwell, sometimes you to speak an unpleasant truth :)02:51
whitequarkwpwrak: (what's wrong) you're a HW maker. you think of a device in terms of hardware, and maybe software. pre-3.0 Android was designed by programmers02:51
whitequarkthis is VERY wrong02:51
wpwrakyes, forks all over the place. and nothing goes back upstream. and that means that you can't upgrade.02:51
whitequarkbecause yes, it worked, and it was open-source02:51
wpwrakconsider this: http://theunderstatement.com/post/11982112928/android-orphans-visualizing-a-sad-history-of-support02:52
whitequarkbut if I'd be given a crappy open-source app and a nice-looking and convenient to use proprietary app, even I would most certainly get the proprietary one02:52
wpwrakthe problem aren't implementation details. it's the general development process.02:52
whitequarkwhen you do something just to make it open-source, you're doing it horribly wrong, and you won't make anything good, unfortunately02:53
whitequarkexample: gcc02:53
whitequarkcounter-example: clang02:53
wpwrakit's not even a question of open or closed. e.g., microsoft seem to be getting that bit right - they require things to go into mainline.02:53
whitequarkwpwrak: (fragmentation) they get better with that, and cyanogenmod solves much of that problem02:54
whitequarkhm. microsoft and mainline?02:54
whitequarkwhat do you mean by that?02:54
wpwrak(cyanogen) yeah. the proverbial silver lining :) of course, sabotaged by binary-only drivers ...02:56
whitequarkwpwrak: (main problem) you've been talking about problems of Android as an ecosystem, and I was talking about problem of pre-v3 Android as an OS of itself. it is just not a good mobile OS. not by today's standards.02:56
wpwrak(ms) that they get the drivers/extensions back. so they can produce updated versions.02:56
wpwrak(ms) i don't remember the reference, though02:56
whitequarkwpwrak: (cyanogen) binary drivers are bad in multiple ways, and they're a somewhat significant problem of CM, but CM works, and it works good02:57
wpwrak(ecosystem) correct. i don't know about android's merits as an application platform.02:58
wolfspraulit inherits Java to a degree, it will follow Java's path02:59
wpwrakthe joy of oracle :)02:59
wolfspraulon the phone/tablet manufacturer side, >90% of participants are on unsustainable trajectories02:59
whitequark(binary drivers) it would also be strange for Google to require sources of all userspace drivers linked with Apache-licensed environment03:00
whitequarkand vendors open the parts they're required to. kernel trees, for example. still not enough, obviously03:00
wolfspraulthat may be the 'let's set them up to go against each other' strategy that was conceived in the ivory tower, but in the end it will still show its nasty side, if that doesn't happen already03:00
wpwrakwhitequark: there are many ways for google to address this. also non-open approaches may work. but they haven't done this.03:01
wolfspraulI ask myself a simple question: if a good friend (non-techie like 99% of the world) asks what smartphone they should buy, I would recommend? iphone, clearly.03:01
whitequarkwpwrak: (app platform) I use it daily for months, and pre-v3 android is definitely not a good OS. period. 4.0 brings it on par with WP and iOS, but apps lag behind.03:01
wolfspraulI think we should leap ahead of all this mess :-)03:02
whitequarkwpwrak: what do you mean by "unsustainable trajectories"?03:02
whitequarkmoving too fast to produce good code, and too money-burning to live for a long time?03:02
wpwrakssh whitequark s/wpwrak/wolfspraul/03:03
wolfspraulthe manufacturers have no chance to make a good product03:03
wolfspraulbut I'm not running around, I don't need to convince anyone. android may go to 9x% whatever marketshare, and I wouldn't care03:03
wpwrakat the moment, they have the GHz race to win. again ;-) and then the multicore race. again :-)03:04
wolfspraulsurvived the Symbian times, will survive the Android times :-)03:04
whitequarkwolfspraul: why they do not?03:04
wolfspraultakes too long to go through03:04
wolfspraulat least android is consistent in what they do03:05
wolfspraulat android's peak, will it have bigger smartphone 'market share' than Symbian?03:05
wolfspraul:-)03:05
wolfspraullet's guess03:05
wolfspraulok I dare: YES! :-)03:07
whitequarkwolfspraul: uhm. I definitely don't get what's bad with Android in your opinion, and why iPhone is better in that sense03:07
whitequarkand what does Java has to do with this03:08
wolfspraulmalware, updates03:08
wolfspraulhow did Java develop?03:08
wolfspraulit got a huge hype at its beginning, expectations through the roof even though there are gross shortcomings of the language03:09
wolfspraulacademia adopted it in droves, and pumped millions of poor students through Java classes03:09
wolfspraulstartups jumped on it and found it a good way to lock enterprise customer into convoluted Java 'systems'03:10
whitequark... and now JVM is _the_ best VM in the world with tens of languages running on it03:10
wolfspraulit grew and grew03:10
wolfspraulit's probably very profitable for the players in the system even03:10
wolfspraulmaybe we should bring Java to the Ben to make it *really successful* :-)03:11
wolfspraulah no, wait. ANDROID!03:11
wolfspraulwhitequark: just look at malware/app store quality, and os updates. in those 2 instances you see the issues clearly imho.03:12
wolfspraulbut again, no need to run around about Android. if you enjoy it - great! more power to you.03:12
wolfspraulthe Amazon Fire is pretty cool, Amazon returned Google's opening03:13
whitequarkI still don't see what's wrong with Java per se03:14
whitequarkwell, it probably really was abused03:15
whitequarkwhich doesn't make it any worse03:15
whitequarkif you use `dd' to kill a puppy, would it make `dd' itself a bad thing?..03:15
whitequarkwolfspraul: (os updates) yes, here I agree with you. this is very broken, but hopefully Google understands the issue and did something to manage that. they've already adjusted release cycles and so on03:17
whitequarkif they won't fix that, well, it's windowsphone time again.03:17
whitequark(I have an allergy to apples.)03:17
whitequarkwolfspraul: (ben) if only Ben had the hardware to run Android, or any task relevant to modern world whatsoever, it won't need Android to be successful.03:19
whitequarkyou don't buy a device and then do strange things to make any use of it. you buy a device and it impresses you with the number of things it can do.03:19
whitequarkseriously, the very fact that the wiki has a _separate page for use cases_ is FUBAR. not to mention that most of these use cases are actually feature requests which will never be fulfilled.03:21
wolfspraulwiki?03:22
wolfspraulhow did that work again?03:22
whitequarkhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Nanonote_use_cases 03:22
wolfspraulI'm just doing a test on my fedora system. I have 1450 packages installed. grep -i java finds 5. I am currently uninstalling them one by one to see whether any one of them is a dependency of any of the dozens of apps I use all the time.03:23
wolfspraulresults to come in shortly03:23
whitequarkand how that would relate to android (which is not fully Java-compatible anyway) and the fact that JVM is the fastest VM we currently have?03:25
Action: whitequark waves his hand03:25
wolfspraulyes, libreoffice needs one03:25
whitequarkthis is a pointless discussion. I don't even understand what do you want to tell me.03:25
wolfspraulwell I am down to one, I'll leave it there in peace03:25
wolfspraulnothing, I just cleaned up my system a bit, was curious about Java dependencies03:25
wolfspraulnow I know: libreoffice needs it03:25
whitequarksigh. nevermind.03:27
wolfsprauldo you use the jvm on your notebook/desktop ?03:27
whitequarkyes03:28
wolfspraulwhat use cases?03:28
whitequarkI have several apps, most notably aerofs (think distributed dropbox without key escrow), and my IDE, RubyMine03:28
whitequarkand I use jruby extensively03:28
whitequarkit is an implementation of Ruby on JVM, and it is really really fast. much faster than any other thing around here, most of the time it even compares with native code.03:29
wolfspraulinteresting. thanks for sharing! that gives me some things to read about. I had not known about aerofs for example.03:29
whitequarkaerofs is very unfortunately closed source03:29
wolfspraulah03:29
wolfspraulthat speeds up the reading :-)03:29
whitequarkbut it is still better than dropbox in the sense that it is distributed03:29
whitequarkthat is, it won't generally send your data somewhere and allow anyone in that "there" to read it03:29
whitequarkas dropbox does03:29
whitequarkand I never managed to find a working opensource alternative03:30
whitequarkno, rsync isn't.03:30
whitequarkpersonally for me, Java isn't of much value of itself, but JVM definitely is03:31
whitequarkhttp://owncloud.org is somewhat promising03:38
whitequarkbut it has no desktop app yet :/03:38
whitequarkwolfspraul: there's also open-source Syncany (not yet released, but seems to be in active development), and guess what03:43
whitequarkit's in Java!03:43
zrafawolfspraul: have you been talking about iphone being better than other things?04:13
wolfspraulno04:13
wolfspraulI would never dare to do so knowing that you are in the channel!04:13
wolfspraulmaybe my machine was hacked?04:14
zrafaah... you will be at the heaven at the next life04:14
zrafagod is with you04:14
zrafamaybe wpwrak then04:14
zrafaI know him04:14
zrafaarhg!.. my machine is under attack!04:15
zrafaJAVAAAAAAAAA 04:16
zrafano free memory04:16
zrafaYes, definitely libreoffice needs java04:17
zrafaI can not continue writting. Sorry. Some people ask me to leave04:20
wolfspraul:-)04:21
wolfspraulreally? the gods of java come to redeem your sins?04:21
zrafa:)04:21
zrafaI think that it is Miriam ;) but she does not like jave. 04:23
zrafajava*04:23
zrafamaybe she is corrupt. I will listen her. See you guys04:23
wpwrakJava -> JVM04:32
wpwrakJava <- {.}  // the empty set04:32
wpwrakvery simple :)04:33
qi-botThe build has FAILED: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building/Nanonote/Ben/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120322-0704 08:57
whitequarkDocScrutinizer51: hi10:31
whitequarkI ordered two SIM900D for you10:31
whitequarkif everything would work as expected, I'll send them tomorrow10:32
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: updated Sourcing status (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/cb05c7f10:37
qi-bot[commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:wernermisc (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/af07d1310:37
viricdo you keep the microcode up to date for your computers?15:52
kyak:)16:29
kyakmy computer is zillion years old, no more microcode updates for it -\16:30
virichehe16:31
viricI updated a Pentium IV today16:31
viricfrom rev 0x0 to 0x3716:31
virickyak: maybe your computer reached perfection16:31
kyakyes!! i like to think about it that way16:32
zenlunaticanyone now where to get the rubber footsie on the bottom of the BNN... lost one18:05
wpwrakmaybe try a drop of silicone. available at your next DIY shop18:06
wpwrakif you wet your fingers with alcohol, you can shape the silicone without it sticking to your fingers18:07
viricthe drop of sillicone works great18:10
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: great!18:17
zenlunaticcool18:19
DocScrutinizerI'd ask wolfspraul 18:25
DocScrutinizerstandard mail letters from China with silly rubber blobs inside are dirt cheap18:26
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: is a nice guy, he probably can help18:27
DocScrutinizerI ised to do similar things for OM FR, but for BNN I'm not really involved18:28
DocScrutinizerused*18:28
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: we would help, but i think he doesn't have spare feet himself18:29
wpwraks/we/he/18:30
infobotwpwrak meant: DocScrutinizer: he would help, but i think he doesn't have spare feet himself18:30
wpwrakgrmbl18:30
DocScrutinizerwho's admin of qibot?18:30
wpwrakkyak ? wolfgang ?18:31
DocScrutinizerso any of you would tell the bot to stop regex? pretty please18:32
DocScrutinizerqi-bot: master18:33
DocScrutinizerqi-bot: owner18:33
DocScrutinizerMEH18:33
DocScrutinizerqi-bot: info18:34
DocScrutinizerqi-bot: status18:34
DocScrutinizerqi-bot: help18:34
DocScrutinizerqi-bot: die!18:35
wpwraksince you seem to control infobot, with whose appearance the problem started, there seems to be an easy and immediately implementable solution :)18:36
whitequarkhm18:37
whitequarkinfobot: hi18:38
infobothello, whitequark18:38
whitequarkqi-bot: hi18:38
whitequarkhenceforth, I prefer infobot to stay.18:38
whitequarkit is more polite.18:38
zenlunaticso you mean i can't mail the BNN to a vendor and pay $60 for something I can fix myself18:41
DocScrutinizerI bet you can18:43
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: there's a number of (immediately) and not so \1 implementable solutions to my choice, but none of them will take care of the requirements set up in this very chan, by wolfspraul, you, whitequark18:45
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul said he wants to keep infobot, you said you prefer infobot 's regex implementation over the qi-bot nonsense, and now whitequark preferred infobot for other reasons18:47
DocScrutinizerso I'm not going to implement a partial botch solution just to deal with missing responsiveness of qi-bot 's admin18:48
DocScrutinizeresp since I'm not sure how to disable regex in infobot 18:49
DocScrutinizerneither if I may do it at all18:50
kyakwpwrak: what is it?18:51
kyaki'm not sure if it is right to spend some time implementing a feature (regexp replacement) just to disable it some day because it turns out to annoy DocScrutinizer18:54
kyakit was a popular request, as far as i remember18:54
DocScrutinizerit seems it annoys other users more than exactly me18:55
kyakDocScrutinizer: this is probably the last time i say it: learn the "ignore" command of your irc client. It solve ALL problems.18:55
DocScrutinizerkyak: thanks for the lesson :-S18:55
DocScrutinizerI pay back with "learn to read full backscroll"18:56
DocScrutinizerbtw I doubt /ignore will solve the problem of smart alec posts I cope with not that good when in a foul mood19:00
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: you're correct that i prefer infobot's regex handling to qi-bot's. i never said it was a requirement for me, though.20:30
DocScrutinizer51wpwrak: if I'd not feel like 'MEH CBA' after that lesson of kyak, I'd immediately fix it20:32
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: and on general principles, i disagree with the way you just put infobot here, afaik without any prior discussion, and then demand the removal of qi-bot. that's rather impolite and bully-ish.20:32
wpwrakDocScrutinizer51: ah, you have access to qi-bot ? even better :)20:33
DocScrutinizer51I neither put it here (or rather kept) without any discussion20:33
DocScrutinizer51nope20:33
DocScrutinizer51I hape some access to infobot20:33
DocScrutinizer51which I temprarily /invide'd to "~wtf nfc"20:34
DocScrutinizer51then I said I'm not planning to keep her, and any chanop is free to /kick20:35
DocScrutinizer51wolfspraul said sth I understood like he appreciates infobot20:35
DocScrutinizer51so I made it permanent20:35
DocScrutinizer51and I never asked for shutdown of qibot, WTF?!20:36
DocScrutinizer51honestly, can't you guys find out about your inability to read chanlogs on a day when I'm not in a extremely foul mood?20:37
wpwrakwell, at least partial shutdown, just a few minutes ago: "so any of you would tell the bot to stop regex? pretty please"20:37
DocScrutinizer51that's been all according to *zour* very decision20:38
DocScrutinizer51read the friggin chanlog20:38
DocScrutinizer51I just pointed to the problem, demonstrated the diffs in implementation of regex on both, and even dared to mention *I* would prefer infobot. The final decision been by wpwrak 20:42
wpwrak"my decision" ? that sounds like some misunderstanding. anyway, perhaps this discussion is better continued on a day when your mood is less foul ?20:43
DocScrutinizer51Now I take the flames for trying to implement what *you* picked20:43
DocScrutinizer51sorry, too friggin stupid a debate for me today20:43
DocScrutinizer51fix it or leave it like now, whatever you like. don't pester me again about it!20:44
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [13:37:00] <DocScrutinizer51> tell me what you decided on that21:15
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [13:37:41] <DocScrutinizer51> so I may find the proper chanset flag for infobot to turn it off, if it's infobot to shutup21:15
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [15:16:57] * kristianpaul loves infobots21:16
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [09:05:28] <DocScrutinizer> she won't stay anyway, I haven't added #qi-hw to infobot's autojoin list21:17
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [09:06:14] <DocScrutinizer> !status21:18
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [09:06:23] <wolfspra1l> DocScrutinizer: thanks a lot! in my opinion she should stay21:18
DocScrutinizernow you got one more chance to give me definitive instructions how to handle the issue21:18
DocScrutinizerI'm not your whipping boy21:19
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [13:18:19] <qi-bot> DocScrutinizer51 meant: "DUH! one problem though I'll deal with later on:"21:20
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [13:20:44] <DocScrutinizer51> wolfspra1l: shall infobot ignore regex, or do you prefer to disable it in qibot?21:20
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [13:21:24] <DocScrutinizer51> I personally think qibot's implementation is inferior21:20
DocScrutinizer[Do 15. März 2012] [13:23:25] <DocScrutinizer51> s/personally/for one/21:20
DocScrutinizeryou are free to read up your own contributions in chanlog21:21
DocScrutinizerI'm not going to take and accept any further blame regarding the issue21:21
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: IMHO, the first step would be to determine what you're actually trying to accomplish. if it's a change to the regex handling (e.g., require ending /, remove implicit g), then i think there's a majority that agrees with such a change. then, the next step would be to discuss with kyak how to make that happen. most likely, it's a quick change to qi-bot. infobot wouldn't be needed or at least not for substitutions in that 21:33
wpwrakcase. if, however, he thinks this would be better handled by infobot, then he should disable the feature in qi-bot and let infobot do it.21:33
DocScrutinizerand I'll not take any further actions to sanitaze the situation, nor ever again rise the topic, unless someone of you starts giving clear instructions21:33
DocScrutinizerI'm thoroughly pissed of taking flames for trying to be helpful21:34
wpwraksee, the problem here is that nobody really "owns" the channel. normally, people follow their social instincts and resolve conflicts without needing a judge.21:34
wpwrakalways remember: the road to hell is paved with good intentions :-)21:35
DocScrutinizerto me the chan is owned by a) those on access list and -- no not b) but major A) by owner of name qi-hardware21:35
DocScrutinizerI'm not interested on way to hell - I arrived there long time ago21:36
wpwrakhence the smoking ? :)21:36
DocScrutinizercya21:37
wpwrakenjoy the pub ! :)21:37
DocScrutinizeralready back home21:37
wpwrakback from the pub ? that's early21:38
DocScrutinizerI had my N900 with me21:38
DocScrutinizerso it was too dangerous to stay21:38
wpwrakah, so you left before the fighting and thieving normally starts. i see :)21:39
DocScrutinizerbefore my mood - caused by #qi-hardware - made me do insane things to innocent guests21:40
wpwrakperhaps just catching up with a bit with sleep will help. it's been a long and busy week.21:41
DocScrutinizerit's been a night with 12h of sleep21:41
DocScrutinizerwhich actually might explain a few things to me which I forgot to take into account21:41
wpwrakokay, so that was either too much, or you need more of it. there's but one way to find out - controlled experiments :)21:41
DocScrutinizermadness started yesterday anyway21:42
DocScrutinizerand today it got worse21:42
DocScrutinizerand when I left friggin job, it got even worse21:42
DocScrutinizerand then came qi-hardware21:43
DocScrutinizertoldya I got a foul mood21:44
DocScrutinizerand that for I'm off now21:44
DocScrutinizerdon't dare to ever pester me about infobot, unless you know what you want21:44
kristianpaulinfobot: milkymist?21:51
DocScrutinizerone last note: it's a terrible sitaution that founder of this channel is a bot21:52
DocScrutinizerand that bot isn't exactly verbose and forthcoming when you try to find out who's her master21:53
DocScrutinizer~listkeys milkymist21:53
infobotFactoid search of 'milkymist' by key returned no results.21:53
DocScrutinizer~listvalues milkymist21:53
infobotFactoid search of 'milkymist' by value returned no results.21:53
DocScrutinizer~milkymist is a mystery21:54
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay21:54
DocScrutinizer~forget milkymist21:54
infobotDocScrutinizer: i forgot milkymist21:54
DocScrutinizerplease keep in mind I have set up the bot in a way you can have your very own namespace, like:21:55
DocScrutinizer~#qi-hardware milkymist is a mystery21:55
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay21:55
DocScrutinizer~milkymist21:55
infobotrumour has it, milkymist is a mystery21:55
DocScrutinizerthis factoid is not available as ~milkymist in any other chan21:56
DocScrutinizerlikewise you can override factoids like ~flashing21:56
DocScrutinizer~flashing21:56
infobotrumour has it, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware21:56
DocScrutinizer~literal flashing21:56
infobot"flashing" is "<reply>see maemo-flashing"21:56
zrafaI still do not know how to say "actions" like others do with "*pepe is cooking something" ;)21:57
DocScrutinizer~qi-hardware flashing is the only way to get new firmware on milkymist21:57
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer21:57
wpwrakzrafa: /me is cooking something21:57
DocScrutinizer~flashing21:57
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware21:57
DocScrutinizerdang21:58
DocScrutinizer~#qi-hardware flashing is the only way to get new firmware on milkymist21:58
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay21:58
DocScrutinizer~flashing21:58
infobotfrom memory, flashing is the only way to get new firmware on milkymist21:58
zrafawpwrak: ha!°.. thanks! there is alwasy something new to learn :)21:58
DocScrutinizer~forget qi-hardware flashing21:58
infoboti forgot qi-hardware flashing, DocScrutinizer21:58
Action: zrafa is learning the actions thing21:58
DocScrutinizeryou already did :-)21:58
zrafaDocScrutinizer: yeah it seems :)21:59
zrafaI am not a big fan of aaaaallll of tiny details about irc chat. I usually just write and press ENTER 21:59
zrafawithout to know all the functions irc chats have22:00
DocScrutinizerbots are a niche magic22:00
zrafaI have no idea what is bots, infobots, etc .. which are always remember things or fixing people words22:00
zrafa:P22:00
zrafabut they do not disturb me.. I just ignore the lines of infobot, bots.. when they say something22:01
DocScrutinizersome useful stuff to be found at http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml and neighbours22:01
DocScrutinizerzrafa: infobot has a database of ~150,000 factoids that you can query via ~factoid22:03
viricis 'factoid' a word?22:03
DocScrutinizershe has some other less intriguing functions as well22:04
DocScrutinizerviric: for infobot it is22:04
DocScrutinizer~status22:04
infobotSince Thu Mar 22 21:21:46 2012, there have been 6 modifications, 46 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 32 commands.  I have been awake for 1d 42m 39s this session, and currently reference 118475 factoids.  I'm using about 22328 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 337.55/7.15 child 0/022:04
DocScrutinizerok only ~120,00022:04
DocScrutinizer~listkeys gates22:04
infobotFactoid search of 'gates' by key (12): bill gates ;; gates no ;; reminds me, what would bill gates do if he ;; gates ;; marry bill gates ;; us es x bill gates ;; you look like bill gates ;; wingates ;; billgates ;; gateswhine ;; billgates humour ;; gatesmack.22:05
DocScrutinizer~bill gates22:05
infobot[bill gates] lord of Darkness22:05
viricirc wisdom22:05
DocScrutinizer~listkeys openmoko22:06
infobotFactoid search of 'openmoko' by key (11 of 20): #openmoko-cdevel log ;; #openmoko-cdevel-bb2 ;; #openmoko-cdevel nf2 ;; #openmoko-cdevel sound ;; best openmoko site ;; factinfo: the best openmoko site ;; coolest openmoko site ;; #openmoko-cdevel flashing ;; #openmoko-cdevel audio ;; #openmoko-cdevel-bb-rl ;; #openmoko-cdevel-bb-help.22:06
DocScrutinizeryou see #openmoko-cdevel has a local namespace, just like this chan has22:06
zrafaDocScrutinizer: interesting22:06
DocScrutinizer~#openmoko audio22:06
DocScrutinizererr22:06
DocScrutinizer~#openmoko-cdevel audio22:07
infobotsomebody said #openmoko-cdevel audio was http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_Freerunner_audio_subsystem and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_1973_audio_subsystem22:07
wpwrakviric: dict factoid  :)22:07
DocScrutinizer~dict factoid22:07
infobotDictionary 'factoid' (2): a brief (usually one sentence and usually trivial) news item ;; something resembling a fact; unverified (often invented) information that is given credibility because it appeared in print.22:07
wpwrakhmm, /ignore should have a message pattern match as well22:08
DocScrutinizerre ~#openmoko-cdevel audio: in #openmoko-cdevel chan you invoke that factoid simply via ~audio22:09
DocScrutinizerwhile here you get sth different22:09
DocScrutinizer~audio22:09
infobotfrom memory, audio is usually a codec issue. start with trying to set 'disallow=all' and 'allow=alaw' in sip.conf or the channel's config file if not using sip22:09
DocScrutinizer~literal audio22:09
infobot"audio" is "usually a codec issue. start with trying to set 'disallow=all' and 'allow=alaw' in sip.conf or the channel's config file if not using sip"22:09
DocScrutinizer~literal #openmoko-cdevel audio22:10
infobot"#openmoko-cdevel audio" is "http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_Freerunner_audio_subsystem and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_1973_audio_subsystem"22:10
DocScrutinizerthere are another few more or less useful finctions of infobot22:11
DocScrutinizer~2 + 3^1522:11
infobot1022:11
DocScrutinizererr22:11
DocScrutinizer~3^1022:11
infobot922:11
DocScrutinizero.O22:11
DocScrutinizerLOL22:11
viricthe exponent goes in binary22:12
DocScrutinizer~12345 * 6789022:12
infobot83810205022:12
viricor ^ means xor22:12
DocScrutinizerprolly22:12
DocScrutinizer~3^^1022:12
DocScrutinizerstrange22:12
DocScrutinizer~3^222:13
infobot122:13
DocScrutinizerI forgot the math notation22:13
DocScrutinizer~5!22:13
infobot[5!] 12022:13
viric~3**222:14
infobot922:14
viric:)22:14
viricI win22:14
DocScrutinizer:P22:14
DocScrutinizerI am the loser today22:14
DocScrutinizerwe already agreed on that22:14
virichaha22:14
DocScrutinizer;-)22:14
viric~0x321+1022:15
DocScrutinizer~3**5522:15
infobot17444921100912016608775372822:15
DocScrutinizerI'm not sure about non-10 base22:15
viric~07+0122:15
infobot822:15
kristianpaul~wikipedia qi-hardware22:16
infobotI couldn't find a matching article in wikipedia, look for yerselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=qi-hardware&go=Go22:16
kristianpaul~wikipedia milkymist22:16
infobotAt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkymist (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{Infobox information appliance | name = Milkymist One | image = | caption = | manufacturer = Qi Hardware | type = Video synthesizer | releasedate = {{Start date|2010|12|27}} (early developer kit), {{Start date|2011|09|28}} (final version) | price = 380 EUR (early developer kit), 499 USD (final version) | lifespan = | media = | os = RTEMS, Linux | input = USB keyboard and mouse | ...22:16
DocScrutinizeranyway22:16
DocScrutinizer~query22:16
infobottalk dirty to me! Preferably, do so after you have typed "/query infobot" which should open a new window/tab/whatever with most irc clients. You can talk to me all you like and don't annoy other people with endless queries. Be aware that the stuff you write is logged, so don't get too 1337 :)22:16
kristianpaulhe22:16
DocScrutinizerand22:16
DocScrutinizer~+help22:16
infobotI learn mainly by observing declarative statements such as "x is at http://www.xxx.com", and then reply when people ask things like "where can i find x?"22:16
infobot37 topics: action, addressing, alternation, author, babelfish, banadd, bandel, botmail, chanadd, chandel, chaninfo, chanset, chanunset, chattr, chnick, chpass, contents, convert, cookie, corrections, cpustats, crypt, cycle, dauthor, dbugs, ddesc, dfind, dict, dns, do, dollar variables, dstats, factinfo, factstats, flags, forget, freshmeat22:16
infobot39 topics: google, hex, hex2ip, hostadd, hostdel, httpdtype, identify, ignore, ircstats, join, karma, kernel, kick, lart, lc, listauth, listkeys, listvalues, literal, lobotomy, lock, main, math, md5, mode, news, news add, news del, news mod, news set, news set expire, nickometer, onjoin, ord, page, part, piglatin, quote, redirection22:16
infobot32 topics: rename, reply, reverse, rot13, rssfeeds, say, scramble, search, seen, slashdot, spell, status, tell, topic, topic add, topic del, topic mod, topic mv, topic restore, uc, unforget, unlobotomy, unlock, upsidedown, uptime, useradd, userdel, verstats, wantnick, whois, wikipedia, wtf22:16
kristianpaulsure ;)22:16
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: does this infobot reacts to questionns like22:17
kristianpaulHow i do reflash my nanonote?22:17
kristianpaulautomatically?22:17
DocScrutinizeronly when introduced by ~ (key char) or infobot:22:17
kristianpaul~How i do reflash my nanonote?22:17
kristianpaulgot it22:17
kristianpaul~ How i do reflash my nanonote?22:17
kristianpaulergh22:17
DocScrutinizerit's too complex22:18
kristianpauli heard infobots can understand that..22:18
kristianpaulanyway back later22:18
DocScrutinizerbasically best is to only post the keyword22:18
kristianpaulhave fun with the bot22:18
DocScrutinizer~what is milkymist22:18
infobotrumour has it, milkymist is a mystery22:18
DocScrutinizer~tell me what you think about milkymist22:19
DocScrutinizer~what do you think about milkymist22:19
DocScrutinizersometimes she answers "gee, I don't know what you're talking about"22:20
DocScrutinizershe's no plain text parser ;-)22:21
DocScrutinizer~omap22:21
infobothttp://OMAP.com/ or Texas Instrument's OMAP Platform is comprised of high-performance, power efficient processors, a robust software infrastructure and comprehensive support network for the rapid development of differentiated internet appliances, 2.5G and 3G wireless handsets and PDAs, and other multimedia-enhanced devices. #ol22:21
DocScrutinizerand now I'm definitely off22:22
DocScrutinizerjust keep in mind you might want to append to head of factoids a "#qi-hardware " when they are chan topic specific 22:24
DocScrutinizer~bill gates22:25
infobotsomebody said bill gates was lord of Darkness22:25
DocScrutinizer~#qi-hardware bill gates is not in this channel, and never will be22:25
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer22:25
DocScrutinizer~bill gates22:25
infobot[bill gates] not in this channel, and never will be22:25
DocScrutinizer~listkeys qi-hardware22:26
infobotFactoid search of 'qi-hardware' by key (5): #qi-hardware milkymist ;; #qi-hardware infobot ;; #qi-hardware bill gates ;; #qi-hardware flashing ;; qi-hardware flashing #DEL#.22:26
DocScrutinizer~infobot22:27
infobotI'm your very local infobot, and this is a facoid only valid in this chan22:27
DocScrutinizer~_default infobot22:27
infobotit has been said that infobot is happy, or a liar22:27
DocScrutinizerbtw feel free to redefine ~milkymist22:30
DocScrutinizerjust make bot ~forget milkymist  before you define a new milkymist factoid22:30
DocScrutinizerotherwise:22:30
DocScrutinizer~milkymist is "laready existing"22:31
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay22:31
DocScrutinizerdang22:31
DocScrutinizersorry for confusing example22:31
DocScrutinizer:-)22:31
DocScrutinizer~milkymist is "already existing"22:31
infobot...but milkymist is already something else...22:31
DocScrutinizer~forget milkymist22:31
infoboti forgot milkymist, DocScrutinizer22:31
DocScrutinizer~milkymist 22:32
infobotrumour has it, milkymist is a mystery22:32
DocScrutinizer;-D22:32
DocScrutinizer~literal milkymist22:32
infobot"#qi-hardware milkymist" is "a mystery"22:32
DocScrutinizer~milkymist is /join #qi-hardware22:33
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer22:33
DocScrutinizer~milkymist 22:33
infobotfrom memory, milkymist is a mystery22:33
DocScrutinizer~_default milkymist 22:33
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, milkymist is /join #qi-hardware22:33
DocScrutinizerand since I'm fed up with the feeling left over from this evening...22:40
DocScrutinizer~chanset #qi-hardware -sed22:40
infobotsetting sed for #qi-hardware is not set.22:40
DocScrutinizer~chanset #qi-hardware sed 022:40
infobotSetting sed for #qi-hardware to '0'.22:40
DocScrutinizer~chanset #qi-hardware22:40
infobotchan: #qi-hardware (see _default also)22:40
infobot _time_added => 1331799075, autojoin => infobot, factoidSearch => $chan _default, sed => 022:40
DocScrutinizerfoobar22:41
DocScrutinizers/bar/XXX/22:41
DocScrutinizer~lart wpwrak 22:42
Action: infobot eats wpwrak and falls over dead22:42
DocScrutinizern8 folks22:46
--- Sat Mar 24 201200:00

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