| kristianpaul | ha, for the guys of laser and drones, http://guerrilladrone.feenelcaos.org/ | 02:13 |
|---|---|---|
| wpwrak | aye ;-) | 02:55 |
| wpwrak | as i said, blender is a mystery to me. the gui seems weird. and full of things i don't need. | 02:56 |
| kristianpaul | gui is changing | 02:56 |
| kristianpaul | but is not weird, is just all screwup :) | 02:56 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: ok, here | 02:57 |
| wolfspraul | I shall repeat | 02:57 |
| wolfspraul | referring to your openscad, cadmium, cgal comparison | 02:57 |
| wolfspraul | I was wondering where in the toolchain/process you see openscal (for example) used | 02:57 |
| wolfspraul | is it just to make animations of the case, for advertisement or educational purposes? | 02:57 |
| wolfspraul | like an animated (dis)assembly guide... | 02:58 |
| wolfspraul | if so, even if Blender (for example) is not 'scripted', so what? can blender be used to describe case parts? | 02:58 |
| wolfspraul | if it's just about animations anyway, blender may not be so off-topic then | 02:58 |
| wpwrak | i didn't look at animations. just "static" 3D models. | 02:58 |
| wolfspraul | main question: what are the openscad files used for? | 02:59 |
| wpwrak | i'm not sure openscad can even do animations. blender does, of course. | 02:59 |
| wpwrak | i would want to use them for milling | 03:00 |
| wpwrak | that is, the mesh the cad program generates | 03:00 |
| wpwrak | send it through a toolpath generator, and then off to the mill | 03:00 |
| wpwrak | of course, the toolpath generator is a bit tricky :) i've solved that for 2D. but for 3D, i'd still have to go via heekscad | 03:01 |
| wolfspraul | milling, hmm | 03:01 |
| wolfspraul | so it makes most sense for parts with curved surfaces | 03:01 |
| wolfspraul | for example the current m1 case starts with flat acrylic parts | 03:02 |
| wolfspraul | and the only thing happening to those parts is to cut some holes/edges | 03:02 |
| wolfspraul | no need for a mesh, openscad, milling | 03:02 |
| kristianpaul | or plastic extrude, yeah heekscad is pretty good for that too :) | 03:02 |
| wolfspraul | right? | 03:02 |
| wolfspraul | xiangfu: let the fun start. I will go through a real-time test of your --qi image now | 03:02 |
| wolfspraul | m1 the bug minefield, let's see how far I make it ;-) (nobody's fault, I love the thing and our work) | 03:03 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: I see you had to hold yourself back replying to Yi's "found 2 bugs" mail ;-) | 03:03 |
| wolfspraul | we should proudly declare m1 to be the buggiest computing platform ever | 03:03 |
| wolfspraul | I think we can easily declare m1 to hold at least (!) 1000 bugs :-) | 03:04 |
| wpwrak | naw, it's not the buggiest ;-) | 03:04 |
| wpwrak | (m1 case) yes, i'd consider this a purely 2D problem. (unless you change the case :) | 03:05 |
| wolfspraul | we should offer our customers a special return right - *if* they don't find a bug in the first hour of using the product, they have a right to return for full refund... :-) | 03:05 |
| wolfspraul | (I've actually seen that with some other open hardware products, and I liked the idea) | 03:05 |
| wolfspraul | so for the current m1 case, any openscad endeavor would mostly be for the purpose of visualizing the case, animations, ads, educational, illustrated guide, etc. | 03:06 |
| wolfspraul | which means - for that use case - one might also look at Blender, at least compare | 03:06 |
| wpwrak | if you want to make an unboxing movie, then yes, something like blender should be suitable. not sure how well it can be scripted, though | 03:07 |
| wolfspraul | sure | 03:07 |
| wolfspraul | that's why I was asking about 'what is the end goal' first | 03:08 |
| wpwrak | as far as i know, it's not parametric, so you'd have to use scripting as a workaround. that is, if you value your sanity ;-) | 03:08 |
| wolfspraul | because I'm sure in terms of artistic freedom, blender will give you more options | 03:08 |
| wolfspraul | say you want to project images, lights, gradients, whatever on the sides | 03:08 |
| wolfspraul | you want to rotate it, you want to make the case appear in a 3D stage setting, and so on | 03:08 |
| wpwrak | yes. what i don't know is if blender is good for cad. i was looking for construction. "part A being 10.5 mm from part B" vs. "drag it into that corner until it looks good" :) | 03:14 |
| wolfspraul | yes I totally understand | 03:14 |
| wolfspraul | if the end goal is to mill non-flat surfaces, makes perfect sense | 03:14 |
| zenlunatic | sometimes my ben shutsoff when i pick it up | 03:57 |
| zenlunatic | nvm forgot to upgrade the default firmware | 03:59 |
| jow_laptop | hm there's a libdirectfb binding for Lua now, might be worth porting to the NN | 16:49 |
| kristianpaul | and milkymist ;-) | 16:54 |
| jow_laptop | yeah, for visual scripting | 16:55 |
| jow_laptop | https://github.com/ezequielgarcia/directfb-lua | 16:57 |
| jow_laptop | the examples look neat | 16:58 |
| jow_laptop | very simple | 16:58 |
| zenlunatic | is there an appropriate entity to donate to for ben development? openwrt? | 18:15 |
| viric | zumbi: què hi fas per aquí? | 18:29 |
| Ayla | it would be time to update the "about" page of GMenu2X | 19:06 |
| whitequark | wpwrak: suddenly pstree/ | 19:12 |
| wpwrak | whitequark: mmh ? | 21:17 |
| whitequark | wpwrak: I (again) stumbled upon your name in psmisc AUTHORS. which (again) has surprised be a bit :) | 21:33 |
| wpwrak | whitequark: ah ;-) | 21:35 |
| wpwrak | yeah. join early, plant seeds, get credit for life ;-) | 21:35 |
| whitequark | exactly | 21:37 |
| wpwrak | DocScrutinizer: i have a little signal integrity riddle: looking at J21 and J22 in the upper right corner of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/adam/m1/tmp/m1r4/FPGA_J21_breakcompatibi | 22:33 |
| wpwrak | lity.pdf | 22:33 |
| wpwrak | let's try this again: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/adam/m1/tmp/m1r4/FPGA_J21_breakcompatibility.pdf | 22:33 |
| wpwrak | so, we have ground on both ends of the connector. is this generally a good idea ? i think it should be, because it provides more direct ground return and also puts a ground close to supply rail, which in turn should make it easier to bypass components on single-sided boards. | 22:35 |
| wpwrak | what i don't know is just how desirable this is, compared to having just one pair of ground pins. would the difference be major ? or negligible. | 22:36 |
| wpwrak | e.g., in terms of the maximum signal frequency we can use. the connectors are 0.1" headers. not exactly RF, but we should make the best of them :) | 22:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | please rephrase "which in turn should make it easier to bypass components" | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | impact on HF: none | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd rather dedicate one GND to 3.3/5V | 22:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | basically it's waste of wires on flat cable | 22:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | unless you expect to power massive dirty load via 3V3 or 5V | 22:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | where separate GND lines might have a very positive effect for noise floor | 22:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | OTOH there are de-facto standard wire counts for flat cable, and rather unusual ones. Can't say if 20 is the former or the latter category | 22:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe just keep 1 or 2 of those 4 GND lines NC with a open thruhole testpad, to use for mods of any kind | 22:51 |
| wpwrak | before we had 18, which was a non-standard count. 20 seems to be fine. (we went to 20 a few days ago, just because of this) | 22:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | at very least route PCB in a way so user easily can cut GND connection of 1 or 2 of those GND lines, then solder a wire to solder side of header | 22:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | btw I'm not really happy with pinout of J21 | 22:54 |
| wpwrak | the headers may be used with cables. or with boards. | 22:54 |
| wpwrak | ah, why ? | 22:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | figure what happens when plugged in 180° rotated | 22:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | you get 5V to GND and GND to some GPIO | 22:54 |
| wpwrak | you learn from your mistakes :) | 22:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | particularly L21P_1 and L9N_1 | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | will get reverse 5V | 22:56 |
| wpwrak | yes ... but it's kinda hard to fix this, no ? unless we require that a circuit always connects all the grounds. they we could cook up some scheme that shorts 5V to GND if reversed | 22:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | also for RF/EMI it was better to have VDD on 1,3 and GND on 2,4 (or vice versa) | 22:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | but that defeats your safety gap from 5V to IO | 22:58 |
| wpwrak | yeah | 22:59 |
| wpwrak | also, J21 has the "pair of supplies and both ends" concept in M1rc2/3. rearranging this would totally break compatibility. | 22:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | tbh I'd consider cut away post 3 on J21 | 23:00 |
| wpwrak | we could do this with J22, though. not sure if it would make things better it worse. | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | and recommend a plug in pos 3 of connector | 23:00 |
| wpwrak | for keying ? | 23:00 |
| wpwrak | you mean a rubber plug ? | 23:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 23:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | blocks any user that tries to insert plug 180° rotated | 23:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | if user thinks he doesn't need that, it's not us to blame for blue smoke | 23:02 |
| wpwrak | why pin 3 and not pin 1 or 2 ? | 23:02 |
| wpwrak | pin 3 would be good for J22, though | 23:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | on J22 you could cut pin4 instead | 23:03 |
| wpwrak | yes, 3 or 4. | 23:03 |
| wpwrak | why 3 o J21 ? and not 1/2 ? | 23:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever | 23:03 |
| wpwrak | ;-) | 23:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | thought J21 has 4 GND, one less is no problem | 23:04 |
| wpwrak | both currently have 4 x GND | 23:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 23:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | that'S why I suggested 3 on one and 4 on the other | 23:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | err | 23:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe 1 or 2 on J22 | 23:05 |
| wpwrak | and 3/4 on J21 ? or also 1/2 ? | 23:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok, my ultimate advice: cut pin1 on J22. Cut pin4 on J21 | 23:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | dedicate adjacent GND to the 3V3 resp 5V line | 23:08 |
| wpwrak | grmbl. not all of those nipples are created equal :-( | 23:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | declare J21:3 as 'dirty' and 4 as 'clean' | 23:09 |
| wpwrak | i just tried to make such a keyed female connector. but the rubber/plastic key doesn't fit | 23:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm | 23:10 |
| wpwrak | dirty ? clean ? one is connected to other isn't :) | 23:10 |
| wpwrak | (rubber thing) well, it's a sourcing problem :) | 23:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | in RL yes, but in clean theory we have two distinct lines | 23:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | a future rev may introduce a fuse and choke and buffer C on M1 for J21:2,3 | 23:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | NOT for J21:4 | 23:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | get my idea? | 23:13 |
| wpwrak | not sure. would you leave the pin unconnected on the M1 side ? or just ground it ? | 23:13 |
| wpwrak | (M1 is female) | 23:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | for same reason I'd layout board in a way so user can cut up path from J21:3 to GND | 23:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | dang s/21/22/ | 23:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | J22:1 cut // 2 GND_3V3 // 3 3V3_dirty // 4 3V3 clean | 23:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | J21:1,2 5V // 3 GND_5V // 4 cut | 23:19 |
| wpwrak | what would you use 3V3_dirty for ? | 23:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | 3V3_clean aka 3V3_digital, same domain as all the IO and GND on 19,20 | 23:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | 3V3_dirty for dunno motors etc | 23:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | 3V3_clean for digital | 23:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's all mere definition for now | 23:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | though user already should follow these guidelines on his extension board | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | when he doesn't need 3V3_clean for the digital part of his stepper motor control, leave it NC | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | will make a nice separator on flat cable | 23:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | less crosstalk to IO_L1P_A25_1 | 23:24 |
| wpwrak | hmm. with the current circuit, expansion boards would have to provide their own cleaning. | 23:24 |
| wpwrak | which would seem appropriate punishment for trying to hook up motors :) | 23:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever, you got my suggestion | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | o/ | 23:25 |
| wpwrak | :) | 23:25 |
| wpwrak | the clean/dirty rails scare me :) | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | call it raw and digital then | 23:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | err, other way round, of course | 23:27 |
| wpwrak | we already have "raw". but that's something else. | 23:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | clean==digital | 23:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/raw/high power | 23:27 |
| wpwrak | i'd just say "don't connect motors, tesla coils, or tachyon colliders" :) | 23:27 |
| wpwrak | let's not over-engineer this :) | 23:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd just say "never short the two 3V3 at your extension board. Use 4 for digital and 3 for other supply purposes" | 23:28 |
| wpwrak | if we really wanted to supply tons of power, we could add 5V/GND header right at the DC input. do as they do in PCs. | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | who's over-engineering this now | 23:29 |
| wpwrak | i'm not saying i want to add this ;-) | 23:29 |
| wpwrak | that was conditional irrealis (or whatever you call this in english) :) | 23:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm just suggesting one or two sentences in user manual, on recommended use of those lines | 23:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | no engineering at all involved | 23:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | or all just engineering and no real changes | 23:30 |
| wpwrak | my concern is that we want neither a massive power drawn nor anything sparky in that area | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | so you should add a thrid sentence for that | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-D | 23:31 |
| wpwrak | we probably have 500 mA absolute maximum of 3.3 V and 5 V combined | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's not the absolute current but rather the edges | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | slew rate | 23:32 |
| wpwrak | but i like the keying :) | 23:32 |
| wpwrak | (edges) yup. but then, they're most likely to exist on digital anyway | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | and if you drive a 1W LED from the 3V3, I strongly suggest doing this via J21:3 only, NOT via J21:4 | 23:33 |
| wpwrak | so with that logic, you'd prefer to connect digital to the scrubber :) | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | *sigh* | 23:33 |
| wpwrak | ;-) | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't feel like discussing this right now | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | use it or bin it | 23:34 |
| wpwrak | i'll file it | 23:34 |
| wpwrak | since we don't have a scrubber at present, there's nothing to be gained by adding design rules that are irrelevant in practice | 23:35 |
| wpwrak | better if people who do nasty things design their own scrubber | 23:35 |
| wpwrak | it'll also be closer to the consumer, thus we'll have less EMI from the nasty stuff | 23:36 |
| wpwrak | btw, are you on the milkymist mailing list ? | 23:37 |
| wolfspraul | good morning everybody | 23:44 |
| wolfspraul | nice to see Joerg - hope you are well! | 23:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, I kinda grew old during the last 4 years | 23:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | working 10h/day leaves me wasted | 23:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | otherwise fine | 23:46 |
| wolfspraul | we have to find a jungbrunnen for you :-) | 23:46 |
| wpwrak | hmm. you started in december. that's 3 months. yet you feel as if 4 years had passed. so you're accelerated by a factor of 16 :) | 23:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah, that deficit in available power predated the start of job at STE | 23:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | and actually job starts to relax a bit, since quantum to learn per day diminished from a month's equivalent to something more manageable | 23:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | the hardest part though is going to sleep err 50min ago ;-) | 23:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | to show up at work 8 o'clock in the morning (sth I haven't managed to accomplish a single time yet) | 23:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | next week I *have* to | 23:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | 3 day seminar on code qulaity, held by ENEA | 23:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | n8 | 23:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | yesterday I got the shocking info they want to keep me for at least another 4 months | 23:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | and expect to extend that to end of 2012 | 23:54 |
| wpwrak | my condolences ! ;-) | 23:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | thanks | 23:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | so I have the exciting perspective to handle another few tickets like "one out of 3000 devices shows 100% reproducible data corruption of downloaded file. Please check driver of the interface used for download!" | 23:59 |
| wpwrak | ;-)) | 23:59 |
| --- Thu Mar 1 2012 | 00:00 | |
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