#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2012-02-05

larscsee, there is that someone again ;)00:07
NecrosporusIs NanoNote going to became any cheeper?04:15
NecrosporusI think, it would be a good device to use as password keeping, the field where absolute lack of network connectivity is rather good than bad04:16
NecrosporusBut there is notebooks for 60 bucks with better hardware, wm8650 based with 256 MiB of RAM04:17
wolfspraulNecrosporus: definitely will not become cheaper04:20
wolfspraulI like cheap hardware, and technology should and can be cheap, but at this time the most important priority is more high quality free software04:20
NecrosporusBut why? It's xburst and 300 mhz 64 mb ram, and 99 bucks, while I bought a notebook with 800 MHz processor, 256 MiB RAM, and 1024x600 screen for 120 bucks04:22
wolfspraul32 mb ram04:26
wolfspraulwhat is your point?04:26
wolfspraulare you happy with your notebook?04:26
wolfspraulthe Ben NanoNote is a 120 gram device that fits in your pocket04:27
wolfsprauland it runs an ever increasing list of high quality free software, which we are carefully maintaining04:27
wolfspraulthat's about it :-)04:28
Necrosporuswolfspraul, actually. the notebook is on my table not used for month04:30
wolfspraulhe04:31
Necrosporusyeah, I'm too lazy to configure it...04:31
NecrosporusIt runs Android04:31
wolfspraulmaybe you should not have spent the 60 usd for it and get some nice food instead?04:31
NecrosporusIt's because I have also other notebook, which is bigger04:31
wolfspraulyeah, so it sounds like the 60 USD were wasted...04:32
NecrosporusNope04:32
NecrosporusI guess, I will use the smaller one later04:32
wolfspraulok04:32
NecrosporusWhen I will have to go somewhere04:32
NecrosporusThe main one is a bit too big04:33
wolfspraulunderstood04:33
wolfspraulso the Ben is even smaller04:33
wolfspraulruns free software like vim, mutt, emacs, mplayer and many others04:33
Necrosporuslacks any connectivity04:34
Necrosporusso mutt is useless04:34
Necrosporusthe android notebook can run vim and other console stuff as well04:34
NecrosporusI haven't managed it to run usual GNU/Linux, but I think, it's possible04:37
NecrosporusThat's main cause why I do not use it yet, because android is not very well suited for netbooks and I don't configure it because I expect it to be removed04:38
NecrosporusExcept I have modified the firmware in order to remove some proprietary or useless stuff, like google apps and adobe flash04:39
wpwrakNecrosporus: the ben or a device similar to it could be much cheaper if it was sold in large volume. but this isn't likely to happen at the moment.05:31
Necrosporuswpwrak, but it can't be sold in large volume because of price, right?05:33
wpwrakdepends. if you find an application that makes it worth the price.05:34
NecrosporusA password keeper05:34
Necrosporusno network connectivity05:34
wpwrakyes. the idea isn't new. i tought of that the first time i saw a ben :)05:34
wpwrakand indeed, the less connectivity, the better :)05:35
wpwrakone issue is that you'd want to make changes to the keyboard layout. people would expect it to reflect that purpose more closely.05:35
Necrosporushow?05:36
wpwrakand we don't have that level of design ownership when it comes to the mechanical side05:36
NecrosporusPassword keeper + scientific calculator05:36
wpwrake.g., no function keys. probably no volume button. probably you'd remove audio altogether05:36
NecrosporusAlso, there is special scientific calculators, which are fairly expensive compared to the Ben05:37
NecrosporusOnes which can draw function graphics05:37
Necrosporusand maybe "natural view"05:37
pabs3wpwrak: what do you mean by "design ownership"?05:37
wpwrakyes, you could implement that as well05:38
Necrosporuswpwrak, sound doesn't make it less secure, I guess05:38
wpwrakpabs3: we don't own the CAD data or have manufacturing knowledge for the ben's case or keyboard05:38
wolfspraulone by one. The Ben is a first step.05:38
pabs3wpwrak: ah, I see05:39
wolfspraulit's a bit difficult to explain the trajectory to someone who isn't really diving into the hardware and manufacturing world.05:39
wpwrakNecrosporus: it depends on as what you sell it - a general-purpose linux device running a specific application, or a single-function device05:39
wpwrakNecrosporus: single-function device is simpler, because people will compare a general-purpose device with the feature set of their smartphone, tablet, etc., and there it will lose05:40
wpwrakfor a high-quality password safe, there's also the question of tamper-proofing the device. e.g., how do we make sure someone doesn't flash a keylogger when you leave your device unattended ?05:42
wpwrakthe very openness that's we desire in the ben works against us in this case05:42
wpwrakobviously, if it has a closed source kernel, an obscure and undocumented architecture, and a locked boot loader, it would be more secure as a password safe05:43
NecrosporusYeah, it's the idea, make a scientific calculator based on this device, which will boot into scientific calculator mode right out of the box with only way to access other stuff via usb boot05:43
Necrosporuswpwrak, nope05:44
Necrosporusopposite05:44
Necrosporusif it's open one can easily check it doesn't have a hidden radio module, using to steal passwords05:44
Necrosporusor something05:44
wpwrak(calculator) do it. tell the world about it. if it boosts ben sales, this may path the way to a next and better nanonote05:45
wolfspraulthe scientific calculator needs great software05:45
wpwrak"easily" for whom ? :)05:46
NecrosporusI do not have a factory05:46
wolfsprauland the math stuff we have on the Ben is closer and closer to being 'serious'05:46
NecrosporusGNU Octave?05:46
wpwrakNecrosporus: wolfspraul still has a lot of bens in his warehouse :)05:46
wolfspraulyes, runs05:46
wolfsprauland that's good. if I would run out I would need to hurry up with the Ya.05:46
wolfspraulbecause the one thing I am committed to is to not run out of stick, and software continuity.05:46
NecrosporusI think, it's the way to boost ben sales: make a calculator based on it with only hardware difference in keyboard labels05:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: if the ben suddenly starts selling like crazy, maybe you'd even get the last batch of 1000/3000 made ;-))05:47
wolfspraulone by one, like I said. I can easily stand behind the Ben I am selling now.05:47
wpwrakNecrosporus: changing the keyboard is not easy05:48
NecrosporusIt must be cheaper and more functional than existing calculators05:48
wolfsprauland if someone is happier with an Android netbook/phone, MTK, iOS - please go for it05:48
wolfspraulthe Ben is different05:48
Necrosporuswpwrak, only labels have to be changed05:48
Necrosporusinto math symbols05:48
wolfspraulnah, it must be better, easier to use05:48
wpwrakNecrosporus: do yo uknow how to do this cheaply ?05:48
wolfspraulto enter the market seriously, it would probably need to be more expensive05:48
wpwrakNecrosporus: if yes, tell us how :)05:48
Necrosporusby hand and acetone05:48
wolfspraulbut that's a business question, and we are still somewhere in the foundation...05:48
wpwrak(acetone) hmm ...05:49
wolfspraulcheap = no value = no investor, no push into the market, no margins for resellers, good service, etc.05:49
wolfsprauleven the Ben is pushing it, but we started it at 99 USD now and I will keep it there05:49
wolfspraulNecrosporus: if you are interested in math, the Ben might actually have something for you05:50
wolfspraulsince you already know GNU Octave :-)05:50
wpwrakNecrosporus: at least on my bens, i don't think acetone would accomplish much :) but i'm not going to try. it it works, it'll dissolve half of the keyboard05:50
wolfspraulhere is our messy list of apps that is running on the Ben http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications05:50
wpwrak(the keys seem to have a transparent layer on top of the labels)05:51
wolfsprauland here's the changelog so you can see how it has been shaping up over the last 2 years http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/OpenWrt_Software_Image#Change_Log05:51
wpwrakand the general physical structure of the keyboard is not trivial. you should get a ben, take it apart, get a feeling of what's involved in changing it05:52
wolfspraulwhen we started selling, the Ben barely booted into the console and you could run vim :-)05:52
wpwrakthen, if you have an idea, you can try and see what works05:52
NecrosporusI do not know GNU octave05:56
NecrosporusI just know it exists05:56
wolfspraulgood. and it runs on the Ben NanoNote today.06:10
wolfspraulwhatever that may be worth to you now, but that's one of the main things going for the Ben (together with many other software packages).06:11
wolfspraulalso I remember when we started, GNU Octave was this far-away goal for the Ben, so many dependencies missing. But one by one, and in this case with a lot of help from David Kuehling and others, we actually have it on the Ben today, so it will be on future devices too :-)06:11
whitequarkhttp://wonko.com/post/etherpad-source-includes-jsmin07:51
whitequarkhave I promised to bring osPID updates here?14:34
whitequarkhttp://www.ospid.com/blog/production-update/14:35
rohwhitequark: any idea why there is not even a schematic avail for download?16:51
whitequarkroh: they will release it after they'll produce first batch17:32
whitequarkit was stated somewhere on the site17:32
whitequarkI don't quite understand why17:32
rohwhitequark: then its vapourware and not opensource.17:45
rohadvertising fraud17:45
whitequarkroh: I'd rather presume they are innocent unless proven guilty17:49
whitequarkand not the other way around17:49
rohwhitequark: release often, release early.17:51
rohif you talk a lot and do not release -> do not trust.17:51
rohthats what ive learned the hard way.17:52
whitequarkroh: we'll see17:52
rohtrust is lost faster than gained.17:52
whitequarkI'd stay with you if it was some big company17:52
rohdoesnt matter17:53
rohif you have photos of pcbs and no schematics its not accident.17:53
whitequarkhm17:53
rohits on purpose17:53
whitequarkI wrote the author17:56
rohtoo bad. i like opensource hw.17:56
rohchecked out the coffemaschine17:56
rohbut its 120V ac only thus i will not be able to use it17:57
roh*sigh*17:57
whitequarkcoffemaschine?17:58
rohhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine?ref=live17:59
rohbut hey.. i should have stopped when seeing its on kickstarter *g*17:59
whitequarkwhat's wrong with kickstarter?17:59
rohus only.18:00
whitequarkah18:00
rohand the concept makes for 'business only, no non-profit projects'18:00
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: had you seem motorola actv watch?18:03
DocScrutinizernope18:10
DocScrutinizeranother mcp430 POC&RnD?18:10
kristianpaulhttp://www.cmw.me/?q=node/5518:12
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: omap3 so i tought you may like that :)18:13
DocScrutinizerhmm, nice. Thanks kristianpaul 18:17
rohhrr.. another watch with batteries which do not last a day?18:30
rohlike the ti msp430 toy18:30
DocScrutinizeraah msp not mcp18:37
rohi am still waiting for an android based device which lasts 24hours without recharge and suspend18:38
whitequarkroh: ahem18:41
whitequarkah, suspend. misread it18:41
whitequarkwhat exactly do you mean by "not suspended"?18:42
rohnot cheating.18:42
whitequarkdisplay on? cpu running? loadavg == 1?18:42
rohworking and useable.18:42
rohsimply not suspended. no cpu on clock 0, no wakeuptime18:42
whitequarkI don't understand. My phone can last for days if "turned off"; GSM on, WiFi on.18:42
rohits ok to save power disabling the display18:42
rohi know of no android device (same goes for apple i*) which lasts 24hours18:43
roheven less than 12 if one uses em even slightly18:43
whitequark"uses" may vary a lot.18:44
whitequarkreally18:44
whitequarkbut I understand what you mean, through18:44
whitequarkit's hard to define this condition formally18:44
rohuses means 'looks up stuff like an address, write a short mail'18:44
rohi havent asked for something which works when chatting via it.18:44
rohi have nothing against android per se. i just see that smartphones are actually not useable without recharging >1x a day.18:45
whitequarkyes. kind of. it has a lot of slick features and they drain the battery really quickly18:45
whitequarkI've found that limiting cpu to 500mhz (it's on 1.2g by default) a) enhances battery life a lot b) makes it much less hot c) does not impair even games18:46
rohi dont use games.18:46
whitequark*even*. that is, what uses more cpu than games?18:46
whitequarkat least on a smartphone18:46
rohnothing. doesnt matter. using the radio eats more energy than your cpu18:47
rohand thats basically what it was built for to do... 18:48
whitequarkmhm. I'll test that when I'll have some spare time18:48
rohi wish for a device which i can use like my featurephone (for days up to a week between charges INCLUDING some calls) and maybe even use for jabber/irc chatting18:53
rohthe latter would be ok to charge once a day. but with some spare power for calls etc. so basically i wish for '48hours of active use'18:53
rohnot the current '8-12hours'18:53
whitequarkfrom what Android says, it's the display which accounts for ~50% of power consumption18:54
whitequarkmaybe it lies18:54
whitequarkI don't know how they manage to measure power usage18:54
whitequarkit looks quite bogus18:54
rohnot different than the rest of the hw18:55
rohthey ask the battery columb counter18:55
whitequarkhm18:56
whitequarkwhen did it learned to measure usage for distinct components?18:56
rohthats just fake-math18:58
rohthere is nothing which really does measure it18:58
rohi mean.. seperately. 18:58
lindi-maybe some developer boards measure it separately and then they have built models based on that18:58
rohits knowing whats on and how it behaves. measured once and then they keep a 'ratio'18:59
rohlindi-: not even that. you can remove jumpers and add a amp-meter18:59
rohbut why do when you can 'switch off' the screen and do another complete measurement and repeat that often enough to account for noise19:00
lindi-yeah that works19:00
rohin the end after doing the same scheme for all seperate switchable units you get some 'approximate scheme' of power use per component19:00
rohand knowing 'whats on and whats off' is easy19:00
whitequarkhm19:04
whitequarkyes, that's the obvious way19:04
whitequarkI thought there was something more clever going on19:04
rohnaaah. clever costs extra19:05
roh;)19:05
whitequarkhe19:06
xakhokay, I logged on, but have to go soon, so I'm just going to leave an open question, and anyone who wants to answer it can drop me a line either via PM or on the chat. I think the screen for my nanonote broke. Is there a way to get and install a new one?23:15
dvdkxakh: why do you think so?  maybe it's just the brightness config that broke?  reinstalling the firmware might help then.23:35
dvdk(happened to me once)23:35
xakhwell, I doubt it23:36
xakhI found it under a bunch of stuff23:36
xakhand I feel like it got busted23:36
xakhI have to leave, like right now, so I'm just asking if there's a way to actually do this.23:36
dvdkxakh: need to ask the hardware guys :)  look out for wpwrak, maybe others can help.23:37
Action: dvdk somehow doubts it is possible23:37
kristianpaulxakh: it used to be a bus problem23:44
kristianpaulit just disconnect it self and the screen go off ..23:44
kristianpauls/got/get23:46
kristianpauls/go/get23:46
kristianpaulbrightness indeed could be, also in my nanontoe latelly i noticed data on screen is displaced to the right about 30pixels, i guess is software issues as it appear after i got a dally build image23:48
kristianpaulbut it fix after a reboot :)23:48
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