| larsc | see, there is that someone again ;) | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| Necrosporus | Is NanoNote going to became any cheeper? | 04:15 |
| Necrosporus | I think, it would be a good device to use as password keeping, the field where absolute lack of network connectivity is rather good than bad | 04:16 |
| Necrosporus | But there is notebooks for 60 bucks with better hardware, wm8650 based with 256 MiB of RAM | 04:17 |
| wolfspraul | Necrosporus: definitely will not become cheaper | 04:20 |
| wolfspraul | I like cheap hardware, and technology should and can be cheap, but at this time the most important priority is more high quality free software | 04:20 |
| Necrosporus | But why? It's xburst and 300 mhz 64 mb ram, and 99 bucks, while I bought a notebook with 800 MHz processor, 256 MiB RAM, and 1024x600 screen for 120 bucks | 04:22 |
| wolfspraul | 32 mb ram | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | what is your point? | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | are you happy with your notebook? | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | the Ben NanoNote is a 120 gram device that fits in your pocket | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | and it runs an ever increasing list of high quality free software, which we are carefully maintaining | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | that's about it :-) | 04:28 |
| Necrosporus | wolfspraul, actually. the notebook is on my table not used for month | 04:30 |
| wolfspraul | he | 04:31 |
| Necrosporus | yeah, I'm too lazy to configure it... | 04:31 |
| Necrosporus | It runs Android | 04:31 |
| wolfspraul | maybe you should not have spent the 60 usd for it and get some nice food instead? | 04:31 |
| Necrosporus | It's because I have also other notebook, which is bigger | 04:31 |
| wolfspraul | yeah, so it sounds like the 60 USD were wasted... | 04:32 |
| Necrosporus | Nope | 04:32 |
| Necrosporus | I guess, I will use the smaller one later | 04:32 |
| wolfspraul | ok | 04:32 |
| Necrosporus | When I will have to go somewhere | 04:32 |
| Necrosporus | The main one is a bit too big | 04:33 |
| wolfspraul | understood | 04:33 |
| wolfspraul | so the Ben is even smaller | 04:33 |
| wolfspraul | runs free software like vim, mutt, emacs, mplayer and many others | 04:33 |
| Necrosporus | lacks any connectivity | 04:34 |
| Necrosporus | so mutt is useless | 04:34 |
| Necrosporus | the android notebook can run vim and other console stuff as well | 04:34 |
| Necrosporus | I haven't managed it to run usual GNU/Linux, but I think, it's possible | 04:37 |
| Necrosporus | That's main cause why I do not use it yet, because android is not very well suited for netbooks and I don't configure it because I expect it to be removed | 04:38 |
| Necrosporus | Except I have modified the firmware in order to remove some proprietary or useless stuff, like google apps and adobe flash | 04:39 |
| wpwrak | Necrosporus: the ben or a device similar to it could be much cheaper if it was sold in large volume. but this isn't likely to happen at the moment. | 05:31 |
| Necrosporus | wpwrak, but it can't be sold in large volume because of price, right? | 05:33 |
| wpwrak | depends. if you find an application that makes it worth the price. | 05:34 |
| Necrosporus | A password keeper | 05:34 |
| Necrosporus | no network connectivity | 05:34 |
| wpwrak | yes. the idea isn't new. i tought of that the first time i saw a ben :) | 05:34 |
| wpwrak | and indeed, the less connectivity, the better :) | 05:35 |
| wpwrak | one issue is that you'd want to make changes to the keyboard layout. people would expect it to reflect that purpose more closely. | 05:35 |
| Necrosporus | how? | 05:36 |
| wpwrak | and we don't have that level of design ownership when it comes to the mechanical side | 05:36 |
| Necrosporus | Password keeper + scientific calculator | 05:36 |
| wpwrak | e.g., no function keys. probably no volume button. probably you'd remove audio altogether | 05:36 |
| Necrosporus | Also, there is special scientific calculators, which are fairly expensive compared to the Ben | 05:37 |
| Necrosporus | Ones which can draw function graphics | 05:37 |
| Necrosporus | and maybe "natural view" | 05:37 |
| pabs3 | wpwrak: what do you mean by "design ownership"? | 05:37 |
| wpwrak | yes, you could implement that as well | 05:38 |
| Necrosporus | wpwrak, sound doesn't make it less secure, I guess | 05:38 |
| wpwrak | pabs3: we don't own the CAD data or have manufacturing knowledge for the ben's case or keyboard | 05:38 |
| wolfspraul | one by one. The Ben is a first step. | 05:38 |
| pabs3 | wpwrak: ah, I see | 05:39 |
| wolfspraul | it's a bit difficult to explain the trajectory to someone who isn't really diving into the hardware and manufacturing world. | 05:39 |
| wpwrak | Necrosporus: it depends on as what you sell it - a general-purpose linux device running a specific application, or a single-function device | 05:39 |
| wpwrak | Necrosporus: single-function device is simpler, because people will compare a general-purpose device with the feature set of their smartphone, tablet, etc., and there it will lose | 05:40 |
| wpwrak | for a high-quality password safe, there's also the question of tamper-proofing the device. e.g., how do we make sure someone doesn't flash a keylogger when you leave your device unattended ? | 05:42 |
| wpwrak | the very openness that's we desire in the ben works against us in this case | 05:42 |
| wpwrak | obviously, if it has a closed source kernel, an obscure and undocumented architecture, and a locked boot loader, it would be more secure as a password safe | 05:43 |
| Necrosporus | Yeah, it's the idea, make a scientific calculator based on this device, which will boot into scientific calculator mode right out of the box with only way to access other stuff via usb boot | 05:43 |
| Necrosporus | wpwrak, nope | 05:44 |
| Necrosporus | opposite | 05:44 |
| Necrosporus | if it's open one can easily check it doesn't have a hidden radio module, using to steal passwords | 05:44 |
| Necrosporus | or something | 05:44 |
| wpwrak | (calculator) do it. tell the world about it. if it boosts ben sales, this may path the way to a next and better nanonote | 05:45 |
| wolfspraul | the scientific calculator needs great software | 05:45 |
| wpwrak | "easily" for whom ? :) | 05:46 |
| Necrosporus | I do not have a factory | 05:46 |
| wolfspraul | and the math stuff we have on the Ben is closer and closer to being 'serious' | 05:46 |
| Necrosporus | GNU Octave? | 05:46 |
| wpwrak | Necrosporus: wolfspraul still has a lot of bens in his warehouse :) | 05:46 |
| wolfspraul | yes, runs | 05:46 |
| wolfspraul | and that's good. if I would run out I would need to hurry up with the Ya. | 05:46 |
| wolfspraul | because the one thing I am committed to is to not run out of stick, and software continuity. | 05:46 |
| Necrosporus | I think, it's the way to boost ben sales: make a calculator based on it with only hardware difference in keyboard labels | 05:47 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: if the ben suddenly starts selling like crazy, maybe you'd even get the last batch of 1000/3000 made ;-)) | 05:47 |
| wolfspraul | one by one, like I said. I can easily stand behind the Ben I am selling now. | 05:47 |
| wpwrak | Necrosporus: changing the keyboard is not easy | 05:48 |
| Necrosporus | It must be cheaper and more functional than existing calculators | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | and if someone is happier with an Android netbook/phone, MTK, iOS - please go for it | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | the Ben is different | 05:48 |
| Necrosporus | wpwrak, only labels have to be changed | 05:48 |
| Necrosporus | into math symbols | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | nah, it must be better, easier to use | 05:48 |
| wpwrak | Necrosporus: do yo uknow how to do this cheaply ? | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | to enter the market seriously, it would probably need to be more expensive | 05:48 |
| wpwrak | Necrosporus: if yes, tell us how :) | 05:48 |
| Necrosporus | by hand and acetone | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | but that's a business question, and we are still somewhere in the foundation... | 05:48 |
| wpwrak | (acetone) hmm ... | 05:49 |
| wolfspraul | cheap = no value = no investor, no push into the market, no margins for resellers, good service, etc. | 05:49 |
| wolfspraul | even the Ben is pushing it, but we started it at 99 USD now and I will keep it there | 05:49 |
| wolfspraul | Necrosporus: if you are interested in math, the Ben might actually have something for you | 05:50 |
| wolfspraul | since you already know GNU Octave :-) | 05:50 |
| wpwrak | Necrosporus: at least on my bens, i don't think acetone would accomplish much :) but i'm not going to try. it it works, it'll dissolve half of the keyboard | 05:50 |
| wolfspraul | here is our messy list of apps that is running on the Ben http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications | 05:50 |
| wpwrak | (the keys seem to have a transparent layer on top of the labels) | 05:51 |
| wolfspraul | and here's the changelog so you can see how it has been shaping up over the last 2 years http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/OpenWrt_Software_Image#Change_Log | 05:51 |
| wpwrak | and the general physical structure of the keyboard is not trivial. you should get a ben, take it apart, get a feeling of what's involved in changing it | 05:52 |
| wolfspraul | when we started selling, the Ben barely booted into the console and you could run vim :-) | 05:52 |
| wpwrak | then, if you have an idea, you can try and see what works | 05:52 |
| Necrosporus | I do not know GNU octave | 05:56 |
| Necrosporus | I just know it exists | 05:56 |
| wolfspraul | good. and it runs on the Ben NanoNote today. | 06:10 |
| wolfspraul | whatever that may be worth to you now, but that's one of the main things going for the Ben (together with many other software packages). | 06:11 |
| wolfspraul | also I remember when we started, GNU Octave was this far-away goal for the Ben, so many dependencies missing. But one by one, and in this case with a lot of help from David Kuehling and others, we actually have it on the Ben today, so it will be on future devices too :-) | 06:11 |
| whitequark | http://wonko.com/post/etherpad-source-includes-jsmin | 07:51 |
| whitequark | have I promised to bring osPID updates here? | 14:34 |
| whitequark | http://www.ospid.com/blog/production-update/ | 14:35 |
| roh | whitequark: any idea why there is not even a schematic avail for download? | 16:51 |
| whitequark | roh: they will release it after they'll produce first batch | 17:32 |
| whitequark | it was stated somewhere on the site | 17:32 |
| whitequark | I don't quite understand why | 17:32 |
| roh | whitequark: then its vapourware and not opensource. | 17:45 |
| roh | advertising fraud | 17:45 |
| whitequark | roh: I'd rather presume they are innocent unless proven guilty | 17:49 |
| whitequark | and not the other way around | 17:49 |
| roh | whitequark: release often, release early. | 17:51 |
| roh | if you talk a lot and do not release -> do not trust. | 17:51 |
| roh | thats what ive learned the hard way. | 17:52 |
| whitequark | roh: we'll see | 17:52 |
| roh | trust is lost faster than gained. | 17:52 |
| whitequark | I'd stay with you if it was some big company | 17:52 |
| roh | doesnt matter | 17:53 |
| roh | if you have photos of pcbs and no schematics its not accident. | 17:53 |
| whitequark | hm | 17:53 |
| roh | its on purpose | 17:53 |
| whitequark | I wrote the author | 17:56 |
| roh | too bad. i like opensource hw. | 17:56 |
| roh | checked out the coffemaschine | 17:56 |
| roh | but its 120V ac only thus i will not be able to use it | 17:57 |
| roh | *sigh* | 17:57 |
| whitequark | coffemaschine? | 17:58 |
| roh | http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine?ref=live | 17:59 |
| roh | but hey.. i should have stopped when seeing its on kickstarter *g* | 17:59 |
| whitequark | what's wrong with kickstarter? | 17:59 |
| roh | us only. | 18:00 |
| whitequark | ah | 18:00 |
| roh | and the concept makes for 'business only, no non-profit projects' | 18:00 |
| kristianpaul | DocScrutinizer: had you seem motorola actv watch? | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | nope | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | another mcp430 POC&RnD? | 18:10 |
| kristianpaul | http://www.cmw.me/?q=node/55 | 18:12 |
| kristianpaul | DocScrutinizer: omap3 so i tought you may like that :) | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm, nice. Thanks kristianpaul | 18:17 |
| roh | hrr.. another watch with batteries which do not last a day? | 18:30 |
| roh | like the ti msp430 toy | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | aah msp not mcp | 18:37 |
| roh | i am still waiting for an android based device which lasts 24hours without recharge and suspend | 18:38 |
| whitequark | roh: ahem | 18:41 |
| whitequark | ah, suspend. misread it | 18:41 |
| whitequark | what exactly do you mean by "not suspended"? | 18:42 |
| roh | not cheating. | 18:42 |
| whitequark | display on? cpu running? loadavg == 1? | 18:42 |
| roh | working and useable. | 18:42 |
| roh | simply not suspended. no cpu on clock 0, no wakeuptime | 18:42 |
| whitequark | I don't understand. My phone can last for days if "turned off"; GSM on, WiFi on. | 18:42 |
| roh | its ok to save power disabling the display | 18:42 |
| roh | i know of no android device (same goes for apple i*) which lasts 24hours | 18:43 |
| roh | even less than 12 if one uses em even slightly | 18:43 |
| whitequark | "uses" may vary a lot. | 18:44 |
| whitequark | really | 18:44 |
| whitequark | but I understand what you mean, through | 18:44 |
| whitequark | it's hard to define this condition formally | 18:44 |
| roh | uses means 'looks up stuff like an address, write a short mail' | 18:44 |
| roh | i havent asked for something which works when chatting via it. | 18:44 |
| roh | i have nothing against android per se. i just see that smartphones are actually not useable without recharging >1x a day. | 18:45 |
| whitequark | yes. kind of. it has a lot of slick features and they drain the battery really quickly | 18:45 |
| whitequark | I've found that limiting cpu to 500mhz (it's on 1.2g by default) a) enhances battery life a lot b) makes it much less hot c) does not impair even games | 18:46 |
| roh | i dont use games. | 18:46 |
| whitequark | *even*. that is, what uses more cpu than games? | 18:46 |
| whitequark | at least on a smartphone | 18:46 |
| roh | nothing. doesnt matter. using the radio eats more energy than your cpu | 18:47 |
| roh | and thats basically what it was built for to do... | 18:48 |
| whitequark | mhm. I'll test that when I'll have some spare time | 18:48 |
| roh | i wish for a device which i can use like my featurephone (for days up to a week between charges INCLUDING some calls) and maybe even use for jabber/irc chatting | 18:53 |
| roh | the latter would be ok to charge once a day. but with some spare power for calls etc. so basically i wish for '48hours of active use' | 18:53 |
| roh | not the current '8-12hours' | 18:53 |
| whitequark | from what Android says, it's the display which accounts for ~50% of power consumption | 18:54 |
| whitequark | maybe it lies | 18:54 |
| whitequark | I don't know how they manage to measure power usage | 18:54 |
| whitequark | it looks quite bogus | 18:54 |
| roh | not different than the rest of the hw | 18:55 |
| roh | they ask the battery columb counter | 18:55 |
| whitequark | hm | 18:56 |
| whitequark | when did it learned to measure usage for distinct components? | 18:56 |
| roh | thats just fake-math | 18:58 |
| roh | there is nothing which really does measure it | 18:58 |
| roh | i mean.. seperately. | 18:58 |
| lindi- | maybe some developer boards measure it separately and then they have built models based on that | 18:58 |
| roh | its knowing whats on and how it behaves. measured once and then they keep a 'ratio' | 18:59 |
| roh | lindi-: not even that. you can remove jumpers and add a amp-meter | 18:59 |
| roh | but why do when you can 'switch off' the screen and do another complete measurement and repeat that often enough to account for noise | 19:00 |
| lindi- | yeah that works | 19:00 |
| roh | in the end after doing the same scheme for all seperate switchable units you get some 'approximate scheme' of power use per component | 19:00 |
| roh | and knowing 'whats on and whats off' is easy | 19:00 |
| whitequark | hm | 19:04 |
| whitequark | yes, that's the obvious way | 19:04 |
| whitequark | I thought there was something more clever going on | 19:04 |
| roh | naaah. clever costs extra | 19:05 |
| roh | ;) | 19:05 |
| whitequark | he | 19:06 |
| xakh | okay, I logged on, but have to go soon, so I'm just going to leave an open question, and anyone who wants to answer it can drop me a line either via PM or on the chat. I think the screen for my nanonote broke. Is there a way to get and install a new one? | 23:15 |
| dvdk | xakh: why do you think so? maybe it's just the brightness config that broke? reinstalling the firmware might help then. | 23:35 |
| dvdk | (happened to me once) | 23:35 |
| xakh | well, I doubt it | 23:36 |
| xakh | I found it under a bunch of stuff | 23:36 |
| xakh | and I feel like it got busted | 23:36 |
| xakh | I have to leave, like right now, so I'm just asking if there's a way to actually do this. | 23:36 |
| dvdk | xakh: need to ask the hardware guys :) look out for wpwrak, maybe others can help. | 23:37 |
| Action: dvdk somehow doubts it is possible | 23:37 | |
| kristianpaul | xakh: it used to be a bus problem | 23:44 |
| kristianpaul | it just disconnect it self and the screen go off .. | 23:44 |
| kristianpaul | s/got/get | 23:46 |
| kristianpaul | s/go/get | 23:46 |
| kristianpaul | brightness indeed could be, also in my nanontoe latelly i noticed data on screen is displaced to the right about 30pixels, i guess is software issues as it appear after i got a dally build image | 23:48 |
| kristianpaul | but it fix after a reboot :) | 23:48 |
| --- Mon Feb 6 2012 | 00:00 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!