| rjeffries | This cries out for a little MilkyMist love | 04:38 |
|---|---|---|
| rjeffries | http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/12/ibniz-hardcore-audiovisual-virtual.html | 04:38 |
| kristianpaul | for 8 bits lovers | 04:39 |
| kristianpaul | oh my ears! | 04:39 |
| rjeffries | yup | 04:44 |
| rjeffries | and all who love brainfuck (at least as a style) | 04:45 |
| viric | sahip: Years ago I wrote something similar to taskwarrior in sh. http://vicerveza.homeunix.net/~viric/soft/bug/ | 08:07 |
| viric | sahip: but I stopped developing it, freezing the complexity and the functionality :) | 08:07 |
| viric | while the taskwarrior people have kept working hard | 08:08 |
| whitequark | iteadstudio sent me an interesting business card | 20:58 |
| whitequark | http://twitpic.com/80kbhh | 20:59 |
| wpwrak | how many MIPS ? | 20:59 |
| wpwrak | boring. no components | 20:59 |
| whitequark | heh | 20:59 |
| whitequark | on the software side | 21:01 |
| whitequark | I bought an Android phone (SGS2) | 21:01 |
| whitequark | then I've looked at the amount of blobs | 21:01 |
| wpwrak | (-:C | 21:01 |
| whitequark | WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS (lolwhat? why the hell GPS should be a blob?!), GSM of course | 21:01 |
| whitequark | *oh, no, Bluetooth isn't a blob | 21:02 |
| whitequark | but all others are | 21:02 |
| whitequark | and of course 3D acceleration is, too | 21:02 |
| wpwrak | yeah, give manufacturers the choice and everything is closed. they'll never learn. | 21:03 |
| whitequark | ... then I've looked at the amount of FOSS software for Android | 21:03 |
| whitequark | it's even worse | 21:03 |
| whitequark | currently I have a free PDF reader, and that's all | 21:04 |
| whitequark | every other application is closed | 21:04 |
| whitequark | skype, clock widget, video player (ffmpeg-based), stopwatch, todo list, three games | 21:04 |
| whitequark | apart from skype and games, there isn't any reason a good FOSS alternative cannot exist (I should note that Android itself supports SIP, through) | 21:05 |
| whitequark | but there are none (or they are so crappy no one would use them, ever) | 21:05 |
| viric | for manufacturers is far easier to keep all closed | 21:06 |
| whitequark | viric: why? just release your docs | 21:06 |
| viric | that can be a source of shame. a shame more important for the company than the shame of keeping all closed | 21:07 |
| whitequark | err | 21:07 |
| whitequark | sorry, what? | 21:07 |
| viric | I've never seen an engineer proud of how the product reaches the market | 21:08 |
| whitequark | I think that things like docs on 3D acceleration chip will only be understandable by a small circle of engineers/developers | 21:09 |
| whitequark | not much wider than the circle they're still reaching under NDAs and stuff | 21:09 |
| wpwrak | whitequark: that's what they want you to believe ;-) | 21:11 |
| wpwrak | whitequark: i'm sure they said the same thing about operating system kernels some 20 years ago :) | 21:11 |
| viric | I'm with wpwrak | 21:12 |
| wpwrak | viric: dunno. i experience a certain amount of pride and satisfaction with my open source work. maybe the shame is just a self-fulfilling prophecy ? | 21:12 |
| whitequark | I seriously doubt there are any odds of that doc popping out at Reddit with a shameful commentary | 21:12 |
| viric | And there are engineers in the closed companies ready to write articles about how bad you designed your product | 21:12 |
| whitequark | wpwrak: I'd say that operating system kernels are indeed understandable only by a small circle of developers, even now | 21:12 |
| wpwrak | and these professional bashers regularly get torn apart limb by limb in public discussions ;-) | 21:13 |
| viric | wpwrak: I don't mean proud making open source. I mean making devices or software on a company keeping all closed, and pushing you to deliver the next product next week, whatever the state of development of it | 21:13 |
| wpwrak | whitequark: only that this "small circle" has grown by several orders of magnitude in the last years, thanks to open source :) | 21:13 |
| whitequark | wpwrak: sure | 21:14 |
| whitequark | I still don't get the "shame" part | 21:14 |
| whitequark | seriously | 21:14 |
| whitequark | that sounds stupid and childish | 21:14 |
| viric | wpwrak: you don't have wolfspraul telling you: we have to release it! we have to release it! Whatever you have, next week it goes to production. We already spreaded the marketing. | 21:14 |
| wpwrak | viric: yeah, but as things get more open, the engineer can also fight back better :) | 21:14 |
| wpwrak | maybe that's why his betters like to keep him in the darkness :) | 21:15 |
| viric | Sure | 21:15 |
| viric | Imagine that the internal documentation has the same prose quality as a 10 year old child, among gramatical, ortographical and whatever errors you may imagine | 21:17 |
| viric | The drawings, looking like Micros~1 paint 1-minute mouse drawn schemes | 21:18 |
| viric | if not scanned from pencil | 21:18 |
| viric | and that brings the stamp of the company. | 21:18 |
| whitequark | oh. | 21:18 |
| whitequark | that's a... completely different reason that the ones I've heard earlier. | 21:19 |
| viric | it's an additional effort for the company to make internal documentation 'releasable', keeping the 'level of quality' usually related to that company | 21:19 |
| viric | Not to mention engineering errors... source code with trivial errors... parts outsourced payed very cheap, that does not matter if they fail from time to time, etc. | 21:19 |
| viric | lack of testing, etc. | 21:20 |
| viric | Once all the source is hidden, little may be visible for the final user | 21:20 |
| lars_ | yea, actually producing the documentation is usualy more complicated than releasing it | 21:20 |
| whitequark | hm | 21:20 |
| viric | I worked for a company where we used some GPL pieces | 21:20 |
| lars_ | and then there are all kinds of legal issues | 21:20 |
| viric | and we had to publish the modifications | 21:20 |
| viric | It was a big headache to do that... | 21:21 |
| viric | And we were told to use as less GPL as possible, just for the additional effort. | 21:21 |
| viric | yes, the legal part was the most complicated | 21:21 |
| viric | (and out of the engineers decisions. There was a group apart that had to be contacted for that. | 21:21 |
| viric | ) | 21:21 |
| viric | We had a great respect for GPL | 21:21 |
| viric | BUT | 21:21 |
| viric | the rule was to avoid the headache | 21:21 |
| viric | and 'not violating the GPL' was the easiest part. | 21:22 |
| viric | lars_: did you really mean "producing the documentation is more complicated than releasing it"? | 21:23 |
| wolfspraul | whitequark: let's not waste time complaining about bad software and devices, let's just make better ones | 21:25 |
| lars_ | viric: what i meant is that documentation doesn't always exist so you can release it | 21:27 |
| lars_ | or at least proper documentation | 21:27 |
| wolfspraul | documentation is best open from day 1 together with and same as the sources | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | hah, Friday night philosophical talk :-D | 21:28 |
| wolfspraul | yeah :-) | 21:28 |
| wolfspraul | how's your job going? full power into 2012? :-) | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | though last 2 days I gone mental about my state as employee | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | doubt I can stand it for a long time | 21:29 |
| whitequark | why? | 21:29 |
| wolfspraul | come on, that starts too fast! | 21:29 |
| lars_ | DocScrutinizer: welcome to the club | 21:29 |
| wolfspraul | DocScrutinizer: you are *sentenced* to only think like that after a minimum of 2 years :-) | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | income: 20% of what I'd get for same job on a freelancer basis. Obligations: twice as hard for me to conform with them | 21:30 |
| whitequark | then why the hell are you doing that? :) | 21:30 |
| viric | a girl | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | viric: indeed, correct | 21:31 |
| viric | :) | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | though not exactly the way you probably assume | 21:31 |
| viric | ha, so at the end, you are also human? | 21:31 |
| whitequark | what. | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | she forwarded the job offer to me | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | a friend of her brother in law is working at ST-E as well, and it happened they sat together in that pub... | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | she caled me and passed the phone to that other guy working for same company I do now | 21:35 |
| viric | did you work as a freelancer 'telecommuting'? | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | usually not | 21:35 |
| viric | (I imagine you earned a lot as a freelancer, and you earn as a usual employee now) | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | or maybe 30..60% max | 21:36 |
| viric | ok | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | I earned usual as freelancer, and I earn a bit sub par now | 21:37 |
| viric | In what country? | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | the mayour difference though is: I got 25 days holiday now :-( | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | major | 21:37 |
| viric | I only needed the country for some stereotypes :) | 21:38 |
| Action: whitequark just said "screw holidays" to his employer and begins to work on Jan 3rd | 21:38 | |
| DocScrutinizer | and I'm not that fit in sustaining my 130% power day for day. Helath issues even | 21:38 |
| viric | aha | 21:39 |
| viric | well, more work days and more work hours always take down efficiency | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | hah, Jan 2nd, and thanks to the 4 days off between xmess and now I have to work 11h/day al the January | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | to compensate | 21:39 |
| viric | You have to accept living a less efficient life :) | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | that'S something I impossibly can accept | 21:40 |
| viric | (if you subscribe being one more gear in the clockwork that gives money to company owners) | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm just hoping the stress due to learning all day will decay a bit from now on | 21:41 |
| viric | It's like tobacoo. It makes you cough at the beginning, then you get used, then you can't stop smoking, and then it kills you. | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | but right ATM I think odds are I won't do this job in 6 months anymore | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | viric: indeed | 21:42 |
| viric | Before it kills you, you vote for fascists to get into government | 21:42 |
| viric | :) | 21:42 |
| Action: DocScrutinizer extinguishes the cig and sips on his coffee | 21:43 | |
| kristianpaul | indeed i start to said that after two years :( | 21:44 |
| Action: kristianpaul sigh working remotelly today | 21:44 | |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd love to work remotely - I hate those mass offices | 21:45 |
| kristianpaul | me too, but i was supposed not work _today_ :( | 21:45 |
| kristianpaul | then emergency call :/ | 21:45 |
| kristianpaul | mass and cold offices ;) | 21:46 |
| viric | ah, emergencies are always more interesting that normal days | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | a bit odd, but hey, I'd be supposed to work today as well, I just take debit workhours I'll compensate next month | 21:46 |
| viric | The portuguese government may accept half an hour more of work day, to fight the crisis invented by money owners | 21:47 |
| viric | all sounds like the catholic church: your salvation comes through your (not my) suffering | 21:48 |
| kristianpaul | indeed ! | 21:48 |
| viric | And in Europe we have the Germans telling us lessons | 21:49 |
| viric | The experts in believing "we are the best" and making the others believe "Germans are the best" | 21:49 |
| viric | that old story. | 21:49 |
| viric | The biases of all popular media around are totally insulting, towards more fasciscm and more suffering, as our salvation. | 21:52 |
| viric | well you know the story :) | 21:53 |
| viric | whitequark: I liked your report on Android, btw. I did not imagine things that worse. | 21:54 |
| viric | that bad. | 21:54 |
| wpwrak | i wonder if cyganomod improves the situation a little | 21:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | here are other countries in EU than exactly Germany that I'd like to give a good kick into the guts for their government BS. E:G: Hungary | 21:59 |
| viric | I've heard very very bad news about the current hungarian government | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | reinventing absolutism | 21:59 |
| viric | aha | 22:00 |
| viric | with a paint cover of democracy | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | HAH | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | thin paint | 22:00 |
| viric | yes | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | today the last free radio station closes down | 22:00 |
| viric | sad | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | meanwhile they're actually worse than Russia or Turkey | 22:01 |
| viric | I only read that about hungary out of common media | 22:01 |
| viric | two days ago. | 22:01 |
| viric | Before that - absolute silence. | 22:01 |
| viric | (common media keeps on with the silence) | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | and those turds are a member of EU | 22:02 |
| viric | the EU does not get into politics | 22:02 |
| viric | they are there for the money. | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | and may do this, without getting a big red stop sign by all others | 22:02 |
| viric | I don't think any ruling person in the EU cares about that | 22:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | I guess all other governments think "let's see how it goes with them, we'd like to do same thing maybe 2 years later if they succeed" | 22:03 |
| viric | They are only going to look at the accounting sheets presented by the hungarian government, and that's lal | 22:04 |
| viric | all | 22:04 |
| wpwrak | why wait a whole 2 years ? | 22:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | it takes 2 years to properly manipulate the votes | 22:05 |
| viric | Ha | 22:05 |
| viric | in your case, at least they need to manipulate the votes. | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 22:05 |
| viric | like russia. | 22:05 |
| viric | but in Spain, noone doubts the votes are all correctly counted | 22:05 |
| viric | neither left or right. | 22:05 |
| viric | (although absolutism is not in such advanced state as in magyar) | 22:07 |
| viric | hungary | 22:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://opensource.srlabs.de/projects/catcher/wiki :-D | 22:24 |
| kristianpaul | ah yeah | 22:24 |
| kristianpaul | i wonder why there is no green or such in this table :) | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | green is when no criterion applies | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | or rather: no flag is "green" | 22:36 |
| kristianpaul | surelly :) | 23:05 |
| viric | this osmocom battle is really amazing | 23:07 |
| viric | I hope someone writes a book about it | 23:07 |
| viric | It deserves lots of notoriety | 23:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, Harald is amazing | 23:25 |
| --- Sat Dec 31 2011 | 00:00 | |
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