#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-12-11

rejonwpwrak, what are you adding to m1?01:11
rejona new compiler?01:11
wpwraki'm restructuring the existing one01:12
rejonits a thing of beauty to see new code coming in01:13
rejonso thorough01:13
rejoninspiring01:13
wpwrakit used to be split in a very inconvenient way, with part handling the parsing of lines and a separate part parsing the content of the lines01:14
wpwrak(roughly)01:14
wpwrakhehe ;-)01:14
wpwrakwhat's interesting is that i also found a few bugs in the patches. e.g., the altars of madness now twist and turn. they look a lot madder now ;-)01:15
rejoncool01:16
rejongreat if this accelerates compiling time01:16
rejonesp. when you have to compile in front of people who invented compilers01:16
wpwrak;-))01:17
rejonHi gordon bell in the audience01:17
rejonAlan Kay was sick that day01:17
wpwrakbut i think your problem as just the large number of images01:17
wpwraks/as/was/01:17
wpwrakregarding compile time, there isn't a lot left to squeeze out. maybe another 10%, but then we're at the limit.01:18
rejonBut, everytime you click "Go" the m1 compiles the patches01:18
wpwrakyes01:19
rejonwonder if there can be a check if there is a need to even compile again01:19
wpwrakwe could try caching, yes01:19
wpwrakanother issue is that it's too easy to fall out of performance mode. if you have a mouse connected, this is pretty much guaranteed to happen the sooner or the later01:20
rejonyes01:20
rejonthis is what happened to me01:20
rejonreally embarrasing01:20
rejonsoooo, I went into presentation mode where I had it left off, running the animated logo, and instead, milkymist admin interface01:21
wpwrakthat's what you get for abusing your M1 for something as mundane as slide shows ;-)01:21
rejonwpwrak, i animated all the slides01:21
rejoni mean added effects01:21
wpwrakwow01:21
rejonjust subtle01:21
wpwrakyou owe us a video :)01:22
rejonI agree, I set it up first to do the mundane, but A.) it looked like dogshit at that resolution B.) felt like an atrocity01:22
rejonwpwrak, yah, that event was on lockdown01:22
rejoni'll try to get one out here now01:22
rejoni can do an update01:22
rejonThe most helpful will be one big ass button that just advances to the next patch in perf. mode01:23
rejonanyway, with the ability to set a button to just advance slides01:23
rejonthen, I will feel comfortable using my m1 now all the time for presentations01:23
rejongreat to get image resolution up too01:23
rejonbut, its great to be able to show images, and then have live patches in between rather than screenshots01:24
wpwrakhow about the prev/next buttons ? don't they work in performance mode ?01:24
wpwrak(resolution) i wouldn't get up my hopes too high regarding that. once the color depth is increased, we're pretty much at the end of that memory bandwidth01:24
rejonwpwrak, one button maps to one patch01:25
rejonneed ir and/or keyboard buttons to map to actions too01:25
wpwrakalso the buttons on the M1 case ?01:25
rejonnot sure01:26
rejondidn't try01:26
rejononly the IR remote01:26
rejonon this use01:26
rejonideal too01:26
rejonbrb01:26
wpwrakaah, i see. that may not work perfectly01:26
wpwrak(haven't tried IR yet)01:27
rjeffriescool whitequark you rock01:58
rjeffrieswhitequark01:59
whitequarkI'm curious if RoHS solder reacts differently to temperature swings08:10
whitequarke.g. do BGA balls crack?08:10
whitequarkand by "temperature swings" I mean the ones at transportation11:59
whitequarki.e. +50..-2011:59
whitequark... simultaneously at the different sides of the box.12:02
whitequarkyou never know those paths in hell Russian Post goes through.12:02
whitequarkon the serious side, I'm still interested. I think it's more 0..+30, somewhat like that12:03
whitequarkand the board arrived with one or more of its balls broken12:03
whitequarkat least, when you press on the chip, TFT synchro begins to work correctly12:03
whitequark*on the CPU12:03
whitequarkon the other hand, the board was laid out by some random student12:11
whitequarkand assembled by a greedy idiot who (not a joke) omits a different combination of bypass caps at each next batch12:11
wolfspraulmaybe that guy was greedy, or you were stingy in not paying adequately :-)12:12
whitequarkthat's not my board12:12
wolfspraulwhoever paid12:12
whitequarkbut I've been asked to investigate why it does not work correctly12:12
whitequarkyes12:12
wolfspraulI've seen the latter all too often12:12
wolfspraulsomeone first wanting to pay some ridiculous money, like for an icecream in a park, and then whining around about lousy quality12:13
whitequarkthey are a "developer kit", not custom ones12:13
whitequarkthey're cheap, through, it's true12:13
wolfspraulalways makes me wonder, but I just smile nowadays and move on12:13
wolfspraulyou get what you pay for, right? :-)12:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: how's germany ? still everything where you left it ?12:14
wolfspraulyes pretty much12:14
wpwrakgood ;)12:18
whitequarkwolfspraul: I wonder where you can get a $150 icecream. I get your idea, through :)12:19
lars_whitequark: there are probably even places where you can even get a 1k$ icecream ;)12:54
wpwraklars_: got some preferred ice cream parlor in the emirates ?12:56
lars_wpwrak: i'm trying to cut down these days ;)13:00
DocScrutinizerwolfspra1l: hey, you're in Germany?13:54
blogicDocScrutinizer: his ip would suggest so13:55
DocScrutinizerI stpped looking at IPs, usually you get fooled by them13:55
blogict-dialin is deutsche telekom13:56
DocScrutinizeryep13:56
wolfspra1lyes, IP spies13:58
kristianpaulwow you can still get C1xx phones, amazing 14:00
whitequarkkristianpaul: that ones with hacked bp?14:04
DocScrutinizerRegion Schmelz, next Luxembourg14:04
whitequarkkristianpaul: which iirc you can use to take down any gsm cell in a moment14:05
Action: kristianpaul dont know nothing about GSM standards14:05
DocScrutinizerwolfspra1l: obviously quite a bit away from my location14:06
DocScrutinizerif the IP location services are right14:06
kristianpaulwhitequark: i just get the info from this mail, very inspiring tought :) http://lists.osmocom.org/pipermail/baseband-devel/2011-December/002507.html14:09
wolfspra1lI read it too14:11
wpwrakvery good indeed14:16
DocScrutinizerwow14:17
DocScrutinizerharald for president ;-D14:17
kristianpaul:)14:18
DocScrutinizerI always wonder how this guy manages to earn his momey, jet around all the world, and still find time to do all those amazing things14:18
DocScrutinizermoney*14:18
wolfspra1lwpwrak: what do you find good?14:34
wolfspra1lI don't know how to help14:34
wpwraki find it good that a) they're at the point of being able consider making an actually usable device, and b) that they're not afraid to attack that problem14:36
wpwrak(help) yeah, hard. they still don't have the hw side under their control. mini-USRP anyone ? :)14:37
wolfspra1lthe way I read it more is some desperation to avoid slide-into-irrelevance for the baseband software being worked on14:38
wolfspra1lI believe in product focus, so I did the NanoNote and now MIlkymist One14:38
wolfspra1lbut... they both don't have RF because we don't have the power to really pull it off into a product14:38
wpwraki wouldn't call it desperation. it's more closure he seems to seek14:39
wolfspra1lI think the window of opportunity for truly open GSM/3G/LTE stacks has passed, in terms of productization.14:39
wolfspra1lthat will remain an academic/security researcher niche.14:40
wolfspra1land Harald is not accouncing that he got a 10 million USD seed investment from a big venture fund :-) he is just trying to find a way to move some of their sources into products before those products (hardware) totally vanish from the marketplace.14:40
wpwrakwhich seems fine, considering the focus of the project14:41
wpwrakbesides, in some areas, GSM may stay around for a while14:41
wpwrak3G is a question of when the patents will start to expire. but it's also more demanding technology. so it's good to do GSM first.14:42
DocScrutinizerwolfspra1l: (niche) indeed14:56
DocScrutinizer[2011-12-11 15:47:02] <DocScrutinizer> yeah, we'll celebrate start of mass production of first completely FOSS GSM phone, on the event where last carrier on this planet declares they will switch their last GSM band to LTE now14:56
DocScrutinizer[2011-12-11 15:47:34] <DocScrutinizer> X-P14:56
DocScrutinizer[2011-12-11 15:49:28] <DocScrutinizer> and I will utter a sigh of relief, as one of my nightmares is script kiddies and "young talented android developers" are messing with GSM TX and protocol, to implement bullshit that tears down whole cells14:56
wolfspra1lwell14:58
wolfspra1lI am super optimistic about free radio in the future14:58
wolfspra1land osmocom baseband may play an important role in that14:58
wolfspra1lI just don't thikn the 'catch up to 2g/3g/lte' path works14:58
wolfspra1lI feel a bit ironic in Harald's mail that he first says "Free Software is not just "the hobby project catching up" with14:59
wolfspra1lthe vendors of proprietary software."14:59
wolfspra1land a bare 2 sentences later he goes on with "we have still not managed to even implement the14:59
DocScrutinizermeh, tomorrow I'm going to iron out smaller glitches in LTE firmware again. This train is gone14:59
wolfspra1lmost basic GSM feature phone that existed 15 years ago using proprietary14:59
wolfspra1lsoftware.  We need to work on closing that gap.  We ..."15:00
wolfspra1lhuh?15:00
wolfspra1lso it's not about 'catching up', but we need to "close the gap"15:00
wolfspra1l:-)15:00
wolfspra1lso I hope we first get DSP better under control, and I will support kristianpaul's GPS project until that damned thing works :-)15:00
wolfspra1lfor Harald's approach, the Cxxx path sounds best15:03
DocScrutinizertbh I don't see the purpose to get the GSM stack under FOSS control15:03
wolfspra1lso they can continue to bringup the stack15:03
wolfspra1lyeah well15:03
DocScrutinizeras I fail to see reasonable effort to implement FOSS firmware for HDD15:03
wolfspra1lyes there are many blobs15:03
wolfspra1lthat's why I think this discussion has a perspective as if we were in the late 90's15:04
wolfspra1lthe train has left the station15:04
DocScrutinizerlong time ago15:04
wolfspra1lthere is a lot of integration between baseband and application cores happening, and will continue to happen15:04
wolfspra1lso in the embedded space it will be hard for FOSS to make any impressive showing15:04
wolfspra1lbut it's too late now to break into that, unless someone is willing to bet > 1 billion USD or so on the superiority of a free stack15:05
DocScrutinizeryou now got a cpu in each sheet of toilet paper, and I don't give a sh* *cough* about the firmware running on it. For me that'S all blackboxes and who cares if it'S hardwired or firmware driven?15:05
wolfspra1lwell, from a foss perspective it becomes nearly impossible to make interesting embedded products15:05
wolfspra1lunless you license proprietary blobs15:05
wolfspra1lthe Ubuntu guys are still struggling to find the CD drive on all of this embedded stuff so they can run their installer :-)15:06
DocScrutinizerLOL15:08
wolfspra1lno?15:10
wolfspra1lthe other day I read a post from a Mozilla engineer (Firefox) that really made me think15:10
wolfspra1lit was about their inability to optimize the browser for power consumption15:10
wolfspra1lin 201115:10
wolfspra1land one of their problems, they realized, was that they didn't know how to measure (!) power consumption on a running phone15:11
wolfspra1lso they asked for help!15:11
wolfspra1lfor the record, this is 201115:11
wolfspra1lif this would have been late 90's, ok, fine.15:11
wolfspra1lbut if in the entire Mozilla engineering org they realize only in 2011 that they don't know how to measure power consumption, oh my15:11
wolfspra1lthere's something more deeply wrong there15:11
wolfspra1lDocScrutinizer: I think there are some research projects, even gpl, about 3g or lte stacks15:15
DocScrutinizergreat, but what's the benefit in the end?15:16
wolfspra1ldon't know :-)15:16
DocScrutinizernowadays modem chips won't take unsigned firmware images to flash anyway15:16
wolfspra1loh sure the entire ecosystem has completely moved away from open anything, imho15:17
wolfspra1lopen is only the stuff that nobody knows how to make money with anymore15:17
DocScrutinizerand I'm all day more interested in a proper open comprehensive API than in a FOSS firmware for a chip I got no access anyway15:17
wolfspra1lif you try to make or use practical products today, that makes sense yes15:18
DocScrutinizerin this respect the Nokia way to specify a industry standard for modem interface is way more promising than any FOSS firmware for the modem15:18
wolfspra1lbut I don't feel comfortable investing in chips that are not standardized enough, i.e. available from multiple independent companies, and for 5+ years at least15:19
wolfspra1lthat pretty much rules out a lot of the chips you would need to be using15:19
wolfspra1lDocScrutinizer: which standard?15:19
DocScrutinizererr, mompl, need to find the link15:20
DocScrutinizerwireless modem API15:20
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.wirelessmodemapi.com/15:21
wolfspra1lI agree that that can provide the same benefits in terms of openess as digging it all out and 'freeing' things inside.15:21
wolfspra1l(in theory, reading the link now - THANKS!)15:21
DocScrutinizerthough it seems the server is down ATM15:21
wolfspra1lso you can make a standard, and hopefully multiple chip vendors make chips following that standard15:22
wolfspra1lnot sure what would motivate them though, since so much value nowadays is in 'uniqueness'15:22
wolfspra1lbut if the standard is successful in that regard, whatever the motivation, it creates the same end results as a totally open solution imho15:22
DocScrutinizeror you make a FOSS BB firmware that work for exactly one chip15:23
wolfspra1lthere would be no point in that unless at least some part of it could be carried forward to other chips later15:23
wolfspra1l(which is always the intention with osmocom as far as I can tell)15:23
DocScrutinizerexactly my point15:23
wolfspra1lso what is practically happening in gsm/3g/lte baseband chips now?15:24
wolfspra1lI think still more integration15:24
DocScrutinizerI can't see much of that happen, such a baseband chip with DSP and all the shit is WAY too complex to port large parts of the while stack15:24
wolfspra1lthe AP cores are being merged into the baseband cores15:24
DocScrutinizeresp lower layers15:24
wolfspra1ltrue?15:24
wolfspra1lyou tell me15:24
wolfspra1lyou are the 'industry guy', i'm just the foss hippie nowadays :-)15:24
DocScrutinizerI'm an industry newbe15:25
DocScrutinizer:-D15:25
wolfspra1lthere was a time when a smartphone necessarily had a separate baseband and AP CPU, but I think now it's moving back to 1 chip15:25
wolfspra1lall cores, dsp, all on one die15:25
DocScrutinizerand even though I got access to *all* the LTE source now, we only deal with interfaces of base system, I.E. talking to the outside world of AP land15:26
DocScrutinizerno real clue about signalling15:26
wolfspra1land of course everything closed, in fact the companies with the best trajectory now seem to the the ones that are boastful of their high degree of closedness :-)15:26
DocScrutinizeryou ever heard of OSE?15:27
DocScrutinizerENEA OSE15:27
wolfspra1lno15:27
DocScrutinizergoogle for it ;-D15:27
wolfspra1lsince you work for ST-E I start to pay more attention to ste news15:27
DocScrutinizeryou'll wonder WTF you never heard of it15:27
wolfspra1l85% engineers!15:27
wolfspra1lbiggest customer is Nokia, CEO just ousted15:28
wolfspra1lvery European thing it seems15:28
DocScrutinizeryep15:28
DocScrutinizerENEA founded in the early 60s, OSE used on 90+% of BTS and most modems 15:29
DocScrutinizerOSE is kinda unixoid15:29
DocScrutinizerbut you can't get a single decent manual or whitepaper about the stuff. HELL I hadn't even heard about it 2 weeks ago15:30
DocScrutinizerso much for closed stuff in industry15:31
wolfspra1lyes15:31
wolfspra1lbut that's why I said I think it's hard to grow a free part in an ecosystem of closed parts15:31
DocScrutinizerindeed15:32
wolfspra1lif someone establishes a strong open standard for a chip (like the modemapi you pointed out), that may create an environment where free parts can grow15:33
wolfspra1lbut I want to see that standard really adopted from several companies, and supported for x years15:33
DocScrutinizersure15:34
DocScrutinizerthat's the idea behind ISI / openmodemapi15:34
wolfspra1lthat server seems down, will check later15:34
wolfspra1lgreat link - thanks a lot!15:34
DocScrutinizerindeed it seems down and you'll also need to register15:35
DocScrutinizerofono is based on ISI15:38
DocScrutinizerFSO as well ;-D15:38
DocScrutinizerfor N90015:38
wolfspra1lsorry what is ISI now?15:38
wolfspra1lopenmodemapi = wirelessmodemapi ?15:38
DocScrutinizererr yes, sorry15:40
DocScrutinizerWireless Modem API G2 V2 11w05.zip   is the latest version I got here15:48
DocScrutinizermaybe you can find it elsewhere15:48
DocScrutinizerAIUI the protocol is called ISI15:49
DocScrutinizerand ofono builds on that to provide high level API, similar to FSO15:50
DocScrutinizerbasically they set up a bus similar to IP and you talk to clients in the modem which listen on certain "ports"15:51
DocScrutinizeron AP there's a libisi.ko which probably is similar to a TCP/IP stack15:52
DocScrutinizers/.ko/.so/15:52
DocScrutinizerthe interface is a "NIC"15:52
DocScrutinizerphonet0   Link encap:UNSPEC  HWaddr 15-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-0015:53
DocScrutinizer          UP POINTOPOINT RUNNING NOARP  MTU:4000  Metric:115:53
DocScrutinizer          RX packets:77 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:015:53
DocScrutinizer          TX packets:75 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:015:53
DocScrutinizeron "the other end" you got different endpoints, each implementing a service15:55
DocScrutinizerthere are even cdc_phonet kernel drivers in standard desktop linux15:55
DocScrutinizerquite usual procedure is to forward the interface to PC via USB-networking15:56
wpwrakfunny. you both realize the extreme closedness of that technology (and that's nothing new), yet you don't see the motivation for open projects to try to get in there15:57
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: "implement bullshit that tears down whole cells". indeed, it'd also be worried that all this closed-source junk collapses when something even marginally unexpected happens :)15:58
DocScrutinizer(btw phonet is the "predecessor" of ofono)15:58
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: indeed, but then you know they'll hand out a new phone to just everybody in no time15:59
DocScrutinizerwhile when your 13 year old neighbour tries "free phonecalls to his girlfriend next house" all you'll see will be a lot of swearing people out on the streets and 2 days later a "funkpeilwagen" driving by16:00
DocScrutinizerwhich won't cure the problem16:00
wpwrakyou sound like the Deutsche Post in the days when modems first appeared. remember when it was illegal to connector your own modem to the oh so fragile telephone network ? ;-)16:03
wpwrakand i'm sure i must have heard the same argument when it came to TCP/IP and linux ;-)16:03
DocScrutinizerwolfspra1l: it's up'ed16:03
DocScrutinizerthere's a small but significant difference though: RF16:04
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: you can just jam the whole spectre part18:47
whitequarkdoes that differ a lot from the "fiddle with GSM" situation?18:47
jason__yo wolfspra1l19:38
jason__hey guys19:40
jason__Im thinking about renting a hong kong fair electronics booth19:40
wolfspra1lps2chiper: cool, never been there20:10
wolfspra1lwho are the people visiting the fair?20:10
ps2chiperWell I only have two products20:10
ps2chiperthe hong kong electronics fair paired with the canton fair, make it the largest trade fair in the world20:10
ps2chiperI was wondering if you guys want to share a booth20:11
wolfspra1lI know nothing about the fair. Who is going there?20:11
ps2chiperin generial, people that are sourcing new products new ideas or technical services20:12
ps2chiperwolfspa1l did you fall asleep?20:21
wolfspra1lps2chiper: no20:27
ps2chiperHave you ever been to a trade fair before?20:28
wolfspra1lyes20:33
ps2chiperDid you show off qi-hardware?20:34
wolfspra1lno20:35
ps2chiperhere is your chance to do it in april20:35
wolfspra1lquite unlikely that I can motivate myself for this. Are you asking me whether I plan to attend? or are you asking me whether I would share some costs with you?20:38
ps2chiperI would like you to share some cost with me, please give it some consideration.20:38
kristianpaulgeek fair? :)20:38
wolfspra1lI will most definitely not pay money. Will I pay with my time? probably also not unless I really understand why that would be an exciting thing to do that day :-)20:38
wolfspra1lps2chiper: definitely not pay, no20:39
wolfspra1lI wouldn't even pay the entrance tickets nowadays. just hold an unconference with the ticket refusal rebels outside, and spend the money on some good wine instead :-)20:39
ps2chiperI asked you to give it some consideration. I think you are underestimating the hong kong fair. So its your loss, I just wanted to share a booth so there would bemore products to display. But I can see your being short sighted. 20:40
wolfspra1lbut I should read more about the fair, so that's a good reminder. I'm sure it's big...20:40
wolfspra1lI prefer small quality events with people I know or want to get to know better. plus I rather do something than talk or present. feels so much more productive.20:41
wolfspra1lwhich products do you plan to show? and what are your expectations into attending?20:42
ps2chiperMaybe this would give a chance to show your products to people that don't already know them. Broaden your customer base. 20:43
ps2chiperIm going to show my routers20:43
wolfspra1lhave you had success with this show before?20:43
kristianpauloh floss like routers? !!20:43
ps2chiperI went to the canton fair which was a mistake20:44
kristianpaulps2chiper: have a link about this rotuers?20:44
ps2chiperthe hong kong fair is the place to be for routers20:44
wolfspra1lcanton was a mistake, but when I think critically about what I get in HK you immediately call me "short sighted" :-)20:44
wolfspra1lmaybe you need a few more mistakes before you reconsider the vision thing :-)20:44
ps2chiperyes, because you blew it off without even investigating it20:44
wolfspra1lnah20:44
wolfspra1lI will read more about it20:45
wolfspra1lfirst I dont' respond fast enough (because I'm thinking), then I do respond then it's "without investigation". argh :-)20:45
wolfspra1lit's great that you mention it and offer to share a booth!20:45
wolfspra1lthat's an honor for us, really. yes, we should team up!20:45
ps2chiperAt least I tried and failed, I learned from my previous mistake and have valuable experience from it. 20:45
wolfspra1lwhen you say canton you mean in guangzhou?20:46
ps2chiperyes20:46
wolfspra1lwhat was the problem there?20:46
ps2chiperthat all the people that were buying routers didnt participate in the canton fair. they just left the hong kong fair directly20:47
ps2chiperI did some research from other router companies and found out they stop participating in the canton fair from a few years ago, now everyone just participates in the hong kong fair exclusively. While other companies such as satellite receivers participate in both fairs. 20:48
wolfspra1lwhat I don't understand is why buyers don't go to the SEG market in Shenzhen and treat that as a year-long fair?20:49
ps2chiperbecause they want oem work20:49
wolfspra1lmaybe the buyers like to meet with each other to share experiences and leads?20:49
ps2chiperI went to the canton fair because the factory I work for makes satellite receivers. But I see the router business as the future.20:49
wolfspra1lsure but many of the booths at SEG market are in fact with companies behind them who can do OEM20:50
ps2chipernot for routers20:50
ps2chiperrouters are harder to make because the testing machine cost 50k usd20:50
ps2chiperand 1 machine can only test 10k pcs a month20:50
ps2chiperso the investment cost is too great for little electronic factories to undertake20:51
wolfspra1lwhy are no router companies/booths in SEG?20:51
ps2chiperI just explained the investment is too great20:51
wolfspra1lok20:51
ps2chiperYou need something called an iqflex20:52
ps2chiperfrom the company iqview20:52
wolfspra1lso at HK you have all the larger OEM/ODM in one place20:52
ps2chipercorrect20:52
ps2chiperand this fair is for electronics exclusively 20:52
ps2chiperIt would be good for you guys, because you can introduce your copyleft products to people that never imagined such things existed. also I am focusing on openwrt routers, so it might be mutually beneficial. but the cost of a 15 meter square booth is 8k usd.20:54
kristianpaul0_o20:54
ps2chiperI could buy a smaller 9 quare meter booth at 4.5k, but I still only have two products20:54
wolfspra1lwell like I said the chances that I will do that are close to nil. I want to tell you that first so you don't complain later you spent so much time trying to sell the idea to me :-)20:55
wolfspra1lif someone pays me 10k though I may consider attending :-)20:55
kristianpaulps2chiper: do you think there are other foss like products in that fair ?20:55
ps2chiperno20:55
ps2chiperWhy would I pay you to go to the fair. Its nice enough that I am offering to help you. 20:55
wolfspra1lI think when you understand that the chances that I will share the costs with you are almost zero you will stop promoting the idea :-)20:56
ps2chiperno, i will just offer it to your other members20:57
wolfspra1lI think I know roughly why, for very good reasons, people attend the fair. and then I don't see how trying to have a Ben NanoNote or Milkymist One somewhere in a little booth will do any good.20:59
wolfspra1lI am much better off spending that time improving my web presence, or at a much smaller event where Milkymist One can really shine.21:00
ps2chiperWhat do you think they want to see? i thought you had a lot of inventions on qi-hardware besided the ben and milky21:00
wolfspra1lI think people that go there want to effectively source new Chinese vendors, or keep/improve relationships with existing vendors.21:01
wolfspra1lbecause if you don't have a fair like that, all you can do is travel in China, which is a big country and instead of 5 minutes from one booth to another, you have to spend 1 day by car/train/airplane from one vendor to another.21:02
ps2chiperwell its not just chinese vendors, its open to any company to participate. 21:02
ps2chiperand you would be selling your own oem services, not the actual product21:03
wolfspra1ldon't know. what is 'oem service'?21:05
wpwrakcheap china crap on demand :)21:05
wolfspra1lthe fair will be packed by people and companies that say they can manufacture 'everything'.21:05
ps2chiperyour design services, the nanonote is your proof21:05
kristianpaulwpwrak: forgot the fancy brand 21:05
wpwrakwolfspra1l: you'll have a big advantage: you're taller than the rest ;-))21:06
wolfspra1lwell I don't know the event, never been there21:06
wolfspra1lmaybe we wait for ps2chiper's feedback from the event first :-)21:06
ps2chiperwhy dont you just watch videos on it21:07
wpwraksounds like a good plan. if you're not prepared to fully commit a lot of resources, including time, it's a waste anyway, even if the fair would be perfect (which i also doubt)21:08
wolfspra1lI want to go to smaller electronic music and video art festivals :-)21:09
wpwrakps2chiper: also, random OEM deals isn't what we're looking for. we already have our own strategy21:09
ps2chiperwhat is your strategy?21:09
wpwrakbuild increasingly open hardware, and stay afloat with the products that result from this incremental process21:10
wolfspra1land find investors for that path :-)21:11
wolfspra1lps2chiper: wanna invest? :-)21:11
wpwrakwhat we have now is not yet the level of openness we'd ultimately want21:11
wpwrakstaying afloat includes many options :)21:11
wolfspra1lthe HK fair may well be interesting, I just don't know enough21:11
ps2chiperI would only invest in copy left routers21:11
wolfspra1lI would probably attend as a visitor first21:11
wolfspra1land like I said - I *really* prefer doing something over talk and presentations. some of those 'fairs' feel wrong to me.21:12
ps2chiperI don't understand why you cant build copy left products that are sold as retail to compete with name brands.21:12
lars_cause it's boring21:13
kristianpaulcompete with name brands is not vert copyleft anyway :)21:14
ps2chiperhow is it not copy left if you give away all your sources to the public?21:14
ps2chiperthat is my goal21:14
kristianpauloh sure thats it21:14
kristianpaulbut brandy products are not usually whar you can expect from copyleft products21:15
kristianpauli mean in features21:15
kristianpaulis even diffcult in our own enviorment like most people asking for Wifi, now in afair... image that :)21:16
ps2chiperI dont understand what product you are using an example. but in routers the manufactures omit many features that do not cost more money in manufacturing to raise the value of the product.21:16
ps2chiperMy goal is to manufacture the routers with all the features that were omitted and sell them for the same price as standard routers. 21:18
kristianpaulhad you already achieved that?21:19
ps2chiperpartially, I just modified an already existing router. I need to get some customers lined up before I dump all my money into it21:20
kristianpaulah, thats what the fair is for :)21:20
ps2chiperright21:21
ps2chiperbut I only have 2 products right now.21:21
ps2chiperits going to look like an empty display case21:21
ps2chiperhey wolfspraul, is your wife bhuddist or dao?21:22
ps2chiperI went to a bhuddist temple yesterday, but I never got a chance to see a dao one21:22
kristianpaulnow i see this i can manufacture everything, wondering how stories end21:25
wolfspra1lwe manufacture a copyleft buddha21:25
Action: kuribas thinks that for the nanonote to sell, it will need a nice interface.21:27
kuribasI am working on one in my spare time, but I do not promise anything soon.21:28
wolfspra1lyou mean a replacement for gmenu2x ?21:28
kuribasNo, a nicer GUI, with a statusbar, and some usefull apps.21:29
kuribasa PIM for example.21:29
wolfspra1lyes but it would replace the launcher? your idea is that the Ben boots directly into it?21:30
kuribasyes21:30
wolfspra1lok nice, that's always great to work on21:30
kuribasI am thinking a system based on the KDrive X server and the enlightenment foundation libraries.21:31
wolfspra1lwell, reading that I just lowered my expectations a bit21:31
wolfspra1l(in order to make you surpass my expectations when you have something :-))21:31
kuribaswolfspra1l: Well, do you know an alternative, that is stable enough?21:32
wolfspra1lI haven't looked into it in enough depth, which I'm sure you did by now. so no, I don't know.21:32
wolfspra1lbut kdrive & efl sounds like a lot of trouble, and I think you chose them based on some theory/plan you have in your mind, rather than specific coding actions or experiences on the Ben.21:33
kuribasThe nokia maemo platform uses this setup.21:34
wolfspra1lhave you started coding for or on the Ben already?21:35
kuribasno...21:36
wolfspra1lyeah, so like i said. right now you are motivated by having the perfect plan in your mind.21:36
kuribasI want to have a working WM on my desktop first.21:36
wolfspra1lmost likely by the time your plan hits reality, you will just give up on the plan because it cannot be as perfect as you thought it would be :-)21:36
kuribaswolfspra1l: I choose this plan because it gives me the least of work :)21:37
wolfspra1lsometimes you are motivated by a great idea, sometimes you are motivated by seeing something right in front of you. those things are very different.21:37
wolfspra1lwell, let's see! :-)21:37
wolfspra1lthen fire up your editor, and there you go...21:37
wolfspra1lthe plan is already perfect, right?21:37
wolfspra1lkdrive+efl!21:37
kuribasWell, I am reading all the documentation.  The EFL documentation, which is quite a lot, and basic X windows programming.21:40
kuribasI might just start modifying an existing WM for my needs, but I'd like to have a good understanding first.21:41
kuribasLike I said, it's isn't going to happen very soon.21:41
wolfspra1lwhy do you do this?21:42
kuribasBecause it's what I'd like to have for myself :-)21:43
kuribasA little linux box, with a PIM, some games, a calculator (gnu octave).21:43
wolfspra1lyou mean on the Ben?21:44
wolfspra1lif so - why do you think you need kdrive & efl for that?21:44
kuribasBecause I don't like the alternatives, like directFB.21:45
kuribasBesides, I don't think X is so bad.  It's gnome and the likes that are bloated.21:47
kuribasThe EFL was written with mobile devices in mind.21:50
kuribasAnd other apps, like gnuplot or rxvt will work without any change.21:51
wolfspra1lkuribas: yes, all fine. but please note that I think you are currently motivated by finding the perfect plan.21:54
wolfspra1l"don't think X is so bad", "bloated", "EFL written with mobile devices in mind", etc.21:54
kuribaswolfspra1l: I don't think it is perfect, but it is the best I can come up with.21:55
wolfspra1lI pretty much agree with all that, but I think when you try to translate this perfect plan into reality, that's when you will face the tough next decisions you need to make.21:55
kuribaslike?21:55
wolfspra1lhow much sweat you are willing to sacrifice to make your perfect plan come alive :-)21:55
kristianpaulpic pic !21:55
wolfspra1land you already warn us to not expect anything "very soon" (which I doubt anybody here does, no worries)21:56
wolfspra1lso let's say "not for about a year or so" :-)21:56
kuribasI think that is realistic ...21:56
kuribasBut not because the work is so much, more because I have to do it in my free time...22:00
kuribasUnless someone wants to cooperate?22:01
kuribasI don't think it is inherently more difficult than writing device drivers for example.22:07
kristianpauldamn where is new data.. (0x03)23:22
kristianpauloe was 223:24
Action: kristianpaul checks namuru datasheet23:24
--- Mon Dec 12 201100:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!