#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2011-12-09

wolfspraulback :-)01:04
wolfspraulwpwrak: you screenshot motivated me to look for an xmas gift for myself in the form of a large-screen high-res new notebook :-)01:04
wolfspraulxiangfu: good morning01:09
xiangfugood morning01:12
wolfspraulcool Adam is also there - good morning aw_ :-)01:13
wolfspraulinteresting, is this true? http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Microsoft-bans-free-software-from-Windows-Phone-Marketplace-1191524.html01:17
wolfspraulI don't follow legacy tech that much anymore, but if Microsoft also systematically bans copyleft that may be something we can use to make people interested in Qi01:19
wolfspraulhttp://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Windows-Store-agreement-has-open-source-exception-1391749.html01:20
kristianpaulstore??!!01:20
aw_good morning !01:20
wolfspraulmaybe only for mobile now, don't know01:20
wolfspraulwell if they don't like quality software, we will receive it with open arms01:20
kristianpaulfloss on windows is popular, people installing vlc, openffice 7z..01:21
kristianpaulif they cut off, yeah good for us01:22
pabs3this is nothing new though, there was something about the Apple store being incompatible with the GPL before that01:23
pabs3btw, are Qi folks in touch with the opencores/openrisc folks?01:23
wolfspraulpabs3: unfortunately too little [opencores]01:24
wolfspraulif you can help bridge the gap, please do so01:24
wolfspraulnaturally I believe Milkymist One is an exciting SoC development platform and there should be more stuff from opencores that we at least play with, learn more about, etc.01:25
pabs3I'm not involved in either project01:25
wolfspraulbut it also depends on people doing so, right now Milkymist SoC is really only 1 active HDL developer, that's Sebastien01:25
wolfspraulah ok. but at least you are lurking, good :-)01:25
wolfspraulI think we need to try out more, move it from the realm of talk to the realm of usage.01:27
wolfspraulI mean that in terms of opencores & milkymist (One)01:28
wolfspraulSebastien I'm sure has been doing this all along, but not many others yet...01:28
pabs3its interesting that OpenRISC support was merged into Linux 3.101:28
pabs3also they are looking at turning out an ASIC: http://opencores.org/donation01:29
wolfspraulthe ASIC direction is good technically, sooner or later we will definitely 'tape out' freely licensed chips in the same way that we 'gerber out' freely licensed pcbs01:32
wolfspraulbut to get there we need to open up and understand the process, and zoom in on a particular product where the asic/structured asic/whatever process makes sense economically01:33
wolfsprauluse case first, then tech01:33
wolfspraulotherwise the only guidance you have is to 'catch up' with whatever asic that is currently on the market, and that is a completely hopeless proposition01:33
wolfspraulwe've seen the same kind of path in the ogd1 (opengraphicsproject)01:34
wolfspraulhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Graphics_Project01:34
wolfspraulevery time I use my m1 and admire the visuals and play with music and effects, I know we are on the right path :-)01:35
wolfspraullet's see where the OGD1 is now... one sec01:35
wolfspraulshould check this once a year :-)01:35
wolfspraul"Full specifications will be published and open source device drivers will be released. All RTL will be released. Source code to the device drivers and BIOS will be released under the MIT and BSD licenses. The RTL (in Verilog) used for the FPGA and the RTL used for the ASIC are planned to be released under the GNU General Public License (GPL)."01:36
wolfspraulis that true?01:36
wolfspraulthat sounds like from an English class about 'future tense'01:36
wolfspraulok still nothing I think http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.graphics.opengraphics/932401:38
wolfspraulwill check again in 1 year01:38
wolfspraulnow the opencores donation, where is that?01:38
wolfspraul20k ?01:38
wolfspraulman my guess is good :-) 20,800 USD01:38
wolfspraulpabs3: milkymist one (and milkymist soc) is years ahead this stuff01:39
wolfspraulwe should definitely try to collaborate and exchange as much as possible with opencores, but Sebastien and others are aware of opencores since forever so I'm sure this is already happening to the extent that we find useful stuff and knowledge01:40
wolfspraulI am subscribed to the opencores newsletter :-)01:40
wolfspraulif you are interested in asic, I recommend reading this post http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/chip-design-open-source-and-diy-part-3-batch-fabrication-of-chips01:42
wolfspraulpart 1 and 2 are also good01:43
wolfsprauland then I recommend buying a Milkymist One, of course :-) and making the jump into the cold water and start IC design hacking...01:43
wolfspraulwhen you are frustrated, listen to some great music and visuals thanks to M1 itself :-)01:44
wolfspraulbtw, related in a way. semiconductor industry has about 300 billion USD worldwide revenues this year01:45
wolfspraulI need to learn more about the revenue and margin trends inside that 300 billion USD bucket, which types of chips are responsible for what share of the total01:46
wolfspraulthat will be important for us to decide how to design products and where to do something ourselves and where to buy from outside01:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: (big screen) hehe ;-) (an) external screen(s) can also help. a smaller screen on the laptop itself makes it travel more easily and break less03:19
wolfspraul:-)03:19
wolfspraulI shall find out03:19
wolfspraul1920x1080, ratpoison03:19
wolfspraulactually I would like to build one myself using shenzhen parts, but too much trouble right now03:20
wolfspraulthat would be a good excuse to work on some nice case :-)03:20
wolfspraulgood point about breaking, my Asus has a metal behind the lcm and even though I took it around a lot, never felt uneasy about breaking the screen03:21
wolfsprauland it got squeeze all over in buses, subways, chairs, and so on03:21
wolfspraulwpwrak: about our earlier SoC discussion03:22
wolfspraulIngenic does not compete with TI, Freescale, Qualcomm03:22
wolfspraulnot today, not tomorrow03:22
wolfspraulthey compete with other low-cost Chinese SoC vendors, whose names you will never want to learn :-)03:22
wolfspraulthat keeps them trapped in terms of slowly acquiring more knowledge, no matter how much cash they have03:22
wolfspraulI think the idea of Chinese SoC makers will not go very far, I can already see the limits to that03:24
wpwrakwell, if the volume is right, they'd still have enough left for a top-notch sw team. sw scales nicely :)03:24
wpwrakof course, all this assuming they care03:24
wolfspraulI really talk to a lot of Chinese manufacturers, designers, here there.03:24
wolfspraulyes03:24
wolfspraulso everybody knows - don't buy Chinese connectors, for example03:24
wolfspraulit's just shit, really03:24
wpwrakoh :)03:24
wolfspraulso the Chinese companies that want to make quality products buy Taiwanese connectors, or Japanese!03:25
wolfspraulPCB, same03:25
wolfspraulpassive parts, same03:25
wolfspraulpower ics, same (lots of good stuff there from the US)03:25
wolfspraulthe political agenda put "CPU" on the table at some point, but just as prestige projects03:25
wolfspraulstate of IC design in China is horrible, similar to software03:26
wolfspraulso look at Ingenic's sources :-)03:26
wolfspraul(they stop publishing recently, nobody cares in all the junk anyway)03:26
wolfspraulin very friendly terms you could say "will never go upstream"03:26
wpwrakwell, at least the 4740 family seems to work :)03:26
wolfspraulyes, it's shared among many Chinese low-cost SoC makers03:26
wolfspraulthis stuff is all blindly copy/pasted03:26
wolfspraulzero talent at those companies03:27
wolfspraulthe government sets up pools, shared 'centers' etc.03:27
wolfspraulthen everybody runs03:27
wpwrakyou admire your masters and copy the best work from them :-)03:27
wolfspraulnah03:27
wolfspraulthat's a legend03:27
wolfspraulscratch the 'admire masters'03:27
wolfspraulthat would require that you know who a master is, and 'admiring' means you understand something03:28
wolfspraulfor example memory controllers03:28
wolfspraulone of the most critical parts in the Milkymist SoC, arguably03:28
wpwrakdon't you think they think they know who the masters are ? :)03:28
wolfspraulno03:28
wolfspraulso the state of memory controllers in CHina is catastrophic03:28
wolfsprauleven the famous Loongson has to license that part from abroad03:29
wolfspraulthat's the problem with political projects that they have to go for the 'big' thing first (CPU), but their talent is not enough to make it work down into the details03:29
wolfspraulso there are a lot of problems with that licensed memory controller, and the end result is that a comparable Intel chip can be put on a 6 or max. 8 layer PCB, but you need a 16-layer PCB for the Loongson :-)03:30
kristianpauldetails like proper video graphics !! (yes lemote :()03:30
kristianpauls/proper/better supported etc..03:30
wpwrak(16 layer) awww ...03:30
kristianpaul*g*03:30
wolfspraulwell it's the typical story03:31
wolfspraulhide the dirt under the rug03:31
wolfspraulunder the pcb layers in this case :-)03:31
kristianpaulbut this politica thing is up to 2020 if i remenber, longsoon 16 cores cpus :)03:31
wolfspraulfine03:32
wolfspraulall meaningless really03:32
wolfspraulI'm here to study, and I learn every day03:32
wpwrakkristianpaul: each core gets its own layer :)03:32
wolfspraulkristianpaul: did you buy a lemote?03:32
wolfspraulthe problem comes from lousy memory controller I was told03:32
wolfspraulIntel is excellent at memory controllers (just relaying)03:32
wolfspraulso with Ingenic, we have to see03:33
wolfspraulI am very open and excited about the relationship03:33
wolfsprauland as long as Liu Qiang wants to meet with me, I will do so once or twice a year03:33
kristianpaulwolfspraul: more o less yes, 2 years ago03:33
wolfspraulI learnt so much already, it's great for me03:33
wolfspraulbut right now I just don't think this will take off, we both don't understand and don't need each other03:33
wolfspraulhe has to run, throw whatever random SoC together, tape out, sell, squeeze out every penny, and then again03:34
wolfspraulif I see things correctly, the idea of indendently designed Chinese SoCs will go roughly where the idea of Linux/free software allowing Chinese to make 'Chinese software' went in the last 10 years03:35
wpwrakif the USD 2 CPU needs an USD 100 PCB, then we have of course a problem with the "low cost" approach03:35
wolfspraulthat is: nowhere03:35
wpwrakif, however, they manage to commoditize the hardware as such, i don't see too much of an issue with them not understanding software. as long as someone is around who does.03:36
wolfspraulyes but in embedded SoCs that's very hard03:36
wpwrakwhether ingenic have to be part of that someone's revenue stream or not, seems secondary03:36
wolfspraulthat's my point03:36
wolfspraulIngenic cannot survive on revenues coming from us03:37
wolfspraulthey would go out of business right away03:37
wolfspraulso whatever strategy they have, it must fit the market overall03:37
wolfsprauland I think it will be hard for independent Chinese SoC makers03:37
wpwraki was more thinking of ingenic benefiting from a well-maintained kernel / system03:37
wolfspraulbecause a good SoC is so product and software dependant03:38
wolfspraulyes but they only care about sales volume03:38
wolfsprauland fast03:38
kristianpaulwpwrak: http://www.hotchips.org/uploads/archive22/HC22.24.630-1-Hu-GS464V-godson.pdf03:38
wolfspraulso we don't need to talk with them, we just buy chips when we need them03:38
wolfspraulthey blew their chance to enter phones03:39
wolfspraulthat's too late now03:39
wpwrakwell, maybe you could approach them from the "why amazon/quanta didn't pick up your chip but went with expensive TI instead" angle03:39
wolfspraulQualcomm is totally unreachable03:39
wolfspraulMTK also03:40
wpwrakfor all we know, quanta may have even suggested ingenic to amazon, or may - unsuccessfully - do so in the future03:40
wolfspraulthe Chinese MTK clone Spreadtrum will embed their own ARM cores into their baseband chips03:40
wolfsprauloh no, no way03:40
wolfspraulthey probably get flooded with spam from unknown Chinese vendors trying to sell them whatever03:40
wolfspraulit will all be discarded03:40
wpwrakkristianpaul: nice HPC ranking ;-)03:41
wolfspraulthere's nothing behind03:41
wolfspraulso Ingenic's media player market is going away03:41
wolfspraulthey are trying to get into tablets, but except for extremely optimistic people like Ron nobody thinks that that crap can sell in any quantities03:41
wolfspraulyou can only sell so much of a broken product :-)03:41
wpwrak(amazon access) well, wouldn't a "western" company doing the base software make it look more friendly ?03:42
wolfspraulI suggested we should look at new categories like lamps, laser projectors, etc. but that is completely beyond their imagination.03:42
wolfspraulthey can just sell us some plastic, that's all03:42
wolfspraulthey barely understand what's inside the package ;-)03:42
wolfspraultrust me03:43
wolfspraulthat's the downside of the 'attractive' price03:43
wolfspraulit's no different from the rusting connector03:43
wolfspraulthat every Chinese manufacturer themselves knows you should never touch03:43
wolfspraulyes it may sound strange and unbelievable to compare a 50 cent connector to a 50 cent SoC, but that's how I see it03:44
wolfspraulthey are both designed and manufactured with roughly the same amount of brain input :-)03:44
wpwrakthe common item is longevity03:44
wpwrakhmm. connectors look fiendishly complex to me. for most of them, i wouldn't even begin to understand how to manufacture them.03:44
wolfspraulfair enough03:51
wolfspraulso no China :-)03:51
wolfspraulI just met this 1-person Chinese hardware maker who made the Icarus bitcoin mining board03:51
wolfspraul(all freely licensed and in github)03:52
wpwrakwow :)03:52
wolfsprauland it's the same story as always, when going through his board he proudly says "all connectors sourced from abroad"03:52
wolfspraul"look, US power ICs"03:52
wpwrak;-)03:52
wolfspraulwell they know, they manufacturer here all the time03:52
wpwrakso it's "designed in the US, manufactured in China" ?03:53
wolfspraulto me it looks right now as if the idea of a Chinese SoC is as flawed as the idea of Chinese data converters (adc/dac), Chinese connectors, Chinese passive parts, Chinese power ICs, ...03:53
wolfspraulor RedFlag Linux :-)03:54
wpwrak(soc) well, there's hope for some "learning by doing" ...03:54
wolfspraulnot in me :-)03:54
wolfspraulthat's happening in Milkymist SoC, yes03:55
wolfspraulbig time03:55
wpwrakmaybe you should approach the government. make great linux support for ingenic chips, and hire groups interns for, say, one year, to learn on the job :)03:55
wpwraks/groups/groups of/03:55
wolfspraulwon't work03:56
wolfspraulI am mentally moving past the idea of us finding a great Chinese SoC maker to work with03:56
wolfspraulI will keep trying to find a way to collaborate, but once you learned something by really doing it, there is little need to do that again and again.03:57
wolfspraulso in other words, I think the lack of understanding how this could work mutually will be stronger than any initial motivation to just do it regardless03:57
wpwrakwell, for mid-range devices, ingenic don't look so bad. one problem is their (non-)publication policy03:57
wolfspraulnah it's deeper03:57
wolfspraulthey think their problem is that Quanta hasn't picked up their phone call yet03:58
wolfsprauleven though they sent some samples! :-)03:58
wpwrakbut for the chip, they seem to be well-positioned. e.g., from the system software side, they're not more trouble to work with than, say, samsung. perhaps even less.03:58
wolfspraulyou mean for the Ben?03:58
wolfspraulyes sure, we did well and I hope we can continue with the Ben03:58
wolfspraulI am talking about future products03:58
wpwrakben and similar03:58
wolfsprauland I will continue to work with Ingenic, I am just describing the status quo as clearly as possible03:59
wpwrakdo you expect that 4740 successors will be inferior in terms of overall system integration cost ?03:59
wpwrak(i.e., the 16 layer pcb memory controller)04:00
wpwrak(or just not work or work unreliably)04:00
wpwrakin the ben, we had remarkably few problems. also, the documentation is adequate. not perfect, but when i compare this with some things samsung did, certainly in pretty good shape04:02
wolfspraulwait, you misunderstood me04:02
wolfspraulthe reference to 16-layer was about a high-end Loongson CPU04:02
wpwrakyes yes04:02
wpwrakbut you said that intel could have done the same with a lot less04:03
wolfspraulyes04:03
wolfspraulas an example of how strong Chinese companies actually are in IC design04:03
wolfspraulor how weak rather04:03
wpwrakso if ingenic do their own equivalent of the "16 layer memory controller", whichever subsystem or aspect of the chip that may be, e.g., could be power supply, then they would kill their own low-cost angle04:03
wolfspraulthere's a lot of random guessing, and then if something actually has to work well they have to license/buy foreign stuff04:04
wolfspraulno I think the Ingenic chips are fine04:04
wolfspraulbut that doesn't mean that Ingenic has the quality staff you would need for them to be in control of their own destiny04:04
wolfspraulon the IC design or software side04:04
wpwrakso you're implicitly predicting that a "16 layer memory controller" incident will happen04:05
wolfspraulthink of it this way: how far is the Milkymist SoC from replacing any Ingenic chip entirely?04:05
wolfspraulIngenic is licensing/copy-pasting a lot of IP blocks, yes04:05
wpwrakhmm, maybe 1-2 years04:05
wolfsprauland then they tape-out in the highest process they can get their hands on04:06
wolfsprauland then they dump the chip on the market fast and cheap because lots of other Chinese SoC makers have access to the same IP core pools04:06
wpwrakmaybe that's the cruz04:06
wolfspraulyou think they have time to think through the subtleties of something higher up in the Android stack working or not? :-)04:06
wpwrakcrux even04:06
wolfspraulof course you can imagine me :-) I like to do the "what device are you using yourself" game04:07
wolfspraulalways fun in China04:07
wolfsprauland I still love it :-)04:07
wolfsprauldon't believe the 'save face' nonsense, jsut go right for the demasking04:07
wpwrakmaybe the real problem is that any investment they make benefits their fiercest competitors just as much. so it depends on whether they believe in growing the pie instead of getting a bigger slice04:07
wolfspraulyes true, that would be one problem04:08
wolfspraulI think they are fine, that's my point04:08
wolfspraulnot much we can do04:08
wolfspraulimagine you are a maker of cheap Chinese connectors, something simple like the memcard connector on the Ben you like so much04:08
wolfspraultolerances are bad04:08
wolfsprauleverything is bad04:08
wolfspraulyou sell for 10 cents04:09
wpwrakwhich again would point to them being a sub-optimal tree to bark up. the source that finances that shared IP would be better.04:09
wolfspraulthe good ones from Japan or Taiwan cost 50 cents04:09
wolfspraulwhat do you do now?04:09
wolfspraulyou can just either continue or close your company04:09
wolfspraulyou cannot genetically reinvent an entire company full of people04:09
wolfspraulcompany culture is self-selecting04:09
wpwrakwell, you cuold perhaps try to see if there are small improvements you can make. before the name is ruined completely.04:09
wolfspraulyou cannot start with farmers, and then 5 years into it when you have 100 farmers hacking into their keyboards suddenly reboot the entire company with a bunch of US-trained PhDs04:10
wpwrakof course if everybody flinches when they read "made in china" on a connector and doesnt' even look beyond that, then your chances are slim04:10
wpwrakoh, there are many ways to bring fresh blood into a company. of course, if you want to do a complete makeover, better shut down the old one and start something new04:11
wolfspraulthe fact is that Ingenic blew their entrance into phones04:11
wolfsprauland Qi and Ingenic blew to setup something like Linaro04:11
wolfspraulnow all they can hope for are tablets04:11
wolfspraulwe'll see04:12
wpwrakand hope they survive tablets until the next big thing comes along :)04:12
wolfspraulI like Milkymist better every day :-)04:12
wolfspraulyes but they will be late/miss that next big thing again04:12
wolfspraulthe cost advantage is all they have04:13
wolfspraulbut if you think from a 'what works' perspective, that's so laughable04:13
wpwrakbeing in tablets must feel a bit like you have end-stage cancer, just dropped out of an airplane and are in free fall, and the only thing you see below you, where you may safely land, is the titanic, going full steam for the iceberg04:13
wolfspraulyou really think someone wants to bring down their entire software *stack* so that the CPU is 10 USD cheaper?04:13
wpwrakso many ways to die, so little hope04:14
wolfspraulso if the SoC maker needs 5 or 10 more USD / pc so that it integrates well with a software stack, boy, that's worth it!04:14
wpwrakfor smart people, the sw stack has little cost04:14
wolfspraulread the Ingenic sources a little :-)04:14
wolfspraulyou may reconsider that04:14
wolfspraulon the Ben, 100% of the cleanup work was done outside of Ingenic and with zero support04:15
wolfspraulno documents were opened04:15
wpwrake.g., why should amazon not use ingenic ? the sw stack is probably marginal. a much bigger worry would be whether ingenic really deliver those millions of chips on time, in good quality, etc.04:15
wolfspraulno single dollar changed hands04:15
wolfspraulnah, then Amazon better design their own SoC04:15
wpwrakyes. we did the smart thing - do our stuff without depending on ingenic04:15
wolfspraula lot of companies try to avoid useless middlemen that can charge whatever margin they wish04:16
wolfsprauland you are suggesting to add one that wouldn't add anything but a tollbooth?04:16
wolfspraulI could not recommend that at all if I were on the Amazon side04:16
wpwrakif they made a 5740 tomorrow that's exactly like the 4740 but with an ARM core instead, it would take is mere days to switch04:16
wpwraks/is/us/04:16
wolfspraulyep04:16
wolfspraulthe "Ingenic SoC" is really a "China SoC"04:17
wolfspraulyou can get *a lot* of such chips from at least 10 or 20 companies04:17
wpwrak(middleman) well, see linaro. could they also do their job without being at excellent terms with ARM ? probably04:17
wolfsprauland that "China SoC" has some serious problems from my perspective, which is how to make great open hardware, fast and working and carrying forward the highest quality free software04:18
wpwraklet's hope they have at least the decency of naming them all <something>4740 :)04:18
wolfspraulso whether we go from the Ben to the Ya on another, newer, China SoC, or switch right to the Milkymist SoC, remains to be seen04:19
wpwrakyou mean as in "we did it for the 4740, but don't count on it happening for the 4780" ?04:19
wolfspraulyes sure, we did excellent on the 474004:19
wpwrak(as a message to ingenic)04:19
wolfspraulLars largely04:19
wolfsprauloh they don't care, they don't even understand04:19
wolfspraulit's like a foreigner talking to you in some totally unintelligable language04:19
wolfspraultrying to tell you something VERY IMPORTANT04:19
wolfspraulha ha04:20
wolfspraulwhat can you do...04:20
wolfspraulfirst another asado :-)04:20
wpwrakso where do their customers get the system software from ?04:20
wolfspraulfrom Ingenic04:20
wolfspraultotally dysfunctional Android builds04:20
wpwrakbut they get it to work ?04:21
wolfspraulI spare you or anyone to copy/paste some reviewer comments from people who accidentally bought such tablets in the US :-)04:21
wpwrak;-)04:21
wolfspraulyay, it boots.04:21
wolfsprauland you can swipe!04:21
wolfspraulLOOOK!04:21
wolfspraul:-)04:21
wolfspraulswipe, swipe04:21
Last message repeated 1 time(s).04:21
wolfspraulhow many do you want to buy?04:21
wolfspraulswipe, swipe04:21
wpwrakdo ingenic see these reviews ?04:21
wolfspraulI doubt it04:21
wolfspraulhow many do you want to buy?04:21
wolfspraulswipe, swipe04:22
wolfspraulI give you a discount if you buy 100!04:22
wpwrakmaybe you should bring them a few the next time :)04:22
wpwrak;-))04:22
wpwrak(a few reviews)04:22
wolfspraullike I said, I foudn the secret behind their low-cost :-)04:22
wolfspraulthere's always a price to pay, now I know which one...04:22
wolfspraulbbiab04:23
wpwrakyes, but then there's the question of what they perceive as problems. even if their customers all fail, that may be okay, as long as they burn enough initial investment on buying chips04:23
wolfspraulyes04:24
wolfspraulit's a big world04:24
wolfsprauland that is how Ingenic sees it04:24
wolfspraulthe US saying is "a sucker is born every minute", no?04:24
wpwrakyeah :)04:24
wolfspraulI grew up in Germany, until I started living in Asia I could not imagine that stores sell products that just plain DO NOT WORK.04:24
wolfspraulnever did04:24
wpwrakof course, another problem would be that we don't have have what they need. their customers would want to have full android support.04:25
wolfspraullike an iron (to iron shirts) where the power cable inside is broken and was never connected04:25
wolfspraulnot just on one, but on the entire lot04:25
wpwraknot some nice upstream patches and openwrt04:25
wolfspraulnobody cares, it's cheap, it sells04:25
wolfspraulmaybe the poor buyers have to solder the missing cable themselves04:25
wolfspraulor whatever04:25
wolfspraulit doesn't matter04:25
wpwrakyeah, the infamous "china crap" :)04:25
wolfspraulwell, the buyer is in control. he can choose to not buy.04:26
wpwraknot always04:26
wolfspraulyou better make good use of that choice :-)04:26
wpwrakif all you find in the stores is china crap, you'r screwed04:26
wolfspraulwell, you better keep that control04:26
wolfspraulyes their customers want full and powerful android, definitely04:26
wolfsprauland no, we cannot deliver that either04:27
wolfspraulour path is longer04:27
wolfsprauland requires understanding of how things connect and depend on each other in that big software stack04:27
wolfspraulbbl04:27
pabs3oh, nice there is #opencores04:51
pabs3and #openrisc04:52
Action: pabs3 goes lurking some more04:52
wolfspraulcool just saw Milkymist mentioned here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS07:29
blogicxiangfu: cool stuff09:30
xiangfublogic, cool milkymist one. :D09:31
e33anyone have installed backtrack on smartphone?09:43
wolfspraulwhat is backtrack?10:32
wejpit is a linux distribution made for penetration testing10:46
blogicthe guys ip resolved to lebanon10:58
blogicso he was using an anonymizer i guess10:58
penguinheaddid anyone play around with a SDIO serial card for Ben?12:20
wpwrakpenguinhead: not strictly sdio-serial, but there's this: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/nxuart16:15
wpwrakit's a small AVR on an 8:10 card. you can program the AVR from the ben and also communicate with it. the AVR in turn has a UART and RX and TX are brought out to a connector: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/uart-20110131.jpg16:16
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/uart-inserted.jpg16:16
penguinheadwpwrak: but i do not suppose it is possible to connect the serial console of the Ben through this microcontroller?16:25
penguinhead(i was looking for a hassle-free way of connecting to Ben's serial console)16:25
wpwrakah .. no, that's for giving the ben an interface to talk serial to something else, not for giving access to the console. well, unless perhaps you have two bens ;)16:28
penguinhead:p16:29
penguinheadbut could the SDIO interface present itself as ttyS, in theory?16:29
wpwrakyes, it probably could. you'd have to bit-bang it, though. and timing is hairy16:37
Action: kristianpaul remebers bit-banging uart in pic16f8416:39
penguinheadbetter stick to the testpoints then16:39
penguinheadi thought i read somewhere that the exposed testpoints in the battery compartment share GPIO lines with the keyboard though, is that correct?16:40
kristianpaulbit-bang support inside kernel may be usefull then 16:42
penguinheadttyl! :: goes home for the weekend ::16:51
DocScrutinizerseen incredibly nifty scope probes today: shaped like a Y of 10cm height, with rubber feet at the 2 "upper" ends, and a pogo-pin like a stork bill 90° "into the table" from the lower end of the Y. the bill was made of transparent plastic and had colored LED to identify the probe and to illuminate the PCB area with the testpoint where the whole Y-probe would contact to by own weight18:38
wpwrakthat sounds clever indeed18:40
wpwrakhow are those probes grounded ?18:49
DocScrutinizerconnected to a 1GHz scope with a special coax+power+$X cable18:56
DocScrutinizerthe cable enters at one of the feet, well near it - IIRC18:57
DocScrutinizerthe structure of the Y is made from ~15mm diameter black tubes. I didn't dare to touch, so can't say how much they weigh or what material the Y is made of18:58
DocScrutinizerthe scope itself was some brand I never heard before, and it's been "tiny", size of a large shoebox18:59
DocScrutinizerbut with a fan ;-D18:59
wpwrakwhat was the brand name ?19:01
wpwrakand only 1 GHz ? now i'm a bit disappointed ;-)19:01
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.lecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=4819:04
wpwrakyou have never heard of lecroy ?19:09
DocScrutinizerI haven't heard of a lot of brands19:09
DocScrutinizerI'm not exactly into market studies19:10
wpwrakthe lecroys look cute. i wonder if their "density" display (number of beam passes changes color) is really as good as it looks on their pictures19:10
wpwrakah, but lecroy are pretty well-known. sort of #3 after tek and agilent19:11
DocScrutinizercan't find the friggin Y-probes. Wonder if they were genuine LeCroy19:11
kristianpaul]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\19:11
DocScrutinizerWUT19:11
kristianpauloope19:11
kristianpaulsorry19:11
DocScrutinizer:-P19:11
DocScrutinizerHEY, finally: http://cdn.lecroy.com/files/manuals/hfp1000-om-e_rev_f.pdf19:25
wpwrakpretty cool19:32
DocScrutinizerindeed19:33
DocScrutinizerdamn, all this nice nifty lab equipment around me and I'm tied to that friggin WinXP workstation all day, studying ClearCase with proprietary extensions, even worse OUTLOOK (BLAAAARRRGHHHH!!!)19:40
wpwrak;-)))19:40
wpwrakif you're nice during the day, maybe they'll let you play with the equipment at night ? :)19:40
DocScrutinizerit's obviously impossible in fscknf outlook to keep all your in and out msgs in one folder, nicely threaded19:41
DocScrutinizernah, you get shot when they catch you after 21:00 in the building :-D19:41
DocScrutinizeror they trap you in the rotary tile or what that thing is called, or in the elevator19:43
kristianpaulnow that you know libfpvm and the fpvm better than anyone here i was wondering you can tell more about how to use it21:31
kristianpaulfor example this compiler.c is an interpreter or have more feaures?21:32
kristianpauland eactually how you load the result of the copilation to the  pfu21:33
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: sounds like those elevators with the alarm button making a telephone call ... but the defective technology dialing the wrong number. now, how many very long weekends are there per year and how long can the average human survive without water ?21:33
kristianpaulalso how i can use this libs in other apps that may need to calculate heavelly sin/cos/atan21:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: compiler.c is a compiler. it generates pfpu "machine code".21:34
wpwrakbut why here and not on #milkymist ?21:34
kristianpaulhere is not lekernel and dont bother anybody again ecept you ;)21:34
kristianpaulexcept*21:34
wpwrak;-)21:34
kristianpaulof course if u dont mind :)21:35
kristianpauldont want*21:35
wpwrakplus other ~43 people :)21:35
kristianpaulhe21:35
kristianpaulokay... you fot the point21:35
wpwraki haven't looked at the compiler-pfpu interface yet21:35
kristianpauls/fpt/got21:35
wpwraksoi don't know how the code gets there, how the data gets in and how the data gets back out21:35
kristianpaulhum21:36
kristianpaulok just cleanup for it,but are you considering go for it later?21:36
kristianpaulThe idea of milkymist having a compiler for its own pfpu is quite interesting in think21:36
wpwrakso far, i just looked at code generation. code is generated in 3-4 steps: one is from strings containing an expressions to a parse tree. then, the parse tree to "virtual" machine code. and then, finally, the virtual machine code to physical machine code.21:37
kristianpaulat least if you have a lib that can boost and take off some heavy operation from  main cpu21:37
wpwrakmy focus at the moment is more at the top of that stack. i've already tackled the bottom end, the scheduler (that's virtual -> physical)21:38
wpwrakyeah, that would be the interface. i'll get to it, eventually.21:38
wpwraki'll need that to make a proper symbol table. but that's just a performance optimization.21:38
wpwrakand i can't bring down compile time a lot anyway. i already know where some 70-80% of the time go and there's little potential for improving that. (i.e., the scheduler)21:39
kristianpaulrtems scheduler?21:40
wpwraki expect to be able to squeeze something like 10% out of the top level of the compiler21:40
wpwrakno no ... pfpu instruction scheduler21:40
kristianpaulah ok, sorry :)21:40
wpwraklibfpvm/gfpus.c or libfpvm/lnfpus.c21:41
wpwrakthe former is easier to understand. the latter more efficient :)21:41
kristianpaulokay thanks, now i have a  question for lekernel i hope :)21:43
kristianpauland may be others here got caught from this talk and may get more interested of milkymist features21:44
wpwrakhehe :)21:45
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