#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-12-05

niniadcobrewolfspraul: Hi, I'm Miriam, Rafa's gf. You will send a nn to wpwrak these days that is for me, so I will like to know how to pay for it02:25
niniadcobrehi all02:25
wolfspraulhey, nice02:25
wolfspraulniniadcobre: welcome here and happy to see you!02:26
niniadcobre:-) hehe thanks  02:26
wolfspraulhow is everything?02:26
wolfspraulare you still in beautiful Buenos Aires?02:26
wolfspraulI lost track, I thought there was a move somewhere...02:26
niniadcobrewolfspraul: pretty good, needing a nn because rafa is always breaking the fw02:27
wolfspraulniniadcobre: please shoot me a short mail to wolfgang@sharism.cc02:27
niniadcobrewolfspraul: yeah, we move like 1400km away from bs as02:27
wolfspraulI will reply with a pay link, I suggest credit card (visa or mastercard). is that ok?02:27
wolfspraulpaypal or bitcoins also ok02:27
niniadcobreyes, perfect02:27
niniadcobrevisa/master any of them 02:27
wolfspraulif you want to try bitcoins, here you can spend some! :-)02:27
niniadcobrehehe, no I don't have, so I will try the old methods (crdit card :P)02:28
kristianpaulhi miriam :)02:31
niniadcobrehi :) kristianpaul 02:32
wolfspraulyeah :-) niniadcobre - stop by here more :-)02:33
wolfspraulwhat are you doing nowadays?02:34
wolfspraulany exciting ideas for new computing devices?02:34
niniadcobrenot really, I start to teach at university this year (aside my other 8hs job) so that kept me quite busy02:36
niniadcobrebut I hope to start playing a bit with mi new nn :-) 02:38
niniadcobreand teach somethign about it too 02:38
wolfspraulniniadcobre: what do you teach?02:39
niniadcobreit is a very basic class about computer architecture, os, networking and security 02:40
wolfspraulhey, use Milkymist!02:41
wolfspraulseriously :-)02:41
wpwraka short class about pretty much everything :)02:41
niniadcobrehehehe yeah.... 02:41
wolfspraulat least they learn about a free architecture all the way into the SoC, with 'interesting' problems left open for the students :-)02:41
wolfspraulunlike the other boring architectures, where everything just works - bah!02:42
wolfspraulseriously, you interested?02:42
wolfspraulor you don't have such flexibility?02:42
wolfspraulprobably also study material missing...02:42
wpwrakwolfspraul: and where would be the angle for the government ? how well do you bribe ? :)02:42
wolfspraulnot at all02:42
wolfsprauland yes, that's indeed the first question that comes up in such proposals02:42
wolfspraulfrom the professors02:42
wolfspraul"how much money do I get?"02:42
kristianpaulmilkymist really have all you need for a computer arch os and networking class :)02:43
wolfspraulthat's why I don't go there anymore...02:43
wolfspraulacademia is really corrupt imho02:43
wolfspraulmaybe a few idealist holdouts like Miriam :-)02:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: it's chronically underfunded. that's what you get then02:43
wolfspraulthat may well be02:43
wolfspraulanyway, niniadcobre maybe you think about Milkymist02:44
wolfspraulprobably study material missing though02:44
wolfspraulbut that's something that is good work for us to add02:44
kristianpauli mean in the source code/documentation avaliable02:44
kristianpaulstudy material, very important indeed02:45
niniadcobreI would love to, but this is a pretty basic basic class (not grade career) and they do not have any background, so I need to keep it reeeeeeeealllly simple 02:46
kristianpaulah wai, no at all, check this niniadcobre http://lekernel.net/blog/2011/10/soc-milkymist-le-developpement-logiciel-en-pratique/02:46
wolfspraulniniadcobre: what is not simple about Milkymist?02:50
niniadcobrethat sound like a really good idea for the professor working in embedded class 02:50
niniadcobrewolfspraul: but not mine, they asked me (career's director)  to teach them how the things works but working with the tools they use every day02:53
wpwrakthat would be excel and flash ? :)02:53
niniadcobrethey really don't know nothing about systems, and I need to merge everything in 60hs :)02:54
wpwrak... on the university's latest pentium I02:54
niniadcobrewpwrak: hahaha true... we are in a really bad situation 02:54
wolfspraulniniadcobre: yes but still I think the Milkymist is in fact a super simple good study object02:54
wolfspraulalthough I am not sure what you mean with 'systems'02:55
wolfspraulanyway, it's just an idea02:55
wolfspraulif you have feedback what kind of study material one might need in such a case, let us know02:55
wolfspraulyou work with the students, you have a lot of valuable insights02:55
wolfsprauland sure, I have no illusions about what they are learning, how much, how talented they are, what they will really do with that knowledge in life later, and so on02:56
wolfspraulbut I'm an eternal optimistc02:56
wolfspraulyou are teaching the future nobel laureates there!02:56
wpwrakwolfspraul: the first problem is that M1 is about USD 800 too expensive for that university. unless, of course, you manage to bribe some politicians in some way02:57
wolfspraulwe haven't even talked about money yet, I am sure we find cheap equipment to support any serious academic effort02:57
wolfspraulemphasis on 'serious'02:58
wolfsprauland yes, indeed I am in no need to compete with large corps about who has the most efficient and untracable bribing02:58
wolfspraulthe professors need to break through that, or students who don't even go study or drop out02:58
wpwrakand the latest statement of our dear president was that she didn't wish "not even a single nail" to be imported. so good luck with selling that stuff made in evil asia :)02:59
wolfspraulsome always notice last :-)02:59
wolfspraulha ha. politics.02:59
wolfspraulthat's the woman who surrounds herself with tons of imported luxury goods, no?02:59
niniadcobrewolfspraul: the same... 02:59
wpwrakthey're not strictly imported .. it's personal belongings she brings home from her shopping trips in paris and such03:00
wolfsprauldefinitely not nails though03:00
wolfspraulbut maybe 200 USD nail polish03:01
wolfspraulyou just misunderstood this 'not a single nail' message03:01
wolfspraulthat was a reminder to herself03:01
wolfspraulonly fur, shoes, boats, jets, cosmetics, watches, ...03:02
wolfspraulBUT NOT A SINGLE NAIL!03:02
wpwrakde-industrialization is actually part of the plan03:06
wpwrakpopulism thrives best if the people are uneducated and depend on the government for subsistence03:06
wolfspraulin my next life I go into politics and have some fun03:08
wolfspraulwhat I read about the Argentine government and cabinet sometimes is the kind of stories that makes me want to participate :-)03:09
wolfspraulall heights and depths of real life are there :-)03:09
wolfsprauldon't you agree? :-)03:09
wolfspraulit's like a drama, like opera03:10
rohheh. and i thought politicians are there to entertain us. after all they do a really good show and not much proper work03:10
wolfspraulstill singing an aria with knife in the chest03:10
rohlike a soap opera, ack.03:10
wolfspraulkeine menschliche schwaeche war ihnen fremd...03:11
wolfspraulgreat stuff03:11
wolfspraulalmost as good as Milkymist :-)03:11
wpwraki think we need to look for more classical examples. nero may not be a bad one.03:24
wpwrakstatemanship, sanity, ... it all fits03:24
wolfspraulwow this is an impressive chart http://theunderstatement.com/post/11982112928/android-orphans-visualizing-a-sad-history-of-support06:48
rohhrhr.. and now think there openmoko would be in that06:51
rohor the nn06:51
wolfspraulthe problem is that hardware prices are collapsing, and will continue to do so06:59
wolfspraulso making a 30 USD product last 3 years instead of 1 may not be worth it06:59
wolfspraulinteresting developments for sure06:59
blogicinteresting chart indeed07:57
blogicone day i will write a book about why most management teams suck and actively prevent developer crowds fro being productive and pushing updated07:58
wolfspraulnot sure whether it's that easy07:59
wolfspraulI think the android update and malware situation was obvious from the beginning, for everyone08:02
blogicwell i am yet to find able managers08:04
blogicevery company i worked at so far suffred similar problems08:04
wolfspraulmaybe a lot of customers just don't care, they use their phone to make phone calls, and replace it when they run into any problem08:05
blogicone of the biggest problems being that most companyies expect their devs to do QA themselves08:05
blogicwolfspraul: that is infact the case08:05
blogicmobile market is a special case i guess08:05
whitequarkdoes anyone know who of the android vendors is the most "open"?08:13
whitequarkafaik in this case it's not a religious choice anymore: if they are, you don't get stuck with an outdated kernel due to blobs08:13
wolfspraulhard to say, maybe you should follow the cyanogen project if you are not doing that yet08:16
blogicwolfspraul: htc stopped lockng the bootloaders08:16
wolfspraulit looks like the phones sold directly by Google are pretty good08:16
blogicmaking cyanogenmod easy to install08:16
wolfspraulyes but as the article points out the entire android ecosystem is trapped with the update situation08:17
wolfspraulnot sure whether they can or even want to change that, seems everybody who participates is satisfied with their Android business08:22
whitequarkwell, I never actually used any android stuff for more than 10 minutes (total in my life)08:44
whitequarkbut I did used Apple stuff, and I dislike it08:44
whitequarkand you don't have any other viable options actually08:44
blogici switched to android about 1 year ago08:44
whitequarkbecause I definitely need at least web and gps/maps08:44
whitequarkand the only way you can get that in one device is buying a smartphone08:45
blogicnow, after 1 year i must say i dont use the features, its big and the battery is always empty08:45
blogici have been thinking about switching back to a "dumbphone"08:45
whitequarkthe battery stuff, yes, but a friend with android says that after installing cyanogen it's 2 days with low to moderate usage08:45
whitequarkfine for me08:45
whitequarkI need the features, and you have plenty of devices on market. Big? select the one you like more08:46
whitequarkdumbphones are actually too dumb. I have been frequently caught when I needed to use email08:46
whitequarkor, worse, gps08:46
blogici live in a urban area so i need no gps08:47
blogicand having a 12 hour workday i am happy when i get no mails :)08:47
blogicwhat i will miss is maps08:48
blogicthe only real feature i ever found in a smartphone that is f use to me08:48
blogicbut then i am a late adopter anyhow :D08:48
whitequarkof course I live in urban area too08:50
whitequarkthat's the very reason I need gps08:50
whitequarkah, wait08:50
whitequarkwhat country do you live in?08:50
wolfspraulblogic: I don't think you are a late adopter, don't fall for the marketing propaganda of some desperate high-tech shops :-)08:50
wolfspraulthey are under sales pressure, and try to make everybody feel late, that's all08:50
blogicwolfspraul: :)08:51
blogicwolfspraul: hamburg/germany08:51
wolfspraulit always amazed me how much they can talk people into a 5-year old computer being 'outdated', simply by constantly raising expectations on which features a 'not-outdated' computer must have08:51
wolfspraulhilarious to watch08:51
blogicwolfspraul: i am stuck with vim + xterm ;)08:51
wolfspraulmeanwhile we pay super high premiums for old cheese08:51
wolfspraulold wine08:51
blogicas long as it is red wine i am ok with paying good money for good wine08:52
whitequarkblogic: ah. well, maybe you have better topological sense than me08:52
whitequarkblogic: because I live in Moscow, and it is... well, F*CKING BIG, and it is NOT easy to navigate in08:52
whitequarkto the point I feel better walking without a map because I don't then know that I am already lost08:53
whitequark(the "already lost" part does not depend a lot on the time in walk, actually.)08:53
whitequarkon the other hand, when I have a choice of two differnt roads, of which one is right, I *constantly* select the wrong one08:55
whitequarkstill, gps helps08:55
wpwrak"wolfspraul: don't really think that's about android. there, study milkymist !"11:06
kyakbrilliant :)11:07
wolfspraulyeah, too brilliant for me :-) what's the point?11:11
wolfspraulthat's in reference to the Android update analysis?11:11
wpwrakin reference to the word frequency qi-bot just reported11:16
whitequarkhuh, I'm 9th11:17
whitequarkthat's unexpected11:18
wpwrakit should also let you chose a cur-off point. e.g., "this year" or "last two months"11:20
kyakit can do it for a day11:24
whitequarkhow much would it cost to implement an accelerated video driver for JZ4750L?11:54
wolfspra1lwhitequark: let's write an accelerated video driver for Milkymist instead :-)12:24
whitequarkAyla, wolfspraul: I don't need that myself12:59
whitequarka friend of mine wants that and he's going to pay... some amount12:59
kyakcustom driver development is usually very expensive :)13:10
whitequarkkyak: I think so13:15
viricwhitequark: for the driver... couldn't it be based on some dingoo code?18:22
Action: DocScrutinizer feels like a word18:32
viricI thought the chips of the nanonote and the dingoo were similar. and I imagine the dingoo has an open source accelerated driver18:34
viricbut it may be only fantasy.18:34
kristianpaulviric: coult be fantasy, is not a game focused device?18:44
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: word?18:45
kristianpaulWhere is your sentence? :-)18:45
viricyes, game focused18:46
viric"CPU: 400MHz Jz4740 Revised Processor and Motherboard"18:46
viricthat's very different from the nanonote?18:47
viricah no18:49
viricCPU Ingenic JZ473218:49
viricwell, there are different dingoos around I think18:49
DocScrutinizer[2011-12-05 11:59:36] <qi-bot> Top10(words): 1. wpwrak(232923) 2. wolfsprau(156105) 3. kristianpaul(70564) 4. kyak(52021) 5. DocScrutinizer(49656) 18:51
kristianpaulgot it ;)18:51
viricthis is how much each talked, or how much people requested them?18:52
DocScrutinizerI guess it's a completely bogus value anyway18:52
mthviric: the "real" Dingoo is the A32019:29
mthsince that became a success various unrelated devices have received similar names19:29
viricah ok19:29
mthwe don't have video acceleration on the Dingoo yet, not under Linux anyway19:30
mthalso, the IPU in the 4750 is more advanced than the one in the 474019:30
mthI did talk to one of the V4L developers and V4L is the right API to add IPU support to19:31
mththere is code from Ingenic to use MXU (SIMD) and I think also the IPU from MPlayer19:33
mthbut like most Ingenic code, while it gets the job done, it doesn't stick to any kind of standard interface19:33
mthso it has zero chance of being accepted upstream19:33
viricok clea19:36
whitequarkit's JZ4750L19:37
whitequarkit is _not_ JZ475019:37
mthdvdk did some work to get accelerated playback on the NN19:37
whitequarkthat somehow is a huge difference19:37
viricyes sure.19:37
viricvery good work.19:37
whitequarkit isn't related to JZ4720/4740 either19:37
whitequarkIngenic has a really... ingenious naming scheme19:37
mthyeah, causing lots of confusion19:38
whitequarkthey also have 4750D19:38
viricnoone here has friends at Ingenic?19:38
whitequarkI don't quite get how different letters in same family can be more different than different families19:38
whitequarkthat's one huge WTF19:38
whitequarkyou don't have any docs on SIMD, too19:39
whitequarkjust some reverse-engineered info, and it's not enough to use the opcodes19:39
whitequarkadd to binutils, maybe19:39
whitequarkiirc in the mplayer they have embedded them straight in assembler code with .byte and friends19:40
mththeir official solution is some kind of extra preprocessing step with awk19:41
mthbinutils support would be the right way to do it indeed19:41
Action: DocScrutinizer sighs on having access to complete source of a LTE stack now, and it's not exactly worth anything20:31
kristianpaulKleingarten owners around? (sorry OT)20:52
whitequarkkristianpaul: what's that?21:11
wpwrakgerman for small garden ?21:24
whitequarkwpwrak: any idea of how it may be even _remotely_ related to #qi?21:52
wpwrakperhaps because some people here speak german - so at least the question can be understood or interpreted ? :)21:55
whitequark0 =5 70=OBLAO ;8 <=5 B5< 65?.. :)22:28
wpwrakquid pro quo ?22:33
Jay7whitequark: ;)22:44
Action: Jay7 -> sleep22:47
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: for STE it hopefully is :)22:55
DocScrutinizersure, the LTE stack probably is extremely fine - just my access to it is not as exciting as I once thought it might be22:56
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: and maybe one day, there'll be a chance to put your experience with LTE to good use in the name of freedom as well. you're now officially our mole in LTE-dom ;-)22:56
wpwrakhehe ;-)22:56
wpwrakthat's commonly known as "anti-climax" ;-)22:56
DocScrutinizerhmm, never heard of it but sounds about right22:57
DocScrutinizerand *of course* all their images are signed22:57
DocScrutinizerthe only exciting thing I learnt today was I'll get a chance to learn about their signing infra22:57
DocScrutinizerthere's exactly ONE signing host (I don't think I'm already breaking any NSA by saying that)22:58
wpwrakit will probably be disappointingly insecure22:58
wpwraknDa :)22:58
DocScrutinizermech typo22:58
wpwrakone host sounds sensible. if there's no network cable going there, even better. of course, that may be confidential information22:59
DocScrutinizerit sounded to me like that signing may or may not work, depending on your luck, or moon phase23:00
wpwrakso what will your work be on that LTE stack ?23:00
wpwrakhehe ;-)23:00
DocScrutinizernot entirely clear, but base software, particularly drivers for interfaces it seems23:01
DocScrutinizerthink of stuff like on crappy S3C2442 where all periph clocks are derived from master clock23:02
wpwrakah yes, industry has a voracious need for drivers23:02
wpwrakwell, there's worse than having synchronized clocks :)23:02
DocScrutinizernow what's wrong with an UART not working up to 6Mbps though it should? Master clock too slow :-D23:03
wpwrakyes, that's sometimes the drawback of a master clock for everything :)23:03
DocScrutinizerno divider available on subclock generator to run at 6Mbps with that master23:04
wpwrakadd a PLL ;-)23:04
DocScrutinizerwe're SW - alas23:04
DocScrutinizerno chip modding23:04
DocScrutinizerthe lab is not essentially differing from TPE OM lab23:05
wpwrakthen it gets trickier23:05
DocScrutinizerjust a bit larger23:05
wpwrakand just as much fun ? :)23:05
DocScrutinizersure, I bet23:05
wpwrakoh dear23:05
wpwrakhow are your coworkers ? friendly ?23:06
DocScrutinizernah, my second day's evening23:06
DocScrutinizeryep, so far23:06
DocScrutinizerEE folks23:06
DocScrutinizerwe're a nice bunch23:06
wpwrakgood. so you can curse sw together ;-)23:06
DocScrutinizernit exactly23:06
DocScrutinizernot* - EE23:06
DocScrutinizerwe're EE SW23:07
DocScrutinizersth like that23:07
DocScrutinizerlot of scopes, few soldering irons23:07
wpwrakah :) EE who don't run scared when somebody shows them a vi. good :)23:07
DocScrutinizerI'm not that sure - win all over23:08
wpwrakfinally real equipment. you must have missed that23:08
DocScrutinizerindeed, I did23:08
DocScrutinizerdecent eval boards, lauterbacj in-circuit-debuggers23:08
DocScrutinizersome hw on every desk, next to workstation23:09
DocScrutinizernot in lab ;-D23:09
DocScrutinizera PSU here, a logic analyzer there23:09
DocScrutinizerbut for now I'm digging thru ClearCase23:10
wpwrakthat's kinda like svn for perverts, right ?23:10
DocScrutinizerraher like git for windows folks23:11
wpwrakoh, that advantaged ?23:11
DocScrutinizereven has graphs for dependencies23:12
wpwrakgood for them :)23:12
DocScrutinizerbut we may use cygwin ;-D23:12
mthis it still the case that dynamic views are too heavy to actually use with a big group of people or did that change with advances in hardware?23:12
DocScrutinizerseems it's not an issue - dynamic view is the usual one23:13
wpwrakmth: faster hardware - the ultimate solution to software development incompetence ;-)23:13
mththe CC people were looking down on our use of CVS, but we got builds in 5 minutes while theirs took hours23:13
DocScrutinizerCC is a friggin monster23:13
DocScrutinizerconfig layers for config layers for config layers23:14
DocScrutinizerand it not only competes against git, it also makes make obsolete23:15
mthI guess it didn't help that they ran the CC server on expensive Sun hardware... so expensive that they couldn't replace it yet even though it was 5 years old23:15
wpwraki'm happy that we now have revision control systems that operate smoothly with local copies. that's probably the biggest improvement since CVS23:15
DocScrutinizeron CC you can define to be local what ever you like23:15
mthCVS is horrible, actually, but all of its flaws can be worked around23:16
wpwrakmaking make obsolete - when just shooting your own foot is not enough, but you have to first poison, irradiate, and burn it23:16
DocScrutinizerand btw they wrapped some proprietary stuff around CC to make it work in their environment and naming scheme23:16
wpwraki worked for a while with CVS. wasn't that bad. not all that much of a difference to SVN for how i used it23:16
DocScrutinizerthen there's eclipse23:17
DocScrutinizerintegrated into all that23:17
wpwrakare you sure you got the name right ? STE ? not SaTaN ? :)23:18
mthCVS needs a server even for a diff, which is probably the most common daily operation23:18
mthand tagging is done per file, so it's extremely slow on large code bases23:19
mthif you abort a tag command halfway, you actually have tagged half the archive23:19
DocScrutinizercool shit23:19
mtheven figuring out which tags exist means you look for the oldest surviving tag and run "cvs log" on that23:19
mthSVN is a big step up from CVS for any non-trivial use23:20
DocScrutinizerwell tags under CC aren't exactly joy either23:20
mth*look for the oldest surviving file23:20
mthlike README or the top-level Makefile23:21
wpwraki vaguely remember mails being sent before larger-scale changes in CVS ...23:21
DocScrutinizerdunno, somehow this shit makes me feel sick nowadays23:21
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: shit like CVS ? or like CC ?23:22
DocScrutinizerso probably I'll like it in 3 months23:22
DocScrutinizerCC, git, CVS, eclipse, C23:22
wpwrakah, software development in general :)23:22
DocScrutinizerI somehow feel like an old professor who prefers teaching and discussing with other old professors over actually getting his hands dirty23:23
DocScrutinizerand gooosh I hated those guys23:24
DocScrutinizernow I'm obviouls yone of them23:24
wpwrakyour mind may have wandered off, but your hands won't have forgotten the joy of getting dirty :)23:25
DocScrutinizerhat's what I hope for23:25
DocScrutinizerthough I also hate the taxes we poor employees have to pay23:26
mthI do like Eclipse for Java, since there it actually adds something besides syntax highlighting23:26
mthlike "list all callers of this method"23:26
DocScrutinizerthey got that stuff there, sth alike lxr/mxr23:26
wpwrakthose are what keep the 1% fed. they'd starve without it. show some compassion ! ;-)23:26
mthbut last time I checked it didn't have stuff like that for C/C++23:27
mthnot reliable, anyway23:27
DocScrutinizerlooked pretty much like mxr.maemo.org to me23:28
mthfor example, when methods are overloaded, does it show the actual callers of the method or all callers to methods of the same name?23:28
mthwell, if you want to remove overloading, the question "who calls this" is very relevant :)23:28
wpwrakhere's a more universal solution if you're using git: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/bin/gg23:28
DocScrutinizermth: sure23:29
DocScrutinizerluckily this is mostly c stuff23:29
DocScrutinizeras, you know, we're the base sw dept23:30
DocScrutinizerand drivers usually aren't c++23:30
mthwpwrak: yep, but if you're doing OO then you might get a lot of false positives from either overloading or methods with the same name in a completely separate class hierarchy23:30
wpwrak(gg) a quick grep on all the files in the hierarchy. and then, if you don't ^C, it runs vi on all of them, with the search expression already pre-set. 23:30
wpwrakoh sure, with OO you're doomed23:31
DocScrutinizeryeah, overload -23:31
mthEclipse when editing Java actually looks at the parse tree of the program and not just the text23:31
mthXcode is also moving in that direction although it's still hit and miss23:31
wpwrakyou mean the class hierarchy ? 'cause the parse tree won't tell you much more than the text23:31
DocScrutinizera proper compiler would do that job as well23:32
wpwrakand a proper language doesn't have that problem in the first place ;-)23:32
mthparse tree with type info23:32
mthI think it's one of the reasons Apple wanted their own compiler and wrote it as a library with a small command line front-end23:32
mthGPL3 being the other reason23:33
DocScrutinizera compiler lib, *nice*23:34
DocScrutinizerwell pals, I'm a wreck and in 5h the night is over23:34
wpwrakyeah, better get some rest :)23:35
wpwraksleep deprivation and a win-centric sw development environment probably don't go together well 23:36
mthdunno, maybe it makes more sense if you're only half awake23:36
whitequarkoh yes, lxr.23:38
whitequarkpretty much screwed up for OO23:38
wpwrakhmm, possibly. then at least the neurons sleeping will think it was only a bad dream.23:39
whitequarkthe saddest thing is, exuberant ctags are fine for OO, it's just the frontend23:39
whitequarkand it's written in Perl. more precisely, in one of worst forms of it. not a pearl of software development indeed23:40
wpwrakthe nice think about perl is that there's more than one way. and what's even better is that, no matter how many there are, at least one is at the same time brilliant and unbelievably dirty :)23:41
whitequarkthe thing I love in Ruby is that it does aforementioned rule the right way23:42
whitequarki.e. it's easier to not turn your code into a tangled mess than the opposite23:42
whitequarkquite an achievment imo23:43
wpwrakhmm, scary. was that xchat crash instant karmic retribution ?23:44
whitequarkoh, have I talked to you in the meantime?..23:44
whitequarksleep deprivation here, too23:44
whitequarkwpwrak: then http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2011-12-05#1323128537-1323128626;23:44
wpwraknaw, i'll stick with perl as my main scripting language. python is okay-ish for some things, too, but i don't use it enough to really feel at home there. also, it tries too much to enforce "clean" programming. if i care about that, it's something bigger and then it'll be in C anyway.23:49
whitequarkwell, ruby/python is a bit religious23:50
whitequarkpython cares about cleanness, ruby gathered some bits from perl (multiple ways) and lisp (uses lambdas a lot in a nice and understandable way)23:51
whitequarkso, you see why there are quite a few flamewars23:51
wpwrakah usual ;-)23:52
whitequarkqi-bot: thanks23:52
whitequarkI wonder if it really knows the syntax23:52
whitequarks,the,the perl,23:52
whitequarkwpwrak: do you possibly know why there are few combined wifi+bt minipcie cards around?23:54
whitequarka valid reason may be that they usually work bad. on the other side, I've only seen broadcom ones23:55
whitequarklooks like "screwed up and losing 50% of packets" is the normal modus operandi for them23:55
wpwrakno, dunno. is minipcie still used a lot for wlan in general ? or have they moved to integrating it in a non-modular way ?23:56
whitequarkstill used a lot23:56
whitequarkand I like it23:56
whitequarkbecause you can get all that broadcom shit and burn it in microwave23:56
whitequarkand insert some sane atheros ones instead23:57
whitequarkevery f*cking broadcom device I seen in my life wasn't working good23:57
whitequarkevery single one.23:57
whitequarkdo they do anything good at all?!23:57
whitequarkand why the hell their crap ends being shipped everywhere23:58
whitequark(I don't know if you've seen "The IT Crowd" sitcom, but if you do, you'll instantly recognize why I often say "ahhh, broadcom...")23:59
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