#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2011-12-02

PiLeSMore seriously but in the same vein, I reckon that releasing a ready-made minimal toolchain that would allow compilation FOR the Ben FROM the Ben would be a Good Thing (TM). I know of some people (including me) who would spend more time working on ports if it didn't take up >2 GB and -more importantly- precious CPU cycles from my^H^Htheir money-generating workstation.00:45
PiLeSjust sayin'00:45
wolfspraulPiLeS: totally hear you00:46
wolfspraulone reason we had to kick out gcc from the standard image once was that the 512mb rootfs was full00:46
wolfspraulit's hovering around 480mb now, basically whenever we add something nice we have to think what else to remove00:47
wolfspraulsure things are installable with opkg, but that requires work to setup and is generally more inconvenient than if things are preinstalled00:47
wolfspraulthanks to work from David and Lars the nand and ubifs are so fast now that we could easily mount the entire 2gb00:47
wolfspraulbut how to switch from 512mb to 2gb without breaking compatibility for a lot of people, that's tough00:48
wolfspraulonce at the beginning we switched from 256mb to 512mb, and it took more than a year until finally people didn't run into bugs related to that switch anymore00:48
PiLeSMaybe what is needed is some form of classification in the packages; a bit like what the Debian guys did, but better ;)00:55
PiLeSAnyway, that wasn't my point.00:59
wolfspraulPiLeS: huh? what was your point then?01:01
PiLeSopkg is easy enough as it is01:02
PiLeSI was dreaming01:02
wolfspraulwhich tools are you missing?01:02
wolfspraulthat's good01:02
wolfspraulmy dream Ben has gigaherz-anything and can do everything01:03
PiLeSthe tools that I'm missing right now (and that I'm too lazy/busy/important/stupid/pick-any to develop by myself is a full xburst toolchain image for the Ben01:05
PiLeSOr maybe it is around and I missed it?01:05
wolfspraulxburst-toolchain, what do you mean exactly?01:06
wolfspraulwe have gcc, we are probably weak on headers and libraries01:06
PiLeSThese are building blocks. They are fine. I was thinking more along the lines of that: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Building_OpenWRT_on_Debian_601:12
PiLeSbut for the Ben.01:12
PiLeSThat's some work01:12
PiLeSbut it will draw the geeks like honey does for flies.01:13
PiLeSFree labour!01:13
wolfspraulyou mean you want to build the entire image on the Ben?01:15
wolfspraulrun openwrt on ben? :-)01:15
PiLeSAnd by For the Ben I really mean FROM the Ben01:15
PiLeSMaybe not the full image, that's where classification kicks in01:16
wolfspraulI think openwrt has some pretty cool online image generators now01:18
wolfspraulunfortunately I forgot the url, lemme see whether I can find it somewhere01:18
wolfspraulhere http://openwrt.linux-appliance.net/ib/wizard.cgi?target=xburst01:18
wolfspraulit's different from your idea but it also offloads building from your notebook/desktop01:19
wolfsprauljust not onto the Ben, but in the other direction (cloud :-))01:19
PiLeSBut that's still not what I meant.01:27
PiLeSAnyway, just throwing ideas in the air, looking at how they fly ;-)01:28
PiLeSThe self-contained idea would appeal to geeks and devs with time to spare; no?01:32
PiLeSI would most certainly devote my spare Ben to that! ;-)01:33
wolfsprauldon't know01:33
wolfspraulwe are talking about smart and imaginative people, they see something in the future01:33
wolfspraulwhich excites them01:33
wolfspraulbut the excitements may differ a lot, because the future is so unclear and so full of possibilities :-)01:33
wolfspraulso yes I can definitely *imagine* that some people get excited about this idea01:34
wolfspraulnot me though, at least not today. I have no problem with the idea of moving the building into the cloud, to powerful servers.01:34
wolfspraulI rather have a great buildhost with gui, like the openwrt link I posted.01:34
PiLeSwell, I do01:34
wolfsprauloh sure, please do01:34
wolfspraulyou asked me, so I answer :-)01:34
wolfspraulfor myself01:34
wolfspraulthink about the Milkymist One case01:34
wolfspraulbuild the bitstream on the M1? the synthesis tools?01:35
wolfspraulthose are nice *ideas*, but not more than that. It will not happen for x years.01:35
PiLeS Not the same thing01:35
wolfspraulI can be motivated about something I can reach in 1 week, 1 month, maybe 3 months.01:35
PiLeSHey! You're a human being! ;-)01:36
wolfspraulthere are many things in-motion. embedded devices become more powerful, making them better targets for full distros, or be able to build all software on them01:36
wolfspraulon the other side there are always yet more embedded devices appearing, with more integration, or specialized tools that need a powerful host computer, for now01:37
wolfspraulso you need to think about the time horizon that motivates you01:37
wolfsprauland I think you do :-)01:37
wolfspraulotherwise you wouldn't be chatting with me here, you would be hacking on your idea01:37
wolfspraulbut your idea is impractical in the short run, so you kinda don't want to start :-)01:37
wolfspraulif your goal is to make the Ben be able to build an entire Ben image on itself - GO FOR IT!01:37
wolfspraulI am not stopping you01:38
wolfspraulbut you will be on this for a few months, maybe years?01:38
wolfspraulso maybe you are not so excited about it, after all01:38
wolfspraulwe see :-)01:38
PiLeSpowerful host computer my shiny ass. This mighty old workstation was built by Michael Dell's tiny helper-hands 12 years ago.01:39
PiLeSAlso, Chatting while said workstation builds stuff...01:39
wolfspraulok, but you want to run it on the Ben or not?01:40
PiLeSI told you, I am a dreamer01:43
PiLeSmaybe I am not so excited. Maybe I am not worth. Maybe I should step down. Maybe Seppuku is in order.02:48
PiLeSMaybe I should go to bed now, and be thankful for having a GF.02:49
PiLeSOr maybe I should try and be more helpful, fuck girls, who needs them?02:51
PiLeSKuessen. Guten nacht.02:52
kyakwpwrak: there is such script, but is it too hard to replace in mind? :)05:22
dvdkwolfspraul: reading through the IRC logs;08:35
dvdkwolfspraul: about the problem with limited space in 512 mb UBIFS partition:08:35
wpwrakkyak: not too hard. but it's kinda cute if the machine does it for you ;-)08:35
dvdkwhy don't we release multiple differently sized images, like one 512 mb "medium" image, and another 1GB "large" image with more packages included?08:36
dvdkshouldn't be too difficult from the toolchain point of view.  all these packages are built anyway, so throwing them into another, larger image shouldn't break anything08:36
dvdkhmm, but size of the mtd  partitions is fixed in the kernel?  would need two corresponding versions for the kernel?08:37
wolfsprauldvdk: yes, fixed partition sizes09:36
kyaknot this partition discussion again :)09:48
dvdkwolfspraul: can't this be passed in from the boot loader?  On PPC there is usually a device-tree file passed to the kernel that configures mtd partitioning09:52
dvdkkyak: :)09:53
rohdvdk: there is no device tree on mips afaik10:31
rohblogic was working on something there.. for a different mips device. maybe we should wait for his work and then followup10:32
dvdki didn't call for a full device tree for mips.  just for some config to pass from boot loader to kernel...10:36
dvdkmaybe cmdline would do?10:37
rohwell.. wouldnt be the worst idea to do proper devicetree and wait till then. lets wait what blogic has to say10:37
mththere is already a config option to parse mtd partitioning from the kernel command line, afaik11:01
dvdkwell, then problem solved?  For a "big" installation we'd only have to change uboot env. vars and install the larger root ubifs, no?11:07
mthprobably; I haven't used the feature yet, but I saw it when browsing menuconfig11:14
kyakhow do oy ulike it, wpwraks?12:34
kyaknow, it must do the same, but automatically :)12:35
kyakdrunk speech translator12:36
wpwrakkyak: ah, nice...13:13
wpwrakhmm :)13:13
wpwrakclose ;-)13:13
blogicroh: yes13:44
blogici have experimental patches for DT on MIPS13:44
blogiclmo will switch all devices to DT and not accept new target unless they are DT conformant13:44
erikkugelHi guys, just a quick question about building the software image. When I run make, config still asks something around 20 question about various modules, including Ethernet Gadget, ALSA and LCD. I'm curious if anyone else had seen this? I'm building the latest Novermber image...17:03
dvdkerikkugel: I guess the kernel config is just not up to date with the kernel version used.  slightly unclean.  the proper fix is usually to run 'yes "" | make config' or something to update the config for the newer kernel (applying defaults)17:16
erikkugelThat sounds great, I'll try it out, the main reason I'm asking is for the Debian script we have on the wiki. Thanks for the lead dvdk!17:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1/patches/rtems: added milkymist-midi-opt.patch (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/f33160720:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: midigen/: MIDI traffic generator (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/395458b20:25
kristianpaulwpwrak: you sent M1 related patches to qi list and not copy to mm dev list for some sepacial reason?23:40
wpwrakthey were meant to go to the other list, of course23:41
kristianpaulsure  :-)23:41
wpwrakthanks for the heads up ! :)23:46
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