#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-11-28

wolfspraulgood morning02:02
kristianpaulmorning02:10
wolfspraulI saw your planet post, but I didn't fully understand it :-)02:11
kristianpaul:-|02:11
kristianpaulWell, i was trying to give a technical update02:12
wolfspraulwell don't worry, I liked it02:12
wolfspraulyeah but what was the main point?02:12
kristianpaulnamuru integration on M102:12
kristianpaulMM*02:12
wolfspraulmaybe the post was a little dry, I didn't see screenshots or any sort of results/text snippets from the machine room02:13
wolfspraulso I didn't get it02:13
wolfspraulbut it's great that you are alive, that comes across well :-)02:13
kristianpaulyeah i tought on that (screenshots)02:13
wolfspraulI think people read this kind of thing reverse02:13
wolfspraullimited time02:13
wolfspraulso they look for the results first02:13
kristianpaulyes i know02:13
wolfspraulif the results are interesting, they will read about how things got there02:14
wolfspraulbut your post has no results, as far as I could see02:14
wolfspraulmaybe deeper inside somewhere, but 99% of readers will never go search02:14
kristianpaulyes02:14
wolfspraulanyway, all fine. I was happy to see the post!02:14
kristianpaulsure, i just wanted to drop a technical update nothing full of results indeed :)02:15
kristianpaulnext post will have some plots for sure :)02:15
rejonarg, still having some problem getting my milkymist onto the net02:36
rejonfrom F1602:36
wolfspraulSebastien just committed some improvements in how DHCP works02:39
rejoni meant nanonote02:50
kristianpauli guess the network-managet annoys a bit because the new usb0 devices02:55
rejonnot sure...i reached my limit with trying02:58
DocSalarySlave*sigh*15:01
kristianpaulFirst week of work? :-)15:02
wolfspraulhah15:03
wolfspraulhow is it going?15:03
wpwrakDocSalarySlave: harsh treatment ? :)15:55
DocSalarySlaveThursday 1. day15:56
kristianpaul*g*15:57
kristianpaulworst :)15:57
wpwrakah, so you're not a slave yet15:58
DocSalarySlaveI am, on holiday15:58
wpwrakstill enjoying freedom. facing the certainty of its end. greek tragedy couldn't set it up better.15:58
DocSalarySlaveanyway FWIW, farnell doesn'T seel to individuals, but a nice CR-lady called me and told me  www.hbe-shop.de will do, and has all the farnell stuff15:59
blogicDocSalarySlave: nice link16:00
rejonwpwrak, is the code for ubb-vga in latest nanonote image?16:09
wpwrakhm, dunno. probably not16:12
wpwraki think the number of people who have one of these boards is very very very low :)16:12
rejonman, if i can't get my m1 working to present images, I'm going to figure out something16:13
wpwrakall i know is that it's not zero. but i don't know if it's > 1 :)16:13
rejonI don't do slides anymore, so need novel way to use my m1 to present16:13
rejonhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/APPS16:15
wpwrak;-))16:16
wpwraki'd quickly forget about HTML5 :) different world16:16
rejonits the concept16:17
rejonsimple set of rules to make embedded apps16:17
rejoni'm clearing off my notes too16:17
wpwrakthe people who actually do something on the nanonote will be geek enough to handle traditional environments16:17
wpwrakthe weaklings who need HTML5 won't even touch that platform16:17
wpwrakit's a different set of motivations that leads to different sets of tools and expectations16:18
rejonnot just thinking about nanonote16:18
rejonlonger term16:19
rejonwhat about no screen?16:19
rejonhow to make simple apps16:19
wolfspraulif you would write a new manual now, for a command line tool, what format would you use?16:19
rejonanyway16:19
wolfspraula) man16:19
wolfspraulb) info16:19
wolfspraulc) html16:19
wolfspraulok, we add this for werner:16:19
wolfsprauld) text16:19
wpwraklonger term, maybe. but that's hard to tell. and we don't need to drive it16:19
wpwrake) LaTeX16:19
rejonha16:20
rejonhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/APPS16:20
rejonupdated with note16:20
wolfspraulthat's what you use for your command line tools? should I check?16:20
wolfspraulI doubt you actually do that16:20
rejongoal: make a simple dev. environment to get the most developers to create apps16:20
rejonmight even add simple apps16:20
wolfspraulif you really face the actual decision, you will either use plain text nowadays, or if it does need some formatting/linking you will use simple hand-written html16:20
wpwrakmost of the time i use plain text and let someone else worry about formatting16:21
wolfspraulI would not write a new manual page in man or info anymore - why. makes no sense. html is simple and far more future proof.16:21
wpwraki used nroff (man) a few times16:21
wpwrakand yes, i do have a sizeable manual in latex, complete with a script that converts it into ascii :)16:21
wpwrak(lilo)16:21
kristianpaulso far the only app i noticed was developed for jsut nanonote was nanoterm (C?) and nanomap (Qt)16:22
wolfspraulyes that was 20 years ago16:22
wpwraki also did latex to rfc (internet standards), etc.16:22
wpwrakthe formats haven't changed much16:22
wpwrakand there is latex2html16:22
wpwrakrejon: i think you're trying too much to follow the buzz. those developers who hunger for fashionable tools will develop for iphone or android. they don't exist in our universe.16:24
rejonwpwrak, its just a wiki page :)16:24
rejoni have to clear out my ideas16:24
rejonget feedback16:24
wpwrakrejon: and if they wander here, they will be strangers. and hopefully act accordingly. (if not, i.e., if they come here with the expectations that everyone will bow to them, good riddance)16:24
rejonthat is the most that has been done on this *project* to date16:25
wpwrakrejon: we're still short a good SDK for traditional languages, though16:25
wpwrakeven developing in C is still messy. well, with openwrt. it's better with jlime.16:25
blogicwpwrak: how is coding with in owrt messy ?16:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: some man pages nowadays are just pre-formatted text. no longer nroff. and the text comes from  tool --help  or similar16:27
blogicdo you know the git-src thing ?16:27
rejonwolfspraul, where should we file issues against the qi and sharism website?16:27
rejonis there a project for that?16:27
rejonshould get some rigor to these projects with a real plan and roadmap16:27
wpwrakblogic: the makefile changes are more invasive. for jlime, all you usually need to do is change CC16:27
blogicok16:28
wolfspraulrejon: sorry still no RT16:29
rejonwolfspraul, the projects issue tracker is good enough16:29
rejonimo16:29
rejonjust use that16:29
wolfsprauluse it16:29
wolfsprauleven if we finally have rt, we can migrate issues16:30
rejonwolfspraul, i'm happy we met with those people about a router16:30
rejonthat helped me close out one of my ideas16:30
wolfspraulsure its' always good to meet people16:30
rejonselling a router on principle of fixing internet is PROFITEERING16:30
wpwrakblogic: also, i'm not sure if openwrt already has installation of packages into the cross-environment. opkg-host. someone may have said it had this now, but i never verified.16:30
rejondone. closed.16:30
wolfspraullet's meet with them again in 1 year and see where things stand16:30
blogicwpwrak: you mean into staging ?16:32
wpwrakblogic: well, such that new libraries get picked up. don;t remember the name.16:33
wpwrakblogic: i usually chicken out with openwrt when it gets beyond libc :)16:33
wpwrakup to and including libc, also openwrt only needs CC to be changed16:33
wpwrakbeyond that, things get messy16:34
wpwraki like the simplicity of the concept: "if you want to cross-compile, just specify the name of the new compiler" (or the toolchain, e.g., CROSS=... etc.)16:34
blogicok16:35
blogicyou will hit limits with several packages that way16:35
wpwrakthat's easy to convey. it's intuitively clear that *something* needs to change to make a cross-compilation. and CC is pretty obvious. (almost) all the rest are search paths inside CC and friends16:35
blogicbut ok... personaly preference i guess16:35
blogici will look at jlime anyhow16:36
wpwrakyes, i know. e.g., pkg-config spoils that dream :)16:36
blogicmaybe we can scavange some cool featires16:36
blogichehe16:36
wpwrakthe main problem of openwrt there is that toolchain and libraries (on the host) live in different hierarchies. if there were in the same hierarchy, things would work as smoothly as in jlime/OE16:37
blogicok16:37
blogici see what you mean16:37
blogici think several owrt folks would argue that the seperation is one of the cool features :D16:38
wpwrakeven things like pkg-config surprisingly often don't care. you may get the wrong hints from there, but it will still work (admittedly by luck and not by design)16:38
wpwrakyes, i know the arguments from the openwrt side :) but from a user's perspective, i think the preference is quite clear :)16:38
wpwrakwell, user = developer here16:38
blogicof course16:39
wpwrakit's the difference between a distribution-specific makefile and a universal makefile (with the allowance for changing CC or having CROSS)16:39
mthpersonally I prefer to specify target system (what GNU calls "host"...) and derive the compiler and pkg-config etc commands from that16:39
wpwrakmth: you mean via autotools ?16:40
wpwrak(card-carrying member of the autotools hater's guild here, fwiw)16:42
wpwrak(not as extreme as sebastien, though, who never leaves home without a backpack full of pointy sticks with a silver tip, though)16:43
mthI mean in general16:49
mthI'm not a fan of autotools either16:50
mthimo CC is for overriding the default compiler16:50
mthwhether you do native or cross builds16:51
mtha default cross compiler would be something like "mipsel-linux-cc", but if you want a different one or don't have the cross compiler in your $PATH you could use $CC to override it16:52
mthit makes sense to have more than one compiler per target, for example GCC and clang could co-exist16:52
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