#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-11-20

wolfspraulglad to see the story ended happily :-)00:05
whitequarkwhere's dvdk? haven't seen him lately01:56
whitequarkI owe him twenty euros. or maybe fifteen...01:56
wolfspraulwhitequark: did you get some UBB?02:11
wolfspraulwhitequark: are you a Twitter user? Can you make a tweet mentioning qi-hardware to see whether it shows up here? :-)02:12
whitequarkwolfspraul: yeah, they've arrived02:22
whitequarkhalf a year ago, approximately.02:23
whitequarkbut the whole bitcoin thing isn't quite easy, and I'm a lazu fucko.02:23
whitequarkhm, tweet02:24
whitequarkI could try02:24
whitequarkwolfspraul: ahem. you're the one I have been giving twitter advices all the day of 18th  :D02:26
whitequarkor was that night?..02:26
wolfspraulyes, and I'm learning...02:42
wolfspraulwhitequark: cool, it worked!02:42
wolfspraulI think we don't need the stuff in parentheses ( 13808 ... for Chrome )02:50
wolfspraulwhy is that pinging back to whitequark now? :-)03:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, how do yuo like jamendo as a source for free (i.e., reusable) music ? seems to have a much larger choice than ccmixter05:31
wolfspraulyes good05:32
wolfspraulI wish we have better browsing and download clients on the Ben, that'd be cool05:32
wpwrakhah, i'm happy enough if it can manage it with the pc :)05:33
wolfspraulthe browsing/discovery/listening interface on all those sites is bad, imho05:35
wpwrakyes, indeed. it's basically 1) rough search 2) try from 1-N05:37
wolfspraulhah, Jon would love this05:38
wolfspraulI go to "top 100 tracks"05:38
wolfspraulthen it says "License this music" (PRO)05:38
wolfspraulI don't want to license it, I want to listen to it, and share with whoever in any way I like :-)05:38
wolfspraulnow I click on 'buy' and I have to answer what it's for: internet, corporate use, ads, short film, documentary, movie, tv program, ...05:40
wolfspraulargh :-)05:40
wpwrakyeah, they suggest you need their pro service. but you can just search for music and filter out the NC/ND/etc. stuff anyway :)05:40
wpwrak"advanced search"05:40
wolfspraulbah, enough05:41
wolfspraulclosed the site :-)05:41
wolfspraulone day someone needs to scrape all truly free content from them and others, and bring to one really great free tunes site05:42
wolfspraulthe key is to make that place a great place for musicians to upload, experiment, share05:42
wolfspraullet's make a site that allows the creation of electronic music online05:42
wolfspraulthe whole music creation interface should be in the browser, and the music is naturally stored 'in the cloud' (=on the server), and freely available to anyone05:43
wpwrakyou could perhaps start a meta-index. collect all the keywords, tags, bpm, licensing terms, instruments, whatever, and link in more or less direct ways to the place with the music05:46
wpwrakand i somehow don't see that much potential for an "always-on" browser-based studio :)05:47
rjeffriesOn Twitter I posted a tweet to @qi-hardware wonder when or if it will show up here?06:21
rjeffriesguess I'll check baclog tomorrow06:23
DocScrutinizererr what? twitter "posts" showing up on IRC? :-o07:31
DocScrutinizerGod beware07:35
vladislavkorotnehi guys :) is there any way to change the usb device mode to mass storage etc. without having to rebuild the kernel? is there a way for it at all?09:18
wolfspra1lit's one of the big wish-list items09:23
wolfspra1lmake usb client easily switchable between networking, storage, usb-midi, soundcard, keyboard, mouse :-)09:23
wolfspra1lmaybe just a whole virtual usb hub with all this behind?09:23
kyakwolfspra1l: no more stuff in parentheses09:23
wolfspra1lbut I don't think as of right now much of this works09:23
wolfspra1lkyak: great!09:25
wolfspra1ldo you know why Ron Jeffries tweet did not show up? I think it's because he said he posted to #qi-hardware (with dash)09:26
wolfspra1lbut I think our account is just #qihardware (without dash)?09:26
kyaki dunno where he posted, but i don't see his post in web interface :)09:29
C-Keenwolfspra1l: to enable mass_storage (or file_storage) one needs to build and load the respective gadget module10:22
vladislavkorotnebtw i heard there is a web-interface for file upload in the latest image, however it seems i am either connecting to a wrong port/url or httpd/whatever isnt running :/10:23
wolfspra1lweb interface for file upload? what do you mean?10:24
wolfspra1lC-Keen: yes, but as I said I want a super easy way to just switch between devices10:24
wolfspra1lof course the devil is in the details, as always10:25
wolfspra1lfor example waht should usb-storage mount? maybe a loop device pointing back to a file?10:25
C-Keenwolfspra1l: as in a UI wrapper around modprobe and rmmod?10:25
vladislavkorotneupload files via web-browser instead of sftp (at least I remember kristianpaul said something like this)10:25
wolfspra1lC-Keen: as in something that actually makes sense for a regular user :-)10:25
wolfspra1lupload to where?10:25
vladislavkorotneto NanoNote10:26
vladislavkorotnedo i need to change anything except this http://d.pr/SiXm to build the NanoNote toolchain?10:49
C-Keenwolfspra1l: well IIRC mass_storage can also work on a whole partition so you could just reexport the root partition or the home partition or a special storage partition10:50
C-Keenwolfspra1l: but I agree there needs to be some kind of concept10:50
wolfspra1lreexport root partition?10:54
wolfspra1lwhat if both sides want to read or write at the same time?10:55
wolfspra1lmaybe you would need some kind of mode to switch, but that's ugly10:55
wolfspra1lneeds more thought, yes10:55
wolfspra1lbut in theory we are getting closer :-)10:55
wolfspra1lalso usb-midi would be another nice client/gadget type, now that we deal with Milkymist One so much10:55
vladislavkorotneyep :)10:56
vladislavkorotnebtw do the said gadget modules build in default configuration?10:57
wolfspra1lgood question, don't know :-)11:07
wolfspra1lI think this is the kernel config http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/latest/kernel.config11:07
wolfspra1lUSB_MIDI_GADGET is not set11:08
vladislavkorotnei see11:08
wolfspra1lmass storage also not I think11:08
vladislavkorotnei wonder how much it'll take to build the toolchain11:08
wolfspra1llike I said, several pieces missing to make this work out of the box11:09
wolfspra1lhave you tried the binaries first?11:09
vladislavkorotneof what?11:09
wolfspra1lof the toolchain11:09
vladislavkorotnei'm on a mac ;)11:09
wolfspra1lvirtualbox? :-)11:10
vladislavkorotne[*] Build the OpenWrt SDK                                               11:10
vladislavkorotne    [*] Build the OpenWrt based Toolchain  11:10
vladislavkorotneare these the only ones i need?11:10
wolfspra1lI don't know, haven't built anything in a while11:10
vladislavkorotnenoo, virtualbox is not what i would want to run constantly11:10
vladislavkorotnei have a separate Powermac that can run debian, but still i'll need to build it for powerpc and also it's slower than my core2duo macbook :P11:11
vladislavkorotnehope i have configured it right, have no spare 12 hours for a complete build lol11:17
vladislavkorotnehello everyone once again, I got an idea of an iTunes-like Sync Center for the NanoNote, but I don't know how to make GUI Linux apps, so is it ok if I write it in RealBasic? P15:02
kristianpaulas soon as can run in linux based systems..15:04
vladislavkorotnebut the RealStudio is not open D15:04
vladislavkorotnesomething stuck in the keyboard's ; key :/15:04
C-Keenthe nanonote is open hardware and will distribute only free software with it 15:05
vladislavkorotnei mean, i will make the REALBasic source open, but the app to compile it isnt open15:05
kristianpaulso is a trap !! :-)15:08
wpwrakvladislavkorotne: what other programming languages do you know ? Python ? C ? adding GUIs is often easier than you may expect. but BASIC is basically non-existent in the unix world15:09
kristianpaulany one had experience good coroutines library?15:11
kristianpauloops, forgot library part15:11
qwebirc61613in C?15:12
whitequarkand I guess for MIPS15:12
whitequarkdo you know if makecontext/setcontext work?15:12
whitequarkchecking that shouldn't be so hard15:13
vladislavkorotnewell, i'll start to make it for Mac and then porting it over will be just a matter of GUI :P15:13
vladislavkorotne*starts Terminal*15:13
vladislavkorotneSee ya later!15:13
whitequarkkristianpaul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setcontext15:13
whitequarkit's even in wiki15:13
whitequarkkristianpaul: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1696214/is-this-a-good-way-for-unconditional-jump/1696242#169624215:14
whitequarkeither of these should be fine as a test15:15
wpwrakvladkorotnev_awa: C is a good start. there are several choices there. the ones i know are Gtk (powerful but not so easy to get started with) and SDL (simple and friendly)15:16
wpwrakvladkorotnev_awa: there's also GeodeFX (reborn as MTK), which may be the easiest of all of them, but it's a rare bird15:16
vladkorotnev_awa@wpwrak GTK doesn't work on Mac/Windows. Probably a Windows/Linux alternative would be Qt. But Nothing's better for Mac than a native ui :)15:17
whitequarkvladkorotnev_awa: gtk does work on Windows15:17
whitequarkie pidgin15:17
whitequarknot sure about Mac, but it works with X server. Not good, through15:17
vladkorotnev_awaMac has X15:18
vladkorotnev_awabut it's sorta weird15:18
whitequarkX is never good.15:18
whitequarkit's freaking weird by design.15:18
wpwrakvladkorotnev_awa: Qt is C++. if C++ is an option, you also have wxWidgets, which is a popular choice for cross-platform development15:19
whitequarkwpwrak: last time I've seen them, wxwidgets looked like tk15:20
whitequarkah, that's for ben15:21
wpwrakwhitequark: i try to avert my eyes quickly when i see C++ ;-)15:21
vladkorotnev_awaCould anyone please send the Ben symbol here? :P15:21
whitequark , NanoNote 15:21
vladkorotnev_awawhitequark: thanks15:21
kristianpaulwhitequark: found this http://www.xmailserver.org/pcl.html :-)15:26
kuribaswhitequark: I have a book about programming in X, and it all looks pretty logical (for its time).15:49
kuribasI would use the EFL (enlightenment.org) for programming.  I am adapting the current widget theme for a small screen.15:50
kuribasIt's open source, and it's also made for embedded use.15:51
kuribasAnd it works on several backends, the framebuffer, SDL, X, etc...15:52
vladkorotnev_awaTake that, iTunes! http://d.pr/N29l15:57
vladkorotnev_awado you like it? :)15:59
vladkorotnev_awakristianpaul: thx :)16:00
whitequarkkristianpaul: looks good16:07
whitequarkkuribas: X is a collection of badly made modules which are barely glued together with a duct tape and weren't updated from 1986 or so16:08
whitequarkit may have some good but entirely theoretical concepts, which are completely unapplicable in the world as it is, with 3D graphics, compositing, and stuff16:09
whitequarkand it _does_ work bad in practice16:09
kyakwhitequark: do you use it right now? :)16:15
whitequarkkyak: X? yes. and I hate it. Every time I switch to my WinXP in a VM it feels like it's three times faster to respond to mouse movement16:22
whitequarkcan't wait for working Wayland in Debian16:22
vladkorotnev_awais there mDNSResponder for NanoNote?16:31
vladkorotnev_awathat's the overall concept: http://d.pr/4EjE16:31
vladkorotnev_awalike it? :P16:32
kristianpaulhttp://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2011-November/014486.html Worth a quick read, altought the thread topic is education i think it fit in our goals a bit too16:40
kyakwhitequark: my point is, that X has no alternative at the moment. And blaming X won't help.17:02
kyakand it wil be really funny when people won't get what they expect from Wayland17:02
Aylawhat do you mean?17:03
kyaki mean, what will be the next subject for blaming?17:05
Aylait's not a problem of blaming17:07
kyakyeah, it's a problem of "colored carpet" which is Linux17:08
AylaX is too old in its design17:08
kyaknot this talk again...17:08
Aylayou don't think it's true?17:08
Aylathe same goes to ALSA for instance17:08
lars_and posix! ;)17:20
kuribasIt's funny, the book I am reading states: "_Xlib_ has, as of this writing, been stable for several months, and is expected to have a useful lifetime of three to five years."17:26
kuribasIt's from 198817:26
lars_and people have only stoped using xlib in the last 2-3 years17:29
kuribasBut reading about it, it doesn't seem so badly designed, and you don't need twenty extention modules on an embedded device.17:29
kuribasIt's mostly gnome/gtk which is bloated.17:29
wpwrakkuribas: yeah. for most things, you don;t even know X is there. most of the complains are about some ancient things that are indeed hardly used anymore. but then, they don't get in the way either. it's kinda like digging up some corpses and then complaining that some people in this city have a really foul smell, and thus concluding they all stink.18:14
wpwraki don't know all that much about X internals, but i've seen this for years in TCP. every few months, some brilliant chap dreams up some "vastly improved" replacement (sic !) for TCP. and they almost get rid of some "unnecessary complexity".18:16
kristianpaulsuck less fever? :-)18:19
lars_the problem with X is it still works good _enough_18:19
kristianpaullike my procmail :)18:20
wpwrakwith most of these proposals, you already know why they can't work when you finish reading the paper. quite often, they make assumptions about the surrounding world that aren't true. particularly in the ATM area, a lot of interesting megalomaniac ideas (along with TCP replacements) have been hatched.18:21
viricI agree with lars_ 18:21
viriclars_: but avoiding xlib, you mean, using libxcb?18:21
lars_a lot of projects are using libxcb these days18:21
viriclet me see how much of them I have18:22
lars_also toolkits have stopped using XWindows for everything except the main window18:22
wpwraklars_: it seems that things have pretty much quieted down. there was a new feature frenzy some time ago, with 3D and multimedia, but you don't hear much excitement about that now. seems that they found designs and protocols that work, and have placed suitable rugs to hide any ugliness under.18:23
virici only have toolkits using libxcb18:23
viricbut my libX11 depends on libxcb :)18:24
whitequarkX is now definitely obsolete18:24
whitequarkit does not serve its original purpose18:24
whitequarkat all18:25
whitequarkit's just a thin layer that gets a pixmap on one side of pipe, puts it at the other18:25
whitequarkand we don't actually need all that arcane madness to handle the simple task18:25
lars_wpwrak: and as a protocol for window managers18:25
wpwraklars_: yup. big feature.18:26
whitequarklars_: well, yes, I will miss my awesome WM a bit18:26
whitequarkit has been a real pain to make a sane interface on top of X protocol, through18:26
whitequarkfor the awesome devs I mean18:27
lars_whitequark: but you can't simply replace X with something else, because you won't have any working apps18:29
lars_except you provide a compatibility layer18:30
whitequarklars_: you have Qt and GTK18:34
whitequarkand writing a backend for both of them is a doable task18:34
whitequarklater you can get something like Xnest (or Xvfb, or whatever) to render to your replacement, but it's second priority18:34
lars_you are quite lucky in the case of X, because not many apps are using it directly18:35
kuribasX windows was meant to be low level, even fom the start.18:35
whitequarkand that's a reason for them not using it directly, indeed18:35
whitequark*there is18:35
lars_replacing libc for example would be a bit harder18:35
whitequarkit was done, several times18:35
whitequarkyou have uclibc which works for most apps, at least18:36
whitequarkmaybe something else18:36
lars_uclibc has the same api as libc18:36
whitequarkah, in this sense18:36
lars_well uclibc is a libc18:36
whitequarkyou may as well replace posix with winapi18:37
whitequarkheh, at least you'll get real async io.18:37
wpwraklars_: (not many using it directly) which of course also means that they don't care whether they run on X or anything else. nice logic. it's the one politicians use :)18:37
whitequarkwpwrak: in this case it isn't anything bad18:38
wpwrak"we will introduce full-body x-ray scanners at airports. nobody, except for those few who use them, will be affected by them."18:39
whitequarkthey're not x-ray afaik (or else everyone will be affected, won't them?) that's some kind of far IR, at least that's what a reference says about terahertz range18:41
whitequarkdoes not change the meaning, through.18:41
wpwrakoh, i just picked x-ray as a technology you wouldn't want to have there for obvious reasons. the others have other issues, and are harder to explain :)18:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: rtems patches: added new UART and IRQ rearrangement, plus include fix (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/58da15e19:36
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1/tools/m1nor: flash a file to M1 NOR partition selected by the file name (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6dc617420:03
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1/tools/README: m1nor description (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/ba5a39220:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1nor: "pld reconfigure" at then end, to properly exit fjmem (suggested by Michael Walle) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/bf6c20723:23
--- Mon Nov 21 201100:00

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