#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2011-11-19

wolfspraulgood morning01:18
Action: DocAvalanche moos evilly at wolfspraul02:46
DocAvalanchegot an offer for a gta04, courtesy anonymous sponsor02:47
DocAvalanchefun detail, it's not THAT much away from what I specified for GTA04 when GTA04 was my baby02:48
DocAvalanchetoo bad those chinese idiots were so greedy02:49
wpwrakjust when you're about to sign at STE ? :)02:52
DocAvalancheWe could've even outperformed Nokia02:52
wpwrakoutrunning the dead is easy :)02:52
DocAvalanchewhat's the link from STE to GTA04?02:52
wolfspraulI cannot motivate myself about anything gta04 except watching it from the distance and trying to stay open-minded about it.02:53
wpwrakwait .. you mean someone offered you a device ? or a project to make one ?02:53
wpwrakah, the golden delicious thing. i see02:53
wolfspraulbut one thing is good - they do *everything* differently than I would, that means we try more different things in parallel :-)02:54
DocAvalancheGoldelico Nick can do a jig of joy if I find some hours at weekend to deal with that shower radio resurrection02:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: so they're doing it exactly like openmoko did ? :)02:54
wolfspraulhow can this path ever lead to anything? argh02:54
wolfspraulah no02:54
DocAvalanche*I* was doomed ro use that case, *he* could've used any case he could find at free market02:55
wpwrakfinding cases may not be that easy. particularly if you depend on them to be available for a while :)02:55
wolfspraulI think we built up quite some knowledge by now02:56
wolfspraulwe know how professional Taiwan oem/odm industrial and mechanical design shops work02:56
DocAvalanchewpwrak: WUT?02:56
wolfspraulwe know how hackerspaces like raumfahrtagentur work02:56
wolfspraulwe know how the shanzhai/shenzhen market works02:56
wolfspraulwerner as usual did awesome and eye-opening work on details like scanning, counterweight, etc.02:57
DocAvalanchewpwrak: buy $RANDOM_NOKIA_CASE  by the dozen02:57
wolfspraulI'm very optimistic that we get the mechanical problem under control.02:57
DocAvalanchewpwrak: tell me how much is a spare GTA02 case on free market02:58
DocAvalanchehushing on design quality of GTA02 case02:59
wolfspraulDocAvalanche: *everything* they do is wrong, imho :-)02:59
wolfspraulbut that means they must have some system of thoughts that is entirely different to my experiences - more power to them03:00
DocAvalancheyeah, ack. but they deliver03:00
wolfspraulI agree with you, I can source plastic parts for high-volume western brand phones easily, from 1 to thousands to more03:00
wolfspraulDocAvalanche: they deliver what?03:00
wolfspraula few boards that will barely work after years and are sold for 666 EUR?03:01
DocAvalancheand eventually sb is going to sue blow them outa the water, for not complying XXX03:01
wolfspraula speed of bugfixing and software maintenance that makes them go backwards with every month that passes03:01
wolfspraulmeanwhile phone prices are dropping like a stone and investment money retreats from this entire category03:01
wolfspraulI truly with them all the best, but from my perspective I'd just lean back, sip a coffee or have a beer, and think :-)03:02
wolfspraulall the stuff we've seen03:02
DocAvalancheI'm d'accord but there are manics that keep stuff going03:02
wolfspraulmoto ezx03:03
wolfspraulroad gmbh03:03
wolfspraulpalm pre03:03
DocAvalancheI'll take my tranquilizers now, prepare me coffee and popcorn, and then wait and see03:03
DocAvalanchewhile STE will force me to get up at 6:30 ne3xt week03:04
wolfspraulmy plan is to continue to build the pieces necessary for a profitable manufacturing business03:04
wolfsprauland once we have that we can build anything, small things first, then bigger ones.03:04
wolfsprauloh, there's also the huge changes in the soc industry03:04
wolfspraul30% of mobile socs are custom-made now, and growing03:05
wolfspraul#2 is qualcomm03:05
wpwrakDocAvalanche: do they offer other incentives ? like free waterboarding in the lunch break ? :)03:05
DocAvalanchedunno yet03:05
wolfspraulDocAvalanche: the chips you work on, what customers/products do they end up with?03:05
wolfspraul(I mean you work on at STE)03:05
DocAvalancheseen shivering smokers outside the main entrance :-(((03:06
DocAvalanchewolfspraul: 70% of world production03:06
wolfspraulLTE baseband?03:06
DocAvalanchewhich feels kinda "boooh ey!"03:06
wolfspraulon the phone or base station side?03:06
DocAvalancheyep LTE baseband03:07
DocAvalanchelike USB sticks03:07
wolfspraulhuh? you mean sold as modules?03:07
wolfspraulintegrated with the AP or not?03:07
DocAvalanchelost me03:07
DocAvalancheacme-shit builds an USB dongle for LTE, with a STE modem in it03:08
wolfspraulyeah we lost each other :-) just trying to understand which chips that is03:08
wpwrakwe now have a mole at analog devices, soon one at ST-E, let's see what other companies we still have to infiltrate ...03:08
wolfspraulDocAvalanche: so you got that gta04 already? for free?03:09
DocAvalanchenot got it yet, got the offer to receive one, and "get inclided to inner circle" whatever that means03:11
wolfspraulbut above you say "they deliver"03:12
DocAvalanchewpwrak: you seen the schematics?03:12
wolfspraulso far they deliver promises03:12
DocAvalancheyeah, gambling high03:13
DocAvalanchealmost at padora level03:13
wpwraknope. haven't been tracking it.03:13
wolfspraulsome things are so crazy I cannot process, did you see the mail from the guy who wants to die as a soldier of New Poseidia on the Om list?03:13
DocAvalanchedang, my pdf views always segfault after a few days, a cheers to KDE403:14
wolfspraulwpwrak: almost your length level! :-)03:15
DocAvalancheOM list? is that the folder tagged "12423 unread" on my kmail?03:15
wolfspraulDocAvalanche: it seems OpenPandora managed to secure a 350K EUR investment from their community, from a bunch of private investors via simple contract03:17
wolfspraulthat's quite an amazing achievement03:17
wpwraklovely. that's what i call determination ! we're such wimps.03:18
DocAvalanchefun stuff about calypso though03:18
wolfspraulafter years of unbelievably incompetence, and ripping off many of their customers (many of whom are still waiting to receive anything after 2+ years)03:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: you should feel envious :-)03:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: and a little embarrassed :)03:19
wolfspraulbut the fact that the community investment worked is amazing, if it works...03:19
wolfspraulright now of course, more promises...03:19
DocAvalancheI'm gonna sell 50 "I AM RICH" apps next week ;-P03:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: and guilty. because you're not giving the community a better, more sincere project to invest in03:20
wolfspraulI'm grateful for every bit I learn and moving forward quite happily. takes some time to solve such complex puzzles.03:20
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes! That I agree with.03:20
wolfspraulI meant what I wrote above as a compliment.03:20
wolfspraulcommunity investment could be a very good way to go, but watch out, OP right now is deep in promise land03:21
wolfsprauland they have a track record of breaking 99% of their promises for 3 years already03:21
wolfspraulso that will all change in January now? hmm... :-)03:21
wolfspraulbut I like the idea of small community investments, with private contracts03:21
DocAvalancheI bet I could come up with a "project" to collect 5 mio preorders in a month or two, just because people know I'd never do that03:21
wpwrakdid they aim for 350 kEUR ? or was that just what they managed to collect ?03:22
wolfspraulfinance the next run03:22
Action: DocAvalanche feels like scientology founder now03:22
wolfspraulfirst they hire some new helpers etc. to try to cleanup some of the huge mess they are dragging behind03:22
wolfspraulI think it will end like everything else they did before, but anyway.03:22
wolfspraulthe money is real, it will be spent03:22
DocAvalancheI wish I could spend it - for hookers, steak, and cocaine03:23
wpwrakbut where did the 350 kEUR figure come from ? what that what they set out to collect from the beginning ? or was that simply what they received in the allotted time ?03:23
wolfspraulthat was as much as they needed per their calculation to finance the next run03:24
wpwrakDocAvalanche: you're applying at the wrong places for that. try an investment bank :)03:24
wolfsprauland then they sent out contracts to community, and eventually had enough investors03:24
wpwrakexcellent. so maybe they could even have gotten more.03:24
wolfspraulof course these investors will loose their money, but there is so much money flying around, and someone has to spend it03:24
wpwrakso, how much do you calculate Milkymist will need ? :)03:24
wolfspraulso why not OpenPandora...03:24
DocAvalanchemeh, I just build up a story about the incredible new STE module, that comes with source of LTE stack courtesy me, just I need 10E7 ¬ to accomplish03:25
wpwrak's probably a good train to jump on03:25
wolfspraulyeah :-) depends on sales forecast, right?03:25
wolfspraulonly conceptually03:25
wolfspraulthere is extremely little to learn for me in OpenPandora03:25
wpwrakthe idea is new. there does seem to be money around. others may just wake up and get interested in the next opportunity.03:26
wolfspraulthese investors will all loose their money03:26
wolfspraulI'm not interested in such a project.03:26
wolfspraulyes, if it is an opportunity03:26
wpwrakwell, we don't need to copy that part :)03:26
Action: DocAvalanche burps03:26
wolfspraulwe need a sales forecast, strong customer, imho03:26
wpwraknot interested in community-based financing ? or not interested in a financing a doomed project ?03:26
wolfspraulno news :-)03:26
wolfspraulone by one03:27
DocAvalanche>> Bei mir hat sich ein Sponsor gemeldet, der u.a. Dir ein Board stiften möchte :) Sobald wir neue Board aus der Produktion bekommen.<<03:27
wolfspraulOpenPandora has potential I think. it's not open hardware though. THe execution is just atrocious.03:28
wolfspraulI am very interested in community-based financing.03:28
wolfspraulbut it has to work, for the investors03:28
wpwraki'm not talking about openpandora. i don't care what they do :)03:28
DocAvalancheI tend to trust Nick, but who the F* is that sponsor???03:28
wolfspraul'doomed project' again depends on sales, demand03:28
wpwrakand do you believe milkymist is something that can work for them ?03:28
wolfspraulwe need to figure out where is demand, and for what03:29
wolfspraulI have no strong idea on demand, size of market right now.03:29
wpwrakare are you already certain it will fail, and you'd rather have it fail with just your money ?03:29
wpwraks/are are/or are/03:29
wolfspraulwhat is 'it'?03:29
wolfspraulfree technology cannot fail, it stays around03:29
wolfspraulonly a business can fail to generate profits03:29
wolfspraulcorrect that needs customers who want to buy03:30
wolfspraulso... back to sales03:30
wpwrakplan b would be to be a bit bolder, and ask for sponsors. make no promise about returns. maybe even exclude them from the beginning.03:30
DocAvalanchemaybe I'd enjoy this convo when we'd sit together in that bagels caffe in TPE - on IRC though...03:30
wpwraki didn't like the bagels conversation so much. i feel naked without a beer in my hand :)03:32
wolfspraulafter/if/when we make open hardware work, we'll get back together for sure :-)03:32
wolfsprauland 2 beer for werner03:32
DocAvalanchewtf is "inner circle" ???03:33
DocAvalancheI got those droogies all mad when mentioning I might figure to port maemo to GTA04 ;-P03:34
DocAvalancheit's depressing the best integration of messaging, GSM calls, SIP VoIP, skype, and contacts, is still with some close source shit Nokia threw over the wall03:37
DocAvalancheand yeah, you bet you never fix the flaws this shot comes with03:38
wolfspraulthey didn't like the idea of you porting maemo to gta04?03:38
DocAvalancheshit, but meh03:38
wpwraki think smartphones are currently too much under pressure. not a good place to be with open hardware.03:38
wolfspraul(not that it wouldn't be far too much work...)03:38
wolfspraulfully agree03:39
wpwrakopenmoko was there in time, before the frenzy began. but didn't deliver03:40
wolfspraulknowing what I know now, it was a mission impossible from day 103:40
wpwrakthen the elephants entered the playground03:40
wpwraki do't know if it was all that impossible03:41
wolfspraulthey entered many years before03:41
DocAvalanchewe got now: SHR, QtMoko, Maemo, Meego, Buntkuh/gentoo/younameit, and except of Maemo nuttin is ready for primetime, and Maemo is only working with blobs03:41
wolfspraulboth Apple and Android (Danger)03:41
wpwrakit would have been difficult to upgrade the telephony specs, but the rest wasn't too far off03:41
wolfspraultotally impossible03:41
wpwrakwhy ?03:41
wolfspraulyou need continuous investments over several hundred million USD, for years03:42
wpwraki don't think it could have reached such volumes. but a choice for a sector interested in openness, yes03:43
DocAvalanchemeh, you need a community that'S not changing focus when it comes to the last 10% that are annoying and boring to do03:43
wolfspraulI think we can compare an iphone/android to a Boeing 777 or Airbus 38003:43
DocAvalancheand that's really *all* you need03:43
wolfspraullet's say you want to be the third competitor next to Boeing & Airbus03:43
wolfspraulhow do you do that?03:43
wolfspraulthere are strategic government backed efforts towards that goal in Brazil, Russia, China, probably others03:44
wpwrakyou make slightly different planes. embraer are quite successful with that :)03:44
wolfspraulso let's say infinite money, infinite time horizon03:44
wolfspraulbut still hard!03:44
wolfspraulthe Chinese started with airplane maintenance shops03:44
wolfspraulfor many years03:44
wolfspraulthen tires03:45
wolfspraulthen more and more parts03:45
wolfspraullots of companies03:45
wolfspraulall backed by essentially unlimited government credit lines03:45
wpwrakwell, that's the chinese approach :)03:45
Action: DocAvalanche wants an unlimeted personal credit line03:45
wolfspraulluckily we are far more flexible, we don't have to try to chase after or copy iphone or android phones03:46
wolfspraulif we really wanted to do that, we need 5-10 years and hundreds of millions of USD if not more03:46
wolfsprauland by the time we are done, phones cost 20 USD and Apple makes their money elsewhere03:46
wolfspraulbut definitely, Openmoko was doomed the day it was born03:47
wolfspraulafter some years in this hardware business, I think I understand the trajectories a little better03:47
DocAvalancheI don't give a shit about where $fruit makes money, nor do I care about Balmer's deao stick03:47
wolfspraulfinancing, volume, yield, returns, innovation, risk, etc.03:47
DocAvalanchewolfspraul: funny you say that now, wasn't that sth I called you with a really foul mood sometime 00:45 in the night?03:48
wolfspraulbut I think Openmoko helped a lot of people learn a lot :-)03:48
wolfspraulDocAvalanche: ahh :-)03:48
wpwrakyou're comparing apples and oranges. of course there's no point to try to compete in the race-to-the-bottom segment. but you can try to establish yourself in a niche where margins are better.03:49
wolfspraulI have no problem admitting I know nothing and learn from the masters like you.03:49
wolfspraulhard to beat your experience with a clear mind over how many years??? :-)03:49
wpwrakbut also that becomes impossible if the whole market is already happily in race-to-the-bottom mode03:49
wolfspraulsorry indeed, I was a clueless software guy back then...03:49
wolfspraulmake hardware03:49
wolfsprauldidn't work03:49
wolfspraulyes all agree03:50
wolfspraulI don't think it's such a bad 'race to bottom', I think the investments are made carefully and being recouped.03:50
wolfspraulthe race to bottom segment is in greater China and they will jump ship as fast as they jumped onboard03:50
wolfspraulno need to spend our brain cells on them03:50
wolfspraulAsus is already denying discontinuing Android tablets :-)03:51
wolfspraullook at Amazon, they are far more professional. when will they have a phone? maybe 1-1.5 years from now?03:51
wolfspraulbut indeed, we cannot compete with that. they have lots of pieces in place that cost billions in financing to build up.03:51
wpwrakthe problem are the copycats. once a product category has been commodized, they kill the margins03:53
DocAvalanchewpwrak: (niche) not at all, see zoom-II, see dedicated inventory reader, rollerblade servant cashiers, whatnot03:54
wolfspraulnot sure. where do you see that specifically?03:54
wpwrakbefore openmoko, i had a project with philips. there, i heard about their little problems with making DVD players. what would you think about getting into DVD (or Blueray) players, say, today ? nice margins, eh ? ;-)03:54
wolfspraulDocAvalanche: say that again? you see business opportunities in those spaces or not?03:54
wpwrakback than, it was just about to collapse03:54
DocAvalancheI bet if we'd have followed my idea to go for a SAT-phone back when, OM was still alive. Well not really as I entered too late03:55
wpwrakand it's happening with the phones now. the cheapsters are already trying to erode the android market03:55
wolfspraulok but are the dvd & blueray makers profitable now? have they already recouped their investments and just running cash cows now? I think most companies are controlled, otherwise they will not be around too long.03:55
wpwrakthey're not quite competitive enough, but that's only a question of time03:55
DocAvalanchewolfspraul: wait a minute, let me dig up a URL03:56
wolfspraulDocAvalanche: you mean a more targeted device? yes, today I would agree. but... I can also tell you it would have been flat out impossible, 100% impossible, to communicate this product within the Taiwanese management and financing environment.03:56
DocAvalanchealso within EE03:56
wolfspraulthe culture is consistent :-)03:57
wolfspraulit's not wrong03:57
wpwrakyes, there is the problem. they like big volume because they're used to compete on price03:57
wolfspraulthe left and right hand actually do the same thing :-)03:57
wolfspraulthey absolutely cannot comprehend ideas like those, and then they cannot execute on them understandably03:57
wolfspraulI would not spend 1h of my time anymore to break through this or somehow unite or explain or whatever.03:58
wolfspraulsome things are best kept as they are03:58
DocAvalanche2k bucks03:59
DocAvalancheit's a tank04:00
DocAvalanchefor *real* work, and for real freaks04:00
DocAvalancheAnd I bet my back we'd have sold as many of those as we did on GTA02, just at 7 times the price04:01
wolfspraul1600-2000 USD, Korean company04:01
wolfspraulyes it's possible and a worthwhile endeavor, but you need a strong gut on the marketing side, and it may fail still as a business04:02
wolfspraulbut the pricing and all is right, product, etc.04:02
wolfspraulnow - how many can they sell?04:02
DocAvalancheand without the decay in sells04:02
wolfspraulI challenge you to find a Taiwanese company that can pull something like this off.04:02
wolfspraulit just doesn't work and will not happen for a variety of cultural reasons, extremely unlikely imho.04:03
wolfspraulhow many sales can they generate?04:03
DocAvalanchemeh, I'd rather rely on goldelico than any korean fools to pull that off04:03
wolfspraulso sales? how many? a few hundred?04:04
wolfsprauldo they have potential customers in advance?04:04
wolfspraulis this product made for a big customer first, then put on the general market later?04:04
DocAvalancheyou easily can get a 10k sales for McDonals one week, and another 5k for Ikea to do their field material tracking next week04:04
wolfspraulyes but you have to have that contract first04:04
DocAvalancheno, you have to have the product first, then offer to customers that didn't even know they need it04:05
DocAvalancheask mrmoku, when I posted that URL he went "dang, couldn't you tell that last week?! a customer searched for sth like that"04:06
wolfspraulsome Apple stories seem to have gotten into you already :-)04:06
wolfspraulI am very interested in this kind of approach, and totally agree with you. But my next question would be about their potential customers and how it got started.04:07
wolfspraulI doubt they just make it because the CEO likes it just like that, Steve Jobs style.04:07
wolfspraulit's possible of course, but I doubt it and that would be my next question to find out about.04:07
DocAvalancheprolly not04:07
DocAvalancheno idea how to pull that off at business side04:08
DocAvalanchebut then OTOH OM wasn't great at that in the end of the day either, eh?04:08
wolfspraulOm was chasing a dream, I think we were quite good at that, no? :-)04:08
DocAvalancheWE were, but mgmt/VC was insane I heard04:09
wolfspraulI think all fine, worth trying.04:10
wolfspraulwritten off in a heartbeat04:10
DocAvalanchec'mon you offered me to buy a CMU200 and get it with me to Germany in Nov, and in Jan I got set free04:10
DocAvalanchethere has to be something terribly odd going on at capital side/management04:11
wolfspraulare the jumps in your dreams always logical?04:11
DocAvalancheof course not, that's why I'm not billyboy gates though I'm for sure more competent than him04:12
DocAvalanchethe essential trick is to find *good* business lizards04:13
DocAvalanchewho optimize for *you* and your dream to come true, rather than shareholder value04:14
wpwrakDocAvalanche: wolfspraul seems to be in one of his defeatist periods, so he has an argument for everything why it can't work. rememeber #1024 ? :)04:15
wolfspraulah wait, I have a practical question04:19
wolfspraulI have a meeting with some Tizen guy lined up04:19
wolfspraulwhat is your take on Tizen?04:20
Action: DocAvalanche loves practical Q04:20
wolfspraulmore practical than useless stories of the past... :-)04:20
wolfspraulI need to be *positive* with the Tizen guy :-)04:20
DocAvalancheI heard they killed my GTA04 project, or was that some other shitty company?04:20
DocAvalancheaaah Tizen, sorry04:21
wolfspraulwhat's the latest in maemo/meego n900/n950/nWhatever land?04:21
DocAvalanchewell, I think they needed another name, to segregate from meego-harmattan04:21
wolfsprauland : where is the upside?04:21
wolfspraulsorry I cannot follow on all this twists :-) but... what's the most positive thing you could expect from Tizen?04:22
wolfspraulwhere could it go? what products? what community? what financing?04:22
DocAvalanchelatest is N9 with meego-harmattan which actually is a maemo with meego skin04:22
DocAvalanchefor unclear reasons they slaughtered meego and created tizen. No idea if it's all the same, or yet another insane change of horses during middle of race04:24
wolfspraulthe N9 is the one they only introduce in carefully selected markets so it cannot take off, right?04:24
DocAvalancheall I can tell is meego imploded with a bang that's been louder than anything else I heard last few years04:25
wolfspraulwhere are the maemo/meego community masses streaming to now?04:25
DocAvalancheyep, N9 isn't sold globally04:25
DocAvalancheso they don't want to "canibalize" their win crap04:25
wolfspraulwell yeah, I looked at the markets and saw some sinister attempt at making it fail :-)04:25
wolfspraulit's so obvious, the managers behind should line up for bigger and better things in politics or banking04:26
DocAvalanche(masses) idling in zonbie state at #meego X-P04:26
wolfspraulanybody excited about Tizen?04:26
DocAvalanchenot afaik04:26
wpwrakso what's that "tizen guy" ? a developer ? a device manufacturer ? intel ?04:27
DocAvalanchenobody got the rationale behind it, and it's actually hard to see why we need to abandon meego now and what's the shiny thing, the tasty cookie on top of tizen04:27
DocAvalancheit's probably just another "let's kick this out, it smells like Nokia"04:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: wait, need to check. Jon's work...04:28
DocAvalanchewho's johncylee?04:29
wolfspraulI'm just trying to find out about Tizen a bit more, since it's completely 100% out of my scope04:29
DocAvalanche(found him at #openmoko-devel today) :-D04:29
wolfspraulI bought a Nokia N770 with great passion many years ago, but lost interest quickly because it was clear Nokia was not serious about it. that was it for me in that direction, then I joined Om next :-)04:30
wolfspraulI don't think I missed much at anything that came past the N77004:30
wolfspraulwpwrak: I think it's the CEO of a Chinese Android service provider04:32
wolfspraulI could imagine a swift "jump ship" movement of money-loosing Chinese Android manufacturers soon, maybe he wants to explore alternatives...04:32
wolfspraulall in motion, nothing specific, not even the meeting04:33
wolfspraulbut I do my homework on Tizen at least04:33
DocAvalanche/join #tizen04:35
DocAvalancheCBA, they lost all credibility for me04:35
wpwrakwhat's an android service provider ?04:36
wpwrakapp-store ? :)04:36
wpwraksw developer ?04:36
DocAvalancheor that :-D04:36
DocAvalanchethe hard moments in life are when you work for a week to set up a topic minutes list for a community distro meeting for one week, and then *nobody* shows up at that meeting, not even the ones who suggested and agreed upon it04:39
DocAvalancheso I felt like going out getting booze, but I seem to not feel any better04:39
wpwrakso yuo set up a meeting ?04:40
DocAvalanchenah, I only have tried to make the today's meeting more efficient that last week's where we missed some topics list04:41
DocAvalancheI however pushed for maemo-CSSU Stable first release and hoped for Testing release rev17 being out since 4 days today04:42
wolfspraulwpwrak: in China there's a whole bunch of companies helping manufacturers make Android work on their devices04:53
wolfspraulsuch as our oxlab friends in Taiwan :-)04:53
wolfspraulthey can make real money right now, because the manufacturers are lost (of course), having been used to 'installing' stuff from Microsoft, and now thrown back to a 'git clone' level, they need someone bridge the gap from 'git clone' to 'install'04:54
wolfspraulthat's a mad race to the bottom indeed04:55
wolfspraulyou could make a herd study on all this :-)04:55
wolfsprauldoes anybody know zyth's email address?05:06
wolfspraulhe tried to reach me a few days ago on irc, but now the contact broke off and I cannot find an email address in my archives... oh well...05:07
wpwrak(android installer) sounds like fun :)05:27
wolfspraulkyak: ah hi :-) when someone tweets about qihardware - will it be routed into the channel here?07:26
kyakwolfspraul: it is routed here! :)07:26
kyakyou can try @mentioning07:27
kyakwolfspraul: http://www.flickr.com/photos/zyth_2011/07:27
kyakperhaps you could PM him or find his e-mail there07:27
kyakand everybody in the channel can tweet, too07:29
wolfspraulyes, perfect. let's see how this goes...07:32
vladislavkorotnehey guys08:30
vladislavkorotnewhat's up?08:30
vladislavkorotnei have a problem here08:30
vladislavkorotneonce i had some spare time today (finally!) I decided to play around with my NanoNote that was left on the desk in the beginning of september. First thing i did is changed the skin of Gmenu2x. then I pressed X to go back to the main menu, pressed L to switch to the next tab, but instead the screen just went black. When i powered it on, it booted OpenWRT as usual, but Gmenu2x didnt appear. Just black screen with backlight. Is this just becaus08:32
wolfspraulso... was there a reboot somewhere?08:40
vladislavkorotneit turned off on its own08:40
vladislavkorotneand still, after 5 minutes connected to usb, gmenu2x refuses to start08:41
wolfspraulso it boots, you see the kernel messages and openwrt, and then screen goes black?08:41
wolfspraultry ctrl-alt-f1 .. f508:42
vladislavkorotnedoesnt help08:42
vladislavkorotnewell, if i press them BEFORE gmenu2x is supposed to appear, i get the console08:42
vladislavkorotnebut then screen goes blank08:42
wolfspraulmaybe just the screen saver? press the shift key or so to see whether it comes back on?08:43
vladislavkorotneit doesnt08:43
wolfspraulI had the impression I think in the 08-27 image that the screen blanking was way too fast, for my taste08:43
vladislavkorotnei use the one i built in may :P08:43
vladislavkorotnewhen i had ubifs problems08:43
wolfspraulif you have no original data on the device, how about reflashing to the new image?08:43
wolfsprauloh, I see [self-built]08:43
vladislavkorotnei have no linux machine at hand :(08:44
vladislavkorotnecan i reflash on a mac? are there any binaries for the tools i need?08:45
wolfspraulbetter not, but I don't know08:47
vladislavkorotnemaybe i can disable gmenu2x over ssh?08:47
vladislavkorotnelooking closer at the logs reveals a FS problem :/08:51
vladislavkorotneare there binaries of tools needed for flashing for debian?09:14
wolfspraulyes I think so09:40
wolfspraulin fact we have debian packages, no?09:40
vladislavkorotneyep i found em09:40
qi-bot[commit] Ayla: Removed per-application volume setting. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/c7af4b113:50
qi-bot[commit] Ayla: fbcon: use kstrtoint instead of deprecated function simple_strtoul. (jz-3.1) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/1ad417b14:41
vladislavkorotnehello everyone14:42
vladislavkorotnewont having only 88% free on rootfs cause any problems?14:42
vladislavkorotneor, can i create a swap file instead of swap partition?14:44
vladislavkorotneand, sorry for disturbing  how to format sd card for use in NanoNote? I cant find the link :/14:45
kristianpaulvladislavkorotne: hi15:22
vladislavkorotnehi :)15:23
vladislavkorotnekristianpaul: could you pls tell me, wont having only 88% free on rootfs cause any problems?15:23
kristianpaulusing nanonote console try fsck.vfat /dev/mmcblk015:23
kristianpaulabout 88% free space, i dont think so15:23
vladislavkorotnewhats it do?15:23
kristianpaulformat sd card (aka memcard)15:24
Aylano it doesn't15:24
vladislavkorotnefsck is check15:24
kristianpaulah yes :)15:24
vladislavkorotnemkfs.fat or what? :P15:24
kristianpaulyes that i think15:24
vladislavkorotneand yep, how to set up fstab commands? like, mount the ubi data (2gig) partition to /data and Sd to /sd ?15:25
kristianpaulusually hacking openwrt nanoote init script15:26
vladislavkorotneit works on latest OpenWRT?15:27
vladislavkorotne'cause i have no /etc/init.d/start15:27
vladislavkorotneouch! 15:28
vladislavkorotneroot@BenNanoNote:~# /etc/init.d/start enable15:28
vladislavkorotne-ash: /etc/init.d/start: Permission denied15:28
kristianpaulyes i think is called nanonote or something15:29
kristianpaullet met power on my ben first15:29
vladislavkorotnebut why is it permission denied?15:29
kristianpaultry a ls first to see if exits15:29
kristianpauls/exits/is there15:30
vladislavkorotnestart is there15:30
kristianpaulhum, well you said last openwrt and mine is near to that but the only script i see related to ben nanonote specific boot is15:32
vladislavkorotneroot@BenNanoNote:~# ls /etc/init.d/15:32
vladislavkorotneatd                       fstab                     sysctl15:32
vladislavkorotneben-cyrillic              gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders  telnet15:32
vladislavkorotneben-nanonote              led                       triggerhappy15:32
vladislavkorotneboot                      network                   umount15:32
vladislavkorotnecron                      openvpn                   usb15:32
vladislavkorotnedbus                      pango-querymodules        watchdog15:32
vladislavkorotnedone                      rcS15:32
vladislavkorotnedropbear                  start15:32
kristianpaulok, so why you asked for lastest openwrt update?15:33
kristianpaulor my ben is oudated now and the script is now called start again..15:33
vladislavkorotnebecause start is not executable15:33
kristianpaulanyway, so you cant edit it, wht about just see it? same permision msg?15:34
vladislavkorotnei can see, but i need to launch15:34
vladislavkorotnethis in manual > /etc/init.d/start enable15:35
kristianpauloh yes15:35
kristianpaulan yes btw for that mkfs.vfat /dev/mmcblk0, you need opkg install mkdosfs15:36
vladislavkorotneso should i just chmod the start file?15:36
kristianpaulo just use sh i gues15:36
kristianpaulsh /etc/init.d/start enable15:36
vladislavkorotneok done15:37
kristianpaulas you wish :)15:37
vladislavkorotneok lets try :P15:37
vladislavkorotnemount -t vfat /dev/mmcblk0 /sd15:39
vladislavkorotnei feel like a n00b after 3 months w/o linux15:40
kristianpaulright = try most of the time i think15:41
kristianpaulbut yes it seems it could work15:41
vladislavkorotneno mmcblk0 in my /dev ;/15:43
kristianpaulls /dev/mmc*15:43
kristianpaultry update last openwrt release first then :)15:44
vladislavkorotnedone this morning :/ 15:44
kristianpaulokay i'll do and see 15:44
vladislavkorotneworks great15:48
vladislavkorotneand i shouldve just chmod'ed the start file :P and yes, "sh /etc/..." wont work :P15:48
vladislavkorotneroot@BenNanoNote:~# df15:49
vladislavkorotneFilesystem           1K-blocks      Used Available Use% Mounted on15:49
vladislavkorotneubi0:rootfs             471192    414372     56820  88% /15:49
vladislavkorotnetmpfs                    13928        32     13896   0% /tmp15:49
vladislavkorotnetmpfs                      512         0       512   0% /dev15:49
vladislavkorotneubi1:data              1417844    168184   1244820  12% /data15:49
vladislavkorotne/dev/mmcblk0            246060      5556    240504   2% /sd15:49
vladislavkorotnethank you very much15:50
vladislavkorotnesee ya :)15:51
vladislavkorotnethanks again15:51
kristianpaulha, OpenWrt boot is very cool, but seemns i got a unknow mount root fs message with latest release..17:20
vladislavkorotnehi guys :) I'm trying to port the "podfather" demo to Ben NanoNote and i wanted to ask if there's a way to link to libmikmod, as -lmikmod just doesnt get it done :/17:51
jow_laptophow does your makefile look like?17:51
jow_laptoplibmikmod is packaged and available17:52
vladislavkorotneyep i know17:52
vladislavkorotnei'm using "lightweight-porting"  compiling right on the Ben.17:52
vladislavkorotneheres the makefile: http://cl.ly/023w3D3d3n0x1w1k1v0917:53
jow_laptopdon't know about native compilation17:53
vladislavkorotnemaybe -llibmikmod?17:53
jow_laptophowever are you sure the problem isn't with rpath-link?17:53
jow_laptopwhat is the exact error?17:53
vladislavkorotnesome of the last lines of log:17:54
vladislavkorotnegcc podfather.o rotazoom.o shadeplasma.o text_printer.o sprite.o clovermap.o copper.o vectorballs.o bobs.o tunnel.o rubber.o end.o fb_sdl.o -o podfather `sdl-config --cflags` -Wall -g  -lm `sdl-config --static-libs` -lmikmod17:54
vladislavkorotne/bin/sh: sdl-config: not found17:54
Last message repeated 1 time(s).17:54
vladislavkorotne/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lmikmod17:54
vladislavkorotnecollect2: ld returned 1 exit status17:54
vladislavkorotnemake: *** [podfather] Error 117:54
jow_laptopis libmikmod even installed?17:54
jow_laptoptry adding -L/usr/lib17:55
vladislavkorotnemaybe add the path to it as an argument to gcc?17:55
vladislavkorotneoh lemme try17:55
jow_laptoptzhat should be defualt actually but I recall that there where issues with the defualt search paths in the past17:56
vladislavkorotnestill the same :( 17:57
vladislavkorotnegcc podfather.o rotazoom.o shadeplasma.o text_printer.o sprite.o clovermap.o copper.o vectorballs.o bobs.o tunnel.o rubber.o end.o fb_sdl.o -o podfather `sdl-config --cflags` -Wall -g  -lm `sdl-config --static-libs` -L/usr/lib -lmikmod17:57
vladislavkorotne/bin/sh: sdl-config: not found17:57
Last message repeated 1 time(s).17:57
vladislavkorotne/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lmikmod17:57
vladislavkorotnecollect2: ld returned 1 exit status17:57
vladislavkorotnemake: *** [podfather] Error 117:57
vladislavkorotnetrying to add the path to the file into CFLAGS...17:58
jow_laptopand /usr/lib/libmikmod.so is there?17:58
vladislavkorotneyes it is17:58
vladislavkorotneroot@BenNanoNote:/data/podf/podfather_src# ls /usr/lib/libmik*17:59
vladislavkorotne/usr/lib/libmikmod.so.2      /usr/lib/libmikmod.so.2.0.417:59
vladislavkorotneshould it be .so or it doesnt matter if it has .so.2 or .so.2.0.4?17:59
jow_laptopthere should be a .so18:00
jow_laptopwhich should be a symlink to .so.218:00
vladislavkorotneoh, i'll try to symlink :P18:00
jow_laptopwhich in turn should be a symlink to .so.2.0.418:00
jow_laptopI'll check whether libmikmod has a packaging issue18:00
vladislavkorotnealso, is there sdl-config somewhere?18:02
jow_laptopit will just output something like -I/usr/include/SDL for --cflags and -lsdl for --ldflags18:03
vladislavkorotneno issue with libmikmod after symlink, now errors for sdl: http://cl.ly/3m1a1F3X0I1w2731213y18:04
jow_laptopyou can directly add that to the Makefile18:04
jow_laptopyeah, -lsdl18:04
vladislavkorotne-lsdl for LDFLAGS, -I/usr/include/SDL to CFLAGS, checkin18:05
jow_laptopah sorry, it might be -lSDL-1.218:06
jow_laptopyou need to check how /usr/lib/libSDL* is called18:07
vladislavkorotnei'll check :P18:07
vladislavkorotneroot@BenNanoNote:/data/podf/podfather_src# ls /usr/lib/libSDL*18:08
vladislavkorotne/usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0             /usr/lib/libSDL_image.so18:08
vladislavkorotne/usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0.11.3        /usr/lib/libSDL_mixer-1.2.so.018:08
vladislavkorotne/usr/lib/libSDL.so                   /usr/lib/libSDL_mixer-1.2.so.0.10.118:08
vladislavkorotne/usr/lib/libSDL_gfx.so               /usr/lib/libSDL_mixer.so18:08
vladislavkorotne/usr/lib/libSDL_gfx.so.13            /usr/lib/libSDL_ttf-2.0.so.018:08
vladislavkorotne/usr/lib/libSDL_gfx.so.13.5.2        /usr/lib/libSDL_ttf-2.0.so.0.6.318:08
vladislavkorotne/usr/lib/libSDL_image-1.2.so.0       /usr/lib/libSDL_ttf.so18:08
vladislavkorotnewhich one? :o18:08
jow_laptopthe others are extensions18:08
vladislavkorotnealso is it case sensitive?18:08
vladislavkorotnei typed -lsdl18:08
vladislavkorotneoh :/18:10
vladislavkorotne/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lSDL-1.218:10
vladislavkorotnecollect2: ld returned 1 exit status18:10
vladislavkorotnemake: *** [podfather] Error 118:10
jow_laptopah right, symlinks again18:11
jow_laptopI assume libSDL.so points to libSDL-1.2.so.018:11
jow_laptopso simply try -lSDL18:11
vladislavkorotneso -lSDL, ok18:11
vladislavkorotnewish i wouldnt need that server to be a hackintosh for a project, otherwise i'd put debian on it, compile toolchain and its easier :p18:12
vladislavkorotnemake: warning:  Clock skew detected.  Your build may be incomplete.18:13
vladislavkorotneis that because of wrong date set?18:13
vladislavkorotneah nice18:13
jow_laptopor drifting clock18:13
vladislavkorotneit just failed to use /dev/rtc so i wasnt able to set h/w clock18:14
jow_laptopmake makes heavy use of file modification times to see what to recompile and what not, a quirky clock is a problem then obviously18:14
vladislavkorotnemake clean && make :)18:14
jow_laptopthat can get annyoing for big projects like Qt or the kernel18:15
vladislavkorotneyep :P18:15
vladislavkorotneyay, it sorta works18:18
vladislavkorotneplays 2 sequences and no sound :/18:19
vladislavkorotnethen crash w/o error18:19
jow_laptophow do oyu know it crashes?18:19
vladislavkorotneit should play next but it gets me to conslole18:20
jow_laptopI see18:20
vladislavkorotneneed to make it fullscreen too18:20
jow_laptopI suppose its time to fire up gdb then18:20
vladislavkorotneinstall it first ;)18:20
vladislavkorotnebecause i use a mac, i cant have internet on Ben, whats the dependencies for gdb?18:22
jow_laptopDepends: libreadline, libncurses18:23
jow_laptopboth libs have no further depends (and are likely installed already due to other software)18:25
vladislavkorotneok :)18:25
vladislavkorotnehow to launch it with gdb? sorry for disturbing, i feel like a complete n00b after 3 months w/o linux :P18:27
jow_laptopsimply  gdb command18:27
jow_laptopgdb --args command18:28
vladislavkorotnewhich args18:28
jow_laptopwhere command is what you would normaly run on the console18:28
jow_laptopI mean "--args" literally18:28
vladislavkorotneand will it display to the screen because it's an sdl app?18:28
jow_laptopthats a good question18:28
jow_laptopno gdb will print to the ocmmandline18:29
vladislavkorotnehow to forward it to my ssh session? :P18:29
vladislavkorotneis it how it should be?:18:30
vladislavkorotneroot@BenNanoNote:/data/podf/podfather_src# gdb --args ./podfather18:30
vladislavkorotnedlopen failed on 'libthread_db.so.1' - File not found18:30
vladislavkorotneGDB will not be able to debug pthreads.18:30
vladislavkorotneGNU gdb 6.818:30
vladislavkorotneCopyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc.18:30
vladislavkorotneLicense GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>18:30
vladislavkorotneThis is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.18:30
vladislavkorotneThere is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.  Type "show copying"18:30
vladislavkorotneand "show warranty" for details.18:30
vladislavkorotneThis GDB was configured as "mipsel-openwrt-linux"...18:30
jow_laptopnow type "run" and enter18:30
jow_laptopbut I guess you'll need to do that remotely to have both access to the program screen and the gdb commandline18:31
vladislavkorotneran it from ssh18:31
jow_laptopah ok18:31
vladislavkorotneoh, gdbserver?18:31
jow_laptopssh is fine18:32
vladislavkorotnei cant awaken the screen of the nanonote :/18:32
vladislavkorotneseems it isnt running18:32
vladislavkorotne(gdb) run18:32
vladislavkorotneStarting program: /data/podf/podfather_src/podfather 18:32
vladislavkorotne*** Loading... ***18:32
vladislavkorotneand thats it18:32
vladislavkorotnestill there :/ i cant see whats on the screen but it should've crashed already18:34
jow_laptopyou might need to set an env var18:34
vladislavkorotnekilled the prog18:35
vladislavkorotnescreen doesnt turn on, not even after i press a key18:35
jow_laptopexport SDL_VIDEODRIVER=directfb; gdb ...18:35
vladislavkorotnereboot first :/18:35
vladislavkorotnegot it!18:39
vladislavkorotneif i specify the driver, it works flawlessly, but no sound18:39
jow_laptopmaybe you need to specify the sdl audiodriver too then18:39
vladislavkorotneit's using mikmod, no?:P18:40
vladislavkorotneoh, what's SDL_AUDIODRIVER= ?18:40
vladislavkorotnehanged here:18:40
vladislavkorotneWarning: Could not load module (Could not open requested file)18:40
vladislavkorotneProgram received signal SIGFPE, Arithmetic exception.18:40
vladislavkorotne0x00405b80 in rubber_frame (time=1) at rubber.c:1518:40
vladislavkorotnewarning: Source file is more recent than executable.18:40
vladislavkorotne15for (i=0; i<256; i++) {18:40
vladislavkorotnelol what?18:40
jow_laptopSIGFPE is a floating point exception18:41
vladislavkorotneyep, idk why18:41
jow_laptoptype "continue"18:41
jow_laptopto see if it is catched or if the program indeed crashes18:42
vladislavkorotneProgram received signal SIGFPE, Arithmetic exception.18:42
vladislavkorotne0x00405b80 in rubber_frame (time=1) at rubber.c:1518:42
vladislavkorotnewarning: Source file is more recent than executable.18:42
vladislavkorotne15for (i=0; i<256; i++) {18:42
vladislavkorotne(gdb) continue18:42
vladislavkorotne(!) [  803:    0.000] --> Caught signal 8 (at 0x405b80, integer divide by zero) <--18:42
vladislavkorotnelibgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work18:42
vladislavkorotneProgram received signal SIGABRT, Aborted.18:42
vladislavkorotne0x2ba6d134 in raise () from /lib/libc.so.018:42
vladislavkorotne(gdb) continue18:42
vladislavkorotne(!) [  803:    2.795] --> Caught signal 6 (unknown origin) <--18:42
vladislavkorotneProgram received signal SIGABRT, Aborted.18:42
vladislavkorotne0x2ba6d134 in raise () from /lib/libc.so.018:42
vladislavkorotne(gdb) continue18:42
jow_laptoplooks not good18:42
vladislavkorotneoops this log didnt go through, here it is: http://cl.ly/2k3h1Y0o092y3Z2O2b1818:42
jow_laptopwhere can I find "podfather" ?18:43
vladislavkorotnelemme chk18:44
vladislavkorotnei had it on my hdd since 200618:44
vladislavkorotneHere: http://www.west.co.tt/matt/ipod/podfather/podfather_src.tar.gz18:45
jow_laptopone thing you can try is to add "-msoft-float" to the CFLAGS and recompile it18:45
vladislavkorotnelemme try18:45
vladislavkorotneexport SDL_VIDEODRIVER=directfb; expo18:46
vladislavkorotnert SDL_AUDIODRIVER=dsp; /data/podf/podfather_src/podfather 18:46
vladislavkorotnestill on sound18:46
vladislavkorotneok, heres the build log with -msoft-float: http://cl.ly/3I3m3O3s3b372q2Q3r0618:49
vladislavkorotnecrashed even earlier18:51
vladislavkorotne(!) [  882:    0.000] --> Caught signal 6 (unknown origin) <--18:51
jow_laptopI don't know then18:54
kristianpaulnice meatiatomb !19:01
kristianpaulvladislavkorotne: i just finishing flashing my nanonote with lastest build19:02
vladislavkorotneah :)19:02
kristianpaulnow can i tranfers files via this web UI..19:04
kristianpaulhum gtk* apps seems have broken font19:14
kristianpauli just get squares instead of readable characters19:14
PiLeSHey hey!21:54
PiLeSI have 2 bricked Bens here, anyone can help?21:55
Ayla give me one :p21:59
PiLeSThey enter USB_BOOT mode just fine, but flashing always fails (2 different cables, 2 different PCs, 8 different ports).21:59
PiLeSRe Ayla ;-) nope21:59
Aylathe PCs are linux or windows?22:00
Aylaand what are you doing exactly?22:00
PiLeSI tried the reflash-ben.sh method and also the usbtools methods. erasing works fine but writing always fails.22:01
PiLeSfetching kernel...22:02
PiLeSbooting device...22:02
PiLeSflashing kernel...22:02
PiLeSDone:  0/422:02
PiLeS[                                                                              ]22:02
PiLeSfatal error occured - ABORTED22:02
PiLeSerror while flashing kernel:22:02
PiLeSError - can't read bulk data from Ingenic device:6422:02
Last message repeated 1 time(s).22:03
Last message repeated 2 time(s).22:03
PiLeS(errors are not always 64: there is the occasionnal -110 or others)22:03
Aylaheard of pastebin.com?22:03
jow_laptopflashing from my work desktop used to constantly fail, no matter what I tried, flashing from a thinkpad worked right away22:03
jow_laptopI think some usb hosts just do not play nice22:03
PiLeSOK I can try from yet another PC22:04
PiLeSwell rogger me senseless with a cricket bat, it just worked22:23
PiLeSDell workstations: -2; Acer laptop: 122:23
jow_laptopmy work desktop was a Dell too22:24
PiLeSMy Dells are kinda old, usb 1.1; the laptop has USB 2. Might be the reason.22:26
PiLeSThat, or Michael Dell tries to kill copyleft hardware ;-)22:27
jow_laptopno, he probably just takes the cheapest usb hosts :)22:27
PiLeSSo now I'm stuck on a black sreen with the Ben character and the end of an error message at the bottom: wn-block(0,0)e to mount root fs on unkno22:35
jow_laptopthere is *IMPORTANT* update on __reflash_ben.sh__ please update your local file.22:36
jow_laptopmaybe that?22:36
PiLeSI just downloaded the new script... so unless the location is different...? Ill check22:37
PiLeSNo I have the right one. The boot sequence just won't complete.22:42
PiLeSThe machines are stuck, too: only way to shut down is the reset button (or remove the battery)22:43
jow_laptopis it possible that the u-boot is misconfigured?22:44
jow_laptopmaybe it passwd wrong kernel args22:44
PiLeSmaybe I should use a slightly older image? what image are you guys using?22:44
jow_laptopits been a long time since I played with my ben22:44
PiLeSOK there is a problem with the fs image I think (the flashing gives a divide by zero error). I'll just use an older image.22:48
PiLeSOK still doesn't work with the 2011-08-27 image but at least there's no splash screen so I can see the error in full! Progress!22:59
jow_laptopif the error persists across multiple image versions I asdsume its indeed some bootloader thing23:00
jow_laptopdid you try reflash-ben.sh -b yet?23:00
jow_laptopit is supposed to replace u-boot23:01
PiLeSYes; the problem is with the rootfs: the boot loader tries to find / on block (0,0) apparently. I just need to pass the correct location as "root="23:08
jow_laptopwhich is defined in the u-boot environment23:08
jow_laptopmaybe the partition layout changed since the version you had on your ben23:08
PiLeSShould not be a problem; one of my Bens is pretty new. Also, I reflashed the fs as well as the bootloader so there definitely should not be any prob in theory.23:16
PiLeSWell, my bad; I didn't copy the fs correctly. My laptop is in the bedroom; not my natural environment for these things. I'd prefer doing it from this machine but the USB controller won't let me 23:40
PiLeSOK so I now have one running JLime and one OpenWRT. I'm a happy geek again. Now to reinstall nethack and quake... :D23:46
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