#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2011-11-18

wolfspraulwpwrak: wow I didn't even knew there were 'reviews' in the shop :-)00:21
wolfspraulwill replace creloaded with a very plain one anyway (thought not on top of list right now)00:21
wolfspraulwhitequark: testing a unicode char :-) , NanoNote03:22
wolfspraullet's see whether that comes out right in the logs in a little while03:22
wolfspraulmaybe you are right and the utf-8 problem is already solved, then just my notes are outdated...03:23
rohheh. unicode and solved ;)03:29
rohsometimes you are really funny *g*03:29
wolfspraulsomething not solved?03:40
wpwrakthat's chinese diode. see, that's why china dominates the electronics market today - they've known semiconductors for centuries already. they even have them in their font ;-)03:46
wolfspraulit sounded like roh thinks Unicode doesn't solve anything03:50
wolfspraulso I was curious to understand his point03:50
wpwraki think he was just pleasantly surprised that unicode didn't cause trouble :)03:56
wolfspraulutf-8 seems to work well03:58
wolfspraulwhitequark: cool, you are right!04:04
wolfspraulthe utf-8 problems seems not to be in eggdrop, but the html generator04:05
wolfspraulthe Chinese Ben character does not show up correctly (in my browser at least) on http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2011-11-18.log.html#t03:2204:05
wolfspraulbut it does show correctly at http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2011-11-18#1321586529;04:05
wolfspraulfor the links, I am wondering how we can keep the old links working if we switch to your view04:08
wolfspraulboth seem to use timestamps, but the links we have right now only use the minute #thh:mm04:09
wolfspraulwhereas yours go all the way to seconds and what not?04:09
wolfspraulI could do a regex redirect to take out the 't' and ':', but your engine would need to search for the next entry...04:10
wolfspraulfor example http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2011-11-18#1321;04:10
wolfspraulcan the #1321; automatically find the next entry, that is #1321586529; ?04:10
rohwolfspraul: irc has no concept of charset, so either its 7bit and it works for everyone, or you have some understanding to use utf8 like we do. or another charset. there is just no 'field' in irc which enables one to fetch which one it is automagically04:38
rohchinese diode :) yeah04:38
rohif we have a unicode console we can do also a bit of nice ui...04:40
rohuse ncurses_w ;)04:40
wolfspraulroh: that's ok but we can assume/define utf-8 to be our charset on this channel04:43
wolfspraulthere goes your 'field'04:43
rohwell.. yeah. manual mode04:44
roh'inband signalling' (cause we talked about it)04:44
whitequarkwolfspraul: it's easy to fix the links05:05
whitequarkjust make a two-line js which will get the timestamp in #txx:xx format, convert it to unix one and redirect to my irclog05:06
wolfspraulyeah I think if you could make #1321; work I can see an upgrade path05:06
wolfspraulthe link that already exists somewhere does not have all precision05:07
wolfspraulso best I can convert it to (without js, just regex Apache redirect) is #1321;05:07
whitequarkwolfspraul: yes, and, as I've converted the html logs, my ones do not have all the precision05:07
wolfspraulbut then you have to search for the next match, right now such a url won't find anything05:07
whitequarkbesides that05:07
whitequarkthe #hash part does not get to the webserver05:08
whitequarkit's just on the client side05:08
wolfspraulthat was my next question how well your system would work with simple text browsers or non-javascript browsers05:08
wolfspraulor wget, curl etc.05:08
whitequarkwolfspraul: it handles both the simple browsers, in which case the #hash is handled by regular html means05:09
whitequarkand the complex ones, in which it uses a JS handler05:09
whitequarkgraceful degradation FTW!05:09
wolfspraulI still don't understand what to do with a link that only has minute precision05:09
wolfspraulthe best I can convert it to is #1321;05:10
whitequarkI was converting it to a corresponding unix timestamp with the seconds set to 0005:10
whitequarkI offer a following solution05:10
wolfsprauldoesn't work05:11
whitequarkyou make an apache redirect to a specially-crafted html page. That page will have a <meta refresh> for the JS-less browsers which will just redirect to whole day in my logger05:11
whitequarkas you can't get a hash part on the webserver anyway, that's fine05:11
whitequarkand also it will have JS code which will get the hash part on the client, then construct a proper unix timestamp and forward to #111222333 on my logger05:12
wolfspraulcan you make your backend smarter in that a partial link like #1321; will search forward to the next match?05:12
whitequarkwolfspraul: the #thh:mm part does not reach the webserver05:12
whitequarkyou can't make an apache redirect for it05:12
whitequarkif you don't believe me, use tcpdump05:13
whitequarkwhen a browser fetches something like http://google.com/#anchor, it sends an HTTP request to http://google.com/05:14
wolfspraulah, yeah05:14
whitequarkand then finds element with id="anchor" and scrolls to it05:14
wolfspraulskipped over that05:14
wolfspraultrue true05:14
wolfspraulok then, I rest my case until I thought it through :-)05:15
wolfspraulworst case we can break old links, I can probably find them in most places and update manually05:15
whitequarkwolfspraul: as I've said: a simple JS snippet does the forwarding, nothing will be lost05:17
whitequarksomething like var re=/t(\d{2}):(\d{2})/;var t=re.match(document.hash);document.location="http://irclog.whitequark.org/$channel/$day/"+Date.parse("$day").setUTCHours(t[0], t[1]).getTime();05:21
whitequarkI'm assuming that $channel is, well, channel and $date is yyyy-mm-dd05:21
wolfspraulI was talking with Jon about feeding the #qi-hardware channel into twitter05:28
wolfspraulthat way I could finally solve my continued unwillingness to 'maintain' the qi-hardware feed on Twitter05:29
wolfsprauland surprisingly he thought it's a good idea05:29
wolfspraulI thought it would violate the twitter tos or be seen as rude or so05:29
wolfspraulbut.. seems not05:29
whitequarkthat's insane05:31
wolfspraulhe suggested a qi-noise feed though05:31
wolfspraulas for naming05:31
whitequark#qi-hw sometimes makes hundreds messages a day05:32
wolfspraulwhitequark: what is insane? :-)05:32
whitequarkno one would ever follow that05:32
whitequarkat least no one you'd want to follow you05:32
whitequarki.e. men who know what to do with their time.05:32
wolfsprauldepends on how people use twitter05:32
whitequarkwell I use it :D05:32
wolfspraulhow many people do you follow, and how do you follow them? you read everything?05:33
whitequarkI follow 3405:33
whitequarkand yes, I read every tweet05:33
whitequarkthat's about 200 tweets a day, and that's more than enough05:33
wolfsprauldo you follow #qi-hardware on Twitter?05:34
whitequarkthere are some news, like @lwn or @phoronix, and some random people, like classmates who're nevertheless interesting or e.g. @mislav05:34
whitequarkdidn't knew qi-hw has twitter05:34
wolfspraulJon said 'make a new feed #qi-noise', so that wouldn't catch anybody following #qi-hardware by surprise05:34
wolfsprauloh it's pretty much dead/unmaintained05:35
whitequarkwell it doesn't05:35
wolfsprauland I enjoy more making irc work better than diving into the Twitter world05:35
whitequarkno @qi_hardware account exists05:35
whitequarkwell, there are generally two twitter strategies05:35
whitequark1) tell about interesting events, i.e. new devices, new firmwares etc. (the "convenient and useful way")05:36
whitequarkthat'll be relatively rare05:36
whitequark2) tell about every fly that's got in your office (the "I'm a 13-year-old girl way")05:37
wolfspraulwe could have some command in irc to trigger that05:37
whitequarkyes, this is much better05:37
whitequarkand a whitelist I think05:37
whitequarkso that a random spammer couldn't spoil official account05:37
wolfspraulso every line could go to qi-noise, but you need some command to make it show up in qi-hardware05:38
wolfspraulnah I wouldn't want to maintain a whitelist, better to just have a well behaved community culture05:38
whitequarkI doubt that @qi-noise should ever exist05:38
whitequarkfor what?05:38
whitequarkunlike irc, twitter has a timeline, where each message takes pretty much space, and is spawning desktop notifications05:39
wolfspraulI know little about Twitter customs and behavior, so I take your word for granted.05:40
wolfspraulhow about people following certain hash tags/themes05:40
whitequarkyou may also ask ronkjeffries05:40
wolfspraulif we had a qi-noise where each irc line would go to, that would be a way to connect to that05:41
whitequarkwolfspraul: hashtags generally follow the two described strategies05:41
whitequarkeither it's some random nonsense like #welovejustinbieber05:42
whitequarkor a carefully prepared tweet with proper length, embedded links etc.05:42
wolfspraulok, but if we would setup a qi-noise feed and pump all irc messages into that, it would allow people following hashtags to see stuff they are interested in, no?05:42
whitequarkit would have way too low SND05:43
whitequarkI don't know anyone who actually follows some hashtag05:44
whitequark(know != follow)05:44
whitequarkhashtags generally have a lot of traffic with them05:44
wolfspraulif nobody follows, why do they exist?05:44
wolfspraulI think it's a common usage, at least from what I hear05:45
whitequark"do not follow" like in "follow people"05:45
whitequarkhashtag is just an explicit keyword05:45
whitequarkit allows you to search quickly for latest news on trending topics05:45
wolfspraulok, first and best idea is to have some command that makes an 'official' tweet on qi-hardware05:45
whitequarktechnically that's fine and corresponds with the way twitter works05:45
whitequarkI'm just concerned a bit about social issues05:46
whitequarkbut well, I'm not the owner of qi-hw05:46
wolfspraulbut some people seem to be in some sort of frenzy to post as many messages as possible05:46
wolfspraulevery few minutes05:46
wolfspraulone would almost want to recommend a good mental health doctor to them :-)05:46
whitequarkand that's exactly why qi-hw should not behave the same way05:47
whitequarkthey're annying and look silly05:47
whitequarkonly the... similar people do follow them05:47
whitequarkI guess to raise one's self-esteem...05:47
wolfsprauland then they are happy when they reach 10k posts, 20k, etc.05:48
wolfsprauloh sure, no need to do that so your feedback and really very appreciated05:48
whitequarkand they follow thousands of people05:48
wolfsprauland actually read none of it, let alone think05:48
whitequarkno man on earth could ever read 10k+ tweets a day05:48
whitequarkpointless tweets :D05:48
wolfspraulthat's why I thought feeding the entire irc feed in there could make them happy :-)05:48
Action: whitequark facepalms05:49
whitequarkdoes you have a need in a flock of idiots flooding #qi-hw?05:49
whitequarkI doubt that :)05:50
wolfspraulthat's tempting05:50
wolfspraulok anyway, we are joking. yes, it should serve some good purpose. we have some degree of responsibility to use those tools wisely, I think.05:51
wolfspraulso... if we ever do this, then first just with some command to qi-bot that routes to the qi-hardware twitter feed05:51
wolfspraulbut no whitelist05:51
wolfspraulI hope that we share enough common ground for that not to be needed.05:52
wolfsprauland I would encourage anyone who has any interesting/bigger thing to announce or say about qi hardware to just use that command05:52
wolfspraulwhich we don't have anyway right now, so it's just a plan05:52
whitequarkIRC is less known these days05:52
whitequarkso I guess that may work05:52
whitequarkI heard that ten years ago it was as popular as facebook (compared to the size of internet audience)05:53
whitequark(I'm 18 btw)05:53
wolfspraulwhat about the absolute number of users?05:54
wolfspraulI think irc was always underground/techie05:54
whitequarkthat may be just the russian specifity05:54
wolfspraulthere were others like iqc or so that were big, aol messenger? (I forgot)05:54
wolfspraulicq, yeah05:55
whitequarkwell I don't believe my eyes05:55
wolfspraulhow is the absolute number of irc users developing? I don't know05:55
wolfspraulwhat i find interesting about the model is that the big servers mostly seem to be community supported05:55
wolfspraulan amazing achievement05:55
whitequarkI've finally met someone who not only does not hate icq, but hardly knows what's it05:55
whitequarkthen, I guess, that irc statistics is indeed the russian specifity. 5 years ago, everyone knows what icq is and greatly overuses it05:56
whitequarkand mIRC is a popular blonde-talking toolpiece of software05:56
whitequarkmaybe it's because providers had not charged for the access to it in the dialup times or whatever. I don't actually know05:57
whitequarkgoogle even knows that "<8@:0", a russian slang word for mIRC, corresponds to the program's name05:58
wolfspraulok but how about absolute irc usage?05:58
wolfspraullet me quickly check whether there are freenode stats...05:59
kyakthere are global irc stats sites overthere..05:59
whitequarkfirst, icq has eaten almost all of the non-techie part of market years ago05:59
kyakthe number of users has dropped much05:59
whitequarkand then gtalk with facebook (and its clones) came in and finished that05:59
wolfspraul"In 1998, the network had about 200 users and less than 20 channels. Ten years down the line the network currently peaks at just over 70,000 users"05:59
xiangfukyak, the i386 SDK and toolchian is building. so it will be on server in next 24 hours. :) after build success I will send one email to list. 06:00
whitequarkwolfspraul: that's just freenode06:00
kyakicq is dead, too (if compared to what it used to be several years ago, in terms of amount of users)06:00
kyakxiangfu: cool :)06:00
wolfspraulso what's our conclusion now? sorry got lost. irc is dead?06:00
whitequarkkyak: why "too"? irc isn't dead, it just has a well-defined audience06:01
xiangfukyak, just sent out the new release email. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Release-2-11-11-13-2.JPG :)06:01
wolfspraulwe discuss that irc is dead on an irc channel?06:01
whitequarkkyak: and thankfully it does not include the majority of internet users06:01
kyakwhitequark: irc is well dead06:01
kyakwe are the mammoth :)06:01
wolfspraullemme work on a temporary couple-year eggdrop module to feed twitter, while that's the hype06:01
whitequarkkyak: I do not agree.06:01
wolfspraulnot even worth upstreaming, so temporary it is :-)06:02
kyak2000-2004 were the golden age of irc06:02
whitequarkwolfspraul: I bet someone already wrote that06:02
kristianpauloh, qi-hw , that milkymist on the left call atention for sure06:02
whitequarkwolfspraul: also the twitter API isn't quite trivial06:02
kyakthere are twitter to irc eggdrop scripts, if that's what yo uare looking for06:02
wolfspraulhow about the other way round?06:03
whitequarkkyak: the ones which I have found atm are all using API v106:03
whitequarki.e. the "easy http one"06:03
kyakwolfspraul: the other way around, too06:03
whitequarkwhich has been removed afaik06:03
wolfspraulwe want some command here in the channel that allows us to send to the qi-hardware twitter feed06:03
whitequarkah, twitter to irc.06:03
kyakwhitequark: there are ones using oath api06:03
kyakhow about this one?06:05
kristianpaulhum...maybe the white background , but i dont dicuss on likes06:05
kyakbtw, twitter on irc. And you are saying irc is not dead? :)06:06
whitequarkkyak: twitter is a temporary hype06:06
kristianpauloh, sharim.org asterisk, what happened with freedom diagram..06:07
kyakwhitequark: what is the purpose?06:07
whitequarkkyak: I dunno06:07
kristianpauli'm not against that link but, i wonder how is related to the goals green block06:08
wolfspraulkyak: the purpose is that everybody is able to quickly send a tweet to the qi-hardware twitter feed without having to deal with the twitter gui or apps06:08
kyakwhitequark: i mean, what is the purpose of posting to twitter from irc?06:08
wolfspraulthe way it is right now is that a few people have the password, but nobody posts (understandably :-)) for example I'm just too lazy to login06:09
wolfspraulfirst we thought we just pump the entire stream into twitter, but then whitequark said it's much better if that would happen only for selected messages, with some command to the bot06:09
wolfspraulas for dead or not, I don't think the whole world will converge around one means of communication, ever06:10
wolfspraulof course twitter is huge and growing06:10
wolfsprauland tons of others, here there, all sorts of things06:10
wolfspraulI think even sms is still growing06:10
wolfsprauland operator executives were laughing their asses off 15 years ago that their huge sms profits just wouldn't stop because users were so hooked to sending 20 cent messages that cost the network 0.01 cents to deliver06:11
whitequark3g is growing, and jabber/gtalk/italk (or whatever you'll call it) has waaay much better UX than sms06:11
wolfspraulwhat i like about irc is the fact that it's decentralized and the servers are mostly operated by community06:11
whitequarkyeah 0.01 cents is a huge exaggregation06:11
wolfspraulI find that amazing06:11
wolfspraulkyak: can you setup an eggdrop script to allow us to post to twitter?06:15
wolfspraulI can also just remember the url to the script you posted for the next chance I get to it06:16
wolfspraulit's not really urgent I think, but a nice idea imho06:16
wolfspraulok I added a todo item for now, good idea I think! http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup#To_Do06:27
kyakwolfspraul: i can do that10:28
kyakgonna experiment with my own bot first..10:36
wolfspraulkyak: wonderful, thank you11:19
wolfspraulno rush on this, it's just an idea because I keep wondering what to do with our twitter account11:20
wolfspraulone day I was very close to just deleting it, but that felt wrong too11:20
rohhave you seen these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Luwc_ejaLjw&NR=111:24
wpwrakreading the irc/twitter discussion ...11:29
wpwraktwittering without using twitter. so it's basically like people eating at the table (irc). and every once in a while, someone drops a morsel under the table, for the dogs. that would be twitter. i find the analogy strangely satisfying :-)11:31
wolfspraulI see it much more practical. there should be an easy way for anybody in the qi community to push out a quick tweet, without much ado11:31
wolfspraulfor me it's not about a vs b, I don't care. I just irc because it's the best and most convenient for me.11:32
wolfspraulso I can finally send a tweet right here from the channel, phew11:32
wolfsprauland then Jon told me he liked the idea a lot and was at some point in time already planning a deeper irc/identica integration (which afaik didn't happen in the end or so far)11:33
wpwrakyeah, dunno about twitter. i know it exists and people i "follow" by other means gather information there11:34
wpwraki rarely find any pointers to twitter useful, though. i.e., the one item linked to is very often all that's relevant there11:36
wpwrakregarding irc, it has become a conferencing tool. and it was never a "commercial mainstream" thing. so it's not surprising that the masses don't use it.11:37
xiangfuwpwrak, we can connect people here to -> 'masses' by the eggdrop-twitter. if it's double way. that mean. people here(geek) <-- connect --> 'masses'11:50
xiangfuwoakas, that is really cool idea. 11:51
xiangfuwolfspraul, ^11:51
wpwrakhmm, i somehow doubt we need a proxy "follower" ;-)11:52
xiangfuif the twitter reply message can forward to irc much cooler. or maybe all @sharism @qi-hardware message can forward to irc channel will be cool11:52
xiangfukyak: there are too many social networking. if we can connect IRC with ping.fm will be cool. 11:53
wpwrakbut nobody posts there :)11:54
xiangfuwpwrak, wolfgang will do that. :)  if have this feature. you and I may also want do that. because it is so simple for people there.11:55
wpwrakoh, i can see a point in having a means to push out messages to twitter. but you don't need a back channel, since the original message wuold be here anyway11:55
kyakxiangfu: let's start with twitter :)11:56
xiangfukyak, yes. sure. I am just saying. software always can  get better. :)11:57
xiangfukyak, wow.12:48
kyaknow, if someone could @mention qihardware to see if it works back?12:48
kyakusers allowed to post from the channel need to added by hand.. i think this is reasonable... so whoever want to post, please tell me12:50
kyaknice :)12:51
kyakxiangfu: and it's not my script, thanks go to someone else12:51
kyakwhitequark: one more time :)12:57
xiangfunow. it's kyak's bot. :)12:59
kyakwhitequark: and one more time :)13:00
kyakxiangfu: you can try, too13:02
wolfspraulkyak: can't you allow anyone in the channel to tweet?13:03
kyakwolfspraul: i can, but it's not secure, how do you think?13:04
wolfspraulI think it's secure13:04
kyakok.. figure it out later.. need to go now13:05
wolfspraulsure, thanks a lot for taking it this far!13:05
wolfspraulyes, I believe we should open it up until we have actual cases of abuse, then we can think about the smartest way to address them13:05
kyakok, it should be open now13:06
kyakand i need to go :)13:06
wolfspraulthanks again13:06
wolfspraulxiangfu: wanna try your release tweet again?13:07
wpwrak"you must have vogon flags" ? seems appropriate. some of what qi-bot now spews out sounds like vogon lyrics :)13:12
kristianpaulxiangfu: nice quoute :)13:15
xiangfuok. it still only listen kyak's order. 13:21
kristianpaulhaha 13:22
kyak..and it should work now for everyone15:23
kristianpaulhum as i remind the message you be shirnked before post17:17
wpwrakyou mean qi-bit should reject messages that are too long ?17:27
kristianpaulyes, and warning about it17:31
wpwraknaw, just silently drop. if it's still not there after ten minutes, you have warning enough :)17:34
GNUtoo-dekstophow's the GPS going?17:36
wpwrakyeah, when does production start ? :)17:36
kristianpaulhi GNUtoo-dekstop 17:37
kristianpaulacquisition and tracking are WIP17:38
kristianpaulwpwrak: as soon as position fix is achieved17:38
wpwrakheh :)17:40
kyakkristianpaul: you can insert \n in your message to split it, i think18:18
kristianpaulGNUtoo-dekstop: the idea and curret work is to have a dedicated base band procesor that will acquire and track signals the the navigation data could be extracted and be procesed by other cpu in order to get a fix point18:29
kristianpaulall inside the fpga and using mikymist core as a base of course18:30
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