#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2011-11-15

kristianpaulhey this evil http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:M1rc3_0x46_AB21_ball.png 01:40
wpwrakfun ;-)01:43
wpwrakalright :)07:06
wpwrakso ... today's topic is: is the ben a dying platform ... or not ? :)07:06
wolfspraul:-)07:06
wolfspraulis Ron here?07:06
wpwraki'll play advocatus diabolis :)07:07
wolfspraullast I saw him he just dumped a few more off-topic links and left right away :-)07:07
rohwolfspraul: i think ingenic is the wrong tree to bark on. soc vendors basically never are good at doing sw07:07
wolfspraulhe07:07
wolfspraulthat may be, I don't know, but I can very much understand your point07:07
wolfspraulthat's why I put half my energy behind Ben, half behind Milkymist07:07
rohgood soc support/drivercode comes from people who know not one vendor, but 10 and how their hw works, register wise. people working for vendors have a much too limited view on the field. they only know in-house concepts it seems sometimes07:08
wpwrakroh: i think wolfgang is barking up that tree just for R&D financing. hopefully getting enough to pay for hw and sw :)07:08
wolfspraulI think many soc makers will quit, yes07:08
wolfspraulTI is supposedly trying to sell OMAP for years07:09
rohwpwrak: that would be nice, sure. but then they also need to deliver some soc which is atleast a class better than whats in ben07:09
wpwrakbut ... at the moment, the ben's prospect doesn't look rosy. work on the software has dwindled to a trickle.07:09
wolfspraulnvidia has never sold in retail07:09
wolfspraulmarvell is moving in a similar direction07:09
wolfspraulthey are in a difficult spot07:09
wpwrakthere is no new hardware in sight.07:09
rohwolfspraul: i just had a marvell develboard tablet clone on my desk. android, very badly made, low end crap.. but still >600bogomips07:10
wpwrakroh: maybe TI would then be a better tree ? they may want to hear some barking07:10
wolfspraulway too big07:10
rohi cannot see them making real money on that. one lawsuit and there is no return of investment for that product anymore.07:10
wolfspraulif TI is lucky, Amazon helps them beat their OMAP business in shape for a sale07:10
wolfspraulwpwrak: first there needs to be a business opportunity07:10
wpwrak(too big) TI or the OMAP ?07:11
rohwpwrak: no. ti doest 'their thing' ... i don't believe in their recent change of heart. also the hw is much too complicated for making new designs from scratch07:11
wpwrakthe biz opportunity could be design wins to rub under people's nose07:11
wolfspraulI am fairly relaxed about the ben07:11
wpwrakhow's the user base growing ? ;-)07:12
wolfspraulI sell maybe 5-10 a month07:12
wpwraktalk about exclusive :)07:13
wolfspraulbut when I lean back and think, what I want to work on is kicad, boom, mechanical, better collaboration with Ingenic07:13
wolfspraulthe software has a lot of room for improvement if we are able to upstream more, polish, fix loose ends, etc.07:14
wpwrakso, half a wolfgang and half a xiangfu, working on the revenue from 5-10 bens per month. let's say the ben's margin is 50%. that's USD 500 at best. can wolfgang and xiangfu live on EUR 1000 per month, shared ?07:15
wolfspraulthe memory, pixel resolution and mhz constraints don't bother me that much right now because they will lift up everything once we make a device with bigger specs, and if we have to go to Milkymist first, it's a protection against expecting too much from Milkymist07:15
wolfsprauloh, my math is different07:15
wpwrakthe problem of the ben is that it's getting stale. like bread.07:15
wolfspraulfirst there are tons of businesses loosing money with Android07:16
wolfspraulhow much longer do they want to do that?07:16
wolfspraulwe see07:16
wolfspraulthen, there are tons of other businesses that want to move software stacks into their existing non-computing products07:16
wolfspraulthey are all potential customers07:16
wolfspraulwe cannot make the Ben a great smartphone (or tablet), but that's clear to everybody I think07:17
wpwraklook at the vibrant community: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/irc-qihw-1011.png  the trend of the red line is pretty clear07:17
wpwrakthe mailing list is even worse07:17
wolfspraulafraid of silence? :-)07:17
wpwrakso you're advertizing the ben's software to current android makers ?07:18
wpwrak(silence) i;d like the silence of people busily working. but this is the silence of a ghost town07:19
wpwrakof course, you can keep the ben on life support for a while07:20
wpwrakindefinitely, if you want. even if all development stops, you can still claim it's supported. on hold. whatever.07:20
wpwrakand you;ll still have a crate of bens you could sell07:20
wolfspraulso... next question is: where is the next opportunity reusing Ben tech?07:21
wpwrakand you can probably pay for the webshop indefinitely from your "day job". so it becomes a hobby.07:21
wpwraka ya ?07:21
wolfspraulI need to find out whether there is any way to active Ingenic or not.07:22
wpwrakpeople are putting some ben tech on other 4740-based devices, dingoo and such, but i don't know if that's very popular07:22
wpwrakand, while it's a nice service to that community, it doesn't help sharism to finance new nanonotes (or something else)07:23
wolfsprauls/active/activate/07:23
wpwrakactivating ingenic sounds good :)07:23
wolfspraulbut unlikely to work07:23
wpwrakit there any chance of this happening ?07:23
wpwrakah :)07:23
wolfspraulI doubt it07:23
wpwrakthat much about ingenic-as-investor07:23
wolfspraulI think there is a higher chance to do something outside of the classical computer industry.07:24
wpwrakback to ti ? :) they may be interested. show the world how easy it is to make stunning new nanonotes with an omap.07:24
wolfspraulno way07:24
wolfspraulactually I sold a Ben to them once when they were looking for a way to advertise omap407:24
wpwraksocial networking ? no hw needed :)07:24
wolfspraulI guess the Ben featured proudly in 1 meeting and was then discarded :-)07:25
wolfspraulthere are less and less ways to finance proprietary software investments07:25
wpwrakabout 0.08% of your customer base. it's a start ;-)07:25
wolfspraulthat removes a large source of innovation from many companies07:25
wolfspraulso we have to look for opportunities for the NanoNote tech outside of classical tech companies, imho07:26
wpwrakwell, we may still see the fall of modern capitalism. but that's a different topic :)07:26
wpwrakso where would the nanonote tech go ?07:26
wpwrakwhat would it do ? what would those companies do with it ?07:27
wpwrakand how do you even reach them ?07:27
wolfspraulI thought about a simple touch midi controller the other day, just as an idea.07:27
wpwrakmaybe that 47xx thingie in playboy could have been a nanonote project07:27
wolfspraulno battery, no wifi07:27
wpwrakbut how would playboy ever find qi-hw ?07:27
wolfsprauljust usb powered, boots into capacitive touch controller app07:28
wolfspraulI can only describe my current Ben plans:07:30
wpwraklike this one ? http://www.icon-global.com/ShowPro.aspx?ID=13607:30
wolfspraul1. continue selling and supporting the Ben NanoNote07:30
wolfspraul2. try to help with upstreaming, polishing, porting apps, fixing bugs, adding features, coming out with new software releases07:31
wolfspraul3. prepare/remove some blockers for future products, especially mechanical related07:31
wpwrakcreating a new product costs money. for a midi controller, you also need to ensure great compatibility with the proprietary software people use, ableton and friends.07:32
wolfspraul4. keep looking for business opportunities (customers or investors) that could help define the exact specs of the Ya and then go for it07:32
wolfspraulnot if we mainly sell it with m1 :-)07:32
wpwrak1-3 are life support. 4 is the important one07:32
wolfspraulthey connect together. supporting customers is no life support.07:33
wpwrakm1 itself is a difficult basis. you're creating a niche for a niche.07:33
wolfspraulsure07:33
wolfspraulit could be the wrong bet, same as the NanoNote07:33
wolfspraulbut I very happily takes those bets, I think you do too, no? :-)07:33
wolfspraulthe other day Jon and I were a little frustrated sitting somewhere07:33
wolfspraulthen I asked him to imagine that we work for resolume.com sales07:34
wolfsprauland we have to sell some crappy tiny new features in our crappy proprietary software to so and so many customers before the end of the month07:34
wpwrakmaybe 10-20 m1 in active use. in half a year you'll have your controller. let's say 25% of the m1 users will want one (the rest will long have bought something else). so that's maybe 5 units you'll sell.07:34
wolfspraulfelt better right away :-)07:34
wolfspraulI described my action items.07:35
wolfspraulwhat are the alternatives you have in mind?07:35
wpwrakthe midi controler doens't make sense if you don't want to go beyond m1 with it07:35
wolfspraulif the Amazon Fire would be available in Germany, I would have gotten one for my parents as Christmas gift :-)07:35
wolfspraulI will continue on this product path, it feels and is exactly right.07:36
wolfspraulnanonote, m1, then we see07:36
wolfspraulif others have better things to do - great07:36
wpwrakalternatives: first and foremost, find financing for finishing m1. i don't think you can complete the project without putting more money on the table. and i don't think your own pockets are deep enough.07:36
wolfspraulJon pushed me about speakers earlier this year, which I totally dismissed. until suddenly HTC shelled out 500+ million (!) usd for "dr. dre's beats"07:37
wpwrakgetting m1 rolling will also buy you time07:37
wolfspraulyes agree07:37
wolfspraulwe are on the same page about making our stuff big07:37
wolfspraulinstead of a hobby07:37
wolfspraulscrew hobby07:37
wolfspraulbut if you complain about silence and such - that doesn't worry me, a true contrarian :-)07:37
wolfspraulsilence means something good is happening07:38
wpwrak(speakers) well, one lucky company among probably hundreds :) and they may have been at it for decades07:38
wolfspraulthe herd is always the herd. when we are the herd we have a few years left and then it's over.07:38
wolfspraulno, I think this is a brilliant move07:38
wpwraki'm afraid that in the case of the ben, it simply means that people have left07:39
wolfspraulwish I still had access to Cher to chat with her about it :-)07:39
wolfspraulI don't disagree07:39
wolfspraul10-20 active users is too low though07:39
wolfspraulmaybe 50-100 I think07:39
wpwrakor maybe they're still around, but more of habit than because of something else07:39
wolfspraulWerner - the speaker move is different07:39
wolfspraulthis is not some beggar case07:39
wolfspraulthe tech industry is changing07:40
wolfspraulphones are dead07:40
wolfspraulif Amazon Fire becomes a success, tablets are dead too07:40
wolfspraulPCs are dead, notebooks are dead07:40
wolfspraulwhere's the innovation?07:40
wpwrak(speakers) sure. it's a profitable biz. at least for some. but the htc windfall is pretty unique.07:40
wolfspraulno07:40
wolfspraulI think partially they buy channel, they buy access to channel that is used to lower-margin and lower-cost products.07:41
wolfspraulbecause the phones of the future will cost 50 USD07:41
wolfspraulof the near future07:41
wpwraklet's wait and see how long tablets stay fashionable as "pc killers". most likely, they'll keep the casual and highly mobile segment. but i don't see them as more than a fad in the office.07:42
wolfspraulpeople pay more for their headphones now than for their phone!07:42
wolfspraulthe sources of money towards innovative ideas change07:42
wolfspraulwe need to find the new sources, not chase the old ones07:42
wpwrakyes, many things now simply get commodized07:42
wolfspraulme and Jon are on this07:43
wpwrakindeed. no tablets :)07:43
wpwrakretro is an option. the nanonote fits that segment.07:43
wpwrakgo to places the herd has already vacated and where some new grass has grown since.07:44
wolfspraulI am surprised that it seems the openpandora guys in germany were able to get a 350k EUR investment for their next round of production attempts07:44
wolfspraulby going directly to their community and asking for private investments07:44
wolfspraulgreat move!07:44
wpwrakmaybe you should try that for M1 :)07:44
wolfspraulI really hope they can deliver this time07:44
wolfsprauldefinitely that's an option07:44
wolfspraulbut I don't want to burn through other peoples money unless everybody is clear about the risks07:45
wolfsprauldid you see the latest dr. schaller announcement?07:45
wolfspraulhe will real-soon-now have some gta04 boards07:45
wolfsprauland selling them for 666 EUR07:45
wolfspraulhow about elphel? are they able to move forward from the 353 to 373 as planned for years? so far - not yet.07:46
wolfspraulI think we need to look for opportunities outside this...07:46
wpwrakmaybe what you really need to do is find someone who has fewer scruples than you. then that person can take care of finding the financing ;-)07:47
wolfspraulsure, possible07:47
wolfspraulthat person can happily take all files that we are sharing, right?07:47
wpwrakthat too :)07:47
wolfspraulsince afaik I hold nothing back, it's all there...07:47
rohhm. i somehow dont like the speakers thing. pa stuff is a tricky market. and the stuff is heavy (shipping expensive) and not something people put into their homes (well.. pa != hifi by far)07:47
wolfspraulI won't get into speakers now07:48
wpwrakbut you'd be surprised by how hard it is to get people to steal from you07:48
wpwrakthat is, unless you make a big fuss about protecting your valuables07:48
rohdont like as in 'i dont think thats something to make money out of' ... rather something one does as a hobby (building speakers from parts, and wood.. with time)07:48
wolfspraulroh: I just mentioned it because the Dr. Dre's Beats purchase by HTC surprised so many people07:48
wolfspraullet's say 'everyone'07:48
wolfspraulread the tech press - nobody gets it07:48
wolfspraulneither do I... but then - why did they do it?07:48
wolfspraulcrazy?07:48
wolfspraulcool brand?07:48
wolfspraulno way07:48
rohwolfspraul: i dont know what htc purchased exactly. is that hw?07:49
wolfspraulyou try to get 500 million USD from a bean counter...07:49
rohseems more like a marketing spin to me07:49
wolfspraulyou probably don't even know that brand :-)07:49
wolfspraulyep07:49
wolfspraulwe are all in tech asylum...07:49
wolfspraulthere's a world out there, and in that world people are paying 180 - 600 USD for their *headphones*07:49
wolfspraulsince phone prices are collapsing, that's a smart move to keep the business healthy. make the money not from the phone, but from the headphone you are able to upsell to x% of your phone customers07:51
wpwrakmaybe we should make vibrators. customers should be willing to pay a premium for good quality and an extraordinary user experience.07:51
wolfspraulI talk about real things, not speculation.07:51
wpwrakput a chip inside, add wireless, than it can be programmed. maybe add remote control. though i think this has already been done07:52
wolfspraulso there is no Ya NanoNote that simply upticks all specs, that's true. afaik nobody works on that.07:52
wolfspraulbut the Ben NanoNote tech is very much alive as the basis for the next product, imho07:52
wpwraki think the main spec a ya should uptick is the openness07:52
wolfspraulyes07:53
wolfspraulmechanical mainly07:53
wolfspraullower volume, easier and more interesting customization for anybody07:53
wpwrakyes, mechanical is still a big black hole for us07:53
wolfspraulI want to look into aluminum lasering and milling, long-term plan but eventually I'll get to it.07:53
rohwolfspraul: dont misinterpret a stupidness of loud and (in total numbers) not hat important hipsters07:54
wpwrakideally a ya wouldn't have to be economically successful. develop it to the point where it can function as a product, but don't kill yourself over trying to sell it.07:54
wolfspraulwith m1 we've learnt a lot about acrylic, and that's good. but aluminum could be promising too.07:54
wpwrakif it sells, great. if not, the knowledge is value enough.07:54
wolfspraulroh: I'm talking about financial power to finance innovation.07:54
wpwrakof course, to pull that off, you need something even rarer than investors: sponsors07:54
wolfspraulyou cannot finance innovation with 50 USD products, nobody can07:54
rohi dont know anybody paying 600us$ for headphones. i know people paying some hundred (well.. anything below 60E is a toy), but thats nothing new but because its a real tool (djs, people who work with that stuff)07:55
wolfsprauleither if the volume is low you have no chance to recoup your investment, or if the volume has to be high you cannot take risks on any serious innovation that may be misunderstood (i.e. not sell)07:55
rohwolfspraul: if you want to sell stuff, dont build something expensive and special. build something ubiquitous, which everybody would want and can use07:55
wolfspraulpeople pay thousands of USD for headphones :-)07:55
wolfsprauldo you know how many do that?07:56
wpwrakthat's why i'd hope for a context for the ya where it doesn't have to be a commercial success07:56
wolfspraulI don't07:56
wolfspraulbut that's risky07:56
wolfspraulsee that's my point07:56
wpwraklow risk. if you find sponsorship, you're good :)07:56
wolfspraulwe may be overlooking easier access to financing innovation07:56
wolfspraulbecause we are stuck in what Jon nicely calls the dudeloop07:56
wpwrakyes, social networking :)07:56
rohmaybe you should think about using something like kickstarter... well.. its only for us people but maybe there is a clone who also likes europe and asia07:56
wolfspraulroh: how many people buy a > 300 USD headphone per year?07:57
rohwolfspraul: non i know of.07:57
wpwrakthe wireless cpubrator would kinda get us out of the dudeloop ...07:57
wolfspraulhow many people buy a > 1000 USD headphone per year?07:57
wolfsprauloh I don't know the answers either07:57
roh300E headphones work for years and you get spareparts (beyerdynamics, sennheiser, etc)07:57
wolfspraulbut at least I feel uneasy about that and want to know :-)07:57
wolfspraulyes07:57
wpwrakone good thing about audio is that it appeals to almost everyone. so the potential market is huge. and even the craziest niches may be big enough to survive.07:58
rohwe agree that we dont want to build crap, right? so we build stuff which people do not need to buy multiple times, if its not a) cheap and b) makes sense to own multiple ones.07:58
wolfspraulwhat I can tell you after some years in hardware now is that it is nearly impossible to make an innovative new hardware product if the absolute price of the product is too low07:58
wpwrakand with headphones, it's always the same basic product. whether they're USD 1 or 10k07:59
rohso i think we need something simple, which makes sense to own more than one, which is cheap enough to give away as a gift and it needs to be practical07:59
rohmaybe you need something like a twitter client on ben and wifi on it07:59
wolfspraulif the typical computing categories are all destroyed from a pricepoint perspective, then we need to look for categories outside of the traditional computer industry08:00
rohwolfspraul: i think embedded hw is outside that already.. its rather 'CE'08:00
rohconsumer electronics08:00
wolfspraulI had a realization one day in a restaurant that the steak in front of me cost more than a cheap Android wifi touchphone.08:00
wolfspraulI chewed on that for a while ;-)08:01
wolfspraul(mentally)08:01
wolfspraulthen I realized that I simply have to get my head out of dead or dying categories.08:02
rohack. i also dont see any sense in competing with that markets08:02
wolfspraulnot that I can claim I have found any gold yet...08:02
rohmaybe we should draw a map and cross off stuff till we see whats left08:03
wolfspraulI'm helping a friend with a LED lamp power supply right now08:03
wolfspraulnothing serious just responding to a call of duty08:03
wolfspraulmaybe I learn something08:03
rohbtw.. thats why i do my own homebus devices. everything existing is locked in and not really practical or extensible08:03
rohor horribly expensive08:04
wolfspraulhomebus?08:04
wolfspraulyes sure, I can imagine08:04
wolfspraulone day this open hw stuff we are doing here will really take off08:04
wolfspraulI am 100% sure about that08:04
rohhome automatisation. from switching lights to audiosystem integration and controlling beamers and motors08:04
wolfspraulbut how and when and where - not so sure08:04
wolfspraulthe Ben NanoNote did not take off the way it is, no need to sugarcoat that08:05
wolfspraulbut it remains as an alive pioneering platform08:05
rohtrue.08:05
wolfspraulso let's see...08:05
rohmy bet the major problem there is connectivity08:05
wolfsprauleven if only 2 people are left active, they have a chance to change the world :-)08:06
wolfsprauldon't know08:06
wolfspraulto compete with what?08:06
wolfspraulwith the Android storm?08:06
rohi mean.. i could imagine little girls using it as chat devices if not offline only08:06
wolfspraulthe smartphone that integrated 1 gazillion features?08:06
rohcomptete with the android bottlestorm08:06
wolfspraulof course more features would be nice08:06
rohor in generic with the price battle for mediocre lock-in stuff08:07
wolfspraulmore memory, more pixel resolution, usb host, atben, etc.08:07
rohwolfspraul: all nice. but even with the current spec we could sell loads more devices if you only add ip08:07
wolfspraulip?08:08
roheh. as in tcp-ip. and i fear as nice as it is, atben is not the solution for 'normal customers' but geeks08:08
rohatleast thats the showstopper for every usecase i or somebody else comes up with08:12
wolfspraulI use my notebook to create Ben connectivity08:13
rohwell.. what do i need the ben for then? i already got a linuxcomputer with screen and kbd already then08:14
wolfsprauland actually, we have far too few good software on it now utilizing connectivity, that's one area where I hope we improve a little to have a better starting point once we have the connectivity08:14
wolfspraulmuch more portable08:14
rohi personally would pack it when i go out and have no notebook with me if it would have connectivity08:14
rohas mobile ssh terminal08:15
wolfspraulthen you would want 3g?08:15
rohnope. i got wifi at enough places08:15
wpwrakroh: you're not thinking big enough. important people have personal assistants, bodyguards, drivers. so these can tote the laptop, while the VIPs just have the Ben ;-)08:15
rohwpwrak: too nice. and still needs cables -> not practical -> unrealistic08:16
wolfspraulhttp://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20123652-47/the-best-headphones-in-the-world/08:16
rohconnectivity needs to work without the need for additional devices around (no external wifi sticks, usbcables etc)08:17
wpwrakroh: your underlings can also handle the cables for you ;-)08:17
wpwrak"The $10,000 amp is a magnificent work of industrial design, and it's handcrafted in NYC."08:18
wolfspraulso "the headphone market is expanding at rapid rate"08:18
wolfspraulaha08:18
wolfspraulwe dismiss that?08:18
wolfspraulbullshit08:18
wolfspraulmarketing08:18
wolfspraulidiot cool kids08:18
wolfspraulany other dismissal ideas?08:18
wolfspraulwhat's happenign to the notebook market?08:19
rohwolfspraul: dont get off-set by high-end audio crazies.08:19
wolfspraulhmm08:19
wolfspraulno no08:19
wolfsprauljust an example08:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: how are your ME skills ? ;-)08:19
rohwhats happening? nothing. serious business notebooks still are at 1500-2000euro08:19
wolfspraulhere's another thought I had the other day08:20
rohnothing new. you only get faster stuff with more ram etc. but you still shell out the 4000deutschmark ;) every 3-5 years for the same level of quality08:20
wolfspraulI know, because I was there. In the 1980's, regular professionals, dads with families, saved for months (!) to be able to buy a "home computer".08:20
wolfspraulfor 2000 USD08:21
wolfspraulthen they bought peripherals, for 500-1000 USD each maybe08:21
wolfspraulhow many such people existed in the 80's?08:21
wolfspraulhundreds of thousands, millions08:21
wolfspraulso why on earth did they do that?08:21
wpwrakthe good old days, when china was still a distant mysterious country :)08:21
wolfspraulwhat could they do with those "home computers"?08:21
rohnah.  you overestimate08:21
wolfspraulthese people helped finance the PC revolution/innovation08:22
wolfspraulI think the money is still the same nowadays, but it goes elsewhere08:22
rohmost people had real low end stuff. i know nobody who had a 'new computer' in the 90s even. we all scraped stuff together from siblings, aunts, uncles etc.. used hw from businesses...08:22
wolfspraulif we come out with a 2000 USD 'open' smartphone, we sell 200 of it, worldwide08:22
Action: C-Keen would buy one08:23
rohbusiness financed the pc revolution. having machines only half as expensive as before because there were more than one vendor for a change which supplied isa cards08:23
wolfspraulC-Keen: :-)08:23
wolfspraulI know we would have a good chance at findings those few crazy guys :-)08:23
valhallaimho there is a big difference between "standalone connectivity", "connectivity with a small stick" and "connectivity only through a device that does everything the nn does, but better"08:23
wolfspraulmy point was that the people and money still exist08:24
wolfspraulbut the money goes elsewhere now08:24
wpwrakto patent trolls ;-)08:24
C-Keenwolfspraul: I have had a openmoko at my former job but it was a bit disappointing, as the processor was underpowered for almost all UIs there were (and it had some serious HW bugs)08:24
wolfspraulwhich I cannot even complain about08:25
wolfspraulso the way to kick new life into the NanoNote is to find a new business opportunity08:25
rohmaybe?08:25
C-Keenthe nanonote is dead ? :)08:25
wolfspraulC-Keen: sure I can understand08:25
rohmake it sync with exchange ;)08:25
roh*ducks*08:26
wolfspraulbuy one at https://sharism.cc08:26
C-Keenwolfspraul: but I learned that not making the HW part is difficult and expensive, but manufacturing an actual working casing is08:26
C-Keenwolfspraul: *another* one?08:26
wolfsprauland two atben so they can talk08:27
wolfsprauljust for the heck of it08:27
wolfspraul:-)08:27
rohwpwrak: if its a usb question.. have you asked CareBear\ ?08:27
C-Keen;)08:27
wolfspraulroh: do you know anything about aluminum milling/lasering/etc ?08:27
rohonly a bit08:28
C-Keenwolfspraul: so business with sharism.cc is not going too well?08:28
rohi have never lasered metal, so i dunno that. i milled aluminium (simple stuff)08:28
wolfspraulC-Keen: hard to say, what exactly do you want to know?08:29
wolfspraulI'm happy :-)08:29
wolfspraulbusiness is never really going well, right? :-)08:30
wpwrakroh: so far, we'd need someone with a good dose of clairvoyance :) it's simply that nothing happens.08:30
wolfspraulI am focusing on selling 2 products - Ben NanoNote and Milkymist One08:30
C-Keenwolfspraul: I wanted to know whether you are happy :)08:30
wolfspraulI sell maybe 5-10 nanos a month08:30
wolfspraulm1 hard to say, just launched. since launch sold about 40, but none in the last week.08:30
C-Keenwell that's quite a lot considering it is a bit of a niche product08:31
wolfspraulnone of this is a real cash generating business, for sure08:31
wolfspraulyou want one? :-)08:31
wolfspraul499 USD + shipping08:31
wolfsprauland then...08:31
wolfspraulTHE LEARNING EXPERIENCE08:31
wolfspraulinvaluable08:31
wolfspraulyou will wake up with new realizations each day :-)08:32
wolfspraulyour life will never be the same again! you should try!08:32
C-Keensounds too good to be true!08:32
C-Keen;)08:32
wolfspraulyep08:32
wolfspraulmake yourself a christmas gift...08:32
wolfspraulseriously I love the product08:32
wolfspraulwhether it will be a 'success' or not is too early to tell08:33
wolfspraulwe try08:33
wolfspraulI think it deserves a fair shot08:33
wolfspraulWerner has been doing such incredible work that I need longer than all EU countries to pay off my intellectual debts to him08:33
C-Keen;)08:33
Action: wpwrak considers issuing bonds08:33
wolfspraulthere's a lot of things you cannot learn or realize unless you get your hands dirty08:34
wolfspraulotherwise you stay at the Ron-level (sorry Ron :-))08:34
C-Keenthis applies to almost everything08:34
C-Keenlearning is doing08:34
wolfspraulin that sense M1 is a wonderful experience and I cannot complain having sold so many units by now08:34
wolfspraul100% of rc2, and 50% of rc3 by now08:34
wolfspraulwho could expect more08:34
wolfspraulso I am very happy, really08:35
C-Keenwill there be another revision of the nanonote?08:35
wolfspraulhe08:35
wolfspraulyou ask so innocent :-)08:35
Action: C-Keen whistles08:35
wolfspraulthat's what started this chat burst08:35
C-Keenoops08:35
Action: C-Keen reads backlog08:35
wolfspraulyes, thanks08:36
C-Keensorry, I don't want to troll08:36
wolfspraulno way08:36
wolfspraulwe have a high troll tolerance here I think08:37
wolfspraulI challenge you that you cannot beat it08:37
wolfspraul:-)08:37
wolfspraulprotect trolls08:38
C-Keenwhat's ingenic?08:39
wolfspraulthe chip maker that makes the CPU in the Ben NanoNote08:40
wolfspraulwww.ingenic.cn08:40
C-Keenah08:40
wolfspraulroh: I think you underestimate the changes in the notebook market since the ipad08:42
wolfspraulof course tablets may still go away, be a fad, etc. who knows the future...08:42
wolfspraulbut. I can tell you any investment in anything notebook related has a lot more risk alarms going off now, because you have to bet against the tablet hype (real or not).08:43
C-Keenas I see it, there is a trend back to specialised small (and cheap) devices and general purpose computers will only play a role for geeks and professionals08:43
wolfspraulI would question the (and cheap)08:44
rohwolfspraul: ipads arent computers08:45
wolfspraulAcer for example is hard hit in many ways from all this. I read an interview with their CEO, where he first tries to motivate the entire 'notebook industry' to be more daring and invest in innovation, and then in the same interview he goes on to praise his new line that is more low-cost than before, etc.08:45
C-Keenwell the low end android tablets are ~99 EUR here, for people that want to do webmail and surfing. There people would have bought a ~600 EUR PC before08:45
wolfspraulthat's bizarre08:45
rohits a toy, nothing to work with seriously outside of management (<5%)08:45
wolfspraul:-)08:46
wolfspraulmanagement is not serious? :-)08:46
wolfspraulI think you underestimate this.08:46
rohi dont think they (tablets) will vanish completely again, but they are quite limited, expensive and only good for low end tasks (resolution and usability wise)08:46
C-Keenmy point is that most consumers are satisfied with low end tasks08:47
rohtried inputting a text into a tablet before? its hell. regardless if apple, google or expensive or cheap. touchscreens are not keyboards.08:47
wolfsprauloh I will not get one08:47
wolfspraulbut if the Amazon Fire would be available in Germany now, I would get one as christmas gift for my parents08:47
C-Keenroh: and I thought typing SMS text on a number keypad is awkward but any teeny on the tram can outperform me there tenfold08:47
rohmanagement is no market. the mass of devices is bought by the regular joe user, not mr management. remember.. there are thousands of joes for every 'manager'08:48
wolfspraulthey can get started, then a year later buy the next version with camera etc.08:48
wolfspraulI think notebooks will continue to stay where they are now08:48
wolfspraulslowly eroding prices08:49
rohC-Keen: maybe. but i still outperform a teeny on a smartphone even with keys when i got a 84-105 key keyboard and i can still type full real english while the kid uses some kind of abbreviated broken stuff08:49
wolfspraulbut most importantly - nobody will touch anything major in the product anymore08:49
wolfspraulthe supply chain has no money, down to the last participant08:49
C-Keenroh: I agree, my point is that there are more teenies in the market than people like me and you08:49
rohwolfspraul: nobody did the last 10 years. so thats nothing new08:49
wolfspraulyes but people will be bored of notebooks, want something new08:50
rohwolfspraul: i got notebooks around which are from 1996. they have THE SAME features as new ones. just slower, and less performing08:50
wolfspraulwhich the notebook manufacturers will not have08:50
rohso what?08:50
rohyou remember how lightswitches work? check the 'innovation' there the.. last 100 years. none08:50
rohdoes it matter? not really.08:51
wolfspraulah yes. agreed. but we are looking for ways to finance innovative hardware, hardware that has complex software stacks inside.08:51
wolfsprauland I think it will be in embedded somewhere, outside of traditional computer categories.08:51
rohi think the new thing is that 'stuff communicates'08:52
rohthats the only change which is new in 'devices'08:52
wolfsprauland whether you are still so positive about notebooks, let's see in 2-3 years08:52
wolfspraulmaybe they force you to buy a Dell notebook with Windows preinstalled and you have to run Linux in a virtual machine :-)08:52
roheven ms and apple got that (see daap, dmap, etc... upnp/dlna)08:52
wolfsprauljust kidding, just kidding08:52
wolfspraulwhen the money disappears, things can get ugly quick, because lots of people withdraw08:53
C-Keenat least in my peer group notebooks are drop in replacements for desktops for most people08:53
rohC-Keen: ack. i also only know a few people using stationary machines now.08:53
wolfspraulgamers still go for it08:53
wolfsprauland people that really want the absolute lowest-cost, or has that changed already?08:54
rohwe got 'some few' shared ones (the lasercutter has one, the cnc mill has one... our shared eating table has one) .. but personal machines are all laptops nowadays08:54
rohwolfspraul: these people use something like an eeepc08:54
rohlowest-cost includes power. and stationary machines from 2-3 years ago (and everything atx-ish) eats about 200-300W easily08:55
roha netbook eats 20W08:55
C-Keenthat has changed wolfspraul, I bought a used thinkpad T61 for 160 EUR, as these machines are being replaced in all companies that used them for 3 years08:55
rohthats about 30E atleast difference in montly power savings already08:55
rohC-Keen: good pick. (besides the nvidia gpu) ;)08:55
C-Keenroh: oh well I live mostily in textland08:56
wolfspraulah08:58
wolfspraultextland08:58
wolfspraulJon believes we should make the NanoNote all about console08:58
wolfspraulhe thinks hacking text in console is cool and will attract people08:58
wolfspraulgive them access to the guts...08:59
rohwolfspraul: maybe not the worst idea. has only quite limited amounts of pixels08:59
rohbut for 'endusers' that will fail08:59
wolfspraulit's very easy to change in the image, and our console support is quite good08:59
wolfsprauljust saying because C-Keen mentioned textland...08:59
rohmeh. now.. up to the postoffice. need to pick up a letter they wouldnt deliver for some weird reason09:00
wolfsprauloh09:07
wolfspraulthat was the trick they tried once to arrest me :-)09:07
wolfsprauldidn't work though, I have my 6th sense09:07
C-Keenwhat happened?09:08
wolfsprauldisagreement over how to best serve my country :-)09:10
C-Keenah :)09:12
wolfspraulbut what I learnt was how easily the postal service sold itself out to cheap tricks like a letter they 'wouldn't deliver for some weird reason', so I was smiling09:14
wolfspraulgood old times (new times are also good :-))09:15
wolfspraulC-Keen: if you have a NanoNote, what do you use it for?09:15
C-Keenwolfspraul: note taking, keeping track of expenses while on the road, ogg player and occasionally playing interactive fiction09:25
wolfspraulnot bad09:26
wolfspraulinteractive fiction, hmm09:27
wolfspraulI wish that ifarchive site would have more easily identifiable free stuff, but alas, they don't09:27
wolfspraultheir worry for freedom stops with themselves :-)09:27
C-Keenyes09:29
wolfspraulsince you asked about sales earlier, the one thing that is not good yet is that afaik we sold only 1 m1 to a nanonote customer09:29
wolfspraulI haven't made a real push/outreach to nanonote customers yet, but some should have noticed the m1 by now09:29
C-Keenm1 = milkymist?09:29
wolfspraulthat goes along Werner's line that the few nanonote users that are hanging out on the list or elsewhere are mostly not interested in new stuff anymore09:29
wolfspraulyes09:30
wolfspraulmilkymist one, sorry09:30
wolfspraul:-)09:30
wolfspraulit's a 499 USD product compared to the 99 USD nanonote09:30
wolfspraulbut if we built up some trust, we should be able to sell some m1 to nanonote customers09:30
wolfspraulso far that was only 1 case09:30
wolfspraulthat is not good09:30
wolfspraulsince the new product is 5 times more expensive, let's say maybe it's even an option only for 10% of nanonote customers09:31
rohmeh09:31
rohthe thing which didnt fit into the mailbox is a vinyl disc from uk *g*09:31
C-Keenwell they are quite different. the nanonote being an inexpensive ultra portable device you could hand out to your kids against a (inexpensive, compared to others) video processing platform09:31
wolfspraulanyway that's one thing that hasn't worked out09:31
C-Keenso I can imagine that people that buy a nanonote don't need to be attracted by the m109:32
valhallaalso, spending 99USD for something you don't have a real use for is one thing, spending 499 USD is another, even if you like the project09:33
C-Keenthat too09:33
rohi mean.. i like vinyl somehow, sometimes.. its just so ucky to package and ship09:33
valhalla(not saying that I don't use the NN, it's just that I could have used other devices I already own to do the same things)09:34
C-Keenvalhalla: what do you use it for?09:34
valhallamostly to read my (git managed) grocery list while shopping and playing music09:35
C-Keenoh and freedroid :p09:36
rohhm. music... bad topic. anybody an idea which music player can handle roughly 250-300gbyte of mp3, flac, ogg etc (stuff gstreamer can decode) music?09:36
valhallait's also always in my handbag, and sometimes I take quick notes, or play games while waiting in a unexpected queue09:36
rohah.. and for a funny additional thing.. 'sync that back and forth' ;)09:36
valhallaroh: why is music bad topic?09:36
rohvalhalla: its unsolved. even in proprietary systems (most handle it worse)09:36
C-Keenroh: I would use unison for syncing and not rely on the music playing software09:36
rohC-Keen: the issue is not syncing the raw files. its syncing the content, metadata changes etc09:37
rohi havent seen a working 3-way diff of mp3 file metadata09:37
C-Keenroh: but the metadata is surely manifested somewhere?09:37
valhallaI use git annex to sync, and keep oggs on SD and flac on an external hard disk; also I don't really have metadata other than that is embedded in the files09:37
valhallaand it doesn't change09:38
rohC-Keen: in a per-fileformat special container.. mp3 its usually id3.. ogg its somewhere in there.. etc.09:38
rohand it DOES change.. e.g. when i fix tags.09:38
C-Keenroh: ah I see, you are on your own with that09:38
C-Keenroh: most syncing software your do a rolling hash and sync the whole file (like rsync)09:39
valhallagit + git-annex would work if the metadata was in another file (which it isn't)09:39
rohwell.. it fails on the size of my stash already. ive seen itunes etc bail when they try importing it09:39
valhallaI wonder how hard it would be to add support for ogg metadata in straight git09:40
rohmmh.. git performs badly with loads of stuff.09:40
valhallamostly with big stuff rather than loads of it09:40
rohi know. i administrated git-servers on which some loonies develop linux kernels ;)09:40
rohat some point its really a ressource hog. but hey.. compared to what it does its ok09:41
rohbut it _really_ needs memory sometimes.. and it _really_ wants its sockets to be available.. or weird things happen09:42
rohanyhow... harddisks need to get really expensive to make flash cheap enough for such collections on the go and have fun09:43
rohbtw.. anybody played with usb3 yet?09:44
rohas in.. is it fun? with linux? does it make disk-io bearable?09:44
bartbesroh: did you see the prices of hdds lately?09:44
rohyep. more than doubled09:45
bartbeswell then..09:45
bartbesalso, have you tried mpd?09:46
rohnot by far useable09:48
rohi currently use rhythmbox and do not own any mobile player.09:48
bartbesnot usable?09:49
bartbeswhy?09:49
rohmpd? shitty userinteface. broken concept about its content 'management'09:49
C-Keenthere is not content management ;)09:50
rohyou see?09:50
bartbeswhat management are you looking for then?09:50
bartbesalso, you can't simply judge the ui of a server..09:50
rohbartbes: basically working daap support.09:52
bartbesright09:52
rohi also use it to copy stuff around (you can just dragndrop files from remote daap servers into your local collection09:53
rohpush would be nice... but one cannot have everything09:53
bartbesthe solution is obviously itunes :P09:54
rohnope. that one can do less (no copying, no proper codec support)09:54
bartbes":P" should have told you I was joking09:54
wolfspraulroh: sorry going back to the earlier chat... please keep us posted about your home automation projects and thoughts10:26
wolfspraulI think there are many opportunities there, somewhere10:26
wolfspraulas you said right now there are a lot of locked and/or overly expensive systems, for understandable reasons10:26
wolfspraulor we all wait until Apple makes the brilliant iHome system and then the whole world is happy10:27
wolfspraulI think that won't happen, but the smaller manufacturers may struggle getting all the tech pieces together and not having their r&d costs explode10:27
wolfspraulthat's where open hardware can help, if we do it right. we just have to search for the right opportunity, so please holler and share your discoveries10:28
kristianpaulwolfspraul: if you mean that archive.org content is not integrate with any software, you should see/try banshee16:14
kristianpaulif you mearn in the early chat :)16:15
xiangfu_there is seems some conflict on ks7010 and 802154 stuff. have to figure out tomorrow. 16:28
xiangfu_that is the only thing I didn't test more. now it have problem again. 16:28
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: wpwrak: thanks for best wirshes, seems it helped :-D17:20
jow_laptop(win 517:21
jow_laptopfail17:21
jow_laptopsorry17:21
kristianpauland not trying to maker an iphoen after this http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=1970 ;-)20:42
kristianpaul(kidding)20:42
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