#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2011-11-05

kristianpaultalk run just on time..00:43
kristianpaulamazing how 23 slides nca take you long ..00:43
kristianpaulpeople got interesed on nanonote (again), let see if we can arrange a group buy :)00:44
Action: kristianpaul sigh00:44
wpwraknice :)00:53
kristianpauleven i got some posible client for sysmocom in the ecuator, i just point they to then01:11
kristianpaulnow i need to confirm if the EE guys work with verilog, and the introduce M1 to then ;)01:12
blogicwpwrak: pingy10:54
wpwrakblogic: pong12:16
Aylawhat would be the best way to secure a communication channel between a device and a server?13:41
wolfspraulfeel like in a quiz show ;-)13:43
wolfspraulwhat's the context?13:43
Aylait's a project for school13:43
AylaI have to connect securely a bunch of Android tablets to a server13:44
Aylathe tablet sends an user ID and a password13:44
Aylabut that shouldn't transit unencrypted13:44
wolfsprauldoes Android have ssh?13:45
Aylaerr... maybe, but that's a bit overkill13:45
AylaI'm thinking about using pre-shared keys13:47
Aylabut I'm not sure if it's the best idea, the server would have to know the key of each tablet13:49
Aylaunless all the tablets have the same private key, but then it's not that secure13:49
xiangfuAyla, root the android. install busybox then openvpn :)13:51
Aylathat's not an option13:52
wpwrakssl ? :)13:56
Aylayou mean tls14:01
Aylathat's what I'm talking about14:01
blogicandroid has pptp and ipsec build in14:02
blogicso that would work ootb14:02
Aylaand what would be the advantage of ipsec vs. using TLS directly for instance?14:13
blogicdo you just want to send some data or do you want to tunnel all traffic ?14:14
blogicif you just need a secure webpage use ssl14:14
blogicif you want to tunnel lots of traffic use a vpn14:15
blogicand if you use vpn then ipsec and pptp will be working ootb14:15
blogicopenvpn needs root + busybox14:15
AylaI just need to send some data14:15
Aylaand just for one app14:16
Aylavpn is a system-wide feature, we don't want that14:16
blogicuse ssl then14:30
Aylais it possible to cypher only one way, from the Android tablet to the server?14:32
Aylasomething like HTTPS14:32
AylaI need to secure only from the tablet to the server14:33
blogicwpwrak: what is newer14:34
blogicah silly question14:35
blogici am rebasing the wpan support on 3.114:35
blogictrying to figure out what inside net/ieee802154/* from the qi-kernel is already in 3.114:35
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-11042011-0846/14:37
xiangfublogic, Hi14:38
xiangfublogic, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/tmp/0031-first-patch-for-atBen.patch14:38
xiangfublogic, I have done some works. 14:39
blogicme too14:39
xiangfuand we should move the set-atben-GPIO to spi_atben.c (to his module). now. it is in board-qi_lb60.c14:39
blogici am usig the usb14:40
blogici dont have a ben14:40
xiangfublogic, thanks for the wpan.mk.14:40
xiangfublogic, I am using two ben for test now. 14:41
blogici will push it in owrt later14:41
blogiconce the 3.1 update works14:41
blogici also packaged dirtpan14:42
blogicwhat was the other thgn i need low6pan or so14:42
xiangfu(packaged dirtpan)  yes. cool. I am using that one in openwrt-package. 14:43
xiangfublogic, one question. what is 'fakehard' for? seems I don't needs this in ben nanonote. 14:44
blogicah its there already ?14:44
blogicits a fakehw14:44
blogicand fakelr simulates a number of fakehard14:44
blogici think :D14:44
blogici just openwed the box with the 2 atusb things this morning and started portin drivers14:44
xiangfublogic, checkout here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/ben-wpan14:45
xiangfublogic, we should thanks to kyak. :)14:46
xiangfu2 atusb. great. you are using openwrt on your pc?(x86)14:49
wpwrak(opened -> porting) cool ! ;-)14:49
wpwrakxiangfu: how do you switch between mmc and atben ?14:49
xiangfuwpwrak, not yet. I am still testing. compile as module. and load mmc by default. 14:50
blogicxiangfu: using a lantiq based dsl router with usb :D14:50
xiangfuwpwrak, I am thinking first step will be let people manually run some modprobe command.14:50
wpwrakxiangfu: for atben, that sounds good. but is there a use case with root on uSD ? if yes, then MMC would have to be in the kernel or a module in an initramfs14:51
wpwrakif it's in the kernel, i'm not sure if unbinding MMC and then loading atben works. of course, if it does, that would elegantly solve the problem14:52
xiangfuwpwrak, (root on uSD) wow. I didn't think of that. too bad. :(14:54
wpwrakthat's the case that's been keeping me from pushing towards a merge into the distro :) but if we figure this one out now, even better :)14:55
xiangfublogic, so if we have lantiq based dsl router with usb. then Ben nanonote will have wireless in home. :)15:01
xiangfublogic, is this router have wifi?15:01
blogicits just a random board with usb i had15:02
blogicnot doing what it should but doing something15:34
blogicthis is 3.115:34
viric'fsync' is a heavy operation on a SD card...19:20
fk15_guesthey? :)20:17
fk15_guesthm well either way been having fun reading through the older logs but if thats ok I'm wondering if anyone here could share any thoughts on ARM verus PowerPC for general processors on embedded boards?20:56
Aylais PPC good for embedded?21:02
Aylaisn't it a bit too power-hungry?21:02
fk15_guestayla 1.6W? :)21:03
Ayla1.6W is enormous21:04
Aylait depends of your needs actually21:04
fk15_guestoh sorry yeah you just made me realize, I'm not that nitpicky to be measuring in milliwatts but at same time I'll like to avoid something that uses quite many watts like say 65W21:07
fk15_guestis that making sense to you now?21:07
Aylawhat will the CPU be used for?21:08
fk15_guestdesktop os for most part, nothing fancy tho so you gamers and whats not better look somewhere else heh21:13
fk15_guestbeen trying different setups for quite some time and finally decided it'll be much easier if I just made the board myself21:14
Ayladesktop OS? On a board? ...21:14
fk15_guesta few people think I'm maybe crazy but I don't mind it21:15
Aylayou'd need a light OS21:17
Aylayou can have a look at the Panda board or the Rapsberry Pi21:18
Aylasomething like Meego could run fine on those21:20
fk15_guestyeah I had thought about meego, on top of a few others like netbsd or qnx just to name two21:23
fk15_guestand mm I've looked at these sort of small boards before, the problem with them in my case is the few onboard i/o on top of no conventional pci or cardbus for expansions21:25
fk15_guestI do find them interesting to look at tho21:25
AylaQNX, a desktop OS? :)21:29
Aylayou're really masochist :)21:30
fk15_guestayla haha well you should have tried the two older boot images they gave21:31
fk15_guestespecially the one that managed to fit a decent qnx into just a single diskette21:31
Aylawell I tried QNX on my dreamcast back in the day21:32
fk15_guestayla the dreamcast was supposed to support windows ce didn't it?21:32
fk15_guestI think even the netbsd ports list has dreamcast on there too21:32
Aylawindows CE was supposed to support the dreamcast21:32
Aylathe console in itself does not have any OS21:32
fk15_guestayla yeah. by the way if you did not know, there was supposed to be an iomega zip 100mb drive specifically for the dreamcast but it never really materalized21:33
Aylasome games do use windows CE, but most of them use SEGA's own OS21:33
fk15_guestthat would had been one way to run an os perhaps21:33
Aylayes, there was one on ebay maybe one year ago21:33
fk15_guestif you want something ever more tricky then umm can I say apple piddin? :)21:34
fk15_guestinteresting idea but some bad plannings on their part tho21:34
Aylabut zip is quite obsolete, now the dreamcast can use SD cards21:34
Aylawith some hardware modding21:34
fk15_guestayla that is the funny thing I can not fathom at all. iomega is still selling brand new usb 100mb zip drives in some places, even adjacent to the 250mb ones21:35
fk15_guestwho the hell will EVER buy these anymore when a higher capacity usb thumbdrive costs less21:35
fk15_guesteven the 750mb is useless too. you can get a 1gb thumbdrive can't you? :)21:36
fk15_guestat least iomega still does ok with other non-zip products especially NAS hds21:37
fk15_guestayla anyway what do you usually use for copying/backup these days yourself?21:38
fk15_guestNAS or a server box?21:39
Aylaserver box21:40
fk15_guestI've always thought a bit about one for some time but for now I just have two different external hds on top of the occassional cdrw discs when giving away large lumps of files to someone21:40
Aylausually I upload an archive and give a link :)21:43
fk15_guestheh yeah, well with the way internet is in some areas around here online storage just doesn't work so well21:43
fk15_guestnot blaming anyone including you but mm21:43
fk15_guestayla anyway the reason I asked that cpu question before was because on paper it seem so similiar but I know its probably not so much at all tho. eg both are clocked at 1ghz with a 2.5DMIPS/mhz rate21:46
Action: fk15_guest is trying to avoid the old 'apple vs orange' arguements that has gotten too old with the G4 verus pcs before21:46
AylaI don't know PPC21:47
fk15_guestthanks still, I guess I'll keep reading any more papers I can find in that case21:47
Aylayou probably should take a SoC that has at least a FPU and a GPU anyway21:48
wpwrakfk15_guest: if you don't care much about CPU core speed but need fancy I/O, then maybe milkymist could be interesting for you. it runs on an FPGA. the core is quite slow, only some ~100 MHz, but the FPGA gives you a lot of flexibility.21:49
fk15_guestayla I was thinking of powervr for the gpu. seem like the most economical way to get any 3D graphics without needing a full dedicated gpu such as was with the radeon 7000M before amd-ati eoled it21:49
Aylawpwrak: he wants to run a desktop PC on it :)21:50
Ayladesktop OS*21:50
fk15_guestwpwrak heh thanks for that suggestion but the cpu does actually matter :p21:50
wpwrakAyla: well, M1 does have sort of a "desktop" :)21:51
Aylaif the CPU does matter, then buy a real PC21:51
fk15_guestayla did I have to mention that another reason for powervr was that it supported opengl which is probably tons easier than trying to relay on software rendering all the times right? :)21:51
wpwrakfk15_guest: ah, pity21:51
Aylawpwrak: oh yeah?21:51
fk15_guestoh I meant to ask, whats M1? I've noticed it a few times in the logs but no links21:52
wpwrakAyla: there's a bit of a GUI with settings dialogs and editor. no shell but i think that could be easily added if someone needed it (it has a command line)21:52
wpwrakfk15_guest: milkymist.org21:53
fk15_guestoh didn't realized that was short for M1 mm ok thanks21:53
Aylaso you want a decent CPU, and display 3D graphics21:53
Aylaand you want a board21:53
Aylahmmm .....21:53
wpwrakfk15_guest: it's an FPGA-based SoC, designed to be a video synthesizer. the "magic" is in the graphics subsystem21:53
wpwrakah, you know it already. alright21:54
fk15_guestayla well it doesn't have to be full blown 3D like in games but at least something that could deal with minor renderings21:54
fk15_guestand can I tell you what I was thinking of in term of the cpu?21:54
Aylathen get a Panda board :p21:54
fk15_guestcortex-a9, -a15, or ibm powerpc 400 series21:58
fk15_guestthis isn't set into stone tho....yet ;)21:58
AylaIIRC the Panda board has a Cortex A9 with a PowerVR GPU21:59
fk15_guestwpwrak that milkymist thing is rather interesting btw22:00
Aylawpwrak: hey, that milkymist is interesting22:00
AylaI'm reading the PDF paper about the CPU you implemented in VHDL22:01
wpwrakit's not me who implemented it. that's all sebastien's work :)22:01
wpwrakand it's in verilog :)22:01
fk15_guestayla one other reason I picked these two particular cpu series as I'm sure these panda/etc people knew of too was that it could run with minimal or no active cooling at all22:02
Aylait's written VHDL on the website22:02
wpwrakand yes, damn interesting. it doesn't look like much, but it's actually amazingly efficient22:02
AylaI did learn ARM at school, and I believe that it's badly designed22:03
wpwrak"Verilog HDL" or "VHDL" ? :)22:03
Aylait lacks registers mainly, so there are too much load/store necessary that could have been saved with more general-purpose registers22:04
fk15_guestayla hmm well I'll see which of the two I finally think to go along with eventually then22:05
Aylawpwrak: Very-high speed integrated circuits Hardware Description Language22:06
Ayla= VHDL22:06
Aylait's different from Verilog22:07
fk15_guestayla I was thinking of this for expansion, it kinda kills two birds with one stone tho since it also provides media reader as part of the same chip too http://www.ricoh.com/LSI/product_pcif/pcc/5c847/index.html22:12
fk15_guestjust if you wanted to know about that22:12
wpwrakAyla: (vhdl) yes, i know. but i don't see where milkymist.org claims that it's written in VHDL.22:12
Aylayeah, I don't see it either :)22:13
Aylait's written Verilog HDL, it tricked my mind22:13
wpwrakah, good :)22:13
Aylathe milkymist is interesting, but at 526.50 euros, it's a bit too much for me22:14
fk15_guestthats a bit too expensive for me too -_-22:16
fk15_guestwpwrak and ayla want hear what I had been thinking about in term of the hardware design I was working toward on?22:20
fk15_guest1-2ghz processor, intergrated powervr graphic core, single ddr2 sodimm socket I assume, yamaha or cirrus audio dsp, jmicron sata controller for how else do I get storage otherwise, a few other i/o including a usb host core, pcmcia or pcmcia/pci expansions, and a few more smaller details22:24
fk15_guestI've done a few homemade pci cards so I do kinda have some sense of pci i/o stuffs a bit, might need to work on it some more tho22:25
fk15_guestI know that the audio dsp may be a little overboard but think I'll like to try it still22:28
Aylawell... good luck :p22:28
fk15_guestayla thanks :p22:29
fk15_guestayla I actually built two of these few pci cards out of fustration with crappy mass-run designs to be honest with you heh!22:29
fk15_guestone was a simple 1+1 ports firewire 400 card that could actually deliver 24W to the single external port22:30
fk15_guestmost of the other cards were just simply for fun tho22:30
AylaI'm not good at doing hardware22:32
fk15_guestI'm not good at some part of it neither22:32
fk15_guestI'm a little more of the 'hmm does this work....nope.....*ZZZTTTT!!*...oh shoot crap' some of these times, so yeah don't ask me to ever work on anything expensive!22:33
fk15_guestis it no wonder I hate modern cars by any means22:33
fk15_guestearly fuel injections are easy to poke around with22:34
fk15_guestanyway just ignore my blabbings :p22:34
fk15_guestbtw I liked what wolfspraul said at 13:19 here http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2011-11-03.log.html22:38
fk15_guesthe's right, I always see way too many alike small projects duplicated left and right online. it just doesn't make much sense tbh22:38
fk15_guestayla you mind if I asked you which country you're from?22:40
fk15_guestcanada here and no I don't even see any snow yet although I did hear that the maine area does have some now22:40
fk15_guestfrance? nice22:40
fk15_guesthow about you wpwrak?22:41
fk15_guestayla I would admit I only know just a few basic french words tho :s22:41
fk15_guestbonjour et merci!22:41
fk15_guestI do love crepes at times tho22:42
fk15_guestsometimes plain, sometimes with chocolate chips. always syrrup on top anytime tho22:43
fk15_guestayla I never could figure out certain food names tho because they are not quite where you thought they came from22:48
fk15_guestenglish muffins didn't actually come from england for example22:48
Aylaerr... ok22:50
wpwrakfk15_guest: i'm austrian, born in switzerland, now living in argentina22:50
fk15_guestwpwrak mm. I find switzerland quite interesting but sadly I've only gone there just once so far :s22:50
Aylafk15_guest: the "french cream" is called "crème anglaise" in France, which can be translated to "english cream"22:51
fk15_guesthm I didn't know that22:52
fk15_guestwpwrak I've been looking at the milkymist for a while, it sure is an interesting thing. I guess the price can be a bit of a deciding factor on how much you would be actually using it22:55
fk15_guestif I had some free money for random things I might had thought about it actually22:55
fk15_guestI kinda like to play with videos of any sort so thats why I'm a bit interested22:59
fk15_guestwpwrak have you heard of the Open Graphics Project?23:16
wpwrakfk15_guest: it's fun to play with :) if you add midi controls, you have a lot of interactive control23:16
fk15_guestexpensive for many people but still an interesting project23:16
fk15_guestwpwrak like I said, if I got some free cash I may have to get one :P23:16
wpwrakfk15_guest: (switzerland) it's nice, but also a bit boring :)23:16
wpwrak(open graphics) dunno. there've been a few. haven't heard much from them for a while23:17
fk15_guestwpwrak I find the idea intresting but I'm not too sure about how praticial an open sourced hardware graphic card design could be23:20
fk15_guestespecially since when you can already more or less do open sourced graphics on pretty much any new or old run of mill cards23:21
fk15_guestopengl that is23:21
fk15_guestwpwrak I know this is a bit of a different topic with some debate but I've always liked displayport over that hdmi thing especially in term of licensings as well23:24
wpwrakyeah, HDMI is full of nasty stuff23:26
fk15_guestas nasty as that bollockful mpeg-la troll too23:26
wpwraklots of stuff that says "bow before us, dirty little customer !"23:26
wpwrakwell, mpeg-la are indeed pretty evil, too :)23:27
fk15_guestI don't understand how meg-la really strayed far away from its original purpose what with owning so many unrelated patents on too many other things23:27
fk15_guestwpwrak beside what you would send down hdmi you can do pretty much the same with displayport as well but at a lower cost :P23:27
fk15_guestI still do have to think about if I'll like to implent a displayport controller or just do with vga instead. I guess I'll have to wait to actually design the graphic core first and see from there23:29
fk15_guestwpwrak oh and mpeg-la is one small part of the various reasons I don't like h264 too much23:29
fk15_guestespecially that time when there was an interview where mpeg-la said that they wouldn't charge users now for online h264 contents but they "may" do so in some future date23:30
fk15_guestits just....stubborn :/23:30
wpwrakisn't HDMI basically DVI-D plus evil ?23:30
fk15_guestwpwrak well the video aspect of hdmi is pretty much exactly just dvi-d yeah23:31
wpwrakoh, the whole codec scene is all wrong23:31
fk15_guestwpwrak one other thing about displayport was that if its implented in the controller on the hardware design you can use more or less a simple specific cable to get vga output from a displayport capable computer. hdmi can't do that without requiring a full d>a converter box23:34
fk15_guestso its not bad for if you ever needed to output to an older display23:34
fk15_guestI don't know the whole technical details on displayport tho23:34
fk15_guestwpwrak there anything else you could think of? I probably could comment on it23:40
wpwrakah, so DP also includes the analog signal ? nice. i never looked much at DP. found it mildly distracting that they would come up with *yet*another* connector just after DVI-I/D and HDMI. i still have a lot of VGA. works great :)23:44
fk15_guestI never really understood dvi. but I would consider displayport a good upgrade over vga tho especially in term of further HD resolutions support23:45
fk15_guestthat is providing the gpu can deal with it23:45
fk15_guestwpwrak one thing you should keep in mind is that displayport deals with a lot more than just video23:47
fk15_guestit has digital audio stream aside to a few extra lines that can be used for just about any other data you would want with no limit23:48
fk15_guestsay unpowered firewire, touchscreen feedback, or whatever else you can think of23:49
fk15_guestused to be touchscreen would usually need two cables, one for vga and other for either serial or usb. but with displayport you now have just a single cable as it should had been meant23:50
fk15_guestoh and wpwrak before I almost forgot, one of the offical aim of displayport was to replace the propertiary-ish LVD too. so you could have a laptop that only had one single controller for both the internal and external screens23:52
fk15_guestplus did I have to mention that the webcam, mic, etc can be funneled through that same hingle cord too?23:52
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