#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-11-03

qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: bonnie: useful tool to determine the speed of your filesystem (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/114eb6b02:34
wpwrakhmm, if anyone has a "normal" Ben11:15
wpwrakup and running, could they please run these commands ?11:16
wpwrakpoke 0x1000006811:16
wpwrakpoke 0x1002100811:16
wpwrakthat'll show how fast the MMC bus is running. my bens are all in a bit of a weird configuration :)11:17
wolfspraulwpwrak: 0x10000068 = 0xd, 0x10021008 = 0x612:42
ps2chiperhow much does the milkymist soc cost?12:45
wolfspraulit's free12:46
wolfspraulthe lm32 core is under a permissive open source license, the rest that was mostly/all written by Sebastien under gplv312:47
ps2chiperto put it another way, how much do you need to pay the fab to make it for you?12:47
wolfsprauloh that's a long subject12:47
ps2chiperthats what beoran4 wants to know12:48
wolfspraulI'm glad you are interested though :-)12:48
wolfspraulyes but with any good questions the answer is not easy12:48
wolfspraulrunning the design in an fpga is also a chip, right?12:48
wolfsprauland if you like another process, there are many to choose from12:48
wolfspraulwait, I lookup a nice 3-series article I read recently12:48
ps2chiperbeoran4 just wants a avr chip that is similar in power to the gameboy advance so he can make his own shanzhai handheld12:49
beoran4well, I'm not against using fgpa's as long as they can be very cheap 12:49
beoran4ps2chiper: yes, that's the goal really,12:49
ps2chiperwhen you look up articles, there not cheap12:50
beoran4it doesn't even have to be avr12:50
ps2chiperwell i think for your simplicity it does12:50
ps2chiperif you start using external ram and flash, your pcb complexity goes up12:50
beoran4ps2chiper: yes, or something similarly simple :)12:50
wolfspraulhere, not bad... http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/chip-design-open-source-and-diy-part-1-indie-chip-design12:52
wolfspraulbut it sounds like you guys are still in high-level/dreaming mode :-)12:53
ps2chiperto put it another way, how much money do you spend per soc to the fabs?12:53
wolfspraulme? nothing, I have never worked with a foundry12:53
wolfspraulnot there yet12:53
wolfspraul(and not needed right now)12:53
ps2chiperim working on opencola12:54
wolfspraulhe, cool12:55
wolfspraulI had never heard of that before12:55
ps2chiperits the gpl cola12:55
ps2chiperBeoran4 is a master chemist12:55
beoran4master's degree... but my programming is more masterful :p12:56
beoran4since that's my day job12:56
beoran4hmm, designing a chip myself would take this project too far12:56
ps2chiperbeoran4, you cant get a straight answer from this channel, only helpful nudges12:57
ps2chiperwolfspraul, do you know of any avr chips that have 512KB of ram and flash?12:58
beoran4right now, some hinds on what cpu to use would be useful 12:58
wolfspraulno I don't know13:00
wolfspraulbeoran4: what do you want to design/manufacture exactly, and for what purpose?13:00
beoran4a hand held game, that is as cheap and simple as possible , but still open and relatively easy to program for everyone 13:01
beoran4in othe rwords, an open source GBA/GBA SP 13:01
beoran4equivalent 13:01
beoran4but the cards shoulkd probably be SD cards13:02
wolfspraulwow, big project13:02
beoran4so you can have many games on one card13:02
ps2chiperwolfspraul helped make the nanonote13:02
beoran4in essence it's "simple"r than tha nano note13:03
beoran4I'd probaby resue exising case designs too 13:03
ps2chiperyou can use the gba advance carts and make it usb programmable if you want a nonelastic effect on people.13:04
beoran4I know it's a big project, so it will take time 13:04
ps2chiperI think right now, for wolfspraul, its beer o'clock13:05
beoran4ps2chiper: hmmm, the cards are not that ubiquituous, and programmable gba cards are illegal in several european countries (due to piracy) 13:05
beoran4if he wants beer, we have plenty tasty ones here in belgium13:05
beoran4wolfspraul: can I bribe you with belgian beer? :)13:05
ps2chiperwolfspraul is the frenchmans natural enemy13:06
ps2chipera german13:06
beoran4ah, but I'm not french 13:06
ps2chiperno, but your beer may be13:06
beoran4French beer? What a joke. :)13:06
ps2chiperthats how world war 1 was started, by that joke. just kidding13:07
beoran4Ok, we have beer in wallonia (french speaking belgium) ,but france? That's just like dutch beer, whihc we call "camel's p*ss" 13:07
ps2chiperhow do you say "camel piss" in french?13:09
beoran4this is probably the best possible13:10
beoran4256kb flash13:10
beoran4if you take more flash then there's no SD card13:11
beoran4although they have with 512bk flash but that would be USB programmable only13:11
ps2chiperhmm, is 128KB enough ram for you?13:12
beoran4it's not much, you'd need external ram I think13:13
beoran4so, maybe not this one then?13:13
beoran4perhaps I should go for SAM7 in stead?13:13
ps2chiperthen i dong suggest an avr chip13:13
ps2chiperi suggest you go for a regular soc using spi flash and 1 sdram13:14
beoran4128 kb is the maximum on AVR3213:14
ps2chiperI guess so, i havent sen any larger13:14
wolfspraulbeoran4: what was the last device you designed or manufactured?13:15
beoran4I'm a beginner, thank you 13:15
beoran4so I'm all ears wwhen it comes to listening to more esperienced people. as long as you don't say it's "impossible" :p13:16
wolfspraulperfect, we are all13:16
wolfsprauloh, you certainly wouldn't and shouldn't care about "impossible"13:16
wolfspraulI have long given up on that13:16
wolfspraulit's natural that people don't listen to that, I woudln't13:16
wolfspraulyou will go in this direction for a while (the one you plan now), then you will learn a lot of things, then you will regroup/refocus around what you care about the most, etc.13:17
ps2chiperThen your wife will ask you to make more money, so you quit13:17
beoran4I already have been going in this direction for a while though, mentally speaking13:18
beoran4it's why I was interested in the ND and eon projects13:19
wolfspraulwhat you are planning there, also with your comparisons to GBA etc. is typically done by a total of hundreds of people13:19
wolfspraulso you either have to scale up a lot, or zoom in on what you exactly want to do13:19
wolfspraulimagine you want to fly to your cousin in Florida next summer, ok?13:19
wolfspraulsummer 201213:20
wolfsprauland on TV you have seen those nice large Boeing & Airbus airplanes that can take you there13:20
wolfspraulwell. you decide to build and fly in your own13:20
wolfspraulshould certainly be possible before the summer vacation?13:20
wolfsprauland you can make it more fuel-efficient than the big ones too, surely. which means you save money!13:20
wolfsprauloff you go13:20
wolfspraulat least until summer 2012 you will have your hands full :-)13:21
wolfspraulthen maybe until end-of 2012 you can have all sorts of excuses for the delays13:21
wolfsprauland sometime in 2013 maybe you decide to just buy a regular economy ticket and fly with the stuff that already exists :-)13:21
beoran4but that's saying "it's impossible" :)13:22
wolfspraulgo build it13:22
wolfspraulI say: IT'S GREAT!13:22
beoran4german humar13:22
ps2chiperThe chinese are trying to build their own aircraft13:22
wolfspraulbut seriously - what is your main interest?13:22
wolfspraulcan you zoom in a little?13:23
beoran4this is a bit simpler than an aircraft, though13:23
wolfspraulyou can of course start like you describe above, but man, yes, I just know - you will not get very far :-)13:23
ps2chiperhe wants a open source hand held video game he can dick around with13:23
beoran4ok, what do you mean "zoom in" 13:23
wolfspraulhow well can you read and design electrical circuits?13:23
wolfsprauldo you have any mechanical engineering experience?13:23
wolfspraulI take it you are a software dev - all levels? kernel etc. all no problem?13:24
beoran4I can read circuits, no mechanical design, but I programmed on the bare hardware, I programmed atari2600 games13:24
ps2chiperwolfspraul, i already brow beaten him for a few months about these issues13:24
wolfspraulmy analogy with the summer vacation and "let me quickly design my own airplane" may not be too far off13:25
wolfspraulyou want to achieve a small goal. you want to have a game console for yourself? that's all?13:25
beoran4it's not an idea that I has suddenly 13:25
wolfspraulmaybe I just donate one to you to make you happy :-)13:25
ps2chiperyou can use my atmega168 to make your own atari260013:25
wolfspraulor you have a big goal in mind?13:25
ps2chiperthe big coal is opencola13:25
wolfspraulif you have a small goal, and you try to reach it in the most difficult way, well. hard to help...13:26
beoran4ps2chiper: that's also one "big goal" yes. 13:26
beoran4wolfspraul: I see what you mean, howeber, I'm not a teenager 13:26
wolfspraulmaybe it's just a hobby13:26
ps2chiperYou can try making a toned down fuzebox for atari 2600 type games13:27
beoran4well, I want a bit more thna atari 2600 though :p13:27
beoran4and not only for myself13:27
ps2chiperyes, but i can donate the atmega168 chips to you13:27
beoran4ah I see13:27
wolfspraulthere you go13:27
wolfspraulyou almost made it13:27
ps2chiperno, seriously, you can use the fuze box as an example13:28
ps2chiperthat is atmega64413:28
beoran4wolfspraul: I get the distinct impression of not being taken serious, but I understand wy, too man ydreamers here, heh? 13:28
ps2chiperthe only difference is the ammount of pins and flash13:28
wolfspraulno no13:28
wolfsprauldreamers is good13:28
wolfspraulplease continue down your path, and keep us posted13:28
wolfspraulI'm just saying: zoom in to what is really important to you13:29
wolfspraulthe faster and the more you can zoom in, the better imho13:29
ps2chiperhey wolfspraul, im trying to get into router business again, do you have any openwrt devs you can toss my way?13:29
wolfspraulhow would I do that13:29
ps2chiperlike drawf tossing at the bar13:30
wolfspraulfire up your text editor, improve something, send a patch13:30
beoran4xwhat's really important to me is that it's a design that's easy to clone 13:30
beoran4and easy to (mass) produce13:30
beoran4but also easy to make just one of13:30
ps2chiperI think wolfspraul finished beer o'clock 13:31
ps2chipernow is drunk o'clock13:31
beoran4in other words, so I and othe rhobbyists can make it easily, but it could also be mass produced in a later stage13:31
beoran4fuzebox is not a bad idea but it's not handheld13:32
ps2chiperlike i was saying, you could use the atmega168 for a tomagochi style device13:32
ps2chiperlike a tomogochi obama13:32
beoran4would that sell well in china? 13:33
beoran4it will need to say "yes we can!" 13:34
ps2chiperyes it would13:34
beoran4and you have to feed it fried chicken 13:34
ps2chiperobama fried chicken13:34
ps2chiperand waffles13:34
beoran4actually, the fusebox is a nice design just a tiny bit weaksauce for me13:34
ps2chiperor it can be a countdown to the next reelection13:34
ps2chiperwell start low13:35
beoran4maybe it could be adjusted to a AVR3213:35
ps2chipergrind up13:35
beoran464KB flash and 4KB of RAM13:35
beoran4if you look at that, then 128kb of ram isan ocean to swim in13:36
ps2chiperi suggest you stick to atmega168 since I have 2500 of them13:36
beoran4just have to page a lot to sd card 13:36
beoran4how much ram/flash does that have? 13:37
beoran4the atmega 168? 13:37
ps2chiperram, i need to check, flash 16KB13:37
ps2chiper20mhz speed13:37
beoran4probably too few ram to do color screens13:39
beoran4but monochrome would be possible13:39
ps2chiperhmm, well a black and white screen would suit obama well13:40
beoran4something like those13:40
ps2chiperIts 1KB ram13:40
beoran4heh, this idea is so crazy it might work :)13:40
beoran41kb 13:40
beoran4let me see, 512bytes vidoe memory? 13:41
beoran4512 bytes program memory13:41
ps2chiperif your trying to make a classic tamagotchi with obama as the character, it will work well13:41
ps2chiperthe bom would be about 5 dollars13:41
beoran4and coudl you sell it? 13:42
beoran4can we use existing casings and screens? 13:43
ps2chipersure it would be a huge hit13:45
beoran4ok, let's try to make a design then 13:46
beoran4cpu: atmega16813:47
ps2chiperno, you start with an atmega168 emulator13:47
beoran4ah, to see if I can implement it? :)13:47
beoran4I'd need to know what LCD screen to use though, but any way13:47
ps2chiperthey have a ton of lcd to atmega168 project13:48
beoran4let me see13:49
ps2chiperi have a tv show for you, its called top secret recipe, its a food hacker so to speak, and he reverses secret recipes13:50
beoran4hmmm, can't seem to find an atmega168 emulator just yet13:51
beoran4muts be out there somewhere13:51
ps2chiperlets take it back to eon13:51
Aylaawesome project :D15:17
wpwrakwolfspraul: (registers) thanks !15:20
kristianpaulwpwrak: 068 = 0d15:47
kristianpaul21008 = 015:47
wpwrakhmm, interesting15:57
wpwrak0x0d means 336/14 -> 24 MHz for the MMC controller15:58
wpwrak0 means bus_clock = mmc_clock/115:59
wpwrak6 means bus_clock = mmc_clock/6415:59
wpwrakkristianpaul: so your MMC should be able to transfer up to 12 MB/sec (minus overhead)16:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: while yours would do about 187 kB/sec16:00
wpwrakps2chiper: (512 kB flash and ram) would that be flash+ram == 512 kB ? or flash == 512 kB && ram == 512 kB ?16:06
ps2chiperthe 2nd part16:06
wpwrak(memory) ah .. you already went beyond that point16:14
zrafawolfspraul: wpwrak : you there?16:31
zrafaqwebirc88488: hi16:31
qwebirc88488Are you "in the know" about the Nanonote?16:31
wpwrak(memory) the biggest atmel chip (any family) has 25 kB of RAM16:32
wpwrakzrafa: aye16:32
zrafaqwebirc88488: you can change your nick writting:   /nick nickyouwant16:32
zrafawpwrak: are you getting something from sharism these months? :)16:33
harrkevI was wondering if Nanonote was dead.  No update to the web site in months...16:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: indeed, where are the monthly news ? :)16:33
zrafawolfspraul: wpwrak : Miriam wants to buy a super embedded linux computer, and she would like to buy it from sharism. The one I got was paid by jlime so we do not know16:34
wpwrakzrafa: dunno ... so far, nothing is planned16:34
harrkevI have also read rumors of a Nanonote 2, but nothing in a year...16:34
wpwrakharrkev: these are just that, rumors. work on a NN2 (that would be the "Ya") hasn't started yet16:35
zrafawolfspraul: wpwrak : how to buy it using our money :).. And if the shipping is okey from sharism -> arg (okey=no many surprises from customs)16:35
wpwrakharrkev: right now, most of the attention of qi-hw folks is on the milkymist one: http://milkymist.org/16:35
harrkevwpwrak:  Thanks.  I am considering getting a Nanonote and wanted to know that work was still on-going on the OS, but fixes, etc.  Thanks.16:36
wpwrakcustoms are tricky these days. i hope they're still letting personal shipments through16:36
wpwrakharrkev: yes, the distribution is still being maintained. if you look at the mailing list, there's still a fair bit of activity. and especially around distribution issues.16:37
harrkevK.  Thnx.  Bye16:37
Action: mstevens looks for tuxbrain16:38
kristianpaulwith that MMC speed a 2 bit SDR could be posible :)17:12
kristianpaulor 1 bit at least ;)17:14
wpwrakhmm, one bit may actually work17:19
wpwrakMMC has a stream mode. i don't think ingenic implemented it as truly infinite, but at least with fewer limitations as SD17:19
wpwrakunfortunately, it's limited to 1 bit. if you try to set the bus to 4 bits, the controller won't even start17:20
jow_laptopkyak: can you explain me the purpose of "001-cache-amnesia.patch" in gcc-mips?17:35
jow_laptopkyak: I worked on an updated gcc package based on the Qi one which works on more platforms and got along without this patch17:36
wolfspraulwpwrak: did something get worse with Argentine customs?22:38
wolfsprauland for rafa, maybe we can send it together with the next m1 board22:39
wolfspraulthe one where Adam applied the final rc4 reset ic circuit (after we know what the final should be)22:39
zrafawolfspraul: when would that be? .. Miriam is going to BA in december for sure. Maybe she can bring his new computer at that time?22:48
wolfspraulthat could work, speed also depends on when Werner finalizes his rc4 recommendation22:49
wolfspraulAdam is on standby22:49
wolfspraulin fact I am constantly asking when Werner thinks Adam can start, but Werner is operating at a level that Adam cannot contribute to, so we have to wait for the result of Werner's analysis.22:49
wolfspraulbut I think it's just a few days out, maybe a week22:49
zrafawolfspraul: we will try to pay with our credit card today or tomorrow (real one :P ) .. and then we will talk with Yi (Yi is the name of her?) to coordinate the shipping. I will ask customs here in Neuquen as well22:50
zrafaso when we already decided the best way we can tell her and then to do the shipping22:51
wolfspraulhuh? don't understand22:52
wolfspraulcan we wait a week?22:52
zrafayes, we can. sorry. I meant. We will buy it today or tomorrow, but we want to wait a while before sharism sends it , until we know the best way22:53
zrafawolfspraul: ^22:53
wolfspraulif we combine into a shipment for Werner, shipping will be a lot cheaper22:53
wolfspraulso don't just buy in the webshop now, let me coordinate this with Werner first22:53
zrafaokey. great22:53
wolfsprauland THANKS A LOT for wanting to buy one!22:54
zrafatell that to Miriam :) well... I will tell her ;)22:54
wolfspraulyes, please22:54
kristianpauloh nice :)22:54
kristianpaulzrafa: what you plan to do with M1. i'm really curious :-)22:59
kristianpauli guess you bring it to the Uni for some development* course?22:59
kristianpaulas on of the plans :)22:59
kristianpaulgottat go,i hoep get internet in the bus station :)23:00
wolfspraulnot m1 - Ben23:02
ignatius_Is it possible to use USB devices with the Ben's USB port? Like, for example, a USB mouse? I've compiled "USB Host" into the kernel, and now, at boot up, it detects "usb0" with a MAC address. Does it work as a USB device? Or does it just support USB "Gadget" support? Not having a usable USB port seems like a waste of motherboard space to me.23:27
zearignatius_, ben's usb port has no host support23:28
zearyou can connect to it only devices that act as hosts themselves23:29
ignatius_What is the "usb0" than?23:29
zearusb networking?23:29
zeari'd say23:29
ignatius_Ok. I see. Thanks for the clarifications.23:30
zearmoreover, usb port in ben is probably unpowered23:30
ignatius_I wish it did have USB. :(23:30
zearso even if it has the host functionality, you couldn't plug devices that aren't self powered23:30
ignatius_I was trying with a mouse and a wireless modem.23:31
ignatius_Oh. Well. I guess I still have the ks7010 card.23:31
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