#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-10-24

ultra420windown 102:15
nicelynicelycheck out this open hw project I found: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/upgradeindustries/boardx-the-open-source-miniature-motherboard02:28
wolfsprauloh he quit fast02:40
kyakjow_laptop: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/Kconfig05:42
jow_laptopkyak: the "moc" dependencies look odd09:45
jow_laptopkyak: and alex4 is definitevely recursive09:45
jow_laptopmoc has "depends !(PACKAGE_libncursesw) || PACKAGE_libncurses", "select PACKAGE_libncurses if !PACKAGE_libncursesw" and "select PACKAGE_libncursesw if PACKAGE_libncursesw"09:46
jow_laptopno wonder menuconfig is acting weird09:46
kyakjow_laptop: alex4 - yea, i know09:59
kyakmoc has this line: +PACKAGE_libncursesw:libncursesw +!PACKAGE_libncursesw:libncurses10:00
jow_laptopyeah, not sure if that is going to work10:00
jow_laptopat least it should not result in a "select" directive10:00
kyaki think it means "if ncursesw is selected, depend on it; if ncursesw is not selected, depend on ncurses"10:00
kyakbtw, it was you who suggested to use this dependency like this ;)10:01
jow_laptopwe need to compe up with something better10:02
jow_laptopthe easiest fix would be to just make it depend on ncursesw10:03
kyakis it possible to utilize CONFIG_BUILD_NLS for this purpose?10:03
kyakfor exmaple, make CONFIG_BUILD_NLS select ncursesw10:03
kyakthen we can just +BUILD_NLS:libncursesw +!BUILD_NLS:libncurses10:04
jow_laptopyes, that would make sense I suppose10:04
jow_laptopI'll discuss it with the other devs10:04
kyaksure, thanks10:04
jow_laptopbefore we're hunting ghosts however, can you check whether your menuconfig goes back to normal after "./scripts/feeds uninstall moc libpurple" ?10:05
kyakthough it was discussed to have a separate flag for wide char support. It could be used then to affect certain options in uclibc, busybox and ncursesw-dependant apps10:05
jow_laptopactually I would prefer a separate wide char option too10:05
kyakone sec10:05
kyakjow_laptop: it behaves well now! :)10:09
kyaki also uninstalled mc, which is from qi-packages repo and also using this kind of dependencies10:09
kyakhttps://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9786 this ticket, by the way 10:10
jow_laptopk, I suppose alex4 and mc are easily fixed10:10
kyakwhat is the best way to fix mc now?10:10
jow_laptophm, the only immediate solution I can think of right now is to provide a manual Kconfig snippet which adds a config menu for mc with two choices for wide char or not10:11
jow_laptopto havem or control over the dependencies, the autogenerated ones are too verbose10:12
kyakoh! 10:12
kyakfor alex4, i think it makes sense to make alex4-data depend on alex410:13
jow_laptopnot sure, I usually organize my deps top-down10:13
kyakif they both depend on each other, then it doesn't make sense to split the package anyway :)10:13
jow_laptopso alex4 depends on alex4-data10:13
kyakthen someone can install alex4-data without intalling alex410:14
kyakdoesn't matter.. i'll do it your way10:15
jow_laptopwell alex4 needs alex4-data to run10:15
jow_laptopalex4-data is usable by itself10:15
jow_laptopprovided someone indeed only wants the artwork or whatever10:16
kyak..or, someone wants just alex4 and then use his own data or whatever ;)10:16
qi-bot[commit] kyak: alex4: resolve recursive dependency alex4<->alex4-data (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/eb188f710:18
kyakjow_laptop: regarding mc. Should it be soemthing similar to packages/multimedia/ffmpeg/Config.in ?10:19
kyakjow_laptop: or, maybe Variants is a better way?10:20
jow_laptopnot sure10:21
jow_laptopI'd use the Config.in approach10:22
jow_laptopand make the defaults state there depend on CONFIG_NLS10:22
jow_laptopa build variant for mc to merely select the libncurses flavor is probably overkill10:23
kyakok.. i'll try it with mc. If it works fine, similar can be done to moc and others10:24
wolfspraulmarcan: hey :-)10:31
wolfsprauljust see your nick and I remember lasers :-)10:31
wolfspraulwe have since released the full Milkymist One product, ready with all bells and whistles... https://sharism.cc/milkymist10:32
wolfspraulI'm still very much looking forward to any progress with your laser project10:32
wolfspraulno rush of course, good things take some time...10:32
wolfspraulif you need any help, please holler10:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: apropos "release" ... maybe relabel the old release as a "beta release" and try a broader announcement for M1rc4 ?11:38
wpwraksince some journalists may have seen the one on the reg, it may be a little easier to get them to pay attention11:39
kyakjow_laptop: could you please have a look at: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/mc/ (Makefile and Config.in). It seems to work fine, however, i can't add libncurses{w} to DEPENDS. If i do it like "+MC_ENABLE_WIDECHAR:libncursesw +!MC_ENABLE_WIDECHAR:libncurses", it leads to recursive dependancy again11:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes definitely, m1 is so new/different that it can be launched/reported about in different ways11:48
wolfspraulthe difficulty is in getting people to really like it11:49
wolfspraulthat takes time11:49
wpwrakhow many "real" VJs and clubs use it now on a regular basis ? i think references would do a lot to boost credibility11:50
wolfspraulyou know I'm conversative about these kinds of success stories, so I'd put the number at 0 right now :-)11:51
wpwrakwell, think of it as freeriding - someone else has already done the hard work of evaluation and vetting for you :)11:51
wolfspraulsome people have it, but 'regular basis' is maybe too much11:52
wpwrakokay, the time is a bit short for much habit forming11:52
wpwrakyou can use the "regular basis" as an internal criterion. in the sense that they're either still working on integrating it into their show or at least bring it out every now and then11:54
wpwrakand then maybe ask each if they can send you a picture of the club/show with some typical M1 effect11:55
wolfspraulI don't think M1 today has such irresistible features that clubs will just line up to give it that kind of attention12:05
wolfspraulI am learning more and more about this scene, and we have to fight a little for a place for M112:05
wolfspraullow power consumption is the most outstanding technical feature where M1 is really unique12:07
wpwrakno, i mean the places that already have it. e.g., that club in bejing. is that the only one ?12:08
wolfspraulbut that's hardly a good argument in a club with thousands, or even tens of thousands of watt of power use :-)12:08
wpwrakwhy do people care about power consumption in M1 ? right next to it is equipment that draws 1000x or maybe 10000x the power ...12:09
wpwrakyeah ;-)12:09
wpwraki don't see power consumption as an argument anywhere :)12:09
wolfspraulthe club in Beijing (Lantern) was not interested in the end12:09
wpwrak(lantern) aw :-(12:10
wolfspraulyou mean we don't talk about it enough ? [power consumption]12:10
wolfspraulor you mean it cannot work with anybody?12:10
wpwrak(lantern) did they explain why ?12:10
wpwrakthe latetr12:10
wolfspraulI wouldn't say that, I've heard from several people that there is a real rush/movement of some people towards low power stuff.12:10
wolfspraulbut I doubt that in the club context, for sure12:11
wpwrakM1 power consumption doesn't really matter. it would if M1 was battery-powered, but since it needs mains anyway, a few watts more or less are irrelevant12:11
wolfspraulyes yes, sure12:11
jow_laptopkyak: hm, can't you just add select statements to Config.in and leave the DEPENDS:= out ?12:11
wolfspraulI am just saying after learning more and more about this scene, that is the #1 tech feature that really stands as being outstanding12:11
wpwrak(low power trend) yes, that's true. but M1 misses that on all ends. in the clubs, because they already waste power like there's no tomorrow. in homes, because its standby is fairly power-hungry.12:12
wolfspraulthe second one would be video latency, but I haven't yet found someone who would say that's a killer feature12:12
wolfspraulI hope we remove standby anyway, and have people completely shut power to turn it off12:12
wpwrakaren't they happy about the integration of interfaces ?12:12
wpwrak(cut power) maybe add a switch ? ;-)12:13
kyakjow_laptop: i tried to, but it seems to ignore select statements from COnfig.in12:13
wolfspraul[lantern] I don't think they ever were interested, the little interest they showed was because Jon talked them into it hard and eventually I guess they wanted to be nice to Jon :-)12:13
wpwrak(lantern) mmh, i see12:14
wolfspraulbut even if we would loan them one, I doubt it would be in regular, if any, use. especially after they run into the first problem. waste of time imho, unless they come around and get it and really like it.12:14
wolfspraulyou cannot force/talk a customer into liking a product, that's just impossible. people have to come to you.12:15
wolfspraul[integration] no, haven't heard that12:15
wolfspraulwhat I learnt now is this:12:15
wpwrakmaybe you could work with a VJ instead of the club per se12:15
wolfspraulvisual alone is not that attractive12:15
wolfspraulso few clubs will say "if we have a 24/7 visual performance running on the projector, we will sell more drinks"12:16
wolfspraulthe problem with M1 running all the time would be that it would get boring too fast12:16
wpwrakmakes sense12:16
wolfspraulthe way we can customize and update patches is too difficult for the regular club12:16
wpwrakmaybe in a few years, with thousands of effects ...12:16
wolfspraulthey cannot just upload/integrate pictures from a USB stick12:16
wolfspraulyes correct12:16
wolfspraulmany things are imaginable12:17
wolfspraulbut right now we have 54 patches and they are rotating and that's it12:17
wolfspraulso for all-time use, it gets boring too fast and is too hard to customize12:17
wpwrakplus one real-life vj working on more, so there's hope :)12:17
wolfspraulso what the clubs are doing is to get human dj/vj into their place once in a while, say on a saturday12:18
wolfspraulthat works well because it can be advertised etc.12:18
wolfspraulwhich also advertises the name of the club for the mon-fri guests12:18
wolfsprauland those vjs have their notebook-based setup and it's very hard to make them use m112:18
wpwrak(hard customization) yeah. the setup logic is still very technical. okay for IT folks or artists who don't mind taking their time to really learn their instrument, but nothing you'd sell as "oh just plug it in and it'll look great"12:19
wolfspraulit start with "pull pics from a usb stick"12:19
wolfspraulpeople just expect this kind of stuff to work12:19
wolfspraulmaybe Apple can get away with not having USB12:19
wolfspraulbut not us :-)12:19
wolfspraulbut don't get me wrong, I think M1 will find its place12:20
wpwrakwith a large enough set of effects, you could also add "like / don't like"  buttons. then the club folks could just tweak the show a little as it runs12:20
wolfspraulif we have a site we could categorize and rate patches12:20
wpwrak(afaik, milkdrop has just such a thing)12:20
wolfspraulcould could could12:20
wolfspraulm1 could be good for installations12:21
wolfspraulbut that takes time to get known in that field12:21
wolfsprauland then most customers will want this or that customization, and may quickly run into something that can easily be customized with a notebook setup12:22
wolfsprauleven if expensive12:22
wpwrakso, if you don't expect to be able to reach the masses, focus on the premium segment ? metal case, 10x the price ?12:22
wolfspraulbut expensive is not necessarily bad for a pro/artist/designer12:22
wolfspraulthat way his markup also goes up :-)12:22
wolfspraulnah not sure, it will find its place12:22
wolfspraulyou just ask as if there would be this large number of clubs crazy to play it, sending us piles of pro shots of m1 in use at their clubs etc.12:23
wolfspraulthe reality is that none of this exists today12:23
wolfspraulthere were 3 concerts in Warsaw using m112:23
wolfspraulusta, masala, masecki12:23
wolfspraulafter about a month, and many many emails and asking, we have 1.5 video recordings of those 3 concerts12:24
wolfspraulI tried to reach the artists with some very simple interview questions about their use of milkymist at their concert12:24
wpwraki'm not asking for piles. and not for recordings. just a picture that shows M1 in action at a different site.12:24
wolfspraulthings like "did you like it?" "do you think the audience liked it?" "do you want to use it again?"12:24
wolfspraulso far: zero answers :-)12:24
wolfspraulI think they don't care actually.12:25
wolfspraulsebastien was there and did all this on that projector in the background.12:25
wpwrakah, so they may not even have noticed ;-)12:25
wolfsprauland jon is telling me the audience liked it and came in front of the camera etc.12:25
wolfspraulyes [not noticed]12:25
wolfspraulsomething not far above that :-)12:25
wpwrakdid any VJs talk to sebastien afterwards ?12:25
wolfspraulneed to ask him12:26
wolfspraulwe have a few serious guys who bought it12:26
wolfspraulI need to follow up12:26
wolfspraulsomeone in Munich, someone in Australia, no-carrier in New York12:26
wolfspraulbut it's crazy time consuming to followup12:26
wolfsprauland people may just buy the box to try out, and then end up not doing much12:26
wpwrakthat's already a nice geographical distribution12:26
wolfspraulI cannot spend large amounts of energy to run after people and extract little snippets if the root cause of the hardship is that they don't care much about the product.12:27
wpwrakyou need to find someone in asia, too. asia is the boom continent while the old world goes to hell :)12:27
wolfspraulso they need to come forward themselves12:27
wolfspraulthey need to blog12:28
wolfspraulthey need to upload great pics and videos12:28
wolfspraulthey need to try hard to get new patches included in updates12:28
wolfsprauland so on12:28
wolfsprauluntil that happens, I focus my energy on finding new customers :)12:28
wpwrakc'mon. it can't be that hard to ping them every once in a while. if they have happy or unhappy news, they'll let you know12:28
wpwrakthe main risk will be that they come with unreasonable expectations12:28
wolfspraulno the main risk is that I write an email, and get no response12:28
wolfspraulthat means I wasted some minutes of my life that will never come back12:29
wolfspraulsounds small, but it adds up, trust me :-)12:29
wolfspraulI could spend half day each day run after nanonote or m1 customers that disappeared into silence12:29
wolfspraulcan't do it12:29
wolfspraulthey paid, fine. I spend my energy improving the product and understanding how to make it easier to use.12:30
wpwrakokay, but one mail will reach 33% of your customer base. other folks need to spend megadollars and months of work to do that ;-)12:30
wolfspraulso bottom line: understanding the features and scene and potential buyers (and non-buyers) better is helping us to focus our marketing, so we quickly find more actual customers12:41
wolfspraulm1 is very unique, as a package12:41
wolfspraulsome things are easier than elsewhere, others harder12:41
wpwrakhow do you find and approach potential buyers ?12:42
wolfspraulin some comparisons it's very cheap, in others too expensive12:42
DocScrutinizerthey're customers, they're free to not bother, to not spend even 30s on reading or answering mail. Their focus may have changed, temporarily or permanent12:42
wolfspraulyes of course, correct12:42
wolfsprauljust following leads and ideas12:43
wolfspraulcompanies, journalists, students, etc.12:43
wpwraksebastien's approach of going to events where artists go to look for new trends and ideas sounds promising, but also very labour-intensive12:43
wpwrakhmm, so all from the home office12:43
wolfspraulfor me yes, definitely. Jon is traveling.12:44
wpwrakyeah, he has that M1 demo suitcase ;-)12:44
wolfspraulsebastien has been very successful at finding actual paying customers12:44
wpwrak(sebastien) good. his approach sounds like the best way to get new people involved to me. spend time with them. make sure they already know the M1 a little when you're done with them. "fire and forget" e-mails don't have that effect.12:46
DocScrutinizerI don't need to explain my concerns about very low total market for such a specialized product12:49
DocScrutinizermaybe - with the right software - you could approach private "posse" TV stations (those only broadcasting to one block, or max one town. Usually ran by hobbyinsts)12:51
DocScrutinizerthey also are already becoming obsolete in times of internet streaming, but may still be a market as large or larger than VJs12:52
wolfspraulsorry disconnect12:53
DocScrutinizerI don't need to explain my concerns about very low total market for such a specialized product12:53
DocScrutinizermaybe - with the right software - you could approach private "posse" TV stations (those only broadcasting to one block, or max one town. Usually ran by hobbyinsts)12:53
DocScrutinizerthey also are already becoming obsolete in times of internet streaming, but may still be a market as large or larger than VJs12:53
wolfspraulso I don't know how sebastien sees the results of his events right now12:53
wolfspraulI don't think the market is small/specialized12:54
wolfspraulnot at all12:54
wolfspraulwe hvae to learn, be patient, build a brand, build an awesome product12:54
DocScrutinizeryou sound like an evangelist :-D12:54
wolfspraulit needs the right feature mix, right brand, right channel and marketing partners, right price, etc. etc.12:54
wolfspraulHTC just paid 500 million USD for a headphone company12:55
wolfsprauldr. dre's beats12:55
wolfspraulI just take one random example12:55
wolfspraulwhy are thye doing that?12:55
DocScrutinizer*everybody* is using headphones nowadays12:55
wolfspraulon the headphone side - why are people paying 100-600 USD for a headphone?12:55
DocScrutinizerI don't even *know* any VJ12:55
DocScrutinizernever even seen any12:55
wolfspraulthey paid 500 _million_ USD for a headphone company12:55
wolfspraulwe are on the same page12:56
wolfspraulwith Milkymist a lot of things are new *at once*12:56
wolfspraulnew brand12:56
wolfspraulnew technology12:56
wolfspraulnew channel12:56
wolfspraulnew product category12:56
wolfspraulthat's pretty crazy12:56
wolfspraulnormally one of those is new, the rest is stable/known12:56
wolfspraulif all those 4 are new, well, all bets are off12:57
wolfspraulthere are thousands of KTVs12:57
wolfspraultens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of bars and nightclubs12:57
DocScrutinizerfrom a manufacturer POV that's correct. From a market survey POV I have a hard time to figure who's going to buy the product12:57
wolfspraulmillions of under-used projectors in offices, lobbies, restaurants12:58
wolfspraulthere must be 1 gazillion screens all over asia12:58
wolfsprauloh sure, that's why we sold only about 40 now12:58
wolfsprauland not 40,000 or 40 million12:58
DocScrutinizerthat's maybe a little bit like building special high power hydraulic pumps for those who make their cars jump by playing with a joystick. I barely know *anything* about that very special scene12:58
wolfspraulyes but you know milkymist is not that specialized actually12:59
wolfspraulwe have to shape it well12:59
wolfsprauland maybe new brand/tech/channel/category is too much12:59
wolfspraulbut it's all fine right now, things are moving12:59
wolfspraulI didn't expect you to buy one, for example :-)12:59
wpwraklet's look at the infrastructure13:00
wolfspraulshould I make 300 USD headphones and I would have a chance with you then? :-)13:00
wpwrakthose unused tvs and projectors are probably doing something. in restaurants, they show tv. in bars, they show music videos or sports13:00
wolfspraula lot are off13:00
wolfspraulbut the problem there is m1 gets too boring too fast13:01
wolfspraulwhen run unattended13:01
wolfspraulVJs seem to be a bunch of people that likes to experiment13:01
wolfspraulanother angle13:01
wpwrakin clubs, they're probably only installed if they first have someone who will use it13:01
wolfspraulmaybe we can get VJs to sell m113:01
wolfspraulto clubs13:01
wolfspraulbut then we might need to stop selling direct13:01
wolfspraulso the VJs can sell for 999 USD :-)13:01
wpwrakdoes it even make sense for a club to own an M1 ?13:01
wolfspraulgood question13:01
wolfsprauldoes it attract more people?13:02
wolfspraulI cannot answer that question13:02
wolfspraulsince it's just a machine/box, it doesn't have the same kind of appeal as a human dj/vj 'playing' on the weekend13:02
wolfspraulit does look pretty nice though, but gets boring. that's my personal impression.13:02
wolfspraulthe boring is fixable13:02
wolfspraulbut even if we can fix that - would a club want to do it?13:02
wolfspraulneed to talk to more club owners, it's that simple13:03
wpwrakhwo do you fix the boring without adding a Vj to the bill ?13:03
wpwrakTV solves the boring. at least from a visual point of view.13:03
wolfspraula human VJ can never be beaten on boring13:03
wolfspraulbut m1 could improve a lot13:03
wpwrakyou don't have to beat him13:03
wolfspraulmore patches, easy way to feed still pics13:04
wolfspraulother small improvements13:04
wolfspraullike excluding some unwanted patches easily13:04
wolfspraulthis that, small things13:04
wolfspraulbut lets' assume boring is fixed13:04
wolfspraulwould the club want it?13:04
wolfspraulnot sure13:04
wolfspraulwhat is the main argument for the club?13:04
wolfsprauldon't know13:04
wolfspraulwe will learn those things13:04
wpwrakmaybe you need to bundle effects and audio. since M1 needs a lot of tuning to do nice things with music, an unattended M1 only reveals a tiny fraction of its appeal13:05
wolfspraulmaybe Lantern will work out later13:05
wolfspraulthey have a big renovation in November, and will look at it again after that13:05
wolfspraulbut it's telling that they want to look at m1 *after* the renovation13:05
wolfspraulrather than including it in their thoughts during the renovation :-)13:05
wolfspraultheir focus are speakers, lights13:05
wpwrakyeah. that's the chinese "no" ;-)13:06
wpwrakyou're impolite for not understanding it and staying away :)13:06
wolfspraulI'm also learning about led walls13:06
wolfspraulbut whenever it comes to new features, most likely an (expensive) notebook setup will already have that feature in some hw/sw combination13:07
wolfspraulled walls may have unusual aspect ratios13:07
wolfsprauland unusual color requirements13:07
wolfspraulI agree with Sebastien that we should focus on selling the features we have today, rather than blindly adding feature after feature until we find one that sells.13:08
wolfspraulthe magic is more in brand/channel/message I think13:08
DocScrutinizerjust go the idea of discotheques that quite frequently use some lightshow for their dancing floor. With M1 you can have fancy lighshow by just using a good projector. Don't know or see any pub or club or whatever running a M1 for 24/7 entertainment of customers sipping their beer13:08
wolfspraulif the entire world would fully understand what m1 could do today, we would have thousands of orders tomorrow, I'm sure13:08
wpwrakled walls are only relevant to the point of them being competition for projectors. so don't try to sell M1 to a club that's already invested into a LED wall instead of a projcor13:08
wpwrak(sell the features we have) yes ! :)13:09
wolfspraulbtu like I said, with having a new tech, new brand, new channel and new category all at once, we do have an uphill battle ahead of us13:09
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: and btw, that's obvious but still - hackers can take this 'video synthesizer' and see a general purpose computer in it, and hack it into whatever they are capable of13:10
wpwrakthe new tech doesn't really matter because you're not selling the tech. new brand shouldn't matter all that much either. you're just one of a gazillion nobodies. so that's the "nobody brand", already perfectly well established all over the world13:10
wolfspraulthat's also potential 'customers'13:10
wolfsprauloh but the new tech is unproven13:11
wolfspraulpeople will figure that out quickly13:11
wpwrakwhy, besides the hackers, will ever know ? ;-)13:11
wolfspraulso channel people ask "existing brand? no" "proven tech? no"13:11
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: I'd probably see a better market in that "hacker approach"13:11
wolfspraulit's justmore and more risks, because all those 4 things are new *at once*13:11
wolfspraulthat's very unusual/rare, because so risky13:12
wolfspraulnormally you pick one of them, and innovate13:12
wolfspraulexisting brand/tech, new channel13:12
wolfspraulexisting tech, new brand13:12
wolfspraulexisting channel, new brand13:12
wolfspraulexisting brand, new tech13:12
wolfspraulbut not all at once :-)13:12
DocScrutinizerAIUI M1 is pretty capable of doing industry grade object tracking, face recog, all sorts of scientific image processing13:12
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: the problem is that wolfgang doesn't have the financial resources to properly develop M1. so he needs to sell it before the hackers had their chance to make it do more cool things.13:13
DocScrutinizeryes, that's understood13:14
DocScrutinizerso the IT tool provider market (dunno a better word) is a main target market for this device13:15
wpwraki think it's pretty much as i predicted - M1 looks like an excellent long-term project but a very hard short-term sale. so it will not become a success based on its merits alone. it needs a good dose of luck.13:15
DocScrutinizerneeds a completely different housing (or no housing at all) for that13:15
wolfspraulmaybe we can take out some of those 'new' items13:15
wolfspraulfind an existing channel13:15
wolfspraulor an existing brand13:15
DocScrutinizersell via psarkfun or sth like that13:16
wolfspraulwpwrak: I'm glad I don't have more money to waste into hobby projects :-)13:16
wolfspraulbusiness = sales13:16
wpwrakfor existing brands, you may need to have a better track record of commercial success13:16
DocScrutinizermaybe even thinkgeek13:16
wolfspraulM1 is definitely 'properly developed', unless we include the brand, channel development, those are lacking indeed, and the focus now13:16
wolfspraulno no13:17
wolfspraulan existing brand knows they have channel strength13:17
wolfspraulthey look at the technology only13:17
wolfspraultheir problem will be the openess :-)13:17
wpwrakmaybe that too13:17
DocScrutinizersee Medion wikireader X-P13:17
wolfspraulso for the time being, we go all the way out and reach to the end user13:17
wolfspraulthat's the right approach imho13:17
wolfspraulbypass everything...13:18
wolfspraul50% of rc3 is sold after a few weeks13:18
wolfspraulnot bad13:18
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: if you want to have one, let me know :-)13:18
wolfspraulcalling it a day now...13:18
wolfsprauljust shipped another one to Norway today13:18
DocScrutinizerWR? why not13:18
wolfspraulMilkymist One of course13:18
wolfspraul(and I was joking)13:18
DocScrutinizerM!? sure as hell13:18
wpwrakto reach brands, you may have to go to trade shows and have a booth. when their folks walk around to see what the competition is doing, they may spot you13:18
wpwrakstill a long shot13:18
wpwrakor get into the trade press13:19
wolfspraulmany will want to control their technology13:19
wpwrakcatch 22 :)13:19
wolfsprauland since m1 is open, they cannot buy & inhouse it13:19
wolfspraulSebastien talked with Roland for example13:19
wpwrakyeah, customer lock-in is a missing feature :)13:19
wolfspraulthey like it, but want full control from Japan etc.13:19
wolfspraulmaybe Sebastien could move to Japan and get a job there13:19
wolfspraulthat would probably work13:20
wolfsprauland on his first day he would have to sign a contract that would disallow him from ever making a contribution under gpl again :-)13:20
wolfspraul(kidding, kidding)13:20
wpwraksign in blood13:20
DocScrutinizerwithout at least 1/8 page ad in c't you won't enter any 'business' on the IT supplier market13:21
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: wolfgang thinks c't is too provincial13:21
wolfspraulI email them tomorrow :-)13:22
wpwrakfinally ;-)13:22
wolfspraulthey are very picky though, which is OK but just saying13:22
wpwrakthey totally dig open and underdogs. what else could you wish for ?13:22
wolfspraulwell it will not translate into sales for sure13:23
wolfspraulbut some more wise-cracking along the lines of slashdot13:23
wpwrakthey're merciless on the tech, but they go out of their way to still make it sound nice if they like you13:23
DocScrutinizermake damn sure to properly emphasise the general purpose nature of M1 for $RANDOM kind of image processing though, when you approach c't - they are not very much interested in VJing, nor are their readers13:23
wolfspraulI think best bet is people who really love music and video13:23
wpwrakthere's no forum on the printed c't ;-)13:23
wolfspraulall that is up to them13:24
wolfspraulI will email them, then we see13:24
wpwrakand the technical novelty. new open SoC (pretty much the first one that actually does something) is a pretty strong feature for c't. maybe you could even get two articles - one on the VJ side, the other hardcore on the tech13:25
DocScrutinizerquite usually you send them a good press release article, and they pick passages and rewrite it13:26
wpwrakthey're (still) tinkerers. they like their technical background stories.13:26
wpwraki think it may be worth trying for an article, not just yet another ten lines press release13:27
DocScrutinizersend them a M1 and you bought an article usually, only if it comes with a manual/howto/CD_with_sw that lures sb in to tinker with it13:27
DocScrutinizermention they could even print all the schematics and PCB on that article and you may get a 8 pages in main section, where they start a c't project on it13:29
wpwrakthat may be a little too much :)13:29
DocScrutinizerdo you think *any* of the c't projects been developed by c't reporters or their lab?13:30
DocScrutinizerwell, yes. You *become* c't reporter when they are interested in a project you developed ;-D13:31
wpwraki think what we could aim for with M1 is an architecture article. the anatomy of a VJ station with an open SoC in an FPGA. that's plenty of delicious meat.13:32
wpwrakmuch like they dissect intels' next incremental improvement over some four pages every now and then. just that we have a much nicer offering13:32
DocScrutinizergeneral video processing general purpose unit, on which a VJ device got implemented13:32
wpwrakonce they're hooked on the tech article, the (short) product presentation snippet happens on its own13:33
wpwrakalso the online articles. after all, they then help to sell the print magazine. so you don't need to go and convince them that an online article or two is good for their business.13:34
DocScrutinizerjust implement a little fancy and control those 300 air nozzles that blow out green shit from the broken glass running by the camera, and you got another completely different usecase, so they see it's not just a VJ station with an interesting tech background13:35
wpwrakyeah, the focus needs choosing. too much VJ may not fly. even though they regularly cover devices for musicians and other artists, also somewhat outlandish ones13:35
DocScrutinizerfocus needs to be set on tech, not on usecase13:36
wpwrakbroken glass ? you mean for the next 99% riots ? ;-)13:36
DocScrutinizer"we just market it *for now* with an VJ example software"13:37
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: I mean all those industry sorters, apple selectors, yellow bag plastic recycling processors whatnot13:37
wpwrakyou need a bit of both. the GPU is very special, because it's for VJs. also, the CPU is too slow if you don't explain why you don't need to play the GHz race there13:37
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: (green shit) >>Erfassung lichtundurchlässiger Materialien (z. B. Keramik) mittels optischer Verfahren<< http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glas-Recycling13:43
DocScrutinizersame method used to sort different types of plastic (here with IR) from recycling ("gelber sack / duales system deutchland")13:45
DocScrutinizeralways a setup like   videocam -> M1 -> "fast labsw" -> air nozzles13:46
wpwrakheh, but for this, they'd want to see a working example :)13:46
DocScrutinizerexactly not. It's enough to mention you got a PoC sw you are working on, so it's clear this isn't a mere consumer grade video effects processor13:47
DocScrutinizera printout of the sourcecode that would implement a PoC for such a sorter was magnitudes more appealing to c't than a video of a working industrial sorter whee you see a M1 in the rack13:48
wpwrakc'mon. there's a big difference between a SoC and that kind of sorder13:48
wpwraki don't see them print any sources :)13:49
DocScrutinizerno, but they may print the URL and drool over the openness of the concept13:49
wpwraknaw, if you build such a sorter, they may once mention it in an article about recycling. like they recently had one on agricultural IT. but that's pretty high-level.13:49
DocScrutinizermeh, I'm obviously not able to transport my idea13:50
wpwrakmaybe you want to focus on the image processing angle13:50
wpwrakthen the sorter would just be an application example13:50
wpwrakbut you'd still have to build it13:51
wpwrakor present your algorithm at SIGGRAPH ;-)13:51
kyakjow_laptop: it's too tricky.. can't make it work- tried a lot of combinations13:53
jow_laptopkyak: yeah, I think it should just depend on libncursesw and done14:27
kyakjow_laptop: does it mean we should override moc just like we did with mc?..15:07
kyaki mean, override openwrt package with qi openwrt package15:07
jow_laptopkyak: no I'll fix it later15:12
jow_laptopkyak: I just have to get some shitty webfoo done for my employer first15:12
kyakjow_laptop: ok, thanks for that :)15:14
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-10232011-1506/19:55
LunaVoraxHello all !21:17
LunaVoraxI need a reality check21:17
LunaVoraxAre books really doomed to disapear?21:18
LunaVoraxOr is it just a fantasy21:19
Aylait's a fantasy IMHO21:20
Aylajust like radio was supposed to disappear when TV appeared21:20
LunaVoraxI have a Communication teach at college21:20
LunaVoraxA very connected person she's aware of a lot of things21:21
LunaVoraxAnd she convince us that books have no chances21:21
LunaVoraxI'm finding this grotesque.. as paradoxal it can be ('cause i'm a computer science stud)21:22
Aylaso do I (and so do I)21:22
LunaVoraxMaybe it'll be like always21:23
Aylathe current e-readers are far from being good enough for most people21:23
LunaVoraxIf that was only that21:24
LunaVoraxProprietary formats21:24
LunaVoraxAnd worst of all21:24
Aylaand I like the smell of the paper :p21:24
LunaVoraxBook that need power :(21:24
LunaVoraxAyla, are you contributing to qi ?21:26
Aylain some ways, yes21:26
Aylamost of my work related to Qi has been on gmenu2x21:27
Aylaand a tiny bit on the Qi kernel21:28
Ayla(I did the watchdog driver)21:28
LunaVoraxLike what in the Qi kernel ?21:28
LunaVoraxYou wrote a driver21:28
LunaVoraxI always heard it was so complex to do21:29
Aylanot really, but it's time-hungry21:30
Aylaas the code has to be perfect if you want it to be included21:30
LunaVoraxThat's great, I don't concieve non-perfect code21:31
LunaVoraxI'm a bit too perfectionnist21:31
LunaVorax(it slows me down sometimes)21:31
Aylaheheh, yes you do21:32
LunaVoraxNot concieving it doesn't mean I don't make errors :P21:32
Aylaperfect code for you doesn't mean perfect for the linux kernel21:33
Aylayou have to take care about how many characters you have per line, for instance21:33
LunaVoraxOh I understand21:34
LunaVoraxI was thinking in an algorithmic way21:34
LunaVoraxI still am jealous od Apple's Siri21:38
wpwrakLunaVorax: books are almost certainly doomed. neutron decay and perhaps even proton decay would reduce them by about 25-50% in as short a time as 10^34 years21:53
LunaVoraxThat was a nice joke wpwrak hehe21:54
DocScrutinizerand you can't write notes on the pages of e-boks21:54
LunaVoraxI wasn't expecting it :D21:54
wpwraknobody expects the proton decay ;-)21:56
DocScrutinizerI wonder what are the decay products of a neutron21:56
LunaVoraxDocScrutinizer, the idea I wanted to tell that even if the next Kindle had all of theses features, it would bothers me because it's a computer and the break down rate of a computer still is way higher that the break down rate of a book as of today21:56
DocScrutinizerso maybe newspapers are doomed, not so are books21:57
wpwrakbut ... i think e-books more substitute paper books more and more. the main problem are currently still copyright and patents. give humanity a few centuries and these issues will have been overcome, too. the reading experience per se isn't too bad. it's a matter of getting used to it. again, this is something that solves itself within a few generations.21:57
LunaVoraxAnd the battle against proprietary formats isn't over yet also21:57
LunaVoraxA computer will hardly survive over time while we have copies of perfectly surviving books21:58
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: beta decay: neutron -> proton, electron, neutrino21:58
LunaVoraxI suck at english21:59
DocScrutinizerumm, yeah. Then what's the proton decay?21:59
wpwrakproton decay is a hypothetical decay of protons into .. checking ...21:59
DocScrutinizerLunaVorax: your reasoning is well known as librarian's problem22:00
LunaVoraxreally ?22:00
wpwrak.. pions, positrons, and such22:00
DocScrutinizermy desk feels so hollow22:01
wpwraknewspapers are already dying. they just can't keep up. and much of their content is short-lived.22:01
LunaVoraxDocScrutinizer, the librarian's problem is a classification problem. Are you sure about what you are saying ?22:02
wpwrakand computers as a group don't break down all that easily. consider "the matrix". don't you think there are thousands is not millions of copies on people's hard disks all over the planet ? books would be even easier. they take up very very little space. you could make a "book vault @ home" project that just spreads out book content22:04
LunaVoraxI think in fact22:05
LunaVoraxThe main problem is22:05
LunaVoraxHum no22:05
LunaVoraxOne of the main problem is22:05
wpwrakthe problem with e-books are patents. if you don't want to pay e-inc or they don't want you to outpace them, you have to wait 20 years before you can make the next major step22:05
LunaVoraxFile format22:05
wpwrakso that's about 1-3 opportinities within an engineer's life.22:05
LunaVoraxThat's what I meant22:05
DocScrutinizerLunaVorax: not about the term, no. Esp not the english term22:05
wpwrakASCII ;-)22:05
LunaVoraxwpwrak, My language have caracters like éàSê, no ASCII then22:07
wpwrakof course, things under DRM may be lost. but all the free content and all the "pirated" content will be what survives through history22:07
DocScrutinizerpersistent storage of data in long term archives still mainly done on microfiche, and in some corner a microfiche reader. Will work in 3000 years22:07
LunaVoraxI hope you are right wpwrak 22:08
LunaVoraxmicrofiche ?22:08
LunaVoraxDocScrutinizer, that raise another problem, will the human kind survive that long without self-destruct ?22:09
wpwrak(microfiche) that's for cases where you have a small number of archival sites and need assurances of survival. if you just spread it over the internet, you only have statistical assurances. but that doesn't mean that it won't be safe.22:09
wpwraki mean, when was the last time a light switch didn't work because all of the electrons decided against tunelling through the oxide ?22:10
DocScrutinizerhah, statistical safety. I see this every time I'm looking for any copy of that friggin pastebin somebody linked in a ML post22:11
wpwrak(light switch) of course, assuming the oxide wasn't so think that the switch was in fact broken22:11
wpwrakpastebins are rather volatile :)22:11
wpwrakbut maybe you can write a spider that archives pastebins before they vanish :)22:12
DocScrutinizer(switch) 9 days ago, on my TV22:12
DocScrutinizerooh light* switch22:12
DocScrutinizerdunno, I use relays here22:12
LunaVoraxI'm very worried, I'm never able to see technology as stable22:15
wpwrak(e-paper) e.g., you could make flexible double-sided e-paper that you simply turn around to flip pages. that way, you can make the update process very slow.22:16
wpwrakif you don't have DRM, you could also have the same document easily on multiple machines. so your e-paper reader could synchronize the position wirelessly with your other computers. if you want to search the document for something, you could then, say, go to your pc or pick up a table that would be too bulk just for reading22:18
LunaVoraxAnyone seen the movie H2G2 ?22:20
wpwraktechnology is not really the limiting factor. it's the ability to invent without getting raped and access to content that's the problem. and perhaps also the lack of more flexible models for financing development.22:20
DocScrutinizerno, it's all about data formats and (lacking) stability of all digital storage media22:22
DocScrutinizerand of course the finite lifespan of engines even in stow-away mode22:22
wpwrakformats = access to content. once you have it in open format, a book is pretty easy to handle22:22
DocScrutinizerso basically the separation of data and readout22:22
wpwrakyou can solve archival through peer-to-peer. share the books. encourage people not to delete them. books are SMALL. you have to delete maybe ten books to make room for even 1% of another porn movie. it's simply not worth your time. so keep them :)22:24
DocScrutinizerthe more complex your readout machine gets, the more headache it gives you when you need to refresh or transcode data in 10, 20, 50 years22:24
wpwrakof course, in the present time, you have the problem of legality and DRM22:24
wpwrakbooks are still pretty basic, at least outside of japan22:25
wpwrakconverting, you may lose things like the typeface and such. but the content will still be very usable.22:27
wpwrak"enhanced" multimedia content will be harder, though. e.g., if your e-book contains a silverlight animation, then you may have e problem in a few years22:27
wpwrakor if it relies on external content22:27
wpwrakthere is a tendency to add non-essential elements to communications (which includes books). thinks like html mails, e-books with an audio track (where the book is being read, so you can enjoy it while in the traffic jam), japanese animated e-books, etc.22:29
LunaVoraxDoes the nanonote have an epub reader ?22:32
wpwrak(HHGTTG) haven't seen it yet. i heard that it wasn't too great, and didn't want to spoil the impression from the books. maybe in a few years, when the memory has faded almost completely :)22:33
LunaVoraxwpwrak, I'm still waitin for the QiPad in the next coming years ;)22:38
LunaVoraxwpwrak, I wasn't goint to say the movie is good22:39
LunaVoraxBut we can see the Hitchhikkers guide22:40
LunaVoraxIt's a beautiful metal book with a big screen divided in two pages22:40
LunaVoraxI wish this device existed :P22:40
wpwrak(qipad) hmm, first i'd like to see a proper nanonote. we now know pretty well what should be different, without changing the product category too much.22:40
wpwrak(guide) aah ! :)22:41
wpwrakactually, i'd rather have some VR glasses or contact lenses :)22:41
wpwrakwhy hold a book if all you want is just see it ?22:42
LunaVoraxKeeping a bit of contact with the real world ?22:42
wpwrakoh, VR glasses exist. i'm not quite sure what's keeping them from working better.22:43
wpwrakcontact lenses would need a bit more work, agreed. maybe a first job for the qi nanotech labs ;-)22:44
DocScrutinizerthe problem is to keep the virtual object created by hologram static while eyes move to scan it22:46
DocScrutinizeresp static in relation to what?22:46
wpwraki'm not sure you need a real hologram. more like a slice of it.22:47
wpwrakstatic wrt your environment ?22:47
DocScrutinizerto your head (like VR goggles)? to the room you're in? to inertia?22:47
wpwrakso you wuoldn't track the eyes but head movements22:47
wpwrakyes, i'd try the room22:47
wpwrakyou can probably have "unnatural" settings that work, too. of course, they'd need some adaptation, with nausea and so on.22:48
DocScrutinizercould be done optically then. Probably also best solution22:48
DocScrutinizeryou need actually a hologram. You could even build such a static hologram contact lens without any special effort nowadays22:49
DocScrutinizeryou even need a whitelight hologram, means a 3D aka volume hologram media22:50
DocScrutinizerwell, thickness of a dozen wavelengths of red is completely sufficient22:51
wpwrakbtw, a plausible explanation for why we react to distortions in our reference system with nausea is that such distortions normally can't happen, so if you experience them, you may be poisoned (in human evolution, not an uncommon event. supermarket food with strictly controlled ingredients, preservatives, and an expiration date, hasn't been around for all that long), and if you're poisoned, it's usually a good idea to vomit - hence the 22:51
DocScrutinizeryeah, heard that explanation22:52
DocScrutinizerseasick is prolly all the same22:53
DocScrutinizeraah yeah distortion of ref sys - pretty comprehensive22:53
DocScrutinizerread a book in car, seasick, zero gravity, vertigo...22:54
wpwrakyeah. in the stone age, the world didn't move around that much. well, except during an earthquake. perhaps their evolutionary response went into claustrophobia22:55
wpwraknot only can you get stuck and starve, or the cave could just collapse, but an earthquake may also trap you22:55
wpwrakbut i don't think earthquakes, nasty as they are, had much of an impact on human evolution22:56
DocScrutinizerthose with claustrophobia were eaten by sabretooth tigers, outside the cave ;-P 22:57
wpwrakyeah, so there's the balancing force :)22:57
wpwrakand the really clever ones domesticated the sabretooth tigers. hence the house cat ;-)22:57
DocScrutinizeralso those too happy all the time and dancing outside instead of staing "at home"22:57
Action: DocScrutinizer heads out hunting a bison between two roll halves22:59
wpwrakthat's why the morlocks eat better than the eloy :)22:59
wpwrakhmm yes, should do a bit of shopping, too23:00
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