#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-10-06

wolfspraulSteve Jobs has died00:32
kristianpaul?00:32
wolfspraultoo early, he will be missed00:32
kristianpaulphr: aboyt moxie, sure it have, just another intersting project, free of patents? well it seems, also all gcc uclinuc and even rtems port, is amazing how this guy work00:34
kristianpaulman ..00:34
kristianpaulwolfspraul: indeed00:36
wolfspraulkristianpaul: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs00:46
wolfspraulwhen the naysayers get a little too loud, read this as source of inspiration :-)00:46
kristianpaulOkay and confirmed I'll give a quick intro workshop about writing patches for milkymist the 27th of this month, at the Universidad ICESI, programa Diseño de Medios Interactivos01:07
wolfspraulnice01:07
kristianpaulAnd hopefully but not confirmed yet in a national meeting about free software called JSL, that will be placed San Juan de Pasto, Nariño, thanks to "La Guardia de TUX" LUG.01:08
wolfsprauljust looked it up - Universidad ICESI is in Cali, Colombia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universidad_Icesi01:09
kristianpaulyes that one01:09
kristianpaulhe, yes forgot to mention the place :)01:09
wolfspraulthey have ca. 5000 students, maybe you can try to recruit ca. 100 full-time hackers for Milkymist? :-)01:10
kristianpaulI alredy asked then to buy a M1 the workshop :)01:10
kristianpaulI doubt the do it, but i tried :)01:10
kristianpaul(recruit) nah, i'm ont such us person, i mean, i even what to mention tecnical detailts in the work shop01:11
kristianpauls/what/whan01:12
kristianpaulfor developers i have a nother plan, but first need to met more hardware hackers, wich are not afraid of modifing the milkymist libc by then self ;)01:12
kristianpaul(starting with me :))01:13
wolfspraulsure sure, I was kidding01:13
wolfspraulit's great that you go there. do you need any marketing material like stickers or brochures?01:13
kristianpaulActually cucuta is a nice place for that, but man almost 800km away from here.01:13
wolfspraulthe best I have right now are the Milkymist stickers01:13
kristianpaulI need to write then again, those guys failed to buy some nanonotes from me, but i dont see other groups more itnerested than then so far01:14
wolfspraulgreat design thanks to Christopher Adams, and very good printing quality thanks to Yi Zhang01:14
kristianpaulah yes !!01:14
kristianpaulI forgot i need marketing01:14
wolfspraulthen we have brochures01:14
wolfspraulbut they are heavy01:14
kristianpaulI have zero brochures aout MM01:14
wolfspraulthe NanoNote and Sharism stickers are far worse technically than the new Milkymist stickers01:14
wolfspraulin design and print quality01:14
kristianpaulmay be 20 stickers.. and still 200 nanonote flyers from cparty01:15
wolfspraulmaybe I send you 300 Milkymist stickers, 30 brochures?01:15
wolfspraulah great, yes01:15
kristianpauland some from nanonote, yes please01:15
wolfsprauldo you need more nanonote or sharism stickers?01:15
kristianpaulwpan had stricker ? ;)01:15
kristianpaulno, i first need run out of this one i had01:15
kristianpauldont you have a Milkymist flyer?01:16
wolfspraulonly brochure01:16
wolfspraulah wait01:16
kristianpaulsomething i can give away no matter if end on the road :)01:16
wolfspraulChristophe made this 1-page flyer for the OHS Summit01:16
kristianpaulOh, i missed that01:16
wolfspraulok, so what do you need now?01:16
wolfspraul300 milkymist stickers, 30 brochures?01:16
wolfspraulthose are 4-page brochures01:16
wolfspraulthen nanonote & sharism stickers?01:17
wolfspraulhow many?01:17
kristianpaul200 should be okay01:17
wolfspraul200 milkymist stickers?01:17
wolfspraulhere is the 1-page flyer http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Christophe_M1_flyer.pdf01:17
kristianpaulno no, nanonote too01:18
kristianpaulwhat you already ofered is okay01:18
kristianpauli save brochures for REALLY interested people, but i still miss a one page milkymist flyer01:18
kristianpaulthat one from OHS looks nice, i think i can translate i later and print some 100 in Black and White01:19
kristianpaulbah no translate, to lazy anyway you need good enblgihs to get in to milkymist :)01:19
kristianpauls/enblgihs/english01:19
wolfspraulcan we make a complete list? :-)01:20
wolfspraul1. 300 milkymist stickers01:20
wolfspraul2. 30 milkymist 4-page brochures01:20
wolfspraul3. 200 nanonote stickers01:20
wolfspraul4. 200 sharism stickers01:20
wolfspraullike that?01:20
kristianpaulyes, sure01:20
wolfspraulgreat01:21
wolfspraulkristianpaul: can we get the moxie guy to give a better intro of his project?01:23
wolfspraulhe seems to be aware of Milkymist, so I'm curious to understand how we can work together, what the overlap is, etc.01:23
wolfspraulwhat is special about moxie? why did he start the project? why not participate in milkymist? can he reuse anything from milkymist? can we help him in any way? and so on01:23
kristianpaulsure, i'm interested to read more from him too, (antgreen nick at milkymist), last i know he had a child, and have a was a phone call away from gcc developers ;)01:27
kristianpauls/had/have01:28
kristianpaulalso moxie cpu is in early stage,01:29
kristianpaulbut he is talking about a muskoka soc too wich is cool01:29
wolfspraulwhich one? muskoka?01:32
kristianpaulyes01:32
wolfspraulI'm just trying to understand the motivations, goals, how to collaborate and share, etc.01:32
kristianpaulsure01:32
kristianpaulha, i already asked him, but few information for what you asked me 01:35
kristianpaulcheck this http://paste.debian.net/134476/01:35
kristianpaulyes, i think i got interested because this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4817950/what-is-the-smallest-simplest-cpu-that-gcc-can-compile-for01:36
kristianpaulbbl, dinner :)01:37
wolfspraulkristianpaul: interesting, that's a start [pastebin chat]01:45
wpwrak(pastebin) that looks old. when was that ?01:58
kristianpaulwpwrak: jue sep 16 201002:00
wpwrak(jobs) hmm, already. a man of many facets to be sure.02:00
wpwrak(2010) ah, that explains it :)02:00
wolfsprauldidn't look old to me, which shows my confusion02:02
wolfspraulwhich parts of that chat are (obviously I guess) outdated now?02:02
wpwraksebastien's dismissal of linux and his statement that rtems "kinda works"02:03
kristianpaulhahah02:04
kristianpaul:)02:04
wpwraki think he's a lot more relaxed about linux vs. rtems now. also because a working linux will get rid of a gazillion of driver issues :)02:05
kristianpaulso, you'll like this https://github.com/atgreen/linux-moxie02:05
wpwrakand of course, there have been setbacks with rtems as well. although nothing too nasty so far.02:05
wpwrakkristianpaul: nice :)02:06
wpwrakhow does that moxie compare to lm32 performance-wise ?02:06
wolfspraulgee, I just realize we have to work on a world-class update process for M102:17
wolfspraulit has been almost 3 months since the last release, and I don't even think we have a documented testing and release process in place, to avoid bricking units accidentally02:17
kristianpaulBtw, i will flash my M1 soon, and i was wondering if tha block flash thing will then avoid me to save patches?02:18
wolfspraulwe need a strong release process with proper testing that avoids releasing regressions02:18
wolfspraulwe need to communicate how people add features to a wishlist in one central place02:18
wolfspraulwe need to communicate the changelog back to existing and potential future customers well02:19
kristianpauluservoice was a wishlist, dunno if still there02:19
wolfspraulwe need to come out with updates at most every 2 months or so, to keep the flow and to avoid discouraging people from filing bugs and feature requests (because it takes too long for them to be realized anyway)02:19
wolfspraula lot of good work :-)02:20
wpwrakyeah, indeed. you need to clone xiangfu a few times :)02:22
kristianpaul"When you're young, you look at television and think, There's a conspiracy. The networks have conspired to dumb us down" lol02:52
kristianpauloh man what follows.. 02:53
kristianpaulso the PDA is back, and now speaks, cool :)03:10
kristianpaulviric: that remind, can use the nanonote spearker/buzzer to remenber to do something?03:17
macI am thinking of getting a nanonote and have looked unsuccessfully for estimates of battery life.  I am currently a Zaurus user and would like more than the one day life I get now.  How does the nanonote do?04:00
virickristianpaul: I don't use the nn for that, though. It could work.05:26
LunaVoraxOh well05:41
LunaVoraxA good thing I'm not religious, otherwise I would feel guilty for yesterday05:41
virickristianpaul: ah, you mean the program 'remind'?07:01
viricI'm not that an expert in 'remind'07:05
wpwrakviric: forgetful ? :)07:08
viricAbout that, I'm an expert, yes07:08
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-10052011-0521/09:29
antoniodariushHi I am trying to test libunistring on nanonote but I get segfaults so there is something wrong with libunistring09:58
antoniodariushthis is the program I use to test libunistring  http://pastebin.com/KqnDyvTL09:59
antoniodariushafter cross compile this I get segfaults09:59
antoniodariushdo you think this is related to libunistring or something else?10:00
kristianpaulviric: yes remind11:08
viricantoniodariush: *(strlen(s) + 1)   does this help?11:38
antoniodariushviric, the strange thing is that the program runs fine on my host machine11:40
kyakthere is not a single program on Ben that uses libunistring; so it can't be proved whether the library segfaults or not11:50
antoniodariushthat's why I wanted to test it 11:50
antoniodariushI want to compile guile 2.0 which depends on libunistring11:52
antoniodariushbut guile 2.0 fails and I guess is coming from libunistring 11:53
kyaksounds like a job for gdb.. or strace at least11:58
kyakbtw, do you have the latest image?12:01
viricantoniodariush: well, that's not that strange12:02
antoniodariushkyak, I am building my own image with the latest feeds12:04
wpwrakantoniodariush: maybe try running it under valgrind on the host. that will probably tell you about the insufficient allocation12:33
antoniodariushwpwrak, ok i'll have a look 13:20
antoniodariushwhy is libunistring depending libiconv instead of libiconv-full ? http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/libunistring/Makefile13:29
wolfspraulmac: you had a question earlier but nobody was fast enough to answer I think :-)13:36
wolfspraulI think it was about battery lifetime? (checking backlogs now)13:38
macwolfspraul:  Yes, I was just wondering about typical battery lifetime.13:38
wolfspraulthe NanoNote comes with a 850mAh battery by default13:38
macDo you usually get a couple of days work out of that?13:39
wolfspraulthat will give you between 4 and 15 hours, that seems to be the consensus13:39
wolfspraul15 hours for music playing with screen off13:39
wolfspraulbacklight needs a lot of power13:39
wolfsprauland 4 hours with video playing13:39
wolfspraulI think over time the battery may loose some power, after hundreds of recharge cycles. Like any other li-ion cell.13:40
macI will be using it for command line based data entry.13:40
wolfspraulsome people are using 1200 mAh batteries in their nanonotes (nokia bl-5c types)13:40
wolfspraulthey will not really fit well, it's about tolerances, but if you squeeze the battery door somewhat they do fit13:41
wolfspraulwith a bl-5c or even bl-6c (but then the battery door will definitely not fit) you will get a lot more hours13:42
wolfspraulbut anyway, most people use the normal bl-4c 850mAh type13:42
wolfspraul4-15 hours13:42
wolfspraul:-)13:42
macI have been using a zaurus for this up until now.  I typically turn the unit on and off throughout a 6 hour period.  Does the nanonote go in and out of  sleep mode easily?13:43
macThanks for the responses.  As you can probably guess I am new at the chat thing.13:44
wolfsprauleven better, you are very welcome here13:44
mthsuspend and resume should be less than a second each13:44
mthwith the latest kernel, not sure if the shipped kernel also has suspend to ram13:44
wolfspraulI don't think sleep (suspend/resume) are well implemented for the end user right now13:44
wolfspraulthey do work in principal, but I doubt it's fully functional in the gui etc.13:45
mthwe have a daemon for system functions on the Dingoo, suspend is power + A there13:45
mththe daemon could be ported, probably it just needs a different hotkey config13:45
wolfspraulyes we have triggerhappy on the nanonote, I'm just not *sure* right now it all works13:45
wolfspraulfor suspend/resume13:45
mthok13:45
mthworst case, you could issue the suspend command from the command line13:46
macSuspend from command line will work just fine.   A little ZZ script.13:47
wolfsprauland a request from someone like mac who wants to use a NanoNote for a real life application may be the one last drop that makes us prioritize this to the point that it gets done well :-)13:47
macOne last:  I use sqlite.  Does that come with the os/ is it in the feed?13:47
wolfspraulgood question, let's see13:48
bartbesantoniodariush: I tried both, iirc13:48
bartbesthough of course I had no way of seeing which one actually worked13:48
antoniodariushok13:49
wolfspraulmac: here is a first overview of apps/libraries http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications13:49
antoniodariushcan we try to use libinconv-full?13:49
antoniodariushdo you have it already so i can try it out?13:49
wolfspraullibsqlite3 is listed there (but that's a wiki and may be outdated). let's see in the build dirs13:49
wolfspraulhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/latest/config13:51
wolfspraulCONFIG_PACKAGE_libsqlite3=y13:51
wolfspraulmac: so yes, pretty sure it's in the latest OpenWrt image13:51
wolfspraulwhen you get a NanoNote, it will not have the latest image, so you first need to upgrade to the latest image, 2011-08-2813:52
macThanks.  I ordered last night and look forward to getting started on it.13:53
wolfspraulwow great13:54
wolfspraulmac: please stop by here again when you get it, we can most likely make your first steps much easier13:54
wolfsprauleven if something doesn't work, your feedback may make us fix whatever problems you run into13:55
macwolfspraul:  I will.  Thanks again.13:55
kristianpaulI'm really happy with my ben,14:23
kristianpaulBoot time had improved a lot, so i yday used it (instead of my laptop) to  transfer son logs files from a fsck log14:24
kristianpauls/son/some14:24
kristianpaulI must recall i was in a datacenter, so the faster the better to get out of the place soon :)14:27
wolfspraulnice14:29
wolfspraulI think the software for the Ben is on a good track14:29
wolfspraulthe goals remain the same :-) still more and better kernel.org upstream support, finally the same for u-boot, keep a small diff with openwrt upstream14:29
wolfspraulbetter testing process for image releases14:30
wolfspraulbetter update procedures (not just full reflashing)14:30
kristianpaulah,ye, last days i been loading the ben memcard with some content, most of then in html14:30
wolfspraulbetter software (music, math, dictionary, etc), better scripting, better ways to download data like maps, music, videos14:31
wolfsprauland so on :-)14:31
wolfsprauldelay tolerant networks, voip14:31
kristianpaulthere are plenty software now, improve documentatio yes, and a better file manager14:32
wolfspraulfaster boot, suspend/resume, reliable alarm clock, fix bugs in general14:33
wolfspraulI'm wondering whether Hans Bezemer got his nano back to boot from nand14:33
wolfspraulit looked like he got a bad block exactly in a place where our software cannot handle it14:33
wolfspraulunfortunately then it went silent, I hope his nano works. need to followup, that would be an interesting bug to fix.14:34
wolfsprauloh we need to look at the partitioning again as well14:34
Action: kristianpaul :)14:34
wolfspraulmaybe find an easy solution to backup all data, and/or to encrypt all data14:34
kristianpaulat least to keep setting after upgrade14:35
wolfspraulusb gadgets! make it easy to switch the ben to become a keyboard, mouse, soundcard, usb storage, etc.14:35
kristianpauli lost 6 levels from alex4 last time :?14:35
kristianpauls/:?/:/14:35
wolfspraulso there's a lot of good stuff that I hope we get to in time, without creating a maintenance mess, i.e. everything 100% upstream14:35
wolfspraulor as much as possible14:35
wolfspraulI think more and easier ways to upgrade software, to backup and encrypt data would be great14:36
wolfspraulright now it's all too manual and too complicated14:36
kristianpaulslow :)14:36
kristianpaulyes,backup make sense too14:37
kristianpaulmay be something like,if you plug a memcard it automatically askyou to backup your /root/ /etc folder on it14:38
antoniodariushbartbes, compiling libunistring with liconv-full fails http://pastebin.com/2MzM23Yz14:38
kristianpaulantgreen: hi! 14:41
antgreenhello14:41
wolfspraulantgreen: you are the moxie guy, right? a nice project and it's good we finally take more notice of it!14:42
antgreenyes - that's me! 14:42
wolfspraulwhat do you hope to achieve with moxie?14:42
Action: antgreen is working - have a work related IRC going on right now. will be slow to respond.14:43
wolfspraulyou are aware of Milkymist - is there overlap? what's different from Milkymist? can you reuse anything from Milkymist or vice versa? what help are you looking for the most wrt moxie right now?14:43
wolfspraulno problem, this channel is logged and easy to search14:43
wolfsprauland I think moxie is a search friendly name :-)14:43
wolfspraulhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/search?q=moxie14:44
wolfspraulso you can reply slowly, we find it in the backlog or search...14:44
wolfspraulthis may be a stupid question, but hey, have to dare to ask, right? :-) so...14:51
wolfspraulthere is always this talk of adding a MMU to lm3214:51
antgreenyes, I've known about milkymist for a long time, and lekernel and I have traded a few mails and chatted on IRC over the past couple of years14:51
wolfspraulif we would do that, would that mmu be lm32-specific? does moxie have an mmu? if not, can a yet-to-be-written lm32 mmu be ported over to moxie one day, or is it closely tied to the core so that that makes no sense14:51
bartbesantoniodariush: that might be why it used libiconv, it compiled and didn't complain15:14
bartbes:P15:14
antgreenre: "what do you hope to achieve with moxie?".  right now it is a learning platform for me, but I certainly hope that it becomes a useful and competitive soft-core with a solid software stack.15:15
antoniodariushbartbes, it went fine now with liconv-full but now I cannot build that simple program15:15
antgreenI come from a dev tools background, and have been involved in many many GNU tools ports (including the original NIOS GCC port, which was my first exposure to FPGAs)15:16
antoniodariushi get this error : http://pastebin.com/hRJVMbtK15:16
antgreenand I was surprised at how many compiler-unfriendly processors there were out there15:16
antgreenso creating my own compiler friendly ISA has a been an interest for a long time,15:17
antgreenand definitely possible with all of the great free software these days.15:17
bartbesantoniodariush: sounds like a missing -l flag15:17
antgreenwolfspraul: there is no MMU for moxie yet, although somebody sent me notes on a possible MMU design 15:18
antgreenI would love to collaborate on an MMU, but am concerned about licensing.15:18
antgreenI currently use GPL, but eventually will switch to something more liberal (less Free), like MIT or BSD15:19
wolfspraulcurious - why?15:20
antgreenSo I would like an MIT or BSD licensed MMU15:20
wolfspraulthe core is the only part in Milkymist that is not GPL :-)15:20
antgreenGPL doesn't map cleanly to hardware descriptions, also, I want moxie to be maximally useful to people, and there is still a lot of resistance around GPL, especially in embedded15:21
antoniodariushbart15:21
antoniodariushbartbes, * where about?15:21
antgreenI love the GPL, don't get me wrong.15:21
bartbesantoniodariush: it just looks like it's not linking with libiconv15:22
antgreenI wrote/maintain a library called libffi that is very popular and gets lots of contributions, but I think the BSD license is a big part of that15:22
wolfspraulno worries, we are all relaxed here and try to understand15:22
wolfspraulI would agree about the resistance in the industry, but you can say the same about patents. to most companies, unless you stuff is patented it hardly exists, definitely not 'yours', etc.15:23
wolfspraulso if you have unpatented bsd stuff, you will still see the same end result, people saying "legally unsafe" (because unpatented :-))15:23
antgreenbah - don't get me started15:23
wolfspraulthen you will start to file patents as well?15:23
antgreenI'm not sure.15:24
wolfspraulI'm just saying those in embedded that have a problem with the GPL probably also have a problem with unpatented tech15:24
antgreenYes, I'm sure there's some overlap.15:24
wolfspraulit's just so natural to patent for them, if you don't that means something is wrong with your stuff15:24
wolfspraulbut feel free to choose whatever you like and let us know whether you feel it changes anything15:25
antgreenthey are mostly useful to raise money from investors15:25
antgreenwhat would be really great is a license that speaks directly to processor IP.15:26
wolfspraulscary, isn't it :-) the herd...15:26
antgreenlike I said, GPL doesn't map very cleanly, so I don't think people will immedialy know what their responsibilities are for GPL HDL15:27
antgreenLGPL makes even less sense IMO15:27
wolfspraulso you mean an mmu could well be designed and work for both moxie and lm32? the same mmu?15:27
antgreenopencores has really promoted LGPL for hardware IP, and I think that's sad15:28
wolfspraulwould that make it sub-optimal for both?15:28
antgreenI don't think so15:28
antgreenI mean, I think the same MMU could work for both, and not be sub-optimal15:28
wolfspraulinteresting15:29
wolfspraulwhat are the highest quality opencores projects in your opinion15:29
wolfsprauland in which products are opencores projects used?15:29
antgreenI don't know enough to judge15:30
wolfspraulsorry gotta go soon, this is all very helpful that you explain a bit about moxie! cool!15:32
wolfspraulone more question:15:32
LunaVoraxis BSD licensing wrong?15:32
wolfspraulwhat are the next most important features/bugs you want to work on in moxie?15:32
wolfspraulI have the impression that in the long run, gpl licensed projects tend to have a more balanced multi-party contributor structure (the ones that are successful and have any active contributors at all)15:33
wolfspraulwhen I see a BSD project, I tend to be a little cautious on that, and check whether it's actually mainly controlled by 1 party (which may or may not be a problem, just saying in response to your gpl/bsd question)15:34
wolfspraulbut no, I don't think there is anything wrong with BSD15:34
aisaThere was a fascinating article, some long while ago, researching user communities around BSD/GPL/&c licenses.15:35
wolfspraulfor data, I'm even leaning towards public domain lately, cc-zero etc. nobody follows those multi-page agreements anyway15:35
aisaIIRC, GPL was an amazing bootstrap, but that some communities would/could/did benefit, after becoming mature, in switching to the BSD license.15:35
wolfspraulcan you find the url?15:36
bartbesantgreen: you made libffi? awesome!15:36
antgreenbartbes: thanks!15:37
aisaI'm looking.  I'm finding conversation, but not convinced yet that I've found exactly what I read.15:37
aisathis is the only thing I've found:15:40
aisahttp://www.softpanorama.org/Copyright/License_classification/index.shtml15:40
antgreenwolfspraul: I agree that GPL is a great choice for the reason you describe above.  I've been dealing with GPL-in-embedded for many years now (since '95), and I think it's the wrong choice for semiconductor IP today.15:40
aisaI'm not sure if that is what I read, though.15:40
antgreenGPLv3 is particularly bad.15:40
antgreenWell, let me step back a second...15:41
antgreenIf you want to maximize your user base, the GPL isn't the first license I would choose.15:41
aisaThe article I read was strictly a research paper, and didn't have a horse in the race, as it where.15:43
aisaso if my above linked article takes a stand in conclusion, it's the wrong one :-)15:43
antgreenwolfspraul: re "what are the next most important features/bugs you want to work15:45
antgreen     on in moxie?": there's so much to do!  First, I want it to run code!  I don't know if you've been following my blog, but I basically got it to execute its first few instructions the other day.  15:45
antgreenNow I need to access RAM, and am trying to figure out how to best do that.15:45
antgreenIt looks like I will use separate busses for instruction and data memory15:46
antgreenbut I'm not sure yet how to handle reads and writes on the same data bus.15:47
antgreenthis is computer architecture 101 stuff15:47
antgreenI'm starting at the beginning!15:47
antgreenit will (and has been) a long haul15:48
antgreenmaybe I'll be ready for Milkymist Three15:49
antgreen:-)15:49
wpwrakaisa: (changing license) if the project has a mixed group of contributors and doesn't require copyright assignments for contributions or similar, it's usually not feasible to switch the license at a later point in time16:57
aisaI was trying to quote the researcher, you're correct that the problem contains nuance.16:58
aisaIIRC, and I may not, the researcher was saying that socially, being able to do such a thing would result in a net-benefit.16:58
aisabut it has been many years.16:58
wpwrakwhat the GPL does very nicely is to give people who contribute the safety that they're not being exploited. it may also keep some of the nastier characters away from the project, which also helps.16:59
wpwrakfor companies, there's probably not such a big difference between contributing to BSD-licensed and contributing to GPL-licensed (at least for GPLv2). few really have the kind of long-term plans where the difference would matter.17:01
aisaI guess you'll have to find the researcher in question and ask him about it. :-)17:01
phri tend to stay away from volunteer development for BSD projects... i'm happy to work on them if i'm getting paid17:02
aisaI certainly have my own horse in this race, but I'm not entertaining a change of opinion on the matter, myself.  I was hoping, in my mentioning it, to cite data, whether it matched my preference or not.  Which I find always interesting even when it challenges my own assumptions.17:03
wpwrak(net benefit) hmm, i see it as a good flame bait if you do it without including it in the roadmap from very early on ;-) and if people know it's coming, it may actually prevent contributions even before the switch. kinda like the osborne effect.17:03
wpwrakaisa: yeah, if you can dig out the reference, that would be interesting17:04
aisaI posted above what it *might* have been, alas I was not able to confirm this was what I read.17:04
aisaIt was a good number of years ago, and a lot of electrons have been inconvenienced on the topic since thene,17:04
wpwraklicensing discussions tend to have that effect, yes ;-)17:05
aisathen*, and I wasn't sufficiently able to articulate to google that I didn't want the results it was returning.17:05
aisaall of the links I'm finding are advocacy, alas.17:06
kristianpaulantgreen: You are making your own wishbone variant,or all upstream as posible including IP cores?17:08
kristianpaulantgreen: btw so you moxie cpu is ready, just missing how to put the SoC towork together?17:09
aisaok, it was very much this link: http://www.softpanorama.org/Copyright/License_classification/index.shtml17:10
aisait has been greatly expanded since I last visited it.17:10
aisaand my memory of it may not be consistent with it's current incarnation.17:10
aisabut it may be!17:10
aisawpwrak: in case you didn't see, I did post the url referring to my memory, exactly for what it is worth.  ;-)17:12
antgreenkristianpaul: I want to reuse as much surrounding logic as possible, so standard wishbone.17:21
antgreenthe moxie core isn't even ready yet17:22
antgreenit's under slow-but-active development17:22
antgreenI have never even run anything on hardware yet.  Just iverilog and gtkwave.17:23
antgreenI have a Altera DE2 board waiting, though,17:23
antgreenand I'm synthesizing with altera's tools.17:23
kristianpaulantgreen: but the gcc port?17:25
antgreendone17:25
kristianpaulI meanso i get updated as soon you mvoe17:25
kristianpaulok17:25
kristianpauls/i/it17:25
antgreenit's all upstream in FSF's gcc tre17:25
antgreene.  As well as gdb and binutils.17:25
kristianpaulqemu?17:26
antgreenI have a linux kernel that boots on a sim, and a qemu port17:26
antgreenand RTEMS and u-boot ports17:26
antgreenand uClibc17:26
antgreenand busybox17:26
antgreenbut only the gnu tools work are upstream17:26
antgreenthe rest are in moxiedev: http://github.com/atgreen/moxiedev17:27
kristianpaulyeah,your repo is quite impresive ;)17:27
antgreenthanks!17:27
bartbesregarding licensing: copyleft is fine for 'products', but imo a library(/utility?) or similar really benefits from copyfree, since copyleft severely limits your users17:28
bartbeseven for 'products', if you plan on letting other people work with your code, copyleft is kind of a dick move17:29
wpwrakaisa: (link) thanks !17:33
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