#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-10-05

paroneayealinuxperv: :D01:27
linuxpervthe milkymist does have usb01:31
paroneayeawell there you go01:31
wolfspraulparoneayea: hey, you come here :-) welcome!01:44
wolfspraulkristianpaul: what is the moxie processor?01:45
kristianpaul"The Moxie processor is a general purpose load-store processor."01:53
kristianpaulI jsut had been following, looks itneresing project, they also have a WIP SoC01:53
kristianpauli think you can ask antgreen at #milkymist for details01:54
kristianpaulThere is a wiki http://moxielogic.org/wiki01:54
wolfspraulnot much in the wiki at first glance01:58
wolfspraulis it all freely licensed?01:58
wolfspraulwhere are the sources?01:58
wolfspraulshould we add the blog to the qi planet?01:58
kristianpaulblog yes, why not02:01
kristianpaulsources https://github.com/atgreen02:01
kristianpaullicense seems gplv2 for HDL02:03
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-10032011-2306/03:14
wolfspraulkristianpaul: ok interesting!03:18
wolfspraulhow could this project relate with Milkymist?03:19
kristianpaulwell, i just see another SoC coming,so is an alternative, but in early state still it seems03:36
phri don't understand why moxie.  doesn't opencores.org have lots of those?06:34
blogicwpwrak: ping06:36
wpwrakblogic: phew. back home from dinner with quite a lot of beer. let's see how useful i'm now :)06:38
blogicwpwrak: the story goes like this ... i was contatced by some old friends that are playing with 802.15.4. the aim is to integrate it in owrt and build some demo apps06:57
wpwrakblogic: do you have any specific hardware in mind ?06:57
blogici saw that there are patches sent upstream to support the 802.15.4 inside the kernel and then went on to find hw06:57
blogicyes, that is where you come into the play :)06:57
wpwrakhehe :) we have the finest hardware :)06:58
blogici browsed around and saw the nanonote has the wpan dongle06:58
blogicso i ma told06:58
blogicanyhow i know mirco and lars quite well and the pinted me your way06:58
wpwrak(well, actually we don't. but that's a good marketing message nevertheless. and the other may be harder to put to use than ours anyway :)06:58
blogicis the dongle already on sale ?06:58
blogici saw some pics i think on your web site of a large batch of pcbs06:59
wpwrakyup. both - the one for the ben and the one for usb06:59
blogicgot a link ?06:59
wpwraknot a lot have been made, but i think tuxbrain would be more than happy to tell the fab to produce some more06:59
blogicdo you know whom at tuxbrain i oculd contact ?07:00
wpwrakthe project overview page is here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/07:00
wpwrakthe tuxbrain shop page is here: https://www.tuxbrain.net/shop/index.php?cPath=34707:01
blogiclooks like the server is down07:01
wpwrakwhich one ?07:01
wpwraktuxbrain is almost one man: David Reyes Samblas Martinez <davidsamblas@tuxbrain.com>07:02
wpwrakworks from here07:02
wpwrakmaybe your government is at war with spain ? :)07:03
blogici am based in germany07:03
blogicthere are no spanish troops here and if german troops were in spain the tv would probably tell me07:04
wpwrakhmm. well, spain is part of the PIGS/PIIGS. so in a way, yes.07:04
blogicdont mention the war ! :)07:04
blogicNo match for "WWW.TUXBRAIN.NET".07:05
blogic>>> Last update of whois database: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 07:02:45 UTC <<<07:05
blogicthat is what whois says07:05
blogicok started working again07:05
wpwrakthat's normal for whois. but it should know tuxbrain.net07:05
wpwrakwhee ! :)07:06
wpwrakyou summoned the master himself :)07:06
blogictuxbrain: aloha07:06
blogicwhat must i do to get some wpan dongles ? :D07:06
tuxbrainbuy them? :P07:06
tuxbrainhow many do you need?07:06
blogicnot sure yet07:07
blogicprobbaly 5 or so07:07
blogici just need some hw to integrate this stuf finto openwrt07:07
blogicso i just need 207:08
blogicnot sure what the other guys need07:08
blogicbut now that i know the link and price and so on i can move along with the planning07:08
blogicis the firmware used int he atmel also open ?07:08
tuxbrainsure :) almost all wpwrak work is on his repo :)07:09
blogici also saw some imx based hw, but it looked like some closed source stuff07:09
blogicso the atben is not a sdio card i assume07:11
blogicand i can hook it up to some other hw that has enough spare gpios i assume07:11
wpwraki don't know about imx. but there's a somewhat smarter chip. pretty nice actually. but in an evil LGA package (LGA = BGA with a twist or two)07:12
wpwrakatben needs GPIO bit-banging07:12
blogiclga is not that bad07:12
wpwraklet me dig it out ...07:12
wpwrakit's the MC1322x07:13
blogicnot imx07:14
blogicgot confused there07:14
Action: blogic needs to dig out his eu vatid so he can order07:14
wpwrakthe MC13224 data sheet is here: http://www.freescale.com/files/rf_if/doc/data_sheet/MC1322x.pdf07:16
wpwrakthe good stuff is on page 52 ;-)07:16
wpwrakit does have a pretty little ARM7 though07:17
wpwrakbut anyway, what we here have it a bit simpler, with the idea that the host does most of the work07:17
blogici think i'll just start with ordering 2 usb dongles07:18
blogicok thx for the info !07:21
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: media: radio: RDA5807: Configure inputs and outputs using platform data. (jz-3.0) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/903454109:11
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: media: radio: RDA5807: Print fatal problems using dev_err instead of dev_warn. (jz-3.0) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/26e471609:11
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: MIPS: A320: Specify platform data for RDA5807. (jz-3.0) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/40201cd09:11
blogicwpwrak: still around ?09:26
blogicwpwrak: do you use kicad ?09:26
DocScrutinizeryou bet he does, he augmented it severely to make it fit for that purpose09:32
blogicactually i asked rather then bet09:33
blogicbut thanks for th einfo09:33
wpwrakblogic: DocScrutinizer would have won the bet for you :) yes, i use kicad11:23
wpwrakand yes, there's quite a bit of scripts and things that make it work better for out purposes :) http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/11:24
wpwrakand components/footprints for kicad: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/11:24
DocScrutinizermoo wpwrak :-D11:24
blogicwhois DocScrutinizer11:25
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: oink :)11:25
paroneayeawolfspraul: I missed your welcome, but thanks :)15:12
wolfspraulno problem, of course15:26
wolfspraulhappy to see you here15:26
paroneayealinuxperv is also a pretty great person who does a bit of stuff in the maker / electronics space and was getting interested in the milky mist15:27
paroneayeaher joining was a reminder that I should probably join this channel also :)15:27
wolfspraulnice - any links to linuxperv's projects or areas of interest?15:30
wpwrak"unixsluts.com" nice ;-)15:35
linuxpervoh hi15:41
linuxpervno i don't have much on the web and don't do anything too exciting ;p15:41
methril_workhi all16:55
methril_workwpwrak, did you take a look to this http://www.openscad.org/ ?16:55
methril_worki remember you did a sw for the 3D scan of the Ben case, isn`t it?16:56
wpwrak(openscad) yes, i experimented a bit with it. i like the approach, the speed at which it works, and also the "IDE"17:02
wpwrakwhat i don't like about it is the still very limited set of functions, the rendering artefacts in the "quick preview", and the poor handling of ambiguities in the model17:03
wpwraki didn't make software for the actual scanning, but i made a tool for bringing a top and a bottom scan into alignment17:04
LunaVoraxDamn I'm angry at Apple20:54
LunaVoraxiOS 5 looks so cool with it's voice recognition that understand what you mean20:54
LunaVoraxWhy don't I have the same thing under Linux ?20:54
LunaVoraxIt would be like the future is now :P20:55
Aylabecause at Apple, they're paid20:55
LunaVoraxAren't Linux developers paid also ?20:55
Ayla5% of them, maybe20:57
LunaVoraxJust a moment20:59
LunaVoraxI've read an article about that some time ago20:59
LunaVoraxHere you go Ayla http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm20:59
mththat's kernel though21:00
mthI think desktop is still mostly volunteers21:00
mthwhich also explains why the desktop is in a relatively poor shape21:00
LunaVoraxYep I made a misconseption21:01
LunaVoraxIt really is a shame imho21:01
Aylaand that also explains why I feel Android is so great :D21:01
LunaVoraxAndroid sucks21:01
mthat least with Linux you can run apps that are not signed; iOS won't let you do that21:02
LunaVoraxYeah... But Java, seriously ?21:02
LunaVoraxOn a phone ?21:02
mthJava has been running on phones for ages: J2ME21:03
mththe main problem with J2ME was that all phones had different bugs21:03
Aylawhat's wrong with Java?21:03
LunaVoraxYeah and therefore been criticized for ages21:03
LunaVoraxVirtual machines21:03
LunaVoraxThat's the whole problem21:03
LunaVoraxI have yet to experience a non-sluggy Java application21:04
LunaVoraxI'm not joking21:04
Aylathe problem is not Java or virtual machines21:04
Aylathe problem is how those Java apps are coded21:04
LunaVoraxJava have his part in the process21:05
LunaVoraxAs well as some other languages have other problems21:05
LunaVoraxI just happen to hate Java more than the others21:06
LunaVorax(maybe not as much as C# though)21:06
AylaSorry, I disagree.21:22
Aylaand Android's virtual machine seems to be quite good21:22
wpwrakLunaVorax: you anger is good. the more you hate a problem, the more likely you are to solve it :-)22:03
LunaVoraxProbably not, I don't use to be a smart person.22:04
LunaVoraxwpwrak, but I would just head down on similar software for the Nanonote :P22:05
wpwrakno, really. the motivation for almost anything that is done well is some deep discomfort with the status quo ante22:05
LunaVoraxOh I see22:06
LunaVoraxwpwrak, an unrealted serious question22:06
LunaVoraxIs wanting to work at Qi a good goal in like ?22:07
wpwrakwhat you need is what is called "an itch to scratch". something that fills you with an irresistible desire to solve the problem22:07
wpwrakthere is not much of "working at qi". qi is just some 3-4 people, not a big company22:07
LunaVoraxThat's what I wanted to know in fact22:08
LunaVoraxIf in some future there could be some place22:08
wpwrakbut doing the kind of work that's happening here, be it for qi or in some other way, seems very reasonable goal to me22:08
LunaVoraxOk so I'm on the right road already22:09
LunaVoraxA long one but still the good one22:09
wpwraki don't know if qi will ever be a big employer. but the movement is not limited to qi.22:09
LunaVoraxMaybe it needs a big income boom to think about it22:12
Aylado you guys use Dosbox on your nanonote?22:14
wpwrakof course, having more money will help to move things forward22:14
Aylaand if so, are you using Slaaneesh's statically linked and closed source port?22:14
LunaVoraxI tried to and I failed Ayla it seems to have some troubles with the screen res22:14
Aylayes, same here, on dingoo ...22:14
wpwrakAyla: me, no. gave up on DOS some 20 years ago :)22:15
LunaVoraxAyla, indeed :)22:15
Aylait wants to use a 640x400 screen resolution22:15
Aylawpwrak: what about your "msdos" driver then? :p22:15
wpwrak1992 ;-)22:16
Aylafair enough :)22:16
wpwrakand i didn't need DOS for it ;-)22:16
LunaVoraxwpwrak, I think Qi needs better advertisment but it's kind of hard since Qi's product aren't really for "everyone" for now (exemple, I don't really see my brother buying a Nanonote)22:16
Aylayou must be old22:17
AylaI bet you have a big beard22:17
wpwrakLunaVorax: oh yeah, advertizing is weak. 22:17
LunaVoraxBeware, MS-DOS fanboys still exist22:17
Aylalike every linux guru22:17
wpwrakAyla: naw, i shave almost each time i crawl out of my cave22:17
LunaVoraxLinus doesn't have a beard22:17
Aylaand I get laid everytime I reboot my linux computer22:18
wpwrakconsidering that linux needs rebooting almost never, i kinda feel sorry for you :)22:18
Aylaand do you actually crawl out of your cave from time to time? :p22:19
LunaVoraxwpwrak, don't even reboot when you recompile the kernel ? :o22:20
Aylamaybe he uses kexec22:20
LunaVoraxOh, I don't know that22:20
wpwrakAyla: oh yes, often enough to make the unbearding experience not too dreadful :)22:20
Aylaok :)22:21
wpwrakAyla: (kexec) i actually like clean reboots, at least during development. but yes, being one of the kexec lobbyists, that would indeed be a choice :)22:21
Aylaabout kexec22:23
AylaI've been working on a bootloader for the JZ474022:23
Aylathe goal is to have a small (< 8k) bootloader which can then load a linux kernel from a UBI drive22:24
Aylaor better, to launch kexecboot22:24
AylaI thought you'd like to hear about that22:26
whitequarkdoes anyone possibly know a place where one could talk with an experienced USB developer?22:55
whitequarkI'm trying to de-proprietarize an h.264 HD webcam22:55
steve|mwhitequark: you could pm 'CareBear\' (Peter Stuge, one of the libusb/coreboot devs)22:57
whitequarksteve|m: thanks!22:58
steve|mbut sniffing what the windows driver does and then trying to replay it with a small libusb-application and see what happens is a good start22:58
whitequarksteve|m: O22:58
whitequarkI'm currently doing that, but it does several hundreds of control transfers at init22:59
whitequark(I'm sniffing WinXP machine under virtualbox, by the way)22:59
whitequarkI am able to capture a valid H.264 stream from the webcam, but it has one weird property23:00
whitequarkeach frame is compressed to ~12K (yes, kilobytes) of data23:00
whitequarkthey contain a very distorted, but actual image23:00
steve|mhmm.. some sort of RLE?23:01
whitequarksteve|m: nope23:01
whitequarkit's h.26423:01
whitequarkbut compressed with a ratio of maybe 99%23:01
whitequarkthere are 7 extension units defined in this camera, of which 4 are also present on non-h264-capable ones (checked by googling up lsusb -v's)23:02
whitequarkso, other three (which are only defined on my exact webcam) somehow tune the encoder23:02
whitequarkthey contain a total of 19 vendor-specific controls.23:03
steve|mdoes the h264 data you captured on windows have the same properties?23:04
whitequarksteve|m: well. the only app known to capture h264 from this camera is Skype (it's skypecam, moreover, it is originally intended for use with skype TVs), and it crashes on my VM by some reason23:05
whitequarkbut it is known to work on a real machine23:05
whitequarkI cannot capture h264, however, as only Skype knows how to handle this webcam23:05
steve|mah okay.. so it can't be used as a WDM camera device on windows?23:06
whitequarkit's a valid UVC cam23:06
whitequarkit supports MJPEG, YUYV and H26423:06
whitequarkmjpeg and yuyv work perfectly on both windows & linux23:06
steve|mI see, so only h264 doesn23:06
whitequarkWindows itself does not even try to initialize h264 stream, as that is an extension or something like that23:07
steve|m't work..23:07
whitequarkthere is a standard on H264, but it is broken23:07
whitequarkso they just took the way MPEG streams are presented, changed first four bytes (they're fourcc by convention) in GUID to H26423:07
steve|mmaybe the ffmpeg/vlc guys could help you23:07
whitequarkand that's it -- now they have an "h264" webcam23:07
whitequarkthe problem isn't with the stream, actually23:07
whitequarkit's with the way to tell the camera to compress the stream with a given ratio23:08
whitequarkstream is fine, it can be played by mplayer e.g.23:08
whitequarkI just concatenate all the frames and that's it23:08
whitequarkI should somehow snoop the URBs which are setting XU parameters on Windows, but to date I'm unable to filter them from all the requests stream23:09
steve|mwhich tool are you using? device monitoring studio?23:10
mthis it possible the H.264 encoder has a configurable maximum bitrate and it's set extremely low by default?23:10
whitequarkcurrently I start WinXP in virtualbox, load usbmon module on Linux host and launch wireshark there23:10
whitequarkmth: that's it23:10
whitequarkI think it is exactly the problem23:10
steve|mah yes, wireshark23:11
whitequarknow I "just" need to determine which of the 19 (at least) vendor-specific parameters with an unknown type control that.23:11
mthcan you selectively block them between the VM and the hardware?23:12
whitequarkmth: I think no. EHCI controller in VirtualBox is a blob23:12
mthand between VB and Linux? is there only monitoring there or also filtering?23:13
whitequarkonly monitoring, VB uses a kernel module to forward requests23:13
mthah, that's a pain23:14
whitequarksteve|m: so, Device Monitoring Studio is an analogue of usbmon+wireshark for Windows?23:14
whitequarkmth: even if there were some filtering capabilities, I am still unable to determine which requests go to XUs23:14
whitequarkthere are over 800 of them in the init sequence. I'll get mad knocking them off one by one23:15
mthnot one by one, ideally you should be able to filter out about half23:15
steve|mwhitequark: yes23:15
mthis there a client setting for image quality maybe that changes the max bitrate?23:16
mthI mean, if they go through the trouble of making it configurable, I'd expect there could be a way to change the value at runtime23:17
whitequarkmth: it is adjusted by Skype automatically according to network conditions23:17
whitequarkthat may be exploitable, yes23:17
whitequarkeven funnier, Skype actually has a nice spec for encoding webcams on their site23:18
whitequarkof course, my one is not even nearly conformant23:18
mthcan you do record and playback of the full init sequence?23:21
mthif so, you could also stop halfway and check if the bitrate config was already applied23:22
whitequarkmth: I don't think there is an easy way (i.e. not manual) of replaying a recorded usbmon dump23:24
whitequarksteve|m: that looks affordable. I think my employer may get it for me.23:25
whitequarkokay, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try these tomorrow23:33
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