#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-09-15

qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-0141/00:40
wpwrakyes ! finally killed a nasty bug in fped. figuring out that one took something like a year :)00:42
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fped/obj.c (generate_items): handle failure to expand package name gracefully (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/b8f1add00:43
freemor@wpwrak congrats.. know how annoying those hard to track down bugs can be01:20
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-0512/04:10
GitHub84[milkymist] kristianpaul pushed 1 new commit to gps-sdr-testing: https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/commit/01dccc715a895e51ce784d81326086ff62c03f6005:53
GitHub84[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] full support for reading and writing, channel0 and control registers in namuru - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas05:53
cfydo someone in china?06:35
cfywhen i try to use opkg install gcc-mips.it seems that the content of the ipk is block by the gfw.....06:35
cfyxiangfu: gcc-mipsŒ<«™†.06:36
xiangfucfy, it download from downloads.qi-hardware.com06:36
cfyxiangfu: /J.ï/(06:36
xiangfucfy, you can try download: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/packages/NanoNote/Ben/latest/gcc-mips_4.5.2-1_xburst.ipk06:37
cfyxiangfu: oh,i try it again06:37
xiangfucfy, sometimes the GFW block the qi-hardware.com. :( sometimes works just fine. good luck. or find one vpn :)06:38
cfyxiangfu: can i repartion the root partion?06:38
xiangfucfy, you have the data partitions. 06:38
xiangfuit's 1.5GB 06:39
xiangfucfy, if you want repartition, you have to modify kernel code. 06:39
cfyxiangfu: i don't like the data partition,when i install some software,it's still install in the rootfs06:39
cfyxiangfu: oh...06:39
cfyxiangfu: i will try to remount the /usr/ partition06:40
xiangfucfy, I can access downloads.qi-hardware.com without vpn. 06:40
xiangfucfy, there is '--dest' option in opkg06:41
cfyxiangfu: oh,got that06:41
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1rc3/norruption/LOG: finally got one more (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/88fa76b07:06
cfyxiangfu: i retry,and i'm sure the gcc-mips is blocked by the gfw.....07:36
cfyxiangfu: maybe i need to download all the package,then copy to the nn.i have a 8GB microSD07:38
cfyxiangfu: maybe i should download all the package,then copy to the nn.i have a 8GB microSD07:38
cfyxiangfu: nice work :D, the new image is awesome !07:38
xiangfuwith a lot of people here help07:39
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-0842/07:41
Freemoroops shouldn't type with no sleep sorry08:06
AylaI'm about to disactivate the shortcut for the manual on gmenu2x09:19
AylaI don't know what's the button on nanonote, but on dingoo pressing Y opens the manual (usually README) of the app09:19
xiangfuabout app or about gmenu2x?09:20
xiangfuthere is a 'About' in gmenu2x menu.09:20
AylaI want to put that on the contextual menu instead, if there's any problem with it, please say it now :)09:20
xiangfuthere is no apps README in nanonote :(09:20
xiangfubut we have : http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications09:20
Aylayes there is, on the edit toolbox you can specify a manual09:21
xiangfuoh don't know that. thanks09:21
Aylacurrently, pressing Y on the dingoo opens the manual if there's one09:21
xiangfuhmm. I think the Y is map to 'y' in nanonote09:22
Aylaah ok09:22
Aylawell, I want to remove that shortcut, and have an entry on the contextual menu instead09:22
Aylathe goal is to have fewer keys used by GMenu2X09:22
AylaI already did the commit, I now wonder if I can push it09:23
xiangfuAyla, sorry which shortcut?  I am a little confuse.09:28
xiangfuseems the 'F2' in nanonote is for 'contextual menu'09:28
Aylaand 'Y' shows the manual if there is one09:29
AylaI want to remove that 'Y' shortcut09:29
xiangfuoh. ok. that is why when I press 'Y' there is nothing :)09:29
Aylabasically, if you take a look at this: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Gmenu2x#Key_Bindings09:29
AylaI want to remove the use of X and Y 'original' buttons09:30
xiangfuyes. 'Y: Bring up the manual/readme. '09:30
xiangfuAyla, yes. sure. why not. 09:30
Aylaas there's no rule on gmenu2x which defines which button is for accept (either A/START on dingoo, enter/s on nanonote), cancel, etc.09:30
xiangfuin fact I never press 'x' and 'y' when I use nanonote09:31
Ayladepending on the screen (settings menu, file chooser menu...) the keys are different09:31
xiangfumostly 'enter' 'tab' 'l' 's' 09:31
xiangfuAyla, thanks.09:31
Aylathanks, for what?09:31
xiangfuthanks for your work on gmenu2x, 09:32
Aylano problem :)09:33
xiangfuAyla, do you know this : https://github.com/mtorromeo/gmenu2x/commits/master09:35
xiangfuwe should find a way to merge those two repo.09:36
xiangfuwhat do you think.09:36
Aylaa big NO :)09:36
Aylait would be a great idea to merge those two09:37
Aylabut the task would be enormous09:37
Aylathe majority of work on Qi's branch of GMenu2X was to remove mtorromeo's crap09:37
Aylaindeed his program is great, but he did it wrong09:38
xiangfuoh. so basic we folk the gmenu2x. then how about you take over the control and maybe you RENAME it to what you like? what do you think :)09:39
AylaI told mth it would be faster to rewrite GMenu2X from scratch, he didn't believe me until he worked with the code :)09:39
AylaI would prefer to write a new menu09:40
Aylaone of my wannabe projects is to write 'emenu'09:41
Aylawhich would use the enlightenment libraries, hence the 'e'09:41
xiangfujust add you to 'Project owners'09:42
xiangfuif you want create a project in projects.qi-hardware.com just let me know. 09:43
xiangfusorry, I have to go. see you later.09:43
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-1212/11:11
kristianpaulAwAyla: (enlightment) excelent choice ! :)11:49
Freemor@Ayla isn't Enlightenment very pointer dependant (haven't looked at it in years)12:11
mthAwAyla: when cleaning up existing code, you have something usable all the time that gradually becomes better, while if you rewrite from scratch you have nothing usable for a long time, then something usable but lacking features and in the end something good12:49
mthit's very easy to underestimate the amount of time before you reach usability parity with the existing program12:50
mthso by all means write your own menu as a long-term replacement for gmenu2x, but we should maintain gmenu2x until then12:50
wolfspraul100% agree12:52
larscfor the nanonote kernel the existing ingenic drivers allowed us to replace one at a time while still having a more or less running system all the time12:54
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-1448/13:46
wpwraklarsc: in other words, do not cut branch before having taken residence on different branch. given our ancestry, the concept should be intuitive :)14:07
larschmpf. stupid. before wondering why the devices does not respond apply power14:18
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-1547/14:45
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-1645/15:43
Aylamth: hi15:57
Aylamth: I'm not saying that my menu should ever replace gmenu2x15:57
AylaI'm saying that I'd rather work on a new menu because gmenu2x is driving me crazy :)15:58
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-1743/16:41
whitequarkhm. can gerbv render to image?16:53
Action: wpwrak searches for an example ...16:54
whitequarkI mean, I don't see a menu item or something like that.16:54
whitequarksure I can make a screenshot, but that's not very good on 1024x600.16:54
wpwraksomething like this ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atusb-110330-overview.png16:55
wpwrakor this ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/tmp/front.png16:55
whitequarkwpwrak: yeah16:57
wpwrakthis is the script that does it: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/fab/prettygerbv16:57
wpwrakuses http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/fab/drl2gerber16:58
wpwrakthis is the version for kicad. other EDA systems need some adaptations16:58
wpwrake.g., the version for altium would be here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/fab/m1/16:59
wpwrak(M1 is done with altium ... unfortunately)16:59
whitequarkwpwrak: my one is done in Eagle & TopoR, so the output is just the strict RS48whatever gerber file set17:01
whitequarkwell, it looks easy to tweak17:01
whitequark*looks like it is17:02
wpwrakprettygerbv should be easy. the drill file conversion may be harder. there's a lot of weird stuff in excellon and i only implement what's actually used17:03
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-1841/17:39
whitequarkwpwrak: I've adjusted the file names, and it kind of works17:56
whitequarkevery view except "front" has its layers' positions hopelessly screwed up17:57
wpwrakheh, that's where the fun begins :)17:57
wpwrakyou may also want to check the holes. chances are they're not at the right place (if you drew them at all)17:58
whitequarkwpwrak: the holes were misplaced even just after CAM script my PCB manufacturer has provided17:59
whitequarkI've adjusted gerber files manually in the gerbv. I hope they don't account for the offset in their own software.17:59
wpwrak(holes bad with script from manufacturer) nice :)18:00
whitequarkor, actually I think that everything except holes was not at its place18:00
wpwrakwith the kicad process we have now, it's pretty much "make fab" and mail them the files :)18:01
whitequarkbecause when I ran the autorouter (another perversion: it works only with pcad, and a some weird format I never heard of, and an Eagle ULP exports into the latter), it gave me two copper layers in gerber, and they were on par with holes (but moved relative to everything else)18:02
whitequarkkicad... I find it rather impenetrable somehow.18:02
whitequarkEagle is quirky and open-source, but I managed to understand how to actually do something useful in it18:03
whitequark*not open-source18:03
wpwrak(kicad) it's not so bad. some things are still weak, but yuo can work around most of them.18:03
wpwrake.g., don't draw footprints in kicad - use my fped :)18:03
wpwrakyeah, the non-openness of eagle is its big problem. i know that it's extremely popular, but ...18:04
whitequarkI was impressed by gerbv, through (it's in geda suite right?), first because it actually worked (not in the way 100s of windows crappy gerber viewers work), and second was now, when I've spotted Scheme code in your script18:04
wpwrakheh ;-)18:05
whitequark(I've got severely schemed recently, to the extent of porting it to Cortex-M3's)18:05
wpwrakgerbv is not as flexible as it may seem. but i like what i was able to do with it. for more advanced things, i may have to write my own gerber renderer, though18:06
whitequarkwhat's I'm trying to do is to show my first PCB which will be actually manufactured at the fab18:07
wpwrakhow many layers ?18:07
whitequarkI was able to make one-layered boards myself, but it looks like vias are too hard18:08
wpwrakthen the prettygerbv process should suit you well. you just need to work out the quirks eagle puts.18:08
whitequarkat least, for me18:08
wpwrak(vias) just make a hole and solder wire18:08
wpwrakif you have a cnc mill, you can make very precise holes and use a matching wire that doesn't fall out. easy to solder that way.18:09
wpwrakthings get harder if you have big ground planes in addition to this.18:09
whitequark(mill) no, I don't. I only have a manual one, through with a support, but I always miss one or two holes destroying something in the process18:10
whitequarkthat is, while milling holes for 0.1" pinheads.18:10
whitequarkand really thin drill bits which are suitable for vias just break because of miscentered something18:11
whitequark(vias) I've tried that once. it does not work well under TSSOP, at least for me.18:12
wpwraka cnc mill shouldn't be all too expensive. maybe starting at usd 1500 (incuding taxes and such), you should be able find something decent18:12
whitequarkusd 1500 is currently a lot for me18:12
rjeffrieswpwrak I have a dumb question about that Panasonic EVQ77 siwith/joystick  I am not clear hwo many i/os it needs, and don't know if they are digital or analog.18:12
wpwrak(vias under tssop) ah, i wouldn't try that either. keep them out in the open18:12
whitequarkwpwrak: if I manage to get images for that board somehow, you'll understand why I can't18:13
wpwrakrjeffries: all digital. 5 i/os18:14
wpwrakif you have enough space for tssop, you have enough space for vias not under components ;-)18:14
rjeffrieswpwrak thanks. so it is like a D-Pad in a sense. yes?18:15
wpwrakrjeffries: maybe .. dunno what a d-pad is :)18:15
wpwrakit's kinda like the joysticks you got for the vic-2018:16
rjeffrieswpwrak yes you do. one of those funking littel pinting devices on many mobile phones used 18:16
whitequarkwpwrak: ok, screw that. let's say that top is enough: http://files.whitequark.org/t/front.png18:16
wpwrakoh, maybe. mine has a wheel. stolen (s) from apple(r), apple(r) would say ;-)18:17
rjeffriess/funky/ s/pointing/18:17
whitequark(space) hm. yes, now I realize that I indeed have a lot of space for that, okay.18:17
wpwrakwhitequark: i was just starting to say ... ;-))18:17
rjeffriesok thanks for the tutorial wpwrak18:18
whitequarkhm. somehow, a suspiction creeps in...18:20
whitequarkwpwrak, do you send, like, a separate layer with vias to the fab?18:20
wpwrakno, i send them a drill file. they then know what to do :)18:20
whitequark... fuck.18:21
wpwrakthese are real-life examples of files that went to fabs: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/fab/18:21
wpwrak*pcb* is for making the pcb18:21
whitequarka) I can throw out the boards they'll do; b) I don't know how to make my autorouter write the drills file.18:21
wpwrak*smt* is for populating the boards18:21
wpwrak(just look at the latest version, of course. we went through a few iterations, also because they had some change requests)18:23
wpwrak(drill file) don't you re-import the layout into eagle ? the drill file may be called "excellon"18:23
whitequarkwpwrak: hm. I've found a tutorial for my autorouter and Eagle, and it mentions nothing about re-importing. so I've just replaced top/bottom copper gerber files with the one autorouter has written18:25
whitequarkwell, I doubt that import is possible. After all, you need to know which wire belongs to which net, and gerber files does not contain this kind of information at all18:26
wpwrak,aybe that's the way to do it. then you just need to find a way to get your drill file.18:26
whitequarkah yes, I remember something about Excellon. not that I knew what it is at that moment, of course18:27
wpwrak(import) well, depends on what your autorouter provides. there are relatively "fat" interfaces that should have all the information.18:27
wpwrakbut ... it may be faster to just route the board manually :)18:28
whitequarkit took me around of five hours to study that autorouterit has a really good interface, and the end result is pretty good too (I think)18:30
wpwrakit seems that someone studied their steiner trees well :)18:31
wpwraksome things look a little odd, though. e.g., the route to the pin below "JP1". or the little arc near "C1".18:32
wpwrakals the route between R6 to R7 is unnecessarily close to the pads.18:33
wpwrakeither the router or eagle also has problems with filled areas. e.g., C3 and C2 has pads that are parts of the ground area, without thermal relief. they'll be fun to hand-solder :)18:34
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-1940/18:37
wpwrakin general, 100% autorouting is a bad idea. not only do most autorouters get things wrong, but there's also a lot of implicit information that's not properly codified. e.g., you'd keep areas sensitive to interference apart, but unless you've told your autorouter explicitly about that, it may not18:46
wpwrakor maybe it does on all the runs before the last one, for the factory :)18:46
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-2038/19:35
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-2136/20:34
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-2234/21:32
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09152011-2332/22:30
whitequarkwpwrak: (quirks) yes, it has some, and I've fixed a few. looks like not enough of them22:35
whitequarkwpwrak: (100% autorouting) I've set up several (three) keepout areas and so on, without them the result was much worse. It wasn't hard, through22:36
whitequark(filled areas) that's the gerber export. the area should have been hatched, but somehow it exports to gerber as solid22:39
wpwrakhmm, hatched became solid ? that's nasty ...23:01
whitequarkwpwrak: yeah. and google does not reveal anything on that topic, either.23:24
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09162011-0030/23:28
wpwraki wonder if kicad could do hatched. never tried that. there's a gazillion options in that dialog, though ...23:29
wpwrakof course, in practical terms, i don't think hatched makes all that much sense. what you really want are "moats" without copper around pads, and the traces connecting them to the copper zone. that way, the copper zone doesn't suck away all the heat, but you still get all the shielding benefits.23:30
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: maybe you know some uses for hatched copper fill ?23:31
whitequarkwpwrak: hm, there's such an option, I'll try it out23:38
whitequarkby the way, the drill file exported by the autorouter is displayed by gerbv, but it shows several errors about junk in place of tool definition23:39
whitequarkand, worse, it, by some reason, does not want to set offset for that layer23:39
wpwrakis the drill file in excellon or in gerber ?23:40
whitequarkah, sorry, the latter is I'm being stupid and using mms where it expects mils23:41
whitequarkthe global switch at the bottom of workspace is quite confusing in terms of UX23:42
wpwrakthe invisible hand of the us-american royalists ;-)23:42
whitequarkwell, often I prefer mils, too, because a lot of stuff is inch-based, but the autorouter only understands offsets in mm23:43
wpwrakpretty much all the modern stuff is metric. once the chinese buy digi-key, the last few imperial parts will vanish, too ;-) but yes, mils can stick at times. e.g., i wouldn't know my trace widths and clearances in mm without using "units".23:47
whitequarkwpwrak: what about DIP? SO-1.27? pinheads? SMD passive component sizes?23:48
wpwraksome evil folks even metricise traditionally imperial parts. such as 100 mil becoming 2.50 mm. and then the really smart ones adjust the drill holes so both variants still somehow fit. sometimes ;-)23:48
wpwrakpretty everything smt below SOIC is metric or has metric equivalents. alas, not all of them happy choices. e.g., 0603 and 0402 exists in both systems. 23:50
whitequarkyes, that's quite confusing23:52
wpwrakDIP ... well yes, still convenient for opto-couplers. and then you get all those 0.1" headers. or, as i said, their metric counterparts23:52
whitequarkthe pseudo-metric headers will bite you at more than 10 rows, I suppose23:52
whitequark(or lines?)23:52
wpwraki think they went a bit too far with metricising the passive smt components. they're more like type codes anyway. the precise size of the chip scarcely matters.23:53
wpwraki'd start to worry around the 4th pin :)23:54
wpwrakof course, you can bend them a little, ...23:54
whitequarkwas just going to say the same.23:54
wpwrak... and then, when you plug in the connector, bend them back a little, ... ;-)23:54
whitequark(digikey) darn. I've ordered three buck converters, three LVDS serializers and a bunch of passive components from them. and now they're asking about the country in which I'll "assemble that parts"23:55
whitequarkare all US suppliers equally idiotic/paranoid?23:55
wpwraki think that's just gov.us nonsense23:56
wpwraki doubt anyone actually reads what you write there ;-)23:56
whitequarkno, they've actually sent me a email from their Intl Sales Dept. you know, by a real human23:57
whitequarkhe has signed it as "Bobbie" (quoted)23:57
whitequark1.) Who is the buyer of these parts? 2.) You list the parts for individual use, but we are shipping to a company, please clarify. 3.) Are these parts being assembled in the states or in Russia?23:58
wpwrakwow ;-) maybe answer that you'll assemble in the principality of sealand, but you didn't find it in their menu. that'll give them something to ponder ;-)23:58
whitequarkhm, company.23:58
whitequarkI'm using a mail forwarding service (their fee for delivery to russia is $120. a hundred and twenty, that is), so I've unchecked the "ship to residental" checkbox23:59
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