#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-09-12

kristianpaulwpwrak: what serial console client are you using with your M1?02:46
kristianpaulsince gtkterm and flterms for me seems to be then only ones wich display new line right way when bios is booting02:48
wpwrakflterm (for then i need serialboot) and neocon (the rest of the time, because i know exactly what it does :)02:51
kristianpaulah flterm still !02:52
wpwraki don't know what protocol is used for serialboot. so it's flterm for these things.02:53
kristianpaulsure make perfect sense02:53
kristianpauli was asking more because i still need bios console for some debug, but i guess is jsut matter move all to rtems02:54
kristianpauland is inposible to have sane interaction with m1 bios from screen 02:55
wpwrakmore convenient to do it from the pc :)02:56
kristianpaulsure, i just thinking how to access remotelly02:56
kristianpauland from your lastest discoring about jtag to replace push buttons, well i'm quite done :-)02:57
wpwrak"discoring" ?02:57
kristianpaulsorry sorry02:58
Action: kristianpaul quickly looks what discoring means02:58
wpwraki don;t think the word exists :)02:59
wpwrak(yet :)02:59
kristianpaulwtf you use perl for mkboot? and is quite readable code :-)03:00
kristianpaulah okay, hacked03:00
kristianpaulmake sense03:00
wpwraki used perl because of the "pack" function. makes constructing binary strings quite convenient03:02
kristianpaulyeah, looks prety handy i admit03:02
kristianpauli have a excuse for using perl from now :)03:03
kristianpaulgreat ! now i can do make boot and make stanby :-D03:05
kristianpaulmay be a labsw will be usefull for secure power cut, but i can ignore that now03:06
wpwraki need to make labsw globally reproducible. should be useful to have this as a standard tool for qi-hw projects.03:09
kristianpaula small patch for stanby, http://pastebin.com/TXtnzAQL03:14
kristianpaulnow i can operate the m1 with no need to move my fingers from keyboard :)03:14
wpwrakadded. thanks !03:19
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1/jtag-boot/: added "standby" (by Cristian Paul Penaranda Rojas) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/cc2b07b03:19
wpwraksome day, i need to offer the full set of targets. e.g., also rescue03:20
wpwrakand retrieve/decode the configuration status03:21
kristianpaulI still not get fully understand the boundary scan, is like reading TPs with logic states?03:22
kristianpaulso you can confirm a exspected series of values?03:23
wolfspra1lyes this boundary scan sounds interesting - I also don't fully understand what it does03:26
wolfspra1lbut is it some test we can run on each m1 board to better test the board?03:26
kristianpaulhum !! also icap support for multi bit stream boot from jtag commands03:27
wpwraka boundary scan is basically access to all the i/o pins. but it seems you have to control them all at once. so you can't just pick one and change it (apparently) while the rest of the system keeps running03:29
wolfspra1lok but what is being tested?03:30
kristianpaulah just i/o..03:30
wpwrakwolfspra1l: seems that boundary scan doesn't support pull-ups (or pull-downs, not sure if the fpga has both)03:30
kristianpaulall at once sounds "dangerous"03:30
wpwrakkristianpaul: jtag is often used for other things as well. that's when things get murky :)03:30
kristianpaulfor the porpuse of the test i mean03:30
wpwrakwolfspra1l: basically the communication between the chip and its surroundings03:31
wpwrakof course, you could load a purpose-built bitstream that does whatever you want. loading a bitstream via jtag is one of those extensions that go beyond the traditional boundary scan03:31
kristianpaulbut thats mean you need still need to feed surrounding signal, wich of course make sense03:32
wolfspra1lour current test goes through all peripherals03:32
wolfspra1land specifically tries to send data through every wire and verify that it arrived03:32
wolfspra1lwhat does the bounday scan add?03:32
wpwrakso the traditional boundary scan may lack flexibility. but we could certainly make use something similar for board testing03:32
wolfspra1lsome pins of the fpga are unconnected - what can be tested there?03:32
wolfspra1lthe only thing we don't test now is the expansion header03:33
wpwrakwolfspra1l: you could test for shorts and such that wouldn't normally show up. e.g., because one line overrides the other03:33
wolfspra1lsounds like very few additional cases could be caught03:34
wolfspra1lif there is a short, whatever test we have now will also fail03:34
wpwraknot all invalid conditions will yield invalid results all of the time :)03:34
wpwrakyou may also have pins that you can short only for a certain amount of time, before this causes damage03:34
wpwrakso one test would be to pull all the pins high (except for those where this would upset peripherals). then walk though them, drive one at a time low, then read back the rest. see if any of the others has gone from high to low. (again, except cases where peripherals affect this)03:36
wpwrakrepeat for pull-low and drive high, if possible03:36
wolfspra1ltesting all peripherals and all i/o whether it works looks a little more targeted to me :-)03:37
wolfspra1lyes I can see how some rare cases can be caught like that, but those cases are not very clear to me now, neither their likelihood, nor whether the existing tests would already catch them03:37
GitHub198[softgpsreceiver] kristianpaul pushed 1 new commit to gps-sdr: https://github.com/kristianpaul/softgpsreceiver/commit/affd896b0d7b369d3fef9406f7994aa350e9450903:37
GitHub198[softgpsreceiver/gps-sdr] yafss new api - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas03:37
wpwrakif you do it right, you can even auto-identify what external components are on a chip, without telling your test system about your circuit ;-)03:38
wpwraksee also m8cutils from http://m8cutils.sourceforge.net/ , directory bscan/ :)03:40
kristianpaulso a pcb layout should be tought very well if you want to take fully advantage of this bscan it seems03:40
kristianpaulor no?03:40
wpwrakthat things was more a proof of concept than anything else. so it's kinda messy to use.03:41
wolfspra1lkristianpaul: what do you mean with "take full advantage"03:42
wolfspra1lI still don't get it03:42
wolfspra1lsome test is cool because it's cool :-) like a roller coaster ride?03:42
wpwrakbscan/README and bscan/example/README would be the thing to look at. i would expect that similar but more advanced tools exist elsewhere03:42
wolfspra1lif you have to design a pcb to "take full advantage" of a test, that sounds scary :-)03:43
wolfspra1lwe are testing all peripherals03:43
wpwrakyou don;t really need to design the PCB for it03:43
wolfspra1lthe tests are thought out in such a way to catch every conceivable error03:43
kristianpaulwell i guess that for some test you need to inject a signal some how03:43
wolfspra1llike the dram tests write and read all sorts of patterns to rule out problems with the wires etc.03:43
wolfspra1lI would first like to understand which additional (!) error case can be caught with a 'boundary scan'03:44
wolfspra1lnot needed now, just saying03:44
wolfspra1lsome tests we could add are temperature cycles, but most likely only for design verification, not for each board03:44
wolfspra1lthe magic boundary scan can most likely not replace those tests :-)03:45
kristianpaulwpwrak: not going depth this bscan sounds to me for focused on PCB and verify traces etc, thats was i wondering how i can really try to test as much as i can with it ;)03:45
wpwrakthings like shorts or other abnormal current paths. e.g., those weird suspected ESD damages (the NOR oscillation) ought to show up on such a test03:45
wolfspra1lkristianpaul: we are verifying traces03:45
wolfspra1lthat's why we go through _all_ peripherals, and put a load on each that will demonstrably verify each trace03:45
wpwrakyou can of course do a boundary scan without using anything that's labeled boundary scan03:46
wpwrakbut a purely functional test that doesn't probe for effects that affect the principal function may not catch all the cases03:47
kristianpaulhe, i want sat that for chipscope ;)03:47
wpwraka boundary scan basically takes everything one level lower. you don' think about chip functions but about pins instead03:48
kristianpauls/sat/said that03:48
wpwraka device may appear to function on the outside but it's still defective03:49
wolfspra1lstill sounds theoretical03:50
wolfspra1lwe are testing every peripheral, every i/o03:50
wpwrake.g., parasitic effects can drive signals. if you're (un)lucky, they just produce the level your functional test expects03:50
wolfspra1lthe purpose is to make sure that each peripheral/device works as expected03:50
GitHub13[softgpsreceiver] kristianpaul pushed 4 new commits to gps-sdr: https://github.com/kristianpaul/softgpsreceiver/compare/affd896...4404f0903:51
GitHub13[softgpsreceiver/gps-sdr] yafss new api - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas03:51
Last message repeated 1 time(s).03:51
GitHub13[softgpsreceiver/gps-sdr] namuru debug commands now on rtems shell - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas03:51
wolfspra1lonce that is the case by definition it's not 'defective' :-)03:51
wpwrakdo you also test current consumption in relation to the system state ?03:51
wolfspra1ladditional tests are great, but they need to be targeted and catch something the other tests don't catch03:51
wolfspra1loh sure, Adam is very picky about current consumption as you can imagine03:51
wpwrakso for each configuration state, you have a precise system-wide current consumption ?03:52
kristianpauleach could be a loooong list i think :)03:53
wpwrake.g., base state = xxx.xxx mA. turn MIDI on = xxx.xxx mA. turn MIDI off but audio codec's oscillator on = xxx.xxx mA. send a 0 on NOR D0 = xxx.xxx mA. send a 1 instead = xxx.xxx mA ? etc.03:53
wpwrakvery very very long :)03:53
kristianpaulof course computers are fast those days :)03:54
wpwrakbut you need to do such things to find shorts. e.g., if two pins are, by accident, driving the same signal with conflicting values, one may always "win". so if the one is the pin you actually expect to drive this signal, you don't see anything abnormal.03:55
wpwrakexcept that the system will consume more current03:56
wpwrakand maybe this will reduce the system's lifespan. or have other effects, e.g., on a system condition the functional test didn't include. (i highly doubt the functional tests test every corner case)03:57
wpwraki'm sure DocScrutinizer has a nice collection of horror stories for what can happen if you short a chip's output to something else :)03:59
rohi also think that measuring current is a good 'catchall' test03:59
kristianpaulsure we agree, but not get mad with a not end number of combinations04:02
wpwrakcurrent measurement can also replace a lot of other tests. e.g., if you have a LED, a current test can tell you if it's open, shorted, or working :)04:02
wpwrakkristianpaul: you basically want to have a model of the device. then generate the test patterns from this.04:03
kristianpaulyou can do current test by bscan?04:03
kristianpauli mean current measurement04:03
wpwrakyou need a measurement instrument for this04:03
wpwrakthe boundary scan itself doesn't contain any such things04:03
kristianpaulbut bscan can help you to open/close some gates and path current to the righ intruments i guess04:04
DocScrutinizermy words since 200804:04
wpwrakbut you can set up your system to a quiescent state where, say, the LED is off, measure system current, then turn on the LED and measure again. if the current doesn't change, something is broken.04:04
wpwrakif it goes up by, say, 10 mA (exact value depends on design), the LED is lit. if it's considerably more, something is shorted.04:05
wpwrakkristianpaul: exactly04:05
DocScrutinizeryou can't even "test each peripheral for correct function" as supposed above. There are LOTS of functions that are hard to impossible to test. Think overcurrent signals, IRQs that usually don't fire, RTS/CTS etc pp04:06
wpwrakyup. lots of things that are very hard to trigger :)04:06
wpwrakit's more like driving a car around the block and then declaring it to be in good working order :)04:07
wpwrakit's more a test of the absence of obvious fatal flaws04:07
rohwell.. i am not saying that all boards need to be in a 10mA window to be 'good' ... just that something which draws >150mA more than everything else working might be 'fishy'04:08
DocScrutinizeryou usually do A|B tests with DUT and reference, and probe and compare as many parameters as possible04:08
DocScrutinizeralso drive VDD to and beyond the limits04:08
DocScrutinizeretc pp04:09
wpwrakof course, it's nice as a sanity check. prevent "missed the burning forest but all the trees looked good" kind of mishaps :)04:09
wpwrakroh: an absolute 10 mA window is unrealistic, already due to component tolerances. but a relative 10 mA window, e.g., board X with LED off vs. board X with LED on, that is quite realistic04:10
wpwrakand of course, of you have a board Y that's 10% higher in general than board X, you may have a problem there :)04:11
DocScrutinizerthen you design a special test program that intentionally triggers as many of those fringe cases that usually never happen, like FIFO overflows and whatnot04:11
DocScrutinizersetting those 10% margins is pretty simple, after 10 DUT's runs you have a god statistic base what'S ok and what's fishy04:12
wpwrakwolfspra1l: these things don't have to be a nightmare to do. if you automate them properly, they're not any worse than extensive functional tests04:13
DocScrutinizermy words since 200704:13
kristianpaulwasnt 2008?04:13
DocScrutinizerbut OM never been interested in *decent* QA tests in fab :-/04:14
wpwrakmy code since 2006 ;-) (well, somewhat)04:14
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: don't test for bugs you're not prepared to handle (-:C04:14
kristianpauli dont think we looks for bugs, i wonder who find who first ;)04:17
wpwrakthe somewhat difficult business relationship between OM and the factory may also have played into this to some extent04:17
wpwraknot that i would have had high hopes for actually getting such things right, but this situation may have prevented them from even being considered04:18
wpwrakafter all, any board that fails is a yield problem. now, who gets the blame ? and whoever gets blamed is still convinced it's the other side's fault, so they'll hold a grudge. and so on.04:20
wpwraknot the ideal climate for being good at detecting defects :)04:20
wpwrakthe less you find, the fewer incident on the home front :)04:21
wpwrakthe customers are far away. and maybe they don't notice either :)04:21
rohpfff.. blame problems04:22
wpwrakof course, that's generally a problem. good QA will invariably run into situations where any bad news they may have will be extremely unwelcome04:22
rohi have heard from people working inside a big german industrial hw manuf, which do proper testing how that goes04:23
rohthese guys even do real clima-chamber tests etc04:23
rohat one time we got switches from their lab with temperature sensor wires still hanging from some holes, taped to the top with gaffa04:23
wpwrakroh: but i bet that wasn't a "the three stooged make a smartphone" kind of setting04:24
rohnaah. they build stuff.. as well as switches spec-ed to be used in railway and underground tunnels etc.04:25
rohthey even got ip67 proof switches.. nice stuff... tricky connectors ;)04:25
wpwrakrubber seals ?04:26
rohfrom regular vendors we get sometimes stuff with loose smt caps inside... *sigh* .. how many times we soldered such stuff on before using equipment on a ccc event ;)04:26
wpwrakthe tragedy of the lowest bidder :)04:27
rohwpwrak: not only.. pressure-cast aluminium cases with seals and plugs with seals etc. but their ip67 line is afaik still 100mbit.. no gbit connectors avail in pressure proof or so04:27
wpwrakjust make little sealed enclosure around it ? like a barrel, rubber seal at the front, a thread on the outside and a nut to hold it all down ?04:29
rohheh.. i bet that will never be ip6x ;04:29
wpwrakdust and water. doesn't sound *that* difficult04:30
rohip67 is 1meter deep immersion04:31
wpwrakyes. rubber seal :)04:31
rohpressure is your issue. all connectors need to go through fittings. just a 'clamp style seal' doesnt work04:32
wpwraki would screw it in place. or maybe have a bayonet or such04:33
wpwrakof course, that would be a special-purpose item, even if relatively simple. so it won't be cheap04:33
wpwrakbasically the way how you'd connect ethernet in docked space stations - you just leave the door open and run the wire across. maintaining the docked and sealed state is a problem someone else has already solved for you :)04:35
kristianpaulany other way of automate ftp transaction besides using expect ?04:43
rohhm. ncftp?04:46
wolfspra1lkristianpaul: curl04:47
kristianpaulnice curl support telnet as well 05:00
DocScrutinizerD-Link those suckers! Thanks to "Error! End time needs to be later than start time" for daily periods I can't define a 1 minute downtime for DSL at 6:30 in the morning :-(07:08
rohDocScrutinizer: get a real modem07:56
rohcan recommend these 4E adsl2+ ones from pollin (congster type)07:56
rohno it cannot do anything besides bridging, but it does that very well :)07:57
rohand they are so cheap you can get a pack an have some spares for the next shitty-weather-event07:59
wolfspra1l4 EUR, and 3 EUR if you buy three08:03
wolfspra1lin China you probably buy the entire box for 1 USD08:04
wolfspra1lmaybe 1.50 :-)08:04
rohafaik they are some oem variant for congster (german telecom cheap prices brand).. dunno why. maybe because they have no switchmode-psu08:08
rohits a broadcom cpu, minimal flash and ram (thats why openwrt isnt possible). .. bcm63xx series cpu. quite fast08:08
wolfspra1lnaah what? you think it's not sourced in China and sells here for 1.50 USD?08:09
wolfspra1lthose kind of prices are pretty much only possible if you have companies that can operate on super thin margins, and have high volume, i.e. serve the world08:10
rohwolfspra1l: as far as i understand it that price is 'written off hw' .. only sold because its better than scrapping08:11
rohusually modems of that spec still are 10-20Euro08:12
rohmy best guess still is the psu.. its a ac-ac heavy old transformer type. surely not latest EU-power-saving-regulation compliant08:13
wolfspra1l"written off" - hmm. dunno.08:13
wolfspra1lI'm not surprised about the price.08:13
rohpollin is known as 'resterampe' 'grabbelkiste'08:13
wolfspra1lif it's new, it's from China and made for the world, sells as 100 different brands here and there08:13
wolfspra1lif it's a one-off thing, ok, that's different08:14
rohi would be surprised if you can buy the bom even in big numbers for the used chips for these 4E08:14
wolfspra1lwhy not08:14
rohreally fresh soc. its faster than the nanonote afaik08:15
wolfspra1lwe don't know the story behind this product, so it's just speculation08:16
wolfspra1lbut in high volume chip prices come down, and become more a factor of die size08:16
rohah.. no.. sorry.. misplaced it.. its slower.. 250mhz08:17
wolfspra1lthe chinese manufacturer probably can pick from a number of silicon vendors to make a 'dsl modem box'08:18
wolfspra1lso if broadcom wants to get a little volume into their system, they need to make a price based on die size + x%08:18
wolfspra1lif their die size is uncompetitive, that's their problem. that's why you typically do another tape-out once you have achieved a 20-30% die size reduction08:19
wolfspra1lthen you will make back the tape-out costs over time (depends on volume of course)08:19
wolfspra1lthis is all assuming it's a new price, not some one-off08:19
rohi think in that market its not so much choice anymore..08:19
wolfspra1ldon't say that :-)08:20
wolfspra1lyou don't think some Chinese foundry can clone Broadcom chips?08:20
rohnot so many soc i know which can handle the big telecoms here in europe. (its the tcom who makes the spec which the modem then is made to fulfill)08:20
wolfspra1lif the soc is produced at 90nm or higher, it can definitely be cloned08:21
wolfspra1lthat brings prices down quickly :-)08:21
rohi think they can clone it. but the german telecom wouldnt buy it. they can get brcm to do their bidding as dictated08:21
wolfspra1lin your dreams08:21
wolfspra1lthe reason the price comes down is because Broadcom (in this scenario) understands that it makes no sense to fight mother nature08:22
wolfspra1lso yes, Broadcom can charge die size + 20%08:22
wolfspra1lbecause it's 'original'08:22
wolfspra1lwhereas the no-name foundry would charge die size + 5%08:22
wolfspra1lthey rather take those 20% than be 'right' but out of business08:23
wolfspra1lif it's indeed a new price, would be interesting to look at the chips08:24
wolfspra1lat 4 EUR, it's getting tight08:24
wolfspra1lthat's minus VAT etc.08:24
rohits unused, original packaged08:24
wolfspra1lbut I've seen similar amazing things here, like the silicone keyboards we include with m1 that we source for 2.50 USD or so08:24
wolfspra1l2.50 USD!08:24
wolfspra1lI took one apart08:25
wolfspra1lso many parts, so many pieces08:25
wolfspra1lusb connector08:25
rohthe recommended price was 99E08:25
wolfspra1lthree plastic layers to form connecting pad08:25
wolfspra1la chip on the pcb, some passive parts08:25
wolfspra1la led08:25
wolfspra1lplastic case, even a 1-page manual08:25
wolfspra1land it retails for 2.50 USD08:25
wolfspra1leverybody in the supply chain operates on a few cents08:26
wolfspra1lit does say 'out of stock', so our speculation may be pointless08:27
DocScrutinizerroh: I need a router, not a modem08:34
roheh. i see08:34
DocScrutinizerDIR-615 here. Is this POS openWRT capable?08:34
rohcheapest i know.. 24euro thingie from km-electronic. some tp-link08:35
roh841 or 741 or so.. would need to check again08:36
rohuh.. the dlink.. which revision do you have?08:36
DocScrutinizerH/W Ver.: D308:37
rohhm. small flash but the page says possible. no usb also08:40
DocScrutinizerD3E even08:40
DocScrutinizeryeah, no USB obviously :-D08:40
rohhm.. D1 and 4 seem supported.. but i dont see D3.. weird08:41
wolfspra1lroh: do you know much about developments in routers?08:52
wolfspra1lmore or less Linux?08:52
wolfspra1lintegrated dsl or cable modem? integrated wifi?08:52
wolfspra1lis it becoming harder or easier to install something like openwrt?08:52
wolfspra1lI don't follow routers closely, unfortunately. too little time...08:53
rohwolfspra1l: i prefer to keep those seperated09:15
wolfspra1lso it's just a black-box to you?09:15
rohthere isnt really any vendor free complete atm implementation atm09:15
wolfspra1loh I see. you keep the dsl modem separate.09:15
rohyes.. the wan phy. because its cheap and can be seen as a transparent bridge usually.09:16
rohe.g. we have cable and nat-ed dsl here.. i can just move the 'wan' ethernet cable from one to the other to switch from cable to vdsl09:16
rohstuff breaks and it makes replacements easier/more practical for us09:18
rohwolfspra1l: the most important development from my pov is 'shorter lifespan' as well product-cycle wise as well as cheaper entry hw09:20
rohi think larsc or nbd know details there much better than i am09:20
rohwhat i would wish for is a more decent amount of ram and flash and better performance.. then i would do more on these small machines09:21
rohalso to seperate from the market a bit. one cannot compete with 24E devices if its about supporting sw development09:22
rohpeople paid insane amount of money for the 'good' old routers with minipci slots and 32mb ram for some time09:23
rohi can be wrong but afail there is no 'mainline supported' platform atm..  atleast not intended by the vendor09:24
rohwolfspra1l: what are you thinking about?09:25
wolfspra1lnah, just following09:25
wolfspra1lI think prices will continue to fal09:25
wolfspra1lmore integration, higher volume, etc.09:26
wolfspra1lbut I don't know, so I'm curious. And you gave me some good answers already - thanks!09:26
DocScrutinizerin the old days that's been called MAU iirc11:00
DocScrutinizermedia attachment unit11:00
DocScrutinizerjust nowadays it's not yellow cable but TV cable, or DSL11:01
DocScrutinizerwolfspra1l: keep an eye on AVM11:03
DocScrutinizerif there's such a thing like a "standard" here then it's FritzBox11:04
wpwrak(EUR 4 bridge) you could probably make some money by trowing away bridge and power supply and just selling the ethernet cables individually ;-)11:07
DocScrutinizeryou can also make money here by copying EAN barcodes and stick them to arbitrary plastc bottles, then insert to return machines and get a coupon about 15ct per bottle11:13
DocScrutinizerless efort than making money on selling crappy ethernet patchcables11:14
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/web/: added visual indication of test loop (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/508508011:28
wpwraksounds like a plan :)11:28
wpwrakhmm, EAN ... that was the European Academic Network. some nightmare in X.400. Europe's proud stand against the wild hordes of the Internet :)11:30
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: removed copper from mounting holes (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/5ef4f4a23:18
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: corrected size of 2512 footprints (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a48f34a23:18
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1rc3/norruption/LOG: still trying to reproduce the NOR corruption ... (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/50d66bf23:18
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fped/gnuplot.c (gnuplot_arc): implemented drawing of arcs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/6dfbb5123:55
--- Tue Sep 13 201100:00

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