#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-09-05

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/Makefile: increased engraving depth from 0.2 mm to 0.5 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/fd6b95d01:26
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/font.fpd: increased banana jack hole from 6 mm to 8 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/1d4b89e01:26
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: new gnuplot tag #%id= with generator-assigned identifier (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a42a18f08:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/shape.c: removed global "path" variable (where did that madness come from ?) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a67d0b408:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/LOG: added front plate milling results (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/e67eab108:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: mech/doit: store cameo job in temporary file, for easier debugging (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/96cd3dd08:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: mech/front.fpd: increased banana jack hole diameter from 8.0 mm to 8.1 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/d0309ad08:54
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09052011-0212/10:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/path.c (path_replace): free the old ID (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/828763b11:12
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: make tool_comp_paths output paths in the order processed (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/639b0fa11:12
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/Makefile: fixed error handling of pipes; target "pos" for positioning (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/3dc74fc11:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: think we can talk jon out of HTML5 ? :)13:25
wpwrakwolfspraul: it eerily reminds me of sean's plan to bring Processing to the FreeRunner ...13:26
wolfspraulwpwrak: no I think that's just a misunderstanding, so it's good we talk about13:26
wpwrakheh, here he is :)13:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah, tell me then13:26
Jay7we need service that will process html5 on Qi HW cloud and return image back to NN user :)13:27
wolfspraulnobody thinks the NanoNote will become an iphone or android killing browsing machine13:27
Jay7via wpan, sure :)13:27
wpwrakJay7: and let's not forget the Qi++ button :-)13:27
wolfspraulwell, except some people that don't see the irony of their constant comparisons to great Android phones :-)13:27
wolfspraulno wait13:27
wolfspraulit's a different horizon13:27
wolfspraulJon thinks long-term13:27
Jay7in long-term we need Ya NN13:27
wolfspraulhe sees html5+css+js as the 'free app store'13:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think he wants to lower the bar for developers13:28
Jay7with 1Gb of RAM and 1GHz CPU :)13:28
Action: Jay7 hides13:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: and maybe snatch up some who currently do things on iPhone, Android, etc.13:28
larscwhats really missing to become a iphone killer is vendor lockin.13:28
wolfspraulso one is short-term and I 100% agree with Freemor's post on the list13:28
Jay7larsc: gsm part? :)13:28
wpwraklarsc: next item for sourcing research: shackles :)13:29
wolfsprauland one is long-term thinking, and there really is no alternative to html5 I think13:29
wolfspraulit's just the best (if it works :-))13:29
larscJay7: the whole thing. and non-replacable batteries13:29
Jay7gsm and wifi - that is needed for end users... 13:29
wpwrakwolfspraul: do you think "native" applications will simply die in the long run ?13:29
Jay7well, s/gsm/3G/13:29
wolfspraulit's a big world13:29
wolfspraulJon calls it the 'haircut kids'13:30
wolfspraulhow do we get the haircut kids to a copyleft device, any copyleft device, ever13:30
Jay7but we may just play on tablet/readers market13:30
wolfspraulwith an html5/css/js solution13:30
Jay7w/o phone/wifi 13:30
Jay7with wpan13:30
wolfspraulthe haircut kids won't buy the nanonote today or tomorrow13:30
wolfsprauland the 'real' hackers will always prefer something natively written in C, right?13:30
wolfspraul(I would :-))13:30
Jay7wolfspraul: sure :)13:30
wolfspraulbut it's a big world, and we cannot hide in hacker happiness, we have to be open minded to the real world as well13:31
wpwrakscary ... UPS just cpmplained about a brown-out. seems that everything is still up, though. well, except my fluke rebooted. it's always the quickest.13:31
Jay7check this13:31
wolfspraulthat's where html5/css/js comes in, whenever that is and on whatever device13:31
Jay7platform for quick development rich Qt-based apps to run via network13:32
wolfspraulQt is strong and will remain13:32
wolfspraulbut I personally wouldn't touch it either13:32
Jay7I've tested it via gprs channel and it works fine13:32
wolfspraulI honestly think ncurses will see a second (third, fourth, whatever) life13:32
wpwrakbut will HTML%+etc. be enough for the "haircut kids" ? or will they basically expect the full feature set of an igadget ?13:32
wolfspraulI think we will see scripted gui apps13:32
wolfsprauland so on13:32
wolfspraulbut what about html5?13:33
wolfspraulif there is any chance for a 'free app store', ever, then it's going to be via html5 (including offline), css/js13:33
Jay7we have no possibility to run html5+js+blablabla on NN13:33
Jay732Mb is not enough13:33
wpwraki'm not against html5, btw. i see the issue more with putting resources into making what it currently a very heavy environment somehow work on weak hardware13:33
wpwrakbecause it may simply not provide the user experience that's expected, even if it's fast enough. e.g., because additional services that are expected to be part of the package are missing13:34
mthyou can use zram swap to get more memory, but at the cost of CPU cycles13:34
wpwrakand by the time you add those extra services, your base platform may have become powerful enough to also run the regular implementation of all this stuff13:35
Jay7better to forget about web2.0 UI apps on Ben NN13:35
wpwrakso your version optimized for weak hardware would basically be useless13:35
Jay7invest time and money into Ya :)13:35
wpwrakJay7: ya probably still wouldn't cut it. but yes, that's what i'd rather do, too :)13:36
Jay7wpwrak: if we want to run web2.0 apps on Ya we should adapt HW13:36
Jay7thats only easy way13:37
Jay7and it's cheaper imho13:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: (free app store) dunno. we already have "free app stores". opkg ... and poof, there it is. it all works already. maybe needs a friendlier frontend, but the infrastructure has been around for a good while and works quite well.13:37
Jay7(but is a bit wrong from my point)13:37
wolfspraulJon (and I) don't doubt at all that opkg/rpm/deb etc. will go away or be replaced13:39
wolfspraulbut the dns is also not to forget, the 'free web'13:39
wolfsprauland with html5 you basically just need to visit a site, then the app will be 'installed'13:39
wolfsprauloops typoe13:39
wolfspraulI meant "don't doubt at all that opkg/rpm/deb/etc. will stay"13:39
wolfspraultoo many negations13:39
wolfspraulso of course they stay13:39
wolfsprauland grow13:39
wolfspraulbut that's one particular way of doing things13:40
wolfspraulsigned sources, community review, etc. etc.13:40
wolfspraulall fine13:40
wolfspraulbut you think every little hotel chain will get their 'app' into Debian13:40
wolfspraulthey wouldn't even be welcome, at all13:40
wpwraknaw, they don't have to. you don't need to go via the distribution.13:42
wpwrakand are you saying that, if the nanonote supports html5+etc., you expect to be able to run "web apps" that aren't written specifically for the nanonote ?13:42
wolfspraulI already explained short-term and long-term13:43
wolfspraulthis is more Jon thinking big13:43
wolfspraul5 years13:43
wolfspraulmany devices13:43
wolfspraul10 years13:43
wolfspraulnowadays he runs about talking about "2030"13:43
wolfspraulthat's 19 years from now13:43
wolfspraulthat different horizon explains most of the misunderstanding13:43
wpwrakhmm, but why does he care about nanonote+html5 now ?13:44
wpwrakif it's a consideration of what we should plan to start doing in a decade, fine. html5, css, js, probably won't be around then anymore, but something similar will be.13:47
wolfsprauloh, html5 for sure will be around in 10 years13:48
wolfspraulisn't it already 5 or more in the making? :-)13:48
wolfspraulthose things become very big and inert13:48
wolfspraulbut sure, if Apple goes all the way to the moon, maybe no more open web at all :-)13:49
wolfspraulSafari is already named after the 'jungle'13:49
wolfspraulthey plant the seeds early13:49
wolfspraulbut no I think html5/css/js will stay and will be the free app store13:49
wolfspraulor rather, one part of it13:49
wolfspraulnext to the opkg/rpm/deb/etc. system layers13:50
wpwraki wouldn't be surprised of js would yield to another language. they come and go at about decade intervals. C++, java, maybe now JS, ...13:50
wpwrakdunno about CSS. also, even if the future HTML5 will still be called "HTML5", it will have grown extensions or have gotten loaded with add-ons, so it'll be different from the thing today. e.g., consider that Flash has become pretty much the lingua franca for quite a lot of web developers13:52
wolfspraulI think the inertia of html and anything attached to it is huge and growing13:52
wolfspraulunless the open web dies complete and goes the way of gopher, whatever13:52
wolfspraulwhich I doubt13:52
wpwraki don't think the web as such will die. but the importance of things will shift. see many companies pushing apps to access their content instead of or in addition to the regular web13:53
wolfspraulwpwrak: ok did we clarify some of Jon's html5 excitement now?14:05
wolfspraulI do share his excitement, but so far the negative reactions all seem like misunderstandings to me14:05
wolfspraulin no way do I believe that html5/css/js will become an important way to get apps to the Ben NanoNote14:05
wolfspraulbut it may still be a good place for some tinkering, some people to start going in that direction, why not. the resource constraints are a plus in my book.14:06
wolfsprauland actually this has already been happening for a while, that's why we have 5+ browsers on the Ben :-)14:06
ps2chiperWho manufactured the nanonote?14:06
wolfspraulme and friends14:07
ps2chiperwhat factory?14:07
wolfspraulactually not very precise, you could also say GGV and Sunty14:07
wolfspraulps2chiper: a small factory in shenzhen14:07
ps2chiperthey have plenty of those14:08
wolfspraulbut it's still hard work and you need solid workers etc.14:10
ps2chiperDid you get your hands dirty?14:10
wolfspraulthe workers increasingly discover their rights, which is good14:11
wolfspraul'dirty' may be an overestatement14:11
wolfspraulwhen you find me in the copper mine to mine the copper for an upcoming device, I'll be there14:11
ps2chiperthat would be chile14:11
wolfspraulI actually had some plans to work for a mine in Australia at some point14:12
wolfspraulhe :-)14:12
wolfspraulI wanted to see where/how that stuff comes from14:12
wolfspraulbut well, I didn't put my money where my mouth is on that one yet14:12
wolfspraulin terms of Sunty, I did a little work14:12
wolfspraul1-2 weeks combined maybe14:12
wolfspraulsome flashing, testing14:12
ps2chiperhow come you dont open your own industrial design company?14:12
wolfspraulI flashed all 2k nanos :-)14:12
ps2chiperi did that on about 5k routers14:13
wolfspraulbut I cheated, somewhere after a few hundred in the second run the girls who saw me unable to optimize the process further gave me a break and finished in 1/10th of the time I would have taken for the rest14:13
wolfspraulthe process optimization they are able to do is amazing14:13
wolfspraulhats off14:14
ps2chiperi see, i can teach you the factory process next time you come to shenzhen14:14
ps2chipermy background is manufacturing14:14
wolfspraulthe key is to quickly see the optimization possibility, since especially on assembly/testing, the process changes often14:14
wolfsprauland even though I think I am not stupid, the girls there could easily give me a run for my money14:14
wolfspraulI just don't see it!14:14
ps2chiperyou must be a slow poke14:15
ps2chiperi give the chinese a run for there money with my process14:15
wolfspraulI doubt it but you are welcome to help on the next run. for free of course, like we all work for free :-)14:15
wolfspraulor I'm slow, sure. I think they are good though, so it was a good work on the NanoNote.14:16
ps2chiperi worked in the chinese factory before. back in the japanese factory we had to stand on our feet for 12 hours a day14:16
ps2chiperyou can pay me the chinese salary14:16
wolfspraulfair enough14:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: (html5 clarification) okay, thanks ! the sense of urgency that spoke from jon's mail was indeed misleading. i have no problem with considering this as a technology to keep an eye on for the next years :)14:17
ps2chiperyou got to build a muscle memory.14:17
ps2chiperafter enough time the process becomes natural and you can work without thinking14:18
wolfspraulyes but you need to keep an eye on how to optimize the process14:18
ps2chiperthe goal is to keep it going for months14:18
wolfsprauland with many steps and workers that may be not so easy14:18
wolfspraulok I am only doing 1k runs14:19
ps2chiperi dont think your quantities are large enough14:19
wolfspraul1k is just a blip on the radar14:19
ps2chiperyeah, back at the headlight factory, we would make average 900 lamps in 12 hours on a 5 man line14:19
wolfspraulI don't know much about the process and difficulties of large runs, hundreds of k over months14:19
wolfspraulor even millions14:20
ps2chiperwell chinese dont think14:20
ps2chiperthey do14:20
ps2chiperso even if their process is flawed, they dont care14:20
wolfspraulyeah well, it's difficult14:20
wolfspraulcorrect they don't care14:20
wolfspraulthat's their strength14:20
wolfspraulno useless discussions :-)14:20
ps2chiperthats one advantage. bad for innovation 14:21
wolfspraulsure of course14:21
wolfspraulbut culturally you have to play to your strengths14:21
wolfspraulI think we all do that, or should do taht14:21
ps2chipercan you give me some commercially viable products?14:22
wolfspraulhere's food for thought I heard once and liked: chinese are too creative to be productive14:22
ps2chiperwell i can explain that14:22
wolfspraulcommercially viable?14:23
ps2chiperthey are good at incremental fixes14:23
wolfsprauldon't understand14:23
ps2chiperone topic at a time14:23
wolfspraulcommercially viable is something that has a lot of demand at a high price point :-)14:23
wolfspraulno I have no silver bullet14:23
ps2chiperback to chinese14:23
ps2chiperthats why they never had a industrial revolution.14:24
wolfspraulif you like I sell you a Milkymist One for 3500 RMB, that makes it a bit more commercially viable for me ;-)14:24
ps2chiperthey were so good at quick fixes they never needed to rethink the way they do things14:24
wolfspraultoo creative to be productive14:24
wolfspraulalways invent things on the spot, but never get to the bottom of the problem14:24
wolfspraulbut they are too damned good at what they do to care :-) I don't think China or Chinese businesses need an economics lesson14:25
ps2chiperso our factory does stb's we want to have a xbmc with dvb tuner support14:25
wolfsprauldefinitely not from a crazy money loosing 'entrepreneur' like me14:25
ps2chiperits hard to find good programmers in shenzhne14:27
wolfspraulwho would be surprised14:27
wolfspraulit's hard to find a good assembly factory in San Francisco14:27
ps2chiperhave you been drinking tonight, are you always this joyous?14:27
wolfspraulno beer yet!14:27
wolfsprauldon't look for programmers there, that simple14:28
ps2chiperwell if you come up with some good ideas for products, ill help you out.14:28
ps2chipereasier said then done14:28
wolfspraulthe few good ones will work for big foreign brands and make real money, and that's what they should do14:29
wolfsprauland then the good foreign companies will send them to the US for a master degree, mba, etc.14:29
ps2chiperironically the chinese programmers are starting to make as much as their foreign counterparts14:29
wolfspraulwhy is that ironic?14:29
ps2chiperbecause the foreign companies come to china to pay people less money14:30
wolfspraulthat's a minority now14:30
wolfspraulthose guys have left for Vietnam, Cambodia, Phillipines, etc.14:30
ps2chiperand now with the economic crisis, its leveled out for programmers 14:30
Jay7hire russian programmers 14:30
Jay7they are the best of ;)14:30
Jay7and cheap enough :)14:31
ps2chiperi got a friend from latvia14:31
wolfspraulseriously, that's a good idea14:31
wolfspraulthere you go, close :-)14:31
ps2chiperhe is a phd student and only makes 2200 usd a month14:31
ps2chiperhe has been helping me port the FON 2.0n build to my router14:31
Action: Jay7 have about 600-1000 usd/m14:31
ps2chiperthe shitty part is i cant afford 2500 to hire him full time for my self14:31
wolfspraulps2chiper: hire Jay7 14:32
ps2chiperwould he like to come work in shenzhen14:32
ps2chiperi know another russian guy that does business here14:32
Jay7but I'm crazy enterpeneur too :)14:32
Jay7some mix of admin/programmer/it-consultant/etc14:33
ps2chiperDo you do profit sharing projects?14:33
Jay7I'm mostly using opensource software to organize soho-business of my customers14:34
ps2chipercan you do embedded stuff14:34
Jay7yeah, I'm one from OpenEmbedded side14:34
ps2chiperoh yeah14:34
wolfspraulps2chiper: are you selling products in China?14:34
Jay7have 3 Sharp Zaurus, EfikaMX smarttop and Ben NN :)14:35
ps2chiperim not selling jack right now, i need to.14:35
Jay7kexecboot.org is my project too14:35
Jay7well, thesing was started it but I'm not leading development14:35
kristianpaulas Jon pointed the HTML5 sounded to me like something to NOW, i guess thats when the confussion began14:36
ps2chiperDo you do openwrt work?14:36
Jay7ps2chiper: no, I've not using OW now14:37
kristianpaulof course wolfgang pointed it like a new path, but that make sense if you're aware of projects like milkymist perhaps14:37
ps2chiperi had a few ideas for it, Jay714:37
Jay7ps2chiper: kyak is russian OW developer ;)14:37
ps2chiperwhen does he get online?14:38
Jay7he will say when will be around imho14:38
Jay7so you may describe your ideas here and he will look later :)14:39
ps2chiperwell for 1 pcb to work for clock radio and voip phone14:40
ps2chiperhow do you guys feel about samsung exynos?14:50
wolfspraulps2chiper: what is that?15:00
ps2chipersamsungs dual core a9 soc15:00
ps2chiperpretty powerful15:00
ps2chiperi may get access to that one15:00
ps2chiperthe only issue is it cost 24 usd each15:00
wolfsprauloh some of their new soc15:00
wolfspraulI'm past Samsung on SoCs15:01
ps2chiperwhy is that?15:01
wolfspraulbut I would say the same about TI and many others15:01
ps2chipersamsung has open userspace15:02
wolfspraulwell I don't know. I think those chips are flawed. it's a race.15:02
ps2chiperalso linaro supports ubuntu for it15:02
wolfspraulthey are hastily designed, hastily produced, hastily stuffed into products15:02
ps2chiperseems like a new soc every month15:02
wolfspraulyou ask for my opinion, now I give you my opinion, unfiltered15:02
wolfspraulopinions come a dime a dozen15:02
larscARM SoCs are kind of like mushrooms15:03
ps2chiperi didnt say you were wrong15:03
wolfspraulso I think those are products for the top-50 consumer electronics brands in the world, something like that15:03
ps2chiperits hard to avoid mips15:03
wolfspraulyou have to have a big engineering team to pull it off, everything has to be big15:03
wolfsprauland before long, the chip is gone15:04
wolfspraulnothing to see there, imho15:04
ps2chiperdo you have a ipad or iphone?15:04
ps2chiperwhat kind of phone do you have15:05
wolfspraultoo boring and predictable15:05
wolfspraulhardly any one, I bought the cheapest I could find in Shenzhen once, 118 RMB15:05
ps2chiperi have a iphone clone i got for free15:06
ps2chiper118 rmb is pretty cheap. dont drop it15:06
wolfspraulI bought 15 of them15:07
wolfspraulactually I had so many I threw some away, bad me15:08
wolfspraulshould have kept some since the one I have now has pretty bad signal strength15:08
ps2chiperi want one15:08
ps2chiperthere is a hotel on my street, 120 rmb a day15:08
ps2chiperi can pick you up from the airport and drop you off15:09
larscyou scared him away15:23
ps2chiperthat or he went out for his beer.15:27
ps2chiperwolfspraul, do you like chinese beer15:28
larsche left the channel15:29
rohps2chiper: can you check out if you get freescale chips for a good price?15:46
ps2chiperno, i dont have a connection to a freescale distributor. i can get amlogic for a good price.15:47
rohps2chiper: amlogic has no documentation public. freescale doesnt need registragion at all. they just have the pdf on the web.15:48
ps2chiperi got them, i can give them to you if you want15:48
rohno. i want the for EVERYONE.15:49
ps2chiperyou can give them to everyone15:49
wpwrakroh: how un-chinese of you ;-)15:49
rohi dont buy chips without documentation for everyone15:49
ps2chiperthen you should pay full price for freescale to show your support615:49
rohsorry.. dont get me wrong. please send them, but redistribution is difficult for everbody outside of china15:49
rohps2chiper: not an issue. their stuff isnt that expensive from my pov.15:50
ps2chiperhow much are you willing to pay for imx535?15:50
rohsee it that way.. if you buy a soc for 3$ and sell the device... when it arrives in europe its costs about 80$ minimum. so i dont care if the cpu costs 3$ or 5$, or even 10$, since the uppriceing happens elsewhere (and isnt linear)15:51
ps2chiperthats not true15:53
ps2chipernormally the way it works is you take the factory cost, double it and thats what you pay15:53
rohps2chiper: the imx535 is expensive (if available at distris at all) .. around 24$15:56
rohps2chiper: well. double is not reality for sales in europe or the us.15:56
ps2chiperwell the rumor is that the im535 is 18 usd in china15:56
ps2chiperI guess you guys pay triple in that case15:57
rohwhat does a imx28 cost you?15:57
ps2chiperis imx28 still in production?15:57
ps2chiperalso give me the full part purchasing number from the datasheet. it makes it easier for me to look them up.15:58
rohwell. doesnt really matter anyways. would need to look that up also 15:59
rohthere are about 8 versions with different packages/features16:00
rohanyhow. you save money on development because the linux port is already done and of high quality16:00
ps2chiperwell that is a difference of opinion, it depends on how many units you produce and what price you sell them for. then contrast it against the cost of software development16:01
ps2chiperif your selling 10k of something. and the price difference is 5 dollars. it makes sense to try and use a cheaper soc if you can improve the bsp.16:02
ps2chiperthats something they are doing for ingenic16:02
rohps2chiper: another factor is 'size' ..amlogic seems 'tiny' and i wouldnt know if they are still there in 5 years.16:04
ps2chiperjeez, you know how fast soc's get eol'ed16:04
rohto be fair.. i havent heard about them before you mentioned it. also i dont have a device with any of their soc (and i know whats inside my hw)16:05
ps2chiperit seems like the normal life span of a soc is 2-3 years if that16:05
ps2chiperwhere are you from roh?16:05
ps2chipergermany is one of the hardest countries in the world to sell electronics16:05
ps2chipermy boss works for katheirn receivers if you know of them.16:05
rohmaybe. but its reality that i still see products with really old soc coming in new. like old samsung 2442 etc.16:06
rohlooong eoled.. doesnt matter. still there.16:06
rohi know kathrein. yes. i would never sell a stb from them (sw sucks)16:06
rohalso totally overpriced16:06
rohthey have great cables and antennas (what the company builds themselves for decades) .. but they go no clue about digital stuff.16:07
ps2chipertry not to insult my boss, please16:07
rohi am not trying to. just stating my experiences as somebody who installed such equipment for customers for years.16:08
ps2chiperyou can direct your complaints to katheirn16:08
rohthe stb stuff from them looks like 'cheap oem' to me. dunno it thats true.16:08
rohlots of companies do that. (oem lots of stuff, only build the ones you know yourself) .. but that makes sw not better and customers not more happy. companies should sell what they REALLY know how to do.16:09
ps2chiperi dont work for katherin16:09
wpwrakps2chiper: roh likes to rant every once in a while. he usually cools down after an hour or so ;-)16:09
ps2chiperthey build their own stuff in china16:09
rohmeans: quality is everything.16:09
rohps2chiper: i am just trying to explain my sight on that market. most devices with a german brand label are oem. only a very few are developed locally (and even less built).16:10
ps2chiperI can introduce you to the chinese guy that does the software on them. i met him face to face16:11
rohps2chiper: not neccessary. i am luckily (for me) out of that market and job.. selling ce electronic is not fun with such a market (no money to earn by selling and mostly devices with bad bugs which annoy customers which then annoy me ;)16:15
lekernelps2chiper, what's inside the amlogic chips? CPU core licensed from ARM, SDRAM controller (also licensed I guess), PowerVR, ?16:15
rjeffriessupporting html5/css/javascript as a new app framework to run on copyleft hardware is not crazy, except it requires a lot more hardware resource than Ben Nanonote provides.16:19
rohrjeffries: ignore the sw part (html5 etc.) focus on hw facts16:20
ps2chiperim back16:20
rjeffriesIn order to be sucessful in copyleft world would need to be in addition to classic linux tools, not a replacement16:21
ps2chiperi will upload the QRM Quick Reference manual to megashares for everyone16:21
rjeffrieshi roh the hardware facts are pretty obvious to moi. ;)16:21
rohrjeffries: sorry.. just rambling.. hw vendors often try to 'make more wind' or 'confuse' the view of customers by mixing sw stuff in hw factsheets.. which makes no sense and has no value besides 'more things in the table' ;)16:23
ps2chiperthe problem is the android bsp16:23
rohthe gpu is an arm mali16:25
rohps2chiper: thanks.. to you also have a datasheet with register level details?16:27
rjeffriesps2chiper are you working with Amlogic?16:28
ps2chipernot yet, i have to put in a request16:28
ps2chiperyes our company has a NDA with amlogic in place that lets us get the inside stuff. very slowley 16:28
rjeffriesif they share details, at first glance this SOC looks pretty powerful. on eof many however16:28
rjeffriesps2chiper I assume the SOC comes from China?16:29
ps2chiperwell also amlogic has a usa office16:29
rohwell.. its a soc which will require license payments for mpeg etc.16:29
ps2chiperbut yes it comes from china16:29
rohof you will have shredderware on the tollboth16:29
rjeffriesdo amlogic have any design-ins yet for this soc16:29
ps2chiperi dont care about licenses if i do that well, i will be proud to get sued16:29
ps2chiperthats why we are using them. they support dvb pretty well16:30
rohps2chiper: not you, but the distributor will (usually)16:30
ps2chiperexcept they expect us to use android as the dvb interface16:30
rjeffriesps2chiper remind us what is dvb16:31
ps2chipermost mp3 players sold dont have license rights16:31
rohps2chiper: thats why there are many devices which do never make it to eu and us, since nobody takes the risk/work of license management and importing16:31
ps2chiperhow many of those get sued16:31
rohandroid has a dvb-interface?16:31
rjeffriesI googled but got nothiung useful16:31
ps2chiperamlogic created it16:31
ps2chiperits supposed to be released this month16:31
ps2chiperanyways i just want xbmc with tuner support16:32
ps2chiperalso ubuntu thin client16:32
ps2chiperstuff like that16:32
rohi see. google will not like that. they want their googletv pushed (i guess thats also android-esque) .. do you have any more insight there?16:32
ps2chiperi do, google tv will never be opened in my opinion16:33
ps2chiperjust the app part16:33
ps2chiperalso chinese have a strange way of thinking16:34
rohsame as for android. only the parts they couldnt close are open16:34
ps2chiperthey rather use the android name for everything, when they dont even understand that android is a phone os16:34
rjeffries 18-million gate portable media SoC16:34
larscandroid is a brand16:34
rohlarsc :) yes16:35
rjeffriesps2chiper are you a set top box company maybe16:35
rohgoogletv is just some apis on it afaik. (read some app coder guide)16:35
ps2chiperto them it is a brand, to us its a phone os16:35
larscthere are anroid radio clocks at IFA which sell for 150 euro, i mean who buys that?16:35
rohlarsc: nobody. ifa is completely worthless and waste of time. none of the guys buying expensive stuff en mass goes there anymore16:36
rohin general fairs are just big money waste machines nowadays.. see cebit16:36
lekernelah yeah, ARM Mali16:36
lekernelI saw a demo of it at an ARM technical conference in Paris, in 200716:37
lekernelI was just starting Milkymist16:37
rohack. mali is also closed afaik, but its from arm and will be reversed by somebody (not me) at some time.16:37
rohwill take till the first mali equpped chips are eol i guess ;)16:38
lekernelthe thing was running on a very expensive FPGA board and choking at a 7fps in 320x240 resolution16:38
lekernelrendering a very simple scene16:38
lekernelseeing it, I had a moment of hesitation about the technical feasibility of mm soc :-)16:39
rohlekernel: well.. they have all the gl overhead16:39
lekernelbut it seems their FPGA implementation simply sucked16:39
rohand thats 4 years ago16:39
lekernelthe s6 FPGA on the M1 is by far slower and smaller than what was on ARM's board16:40
rjeffrieslekernel which version/model of Spartan 6 do you use im MM?16:40
larsci've heard they can't really compete with powervr16:40
rohso who knows. afaik its en par with the pvr stuff and only exists because companies building soc asked arm if there was anything besides pvr they could buy/licence16:40
wpwrakroh: the milkymist gpu ! :)16:41
rohbbl.. need to fetch food.16:41
rjeffrieswpwrak you ~will~ place a blue led behind the qi logo on your front panel, won't you? 16:43
rjeffrieslekernel did you see my question above?16:44
wpwrak(blue led) err, probably not. i don't have anything there on which i could properly mount it.16:45
wpwraknot that the thought hadn't crossed my mind yet ... :)16:45
lekernelrjeffries, why?16:45
rjeffriesi am looking at this fpga dev board we use 16:46
rjeffrieswpwrak so you need a tiny little l bracket. would look so cool.16:55
rjeffriesyou need to get a 3d printer asap. ;)16:55
wpwrakyeah, that could be fun :)16:57
wpwraknaw, a proper solution would be to have another PCB that goes behind the front panel. or maybe even switch to a "tablet" form factor and have one PCB for connectors and circuit, or have a stack of PCBs16:58
wpwrakbut that's all complicated. what i have now is nice and simple :)16:58
rjeffriesI finally saw a cupcake at the santa barbara hacerspace a few weeks ago. pretty cool. 16:59
lekerneldid you give them milkymist and qi hardware advertising material?17:04
rjeffrieslekernel this dev board was purpose built but yes they know of MM17:40
rjeffrieslekernel I misunderstood. I had pitched Nanonote pretty hard to that group about a year ago. zero interest17:41
rjeffriesat some point I'll talkw with them re MM17:42
ps2chipercan i get a kernel guy to do me a favor. stephan from the openelec thinks the amlogic kernel includes the mali userspace portion18:04
ps2chipercould i get a second opinion. 18:04
lekernelps2chiper, http://opencores.org/articles,100482268218:07
lekernelps2chiper, fuck you, ARM corporation.18:07
kristianpaul7fps he :)18:08
ps2chiperdont take that guy shopping. 18:08
wpwraklekernel: 10 years ago, one patent half-life :)18:14
lekernelwpwrak, actually, all they used was intimidation, and no actual legal action18:15
lekernelbut if those fuckers send me a similar c&d letter, I won't take milkymist off the web this easily :-P18:15
kristianpaulif github... :)18:17
lekernelthen i'll move to another hosting provider. but so far, github as solved way more problems than it has created. long live github :-)18:17
wpwraklekernel: you could encrypt the sources, spread them via bittorrent, then get someone to print the decryption password in a book :)18:18
rohwpwrak: if its just that.... the ccc has a paper magazine which afaik happly will print weird strings.. 19:30
qi-bot[commit] Jiri Brozovsky: Txt2tags text to LaTeX/HTML/Lout/Man/Wiki/.. converter. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/d8fa13920:16
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09052011-1449/23:16
--- Tue Sep 6 201100:00

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