#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2011-09-03

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: made trace connecting the relays to 5V look less accidental (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/d8d372709:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: changed hole in DIP from 0.5 mm to 0.8 mm, ratio from 2.5 to 2 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/2a08a7d09:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: changed resistors for opto-coupler LEDs from 180 to 150 Ohm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/14f70fd09:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/sw/: basic firmware - just enumerates (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/e73383b09:31
wpwrakhmm, s/\/sw\//fw/09:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/fw/: added simple button -> LED / relay change loop (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/5649c8915:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/labsw.sch: label "IN_1" was in italics - changed to normal (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/513f3f815:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/LOG: log of development (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/cc6530715:45
larschi ps2chiper19:13
ps2chiperI have a hardware project i would like to do, i told larsc about it already. its an ubuntu thin client based on amlogic. but i dont know if it would be copyleft approved19:14
ps2chiperhey larsc, when is this channel most active?19:17
larscusually when there is an interesting subject to discuess ;)19:20
ps2chiperpoor me19:21
ps2chiperlarsc do you work for a solution company like windriver?19:22
larscgive it some time, people in here are from all around the world so some might be asleep19:22
larscps2chiper: never!19:22
ps2chiperi understand, i just want to know what time to be on at.19:23
ps2chiperwhat do you do for work in that case?19:23
larsca semiconductor company19:23
ps2chipercan you name said company?19:24
larscanalog devices19:24
ps2chiperspeaking of them, do you have a switch for controlling the power of a usb port by gpio?19:26
larscmost likely yes19:27
ps2chiperdo you have the sales guy email address that could help me locate that part?19:27
ps2chiperany way to help me on that issue at all?19:28
larscnot really19:29
ps2chiperthanks anyway19:29
ps2chiperwhat products do you work on?19:29
larscaudio codecs right now19:30
ps2chiperdo you have any that are spi and pcm compatible, i had some openwrt ideas i wanted to look into19:31
larscmostly all of them are19:31
larscsome though only have an i2c control port19:31
ps2chipercan you compete with realtek price wise?19:32
larsci don't know realtek prices19:32
ps2chiperabout 2 usd19:32
larscdepends on what kind of codec you want, but generally yes19:33
larscand quantiy of course19:34
ps2chiperlike 10k quanity19:34
ps2chiperi had an idea for openwrt clock radio and openwrt phone19:35
wpwrakps2chiper: (thin client) so ... what are you looking for ?19:36
ps2chiperim not a programmer, i need help with the software. i was told that if the bsp is good enough it can easy enough to get ubuntu running. but since its android based it could require serious hacking. or cant run ubuntu without a vanilla kernel from amlogic19:37
wpwraka bsp is usually a losing proposition, since these tend to be frozen somewhere in the past. of course, if you get one that's actively maintained ...19:39
ps2chiperwell the public kernel is at .34. i dont mind 10.04 ubuntu since that is a lts19:39
wpwraka bsp can be a starting point for making a kernel that is actually long-term viable, though. whether this works of not depends on whether the bsp includes binary-only stuff19:40
ps2chiperthey dont have the userspace for the gpu available, so i doubt that will happen.19:40
ps2chiperthe only reason i want to use amlogic is because its so cheap and easy to build19:40
ps2chiperonly a 4 layer pcb and a soc cost of 13 usd19:40
wpwrakcheap, as in "hidden cost" ? ;-)19:40
ps2chiperwhat do you mean by hidden cost?19:41
wpwraksome things cost you very little upfront. but you have to spend a lot of work to make them do what you want.19:41
ps2chiperif your talking software, all the vendors these days are hell bent on android19:42
wpwrakalso, amlogic is an entire system, right ? can you be sure the platform will be available for a while, without major changes ? or are you talking about what is commonly called an "anti-vendor port" ?19:42
ps2chiperhardware wise is not a problem since i work for a factory in shenzhen19:42
wpwrakso you're saying you can make the hardware, no matter what amlogic decide to do ?19:43
ps2chiperwell the amlogic soc was built with dvb in mind. amlogic is supposed to make their dvb code public this month too. 19:43
ps2chiperwell we are already using their platform to build a stb, we are going to try to port xbmc to it.19:44
ps2chiperkey word try19:44
ps2chiperbut they have that crappy android media player with a dvb tuner menu19:44
ps2chiperso we are going to use that to build dvb-t/c/s2/atsc devices 19:44
wpwrakneither stb or xbmc tell me anything. but ubuntu means basically linux. yet it sounds you're looking for more specific features ?19:45
ps2chiperand pray we can get openelec to work19:45
ps2chiperme, i feel that i could build a amlogic system at a bom cost of 30-40usd19:45
ps2chiperand im an ubuntu user, so i want to build ubuntu hardware19:46
wpwrakwhat would the hardware do ?19:46
ps2chiperexcept that aint easy with no devs that want to work on profit sharing19:46
ps2chiperwhich hardware are you talking about, stb or thin client19:46
wpwrakthe hardware you can build for 30-40 USD BOM19:46
ps2chipera mini itx board19:47
wpwrakso it's x86 ?19:47
ps2chiperno, i mean 17cm x 17cm size so it can fit in mini itx cases19:47
wpwrakok. itx form factor. what would it do ? boot, say "hello, world !", then shut down ?19:48
ps2chiperwell thats why i am trying to hunt down a dev that would like to help put ubuntu on it19:48
ps2chiperi wouldnt build hardware without software19:49
wpwrakif you want to "put ubuntu on it", then you probably have to talk to shuttleworth or someone high-ranking at ubuntu19:50
ps2chiperive been chasing eric miao for months19:50
ps2chiperhe always puts it off, so i am trying to find someone else19:50
ps2chiperi dont care if its official or not at this point19:50
wpwrakif you want to build a platform that could run any distribution, including ubuntu, you'd have smaller piece of work on your hands19:51
wpwrakwhether you'd find someone who'd do whatever is necessary to make ubuntu run on it, is another question19:51
ps2chiperamlogic hardware is already for sale, has been for a few months19:51
wpwraki suppose, a prerequisite may still be that it runs debian19:52
ps2chiperjust from an average user stand point, they would demand ubuntu19:52
wpwrakso what you're looking for is a strategic alliance with ubuntu19:52
ps2chiperwhat other people do with the hardware is up to them, i will always supply my code to the public19:52
ps2chiperno more than qi hardware has a strategic alliance with openwrt19:53
rohubuntu is only good on powerfull machines. i dont see any sense in using it for stuff thats optimized to be used like an appliance (which stb defintively fits into)19:54
wpwrakso ubuntu .. hmm, approval, isn't a prerequisite for you to make the hardware and/or make regular linux run on it ?19:54
ps2chiperwell they have an imx535 board that ships with ubuntu, people say that runs fine19:54
rohits more a question of 'does it make sense'19:55
wpwrakroh: for better or worse, ubuntu is recently targeting small devices. tablets and such19:55
ps2chiperwell with the hardware video decoding, it does make sense since it wont have problems watching movies19:55
ps2chipermost task dont require that much power19:55
ps2chiperim using a 4 year old pc right now19:55
roha distro like openwrt is simply spoken much more intended to be used as appliance compared to a 'multi-hw-desktop/server'-distro like ubuntu or debian.19:55
ps2chiperi think unity is for arm tablets19:56
ps2chiperit doesnt feel right on a desktop19:56
rohwpwrak: i know. but it has not much to do with the regular ubuntu branches and its fuckingly slow on these devices. and you need a completely reworked ui since on touch/remote only devices no regular desktop apps or ui makes any sense.19:56
wpwrakroh: well, they;ve been busy dumbing down the UI ...19:57
rohwpwrak: in the end... if you do not have a disk, fast internet and a cpu >=800mhz its no fun to use a desktop os19:57
ps2chiperthats why if the amlogic .34 kernel can support 10.04, it would be good enough to start with and just run the project for year and do another one based on a newer soc later on19:57
wpwrakroh: just wait, a few more years, and it will all be just one button - like the rotten fruit's mouse :)19:57
wpwrak(actually, do apple mice still have just one button, like in the old days, or have they grown more ?)19:58
rohwpwrak: maybe. still makes no sense/things easier to build an appliance from it. besides.. support for ubuntu based ce-devices (pdas, pads etc) is really bad. you basically are stuck with what you got it with. usually you already have no support for your special hw one major release later (1 year)19:58
virickyak: ping19:58
wpwrakroh: hmm, but that's not an intrinsic ubuntu problem19:59
rohso from my perspective... building a device without keyboard+mouse/touchpad/touchscreen, dont use ubuntu, use openwrt or similar.19:59
ps2chipercome on guys, i just want to build a cheap ubuntu thin client. not debate philosophy19:59
rohwpwrak: it is for any 'big vendor <-> small vendor vertical' check history.19:59
rohps2chiper: there are zillions. why care?20:00
wpwrakps2chiper: i think ubuntu is secondary to your project. the first step would to be have control of the platform. that may also include determining which peripherals you can't support, due to non-open drivers.20:00
viricps2chiper: you are free to make an ubuntu for the nanonote :)20:00
rohps2chiper: besides. as soon as you can run ubuntu on it its NOT a 'thin' client anymore, by definition.20:00
ps2chiperi dont think their are zillions, and no i dont see a mips release of ubuntu20:00
ps2chiperyou guys are beating me down20:01
rohps2chiper: if you want advice... dont use any soc where you do not have ALL source.20:01
wpwrakps2chiper: i thought you said it was an ARM device ?20:01
ps2chiperi do have all the source except the gpu20:01
ps2chiperingenic is mips, right?20:01
wpwrakps2chiper: can you do what you need without using the non-open parts of the GPU ?20:02
larscroh: don't use a soc where the source is upstream20:02
wpwrakps2chiper: yes, it's MIPS20:02
ps2chiperwell why cant i use the gpu?20:02
wpwraklarsc: huh ?20:02
larscwpwrak: !20:02
wpwrakps2chiper: you said you don't have the sources -> it's not usable20:02
rohps2chiper: if you dont have gpu source , use another soc.20:03
ps2chiperhow is a binary blob gpu driver not usuable. im just stuck with their kernel20:03
wpwraklarsc: "don't use a soc where the source is upstream" = don't use something that already works ? :)20:03
ps2chipertheir new soc has the binary blob gpu now20:03
wpwrakps2chiper: i think you answered your question yourself ;-)20:03
larscwpwrak: woops. don't use a soc where the source is _not_ upstream20:03
wpwraklarsc: aha ! yes, that i can agree with ;-)20:04
rohor it will cost you loads of time, customers, endless stress and your hair. ah.. and shitloads of money, and you are still not guranteed to solve the problem. simply spoken: do NOT use ANY binary components. they will bite you in the ass.20:04
ps2chiperbut i just want to use 10.0420:04
wpwrakps2chiper: forget binary blobs. they'll come back to haunt you. they always do. every single time.20:05
ps2chipereveryone has blobs,20:05
wpwrakps2chiper: nyet :)20:05
ps2chiperwho doesnt have a blob?20:05
rohthats a really old industry-lie from companies like nvidia20:05
ps2chiperoh god20:05
rohps2chiper: i currently dont have on on the machine i am typing on.20:05
larscthere are different kinds of blobs. blob drivers and blob firmware20:05
ps2chiperwho doesnt use a binary blob on a soc?20:05
ps2chiperwell name one that has open userspace20:06
wpwrakps2chiper: ben nanonote, openmoko freerunner, any pc i've owned since 1992, ...20:06
ps2chipername one that a person at walmart would buy?20:06
rohps2chiper: my thinkpad.20:06
ps2chipername one arm or mips soc that has a 3d gpu with an open userspace so its upstream compatible20:07
wpwrakdoes s3c2442+glamo count ? :)20:07
Action: wpwrak ducks20:07
ps2chiperone that is not eol20:07
rohps2chiper: the only blob is userspace and not a driver (flashplayer). thats it. no single driver has a blob which has executable code which runs on the cpu and or any cpu with access to the memory. (blobs you load into something like wifi cards do not count, if the loader is opensource and the driver is foss)20:07
ps2chiperim not hardcore foss, i like foss but i work with in my limitations20:08
rohps2chiper: thats not the point at all.20:08
ps2chiperif i have to take it up the a$$ from an soc vendor, i try to do it with a smile20:09
wpwrakps2chiper: perhaps that's why you perceive a general absence of developers in that area - people with the necessary experience know that there's nothing but pain for them there :)20:09
rohps2chiper: its simply that we ALL have only bad experiences with blobs. basically a blob in the driver framework is a warranty to fail as a business. you simply have no chance to support your customers.20:09
wpwrakps2chiper: the sane approach is to simply ignore any features that require a closed driver. then decide whether the platform still makes sense.20:09
ps2chiperi understand you guys, if i had a 50 million dollars, i would build my own open 3d gpu for foss to avoid these problems20:09
rohevery blob containing driver is making sure that you will be fixed at that kernelversion/abi.20:10
ps2chiperi know, but there is nobody i know that doesnt have this issue currently20:10
larscif you had 50 million dollers you could pay the company which does the blob to release a blob for your system20:10
larscbut i guess you don't have20:10
ps2chipernot legally20:10
ps2chiperbecause they wont release it as free software20:11
ps2chiperso it wouldnt help you unless you want to violate licenses20:11
larscno, but they'll recompile it for your kernel20:11
ps2chiperbut how would that help you?20:11
ps2chiperit needs to be foss to comply with copy left20:11
rohlarsc: not even paying for it would fix the problem that you are stuck with whatever your vendor delivers.20:11
rohsee the gllin desaster.20:11
ps2chiperthats my point20:11
rohthe vendor was too incompetent to fix the problem.20:11
ps2chipertry to make do with what they give me20:11
rohthese products are one-shot fails. there is no support. so you need specs/docs and do your support yoursellf.20:12
wpwraklarsc: it would still suck if you had to depend on them to regenerate their blob for you. e.g., that's roughly the situation with closed GPU drivers for PCs. would you as a kernel developer use one ?20:12
larscbtw. i think intel is one of the companies who is pushing for a blob free openvr driver20:12
ps2chiperlets give the gpu issue a break for a few mintues20:12
ps2chiperhow about ralink based openwrt clock radios and voip phones20:13
rohbesides.. what the hell does one really need a 3d gpu for? for a ui? no.20:13
ps2chiperthey have open drivers20:13
rohbuy a console.20:13
ps2chiperi own all 3 consoles20:13
ps2chiperi hate pc gaming, f windows20:13
ps2chipereverytime i uses my wifes computer, i feel like im watching movie trailers20:14
wpwrakps2chiper: don't worry too much about the license. the license just expresses sad practical experience. the unfortunate fact is that essential closed source elements in your system become the one point that will absorb most of your attention and ultimately resources.20:14
wpwrakps2chiper: that is, unless you take "fire and forget" approach20:14
wpwraks/take/take the/20:14
ps2chiperi never cared about ip rights20:15
ps2chiperim in china20:15
wpwrakchina is all about "fire and forget" ;-)20:15
ps2chiperi know your point of upstream compatibility. but i cant do that with amlogic, yet. but maybe we can just make 10.04 work easily enough20:15
ps2chiperand that would be great20:15
roheven if you ignore all the soc problems.. in the end the mpeg-mafia will eat you alive.20:15
wpwrakmake product today. sell tomorrow. after tomorrow, the world may as well end ;-)20:16
ps2chipertell that to on2 that got f'ed by china20:16
ps2chipermake product today. sell tomorrow. after tomorrow, the world may as well end ;-). good enough for me20:16
rohon2 was bought by google. they are in the dry.20:16
ps2chiperthis was back 5 years ago20:16
ps2chiperthe chinese government wanted their own dvd standard20:17
ps2chiperthey hired on2. got the ip, and discarded them20:17
rohps2chiper: ip rights are your major problem in that market. every technical problem is less worrying20:17
ps2chiperon2 sued them and lost20:17
rohwho cares what happens inside china.20:17
ps2chiperon2 did20:17
ps2chiperdoesnt wolfgang live in china?20:17
rohyour problem is not inside china. but the eu and the us easily shreddering your hardware on the border.20:18
wpwrakwell, around here, we care a bit more about sustainability. the basic idea is to gain control of the technology you use. that gives you a number of benefits, including the ability to influence how long things stay available, and to make adaptations from the original design.20:18
ps2chiperi dont care about them either20:18
ps2chiperi can sell to brazil20:18
wpwrakroh: FOB shanghai :)20:18
rohsame problem: thats not a market where you can earn money to support the whole development.20:18
ps2chiperwhy not20:18
wpwrakbrazil is big. but has very high import taxes and fees.20:19
ps2chiperif i sold 5000 pcs a month to brazil i would be happy20:19
rohno money in that markets. you sell basically for your bom prices.20:19
ps2chiperwell i dont think so since we already sell to brazil20:19
ps2chiperremember i do work for a factory20:19
rohps2chiper: such markets usually only get targeted by companies who specialize in local things or ones that already squeezed all they can from the european and the us market.20:20
wpwrakroh: i think he meant pieces, not PCs :)20:20
ps2chiperthe import tax from what i understand depends on the product being imported20:20
ps2chiperthats how shanzhai works in shenzhen20:21
wpwrakroh: not at all. but they have to adapt to the local market. usually by doing part of the production locally.20:21
ps2chiperthey just build 5000 pcs of one product and thats it20:21
ps2chiperand they make plenty of profit for a small company20:21
wpwrakroh: not quite like in china, though20:21
wpwrakps2chiper: correct. different types of products have different taxes. but for electronics, brazil is about 100%.20:22
ps2chiperhow many nanonote were sold to brazil by the way?20:22
ps2chiperI dont know about that, they sure buy a lot of satellite receivers20:22
wpwrakdunno. wolfgang may. it's still a bit too early in china for him to be up yet, though20:23
wpwrakoh yes, brazilians are crazy about tv ...20:23
ps2chiperhold on, i got a few people from brazill on my msn20:23
ps2chiperlet me ask them20:23
larscbtw. import taxes on electronics are 60%20:24
ps2chiperhold on, im asking a importer now20:24
rohwhatever... for me the whole point of foss electronics/open hw is not 'throwing more plastic garbage' into the world but have devices i can reuse, abuse, recycle, repair.20:25
rohstuff i own, not stuff i use, and then discard because the vendor is long gone an i cannot get the information i need to reuse or repair it.20:25
ps2chiperthats a pretty hard thing to say to a guy who makes his bread and butter selling things people dont need20:27
rohps2chiper: maybe. but wouldnt you feel much better doing devices people have fun using and which do not break?20:27
wpwraklarsc: maybe .. i got all sorts of numbers. the 100% figure comes from USP. i got slightly lower figures from others, but these often didn't include additional administrative fees.20:28
ps2chipernot with my wife bashing my head from not making money20:28
wpwrakps2chiper: is she chinese ? :)20:28
ps2chipershe made me promise to buy her a house this year, and right now we have nothing to sell20:28
ps2chiperyes she is chinese20:28
rohand because i am 'aware' of what i buy, usually atleast, i am ready to pay some more for good devices. hey.. after all i am only using high-end selections of devices anyhow already.20:28
ps2chiperim trying to find devs to help me out20:28
ps2chiperbut its been a hard year on us20:28
ps2chiperyou know i dont think a ubuntu thin client would sell well. i do think a xbmc dvb stb would sell very well against the dreambox. but finding devs that work on profit sharing is a pain in the ass20:31
wpwrakps2chiper: in the copyleft hw business, you need to have patience. we're still building the basics. acquiring skills, upping our BATNA. that's really important. you'd be surprised how quickly some "closed-only" companies come around when they realize that you don't need them.20:31
ps2chiperyou know the psjailbreak20:31
ps2chiperi was the only guy that made and sold a copy left one20:31
rohthe problem with stb is that the market is really ugly.20:31
ps2chiperi have 2500 atemga168 left over20:32
rohlots of people making money from breaking paytv etc.20:32
ps2chiperthats what we do20:32
ps2chiperthat was what my openwrt project was about20:32
ps2chiperi used openwrt to support ssp20:32
wpwrakps2chiper: i think you want wolfgang should have a beer once. you do things the dirty way. he likes that ;)20:32
ps2chiperfor the satellite receivers, so they can connect them to the internet20:32
ps2chiperi talked to him a few years ago20:33
rohheh... well.. from my time inside a company doing stbs i can tell that its really no fun selling such stuff in the end. always comes back to you.20:33
ps2chiperhe hasnt been on skype in ages20:33
ps2chipernot in china20:33
wpwrakps2chiper: people who matter don't social network, skype, and so on :)20:33
ps2chiperthe government shields us from foreigners20:33
ps2chiperi take that as an insult20:33
rohhe usually is in here at asian daytime20:34
wpwrakps2chiper: no, take it as an encouragement :)20:34
rohmaybe 4-6 hours from now *g*20:34
ps2chiperno, how can you say to to someone whos friends all use gtalk and skype20:34
ps2chiperthat is pretty insulting20:34
ps2chiperi talk to eric miao from canonical over gtalk20:34
ps2chiperare you saying he doesnt matter20:34
wpwrakps2chiper: maybe he's just weak :)20:35
ps2chiperi think you should keep those opinions on chat clients to your self20:35
roh .oO(using google tools to talk about stuff google also does... hrhr)20:35
rohsee google-tv20:36
ps2chiperugghy dont get me started on google tv and boxee20:36
rohjust do not 'trust' google. ever.20:36
ps2chiperi dont, but we all use it20:36
ps2chiperits like sugar20:36
ps2chiperwe know its bad for us, but we cant help it20:36
ps2chiperhey did you guys know mandrian is the most widely spoken language in the world?20:37
wpwrakps2chiper: i'm not surprised :) do you speak it ? your english writing sounds as if you were a native english speaker, that's why i ask20:38
ps2chiperit should be since i am american. but my mandrian is crap. i have a language block in my brain. but i exceed at political science.20:39
wpwrakps2chiper: heh :)20:39
larscps2chiper: what brought you to china?20:39
rohmay i ask whats your position inside that company?20:40
ps2chiperi used to work in a japanese headlight factory, got tired of it. i wanted a really long vacation off my saving so i thought china was cheap enough. so i moved here.20:40
ps2chiperright now my position is dog shit since i didnt make any money yet.20:40
ps2chiperi was supposed to get boxee going in may, but they turned out to be liars about being open20:41
ps2chiperwhich actually we did get boxee working on our hardware, but found all the stuff they omitted20:41
rohhm. dunno boxee.. looks like a lock-in system to me20:42
ps2chiperwhen we pressed them on it. they said in reality they had no intention of working with us, unless we could prove we could sell 300k a year of boxee20:42
ps2chiperboxee is based on xbmc20:42
rohah. so its propably atleast a partial gpl-violation in the end?20:42
ps2chiperoh yeah20:43
rohgood to know ;)20:43
ps2chiperthey actually had some gpl3 software in it the nand read only part20:43
rohdo they sell in germany?20:43
ps2chiperyes they do20:43
ps2chiperthey have already been reported to gpl violations 20:44
ps2chiperyou know who are big losers. the meego people20:44
rohits toast (meego)20:44
ps2chiperi was on there irc channel and i told them if they wanted anyone to build hardware for them. i would try.20:45
rohhm. seems like boxee isnt pushed in .de due to netflix etc not being available here20:45
ps2chiperthey gave me a list of all the hacked meego devices and told me i sold pay for there service since i was not needed20:45
ps2chipernot pushed but sold20:45
ps2chiperi told them the reason why meego flopped was because the devs didnt make a effort to push hardware on the market20:46
ps2chiperthen they banned me20:46
ps2chiperI wish i could get this guy to work for our factory, stephan@openelec.tv20:47
ps2chiperhe has made a lot of progress with xbmc20:47
rohps2chiper: sure boxee was reported to gpl-violations? cannot find the ticket20:48
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09032011-0158/20:48
ps2chiperwell im friends with luke from gpl violations, and he knows about it. also the openboxee guy made a huge fuss on it20:48
rohi dont know any luke? maybe it was the fsf in the us or europe?20:49
rohps2chiper: anyhow.. if you got any more details there.. can you please mail it to mailto:license-violation@gpl-violations.org and add any details you have (name parts missing etc)20:51
ps2chiperinfinityoverzero.com/bbox/ 20:52
ps2chiperso there has already been a fuss over it20:55
ps2chiperbut i cant use their software and call it boxee20:55
ps2chiperso i wont waist my time any more on it20:55
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