| wolfspraul | I use trademarks (tm) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| wolfspraul | unregistered | 00:00 |
| wolfspraul | feel super happy about it | 00:00 |
| wolfspraul | if someone wants to bully me, go ahead. would be the same (even more likely) if it were registered. | 00:00 |
| wolfspraul | I should have done this from the beginning, would have easily saved me 5000 USD or so. | 00:01 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: logo/corners.fig: some clarifications here as well (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6f479af | 00:02 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:wernermisc (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c340788 | 00:02 |
| wolfspraul | they are building the system of registrations up more and more btw | 00:03 |
| wolfspraul | no matter how rotten it is, and how companies ignore it in real life | 00:03 |
| wolfspraul | Madrid protocol, community designs, etc. | 00:03 |
| wolfspraul | lots of databases can be built | 00:03 |
| wolfspraul | and every record and modification can be billed | 00:03 |
| wpwrak | three walls of text posted :) | 00:05 |
| wpwrak | (everything can be billed) hidden inflation :) | 00:06 |
| wolfspraul | yeah - walls - done. unregistered trademarks (tm) rule. :-) | 00:08 |
| wpwrak | trademarks, patents, "community designs" ... the things our lawmakers do for the apples of this world | 00:11 |
| wpwrak | next: dinner | 00:13 |
| wolfspraul | enjoy :-) | 00:13 |
| wolfspraul | how is your flu btw? | 00:13 |
| wpwrak | slowly retreating. must be one of the bacterial variants. a virus would be gone after just a few days. | 00:14 |
| rejon | wpwrak, this is cool shit | 00:30 |
| rejon | didn't you have the SVG of the logo? | 00:30 |
| rejon | its in the slide deck | 00:30 |
| rejon | wpwrak, how can i edit this fig? | 00:30 |
| rejon | i want to get a simple toolchain setup for developers/artists | 00:30 |
| rejon | with cad and solid modeling btw | 00:30 |
| rejon | i have a target in mind | 00:30 |
| wpwrak | rejon: (svg) naw, didn't even search for it (beyond checking if the link on the image led anywhere interesting) | 00:32 |
| rejon | http://matthope.org | 00:32 |
| wpwrak | rejon: (edit) with good old xfig :) | 00:32 |
| rejon | if we can make our toolchain useful for designers, we will be better off | 00:32 |
| rejon | i can get attention from these inkscape devs and more | 00:32 |
| rejon | right now people like matt and architects use autocad and some solid modeling tool like solidworks | 00:33 |
| rejon | anyway, next time wolfspraul and i meet, i want to go over the standard package and some of our basic tools | 00:33 |
| rejon | we shouldn't just have internal tools for chips, but also for case design, etc | 00:33 |
| rejon | anyway, just some thoughts | 00:33 |
| rejon | but is an area we can do 80-85% | 00:34 |
| rejon | we can get the useful linux devs onto our projects if we phrase as design | 00:34 |
| rejon | etc | 00:34 |
| rejon | imo | 00:34 |
| wpwrak | (tools) yeah, i don't have much good stuff there either. i have a halfway decent if a little cryptic toolchain to go from kicad to pcb (all basically 2D) | 00:35 |
| wpwrak | for 3D it's either scripts or (once, for the counterweight) heekscad | 00:35 |
| rejon | can you document it? | 00:35 |
| wpwrak | eventually :) some parts still need changing | 00:36 |
| wpwrak | e.g., the tool (sw and hw) for aligning the machine with the board needs revising. the old design was very sub-optimal and the hardware is coming apart these day | 00:37 |
| wpwrak | s | 00:37 |
| wpwrak | the underlying magic of going from kicad to a pcb is basically here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atben/cam/mkmk | 00:38 |
| wpwrak | plus some makefiles, as usual. and of course the tools that do the actual number crunching | 00:38 |
| wolfspraul | rejon: nice, people seem to like your Ben logo (the character with circle around it) - see the inclusion in the bootscreen proposed by Andrea Bolognani on the list | 00:45 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: hey, you misunderstand 'registered trademark' in your mail | 00:51 |
| wolfspraul | if a trademark is not registered, that doesn't mean at all that it can be "ignored or ridiculed" | 00:51 |
| wolfspraul | you fell for some propaganda of the legal profession | 00:51 |
| wpwrak | hmm, okay | 00:52 |
| wolfspraul | trademarks in all major jurisdiction are established and solidified through _USING_ them | 00:52 |
| wolfspraul | worst case if a case goes to court you need to demonstrate with a poll or so that people think of your product when they hear a certain expression | 00:52 |
| wolfspraul | the system of 'registrations' was added later to simplify the dispute process | 00:52 |
| wolfspraul | but it's completely broken (the registrations, not trademarks) | 00:53 |
| wpwrak | can you license an unregistered trademark ? | 00:53 |
| wolfspraul | of course | 00:53 |
| wolfspraul | trademarks are coming from real life, they gain value by use and by how widely they are recognized | 00:53 |
| wpwrak | okay, then my statements need editing :) | 00:53 |
| wolfspraul | so for example if a company registers a trademark, but never uses it, it's nearly worthless | 00:53 |
| wolfspraul | at least that was the old idea | 00:53 |
| wolfspraul | of course lawyers want to do more and more registrations | 00:53 |
| wolfspraul | because they can charge fees :-) | 00:54 |
| wolfspraul | like I said, unregistered trademarks are identified with a little (tm) character | 00:54 |
| wolfspraul | that's a 'normal' trademark | 00:54 |
| wolfspraul | a company thinks it's their trademark | 00:54 |
| wolfspraul | registered trademarks are identified with a (r) | 00:54 |
| wolfspraul | the system of registrations was built on top of the idea of trademarks, so there are less disputes, or disputes can be settled more effectively | 00:55 |
| wolfspraul | but it doesn't really work :-) | 00:55 |
| wolfspraul | because any large company will just take you to court and they will proove there that people think of their product, not yours | 00:55 |
| wolfspraul | basically a registration sets a legal papertrail proactively | 00:56 |
| wolfspraul | so you have some starting documents when it goes to court | 00:56 |
| wolfspraul | a lawyer I know worked on the contract between Ferrari and Ferrero for a while, he said it's a multi-hundred page long thing :-) | 00:57 |
| wolfspraul | so this is all taken very seriously in Western markets, and increasingly even in China | 00:57 |
| wolfspraul | so please, NanoNote, Qi, Sharism, Milkymist, are all trademarks | 00:58 |
| wolfspraul | all/most are unregistered | 00:58 |
| wolfspraul | so it's NanoNote (tm), not NanoNote (r) | 00:58 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark | 01:00 |
| wolfspraul | no more need for walls | 01:00 |
| wolfspraul | ok, some excerpt maybe "a trademark may be established through actual use in the marketplace, or through registration of the mark with the trademarks office" | 01:01 |
| wolfspraul | "In some jurisdictions, trademark rights can be established through either or both means. Certain jurisdictions generally do not recognize trademarks rights arising through use. " | 01:02 |
| wolfspraul | I could imagine that for example in China (with a very basic legal system anyway), bringing forward a trademark case for an unregistered trademark is completely hopeless, whereas bringing forward a trademark case for a registered trademark will at least create some activity | 01:03 |
| wpwrak | hmm, i see. okay, with unregistered trademarks, we still get make rule on their use ? the fine detail would be in the copying. (r) also includes similar. (tm) would be more fuzzy. but maybe that's something we can gloss over. | 01:06 |
| wolfspraul | of course, if you 'establish' your trademark through 'actual use in the marketplace', then it's still a trademark you own etc. | 01:08 |
| wolfspraul | you overvalue the registration | 01:08 |
| wolfspraul | maybe lawyer is your secret second hobby? :-) | 01:08 |
| wolfspraul | in fact in many jurisdictions you have to protect your trademark otherwise it ceases to exist as a trademark you own | 01:08 |
| wpwrak | some of the things on that wikipedia article suggest that (r) does give you more power than (tm). beyond merely establishing a paper trail. | 01:09 |
| wolfspraul | that means you have to setup rules how others can or cannot use it, and you have to enforce those rules (again, depends heavily on jurisdiction) | 01:09 |
| wpwrak | yup | 01:09 |
| wolfspraul | certainly a lot of people are working in that direction | 01:09 |
| wolfspraul | (r) is good for (their) business | 01:09 |
| wolfspraul | but as I described above it's also a trap. others will just trample over it, which I have seen first hand. | 01:10 |
| wolfspraul | the lawyers will show up before you, behind you, left and right, and everybody will have an invoice in hand for you. | 01:10 |
| wolfspraul | so I prefer unregistered trademarks, let's call them original and true trademarks :-) | 01:10 |
| wolfspraul | (tm) | 01:10 |
| wolfspraul | established through use in the marketplace | 01:11 |
| wolfspraul | and hey, we have a fairly efficient domain name system too | 01:11 |
| wolfspraul | although it is slowly deteriorating with company top level domains for 500k USD etc. | 01:11 |
| wolfspraul | the marking (tm) and (r) gives you a hint about what was the original way | 01:14 |
| wpwrak | yeah. so (r) is basically a legal snarl | 01:15 |
| wolfspraul | well. every profession tries to grow their business :-) | 01:16 |
| wolfspraul | read the section on "well-known status" for a good laugh | 01:17 |
| wolfspraul | the underlying ideas of trademarks are good imo. it's about avoiding confusion, product quality. | 01:18 |
| wolfspraul | companies should use them and protect them, and if there is a dispute take it to court | 01:19 |
| wpwrak | where all bets are off anyway | 01:19 |
| wolfspraul | the court process should be individual, not automated. the attempt to automate it just creates hot air for nobodys good. | 01:19 |
| wolfspraul | seriously you can close all worldwide trademark registration office | 01:19 |
| wolfspraul | a few thousand people would loose their jobs and could do something more valuable in society | 01:20 |
| wolfspraul | or maybe even a few ten thousand, who knows | 01:20 |
| wolfspraul | the trademark system would even become more efficient and better from it | 01:20 |
| wolfspraul | my opinion | 01:20 |
| wolfspraul | and we think that the 2000 USD registration fee for a USB vendor ID are bad :-) | 01:21 |
| wolfspraul | hey, how about a wiki based trademark system | 01:22 |
| wolfspraul | the power of the people decides who wins | 01:22 |
| wolfspraul | wikitrademark.org | 01:22 |
| wolfspraul | all trademarks are registered and described there. word marks, graphical marks, which industry/product type, etc. etc. | 01:22 |
| wpwrak | yeah. dunno how much of an effective advantage (r) gives you. it's certainly no spell of unvulnerability. | 01:22 |
| wolfspraul | no totally not | 01:22 |
| wolfspraul | /* source inside */ - a true story | 01:23 |
| wolfspraul | fully registered, for 5+ years | 01:23 |
| wolfspraul | so? | 01:23 |
| wolfspraul | Intel doesn't care :-) | 01:23 |
| wolfspraul | you registered it :-) if you believe this gives you some power, fine. here's what we demand from you now: A) B) C) D) | 01:23 |
| wolfspraul | you have 3 days | 01:23 |
| wolfspraul | if you don't, then ... bla bla bla | 01:23 |
| wpwrak | well, elphel vs. intel is extremely mismatched | 01:23 |
| wolfspraul | yes but it was a fully registered and used trademark | 01:24 |
| wpwrak | and it may cost intel a lot to actually win in court (and you, too) | 01:24 |
| wolfspraul | so what is the value of registration again? | 01:24 |
| wpwrak | did elphel try to fight back ? | 01:24 |
| wolfspraul | the registration process has all these levels "opposition phase" etc. | 01:24 |
| wolfspraul | but it's all hot air | 01:24 |
| wolfspraul | no of course not | 01:24 |
| wolfspraul | a 3 person family business | 01:24 |
| wpwrak | so you don't know. they ran at the first bark. | 01:24 |
| wolfspraul | they have zero chance | 01:24 |
| wolfspraul | their mistakes were two: | 01:25 |
| wpwrak | you don't know. maybe intel would find it more efficient to just buy the registered trademark. | 01:25 |
| wolfspraul | a) believe in the registration (waste of money, very little actual legal value, of course the lawyers won't tell you) | 01:25 |
| wolfspraul | b) not see the 'inside' monopolization earlier, they should have just stayed away from it on their own initiative | 01:25 |
| wpwrak | yes, b) is bad. they took a risk. | 01:26 |
| wolfspraul | correct. they are from the industry. | 01:26 |
| wolfspraul | when they registered it, they surely knew "intel inside" | 01:26 |
| wolfspraul | of course they believed in the registration process | 01:26 |
| wolfspraul | but it's just a fake process :-) | 01:26 |
| wolfspraul | it doesn't mean anything | 01:26 |
| wolfspraul | Intel will not take their dispute to the trademark office, why should they. | 01:27 |
| wolfspraul | it's a useless paper pushing office | 01:27 |
| wolfspraul | close it | 01:27 |
| wolfspraul | no harm, no loss | 01:27 |
| wolfspraul | the idea of trademarks is not to monopolize words, but to not allow one company to piggypack their business on another company, by confusing consumers about who is who | 01:30 |
| wolfspraul | disputes are best handled case by case, either directly between businesses, or in court | 01:30 |
| wolfspraul | so the best way imo is to use trademarks established through actual use in the marketplace, and identified with (tm) when possible | 01:30 |
| wpwrak | yes, the obvious "correct use" would be fake products. the problem seems to be in the concept of similarity or confusion of the customer being applied way too liberally | 01:32 |
| wpwrak | fake products in the sense of a wholesale copy of an exiting product or creating a fake product. e.g., an Apple iTV (if that doesn't exist yet) | 01:35 |
| wolfspraul | to be fair to the big corps, when you introduce a new global product/brand, it is nearly impossible to not step onto some small guy somewhere | 01:37 |
| wolfspraul | I believe there was a fairly big company using 'iPad' in Japan, for a point-of-sales system or so. Fujitsu? something like that | 01:37 |
| wolfspraul | but what can Apple do | 01:37 |
| wolfspraul | a separate name for Japan? | 01:38 |
| wolfspraul | so they just move forward, and take the heat | 01:38 |
| wolfspraul | in the case of Fujitsu (or whoever it was), they 'settled' :-) | 01:38 |
| wolfspraul | out of court of course, in private | 01:38 |
| wolfspraul | the trademark was registered (in Japan), was in actual use, was backed by a large company | 01:39 |
| wolfspraul | but in the end it still had to give way, and I think actually it's better for everybody | 01:39 |
| wolfspraul | imagine the iPad being called jPad in Japan | 01:39 |
| wolfspraul | not good | 01:39 |
| wolfspraul | also you can imagine hundreds of smart guys to register iWhatever now in hopes of striking gold one day | 01:40 |
| wolfspraul | which they won't ;-) | 01:40 |
| wolfspraul | they will get a nice nastygram though | 01:40 |
| wpwrak | some may still try. particularly trolls who are lawyers themselves have a bit of an advantage there. | 01:56 |
| kristianpaul | hum, kcryptd ca be a little cpu eating.. i wonder how it can behave on a theorically encrypted fs on the nanonote :-) | 02:29 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: pem update to 0.7.9 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1aac941 | 03:35 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/77c55db | 03:35 |
| kristianpaul | hum smart is ok, wonder what hapened to the hardisk last night.. | 03:46 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu: had you sucefull boot linux on your M1 rihght? | 03:47 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul, yes | 03:48 |
| kristianpaul | what is you cmdline.txt file?~ | 03:48 |
| kristianpaul | s/what is/how look | 03:48 |
| xiangfu | new kernel don't needs cmdline.txt | 03:48 |
| kristianpaul | hum.. | 03:49 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul, http://www.milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Linux#boot_OpenWrt | 03:49 |
| kristianpaul | oh | 03:49 |
| xiangfu | maybe buildin commandline. not check the detail | 03:49 |
| kristianpaul | okay i'll format my memcard and try again | 03:49 |
| kristianpaul | hum, i think i'll hardcode that neboot to my home net or end adding a second interface.. | 03:55 |
| kristianpaul | :D | 04:16 |
| kristianpaul | wtf, why i cant do ls? | 04:17 |
| kristianpaul | hush: can't execute 'ls': Permission denied | 04:18 |
| kristianpaul | larsc: ? | 04:18 |
| Action: kristianpaul reads about xmodem | 04:28 | |
| kristianpaul | hum, is me or this busybox dont have rx command enable?.. | 04:33 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul, milkymist or openwrt :D | 05:31 |
| xiangfu | milkymist or nanonote | 05:32 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu, milkymist :) | 11:11 |
| Action: antoniodariush antoniodarisuh AKA `antonio` | 11:56 | |
| kilae | hi, is there a page about the future of the ben nanonote? | 12:04 |
| wolfspraul | the future is now :-) | 12:06 |
| wolfspraul | what do you mean? | 12:06 |
| wolfspraul | we collected all sorts of ideas for the hardware, here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ya_NanoNote_Specs | 12:07 |
| wolfspraul | but that's a very loose wishlist, just to check back once in a while | 12:07 |
| wolfspraul | your feedback is very welcome of course | 12:07 |
| kilae | thx, I mean milestones or something similar | 12:09 |
| wolfspraul | it's not very systematic, people work on various things | 12:10 |
| kilae | okay, and what's the process of a hardware update? | 12:16 |
| wolfspraul | there is no process, one day a set of features needs to emerge that makes sense | 12:18 |
| wolfspraul | for example I am currently working on the Milkymist One, and while that took many times longer than expected, it will take longer still :-) | 12:19 |
| wolfspraul | kilae: what are you trying to do or find out? | 12:19 |
| wolfspraul | do you have a Ben? are you waiting for the Ya - which features do you think the Ben should have that it doesn't have now? | 12:20 |
| kilae | no, but I want to find out whether it's worth! | 12:25 |
| wolfspraul | which one, the Ben NanoNote or something else? | 12:27 |
| wolfspraul | the Ben NanoNote was introduced in March 2010, and continues to sell and will continue to sell | 12:28 |
| wolfspraul | it's a great device, imo. of course because I worked so hard on it :-) | 12:28 |
| wolfspraul | for me I make a new device, say 'successor', when I believe I can make something truly better | 12:28 |
| kilae | thanks for the infos | 12:32 |
| wolfspraul | kilae: what do you want to do with the NanoNote? | 12:33 |
| wolfspraul | and what are you comparing it to? | 12:33 |
| antoniodariush | ac | 12:36 |
| kilae | wolfspraul: I have a freerunner and a dingoo, and I want to make a wireless linux device | 12:37 |
| antoniodariush | sorry ignore that | 12:37 |
| wolfspraul | freerunner too, wow | 12:38 |
| kyak | i heard about problems with "g" letter on new Bens. But here i have an opposite problem - the "g" is not sensitive enough on an older Ben | 15:25 |
| kyak | it wasn't always like this | 15:25 |
| kyak | i waited several weeks for this problem to disappear, but it wouldn't | 15:26 |
| kyak | (of course i used Ben during this time) | 15:26 |
| kyak | it's really annoying, what can i do? | 15:26 |
| wpwrak_ | kyak: maybe put a bit of paper under the G button ? | 15:31 |
| wpwrak_ | that would reduce the distance it has to travel | 15:32 |
| wpwrak_ | but in general it probably means the dome is damaged | 15:32 |
| kyak | wpwrak_: hm, piece of paper, i'll try that! | 16:07 |
| kyak | (dome damaged) could be, i'm not very gentle with my electronic devices | 16:07 |
| rjeffries | interesting: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/08/17/could-a-crypto-computer-in-your-pocket-replace-all-passwords/ | 16:45 |
| qi-bot | The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08232011-1417/ | 18:05 |
| rjeffries | wpwrak how similar (or not...) is ATmega 128RFA1 to what you designed into ATben and ATusb modules? | 21:03 |
| rjeffries | http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_parameters.asp?category_id=163&family_id=676&subfamily_id=2124&part_id=4692&ListAllAttributes=1 | 21:03 |
| rjeffries | huge chart of the 20 different versions of Xbee modules... http://www.digi.com/pdf/chart_xbee_rf_features.pdf | 21:05 |
| rjeffries | tuxbrain fyi Zigduinio does not use an xbee module. It uses the Amtel ATmega128RFA1 | 21:06 |
| wpwrak | the atmega128rfa1 has the same transceiver as atben/atusb. the MCU has four times the flash and 16 times the RAM. lacks USB, though. | 21:08 |
| wpwrak | if you want to run complex software (such as contiki) inside the MCU, then it's a good choice. | 21:09 |
| wpwrak | if you need USB and try to keep the firmware lean, then the atmega32u2 is the better choice :) | 21:10 |
| wpwrak | (xbee) if i rememeber right, most of these are antenna connection variations. if you're not afraid of briefly using a soldering iron, you can have about four such variants per board. (the original design just leaves the antenna connection choice open) | 21:14 |
| --- Thu Aug 25 2011 | 00:00 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!