#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-08-24

wolfspraulI use trademarks (tm)00:00
wolfspraulfeel super happy about it00:00
wolfspraulif someone wants to bully me, go ahead. would be the same (even more likely) if it were registered.00:00
wolfspraulI should have done this from the beginning, would have easily saved me 5000 USD or so.00:01
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: logo/corners.fig: some clarifications here as well (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6f479af00:02
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:wernermisc (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c34078800:02
wolfspraulthey are building the system of registrations up more and more btw00:03
wolfspraulno matter how rotten it is, and how companies ignore it in real life00:03
wolfspraulMadrid protocol, community designs, etc.00:03
wolfspraullots of databases can be built00:03
wolfsprauland every record and modification can be billed00:03
wpwrakthree walls of text posted :)00:05
wpwrak(everything can be billed) hidden inflation :)00:06
wolfspraulyeah - walls - done. unregistered trademarks (tm) rule. :-)00:08
wpwraktrademarks, patents, "community designs" ... the things our lawmakers do for the apples of this world00:11
wpwraknext: dinner00:13
wolfspraulenjoy :-)00:13
wolfspraulhow is your flu btw?00:13
wpwrakslowly retreating. must be one of the bacterial variants. a virus would be gone after just a few days.00:14
rejonwpwrak, this is cool shit00:30
rejondidn't you have the SVG of the logo?00:30
rejonits in the slide deck00:30
rejonwpwrak, how can i edit this fig?00:30
rejoni want to get a simple toolchain setup for developers/artists00:30
rejonwith cad and solid modeling btw00:30
rejoni have a target in mind00:30
wpwrakrejon: (svg) naw, didn't even search for it (beyond checking if the link on the image led anywhere interesting)00:32
wpwrakrejon: (edit) with good old xfig :)00:32
rejonif we can make our toolchain useful for designers, we will be better off00:32
rejoni can get attention from these inkscape devs and more00:32
rejonright now people like matt and architects use autocad and some solid modeling tool like solidworks00:33
rejonanyway, next time wolfspraul and i meet, i want to go over the standard package and some of our basic tools00:33
rejonwe shouldn't just have internal tools for chips, but also for case design, etc00:33
rejonanyway, just some thoughts00:33
rejonbut is an area we can do 80-85%00:34
rejonwe can get the useful linux devs onto our projects if we phrase as design00:34
wpwrak(tools) yeah, i don't have much good stuff there either. i have a halfway decent if a little cryptic toolchain to go from kicad to pcb (all basically 2D)00:35
wpwrakfor 3D it's either scripts or (once, for the counterweight) heekscad00:35
rejoncan you document it?00:35
wpwrakeventually :) some parts still need changing00:36
wpwrake.g., the tool (sw and hw) for aligning the machine with the board needs revising. the old design was very sub-optimal and the hardware is coming apart these day00:37
wpwrakthe underlying magic of going from kicad to a pcb is basically here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atben/cam/mkmk00:38
wpwrakplus some makefiles, as usual. and of course the tools that do the actual number crunching00:38
wolfspraulrejon: nice, people seem to like your Ben logo (the character with circle around it) - see the inclusion in the bootscreen proposed by Andrea Bolognani on the list00:45
wolfspraulwpwrak: hey, you misunderstand 'registered trademark' in your mail00:51
wolfspraulif a trademark is not registered, that doesn't mean at all that it can be "ignored or ridiculed"00:51
wolfspraulyou fell for some propaganda of the legal profession00:51
wpwrakhmm, okay00:52
wolfspraultrademarks in all major jurisdiction are established and solidified through _USING_ them00:52
wolfspraulworst case if a case goes to court you need to demonstrate with a poll or so that people think of your product when they hear a certain expression00:52
wolfspraulthe system of 'registrations' was added later to simplify the dispute process00:52
wolfspraulbut it's completely broken (the registrations, not trademarks)00:53
wpwrakcan you license an unregistered trademark ?00:53
wolfspraulof course00:53
wolfspraultrademarks are coming from real life, they gain value by use and by how widely they are recognized00:53
wpwrakokay, then my statements need editing :)00:53
wolfspraulso for example if a company registers a trademark, but never uses it, it's nearly worthless00:53
wolfspraulat least that was the old idea00:53
wolfspraulof course lawyers want to do more and more registrations00:53
wolfspraulbecause they can charge fees :-)00:54
wolfspraullike I said, unregistered trademarks are identified with a little (tm) character00:54
wolfspraulthat's a 'normal' trademark00:54
wolfspraula company thinks it's their trademark00:54
wolfspraulregistered trademarks are identified with a (r)00:54
wolfspraulthe system of registrations was built on top of the idea of trademarks, so there are less disputes, or disputes can be settled more effectively00:55
wolfspraulbut it doesn't really work :-)00:55
wolfspraulbecause any large company will just take you to court and they will proove there that people think of their product, not yours00:55
wolfspraulbasically a registration sets a legal papertrail proactively00:56
wolfspraulso you have some starting documents when it goes to court00:56
wolfspraula lawyer I know worked on the contract between Ferrari and Ferrero for a while, he said it's a multi-hundred page long thing :-)00:57
wolfspraulso this is all taken very seriously in Western markets, and increasingly even in China00:57
wolfspraulso please, NanoNote, Qi, Sharism, Milkymist, are all trademarks00:58
wolfspraulall/most are unregistered00:58
wolfspraulso it's NanoNote (tm), not NanoNote (r)00:58
wolfspraulwpwrak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark01:00
wolfspraulno more need for walls01:00
wolfspraulok, some excerpt maybe "a trademark may be established through actual use in the marketplace, or through registration of the mark with the trademarks office"01:01
wolfspraul"In some jurisdictions, trademark rights can be established through either or both means. Certain jurisdictions generally do not recognize trademarks rights arising through use. "01:02
wolfspraulI could imagine that for example in China (with a very basic legal system anyway), bringing forward a trademark case for an unregistered trademark is completely hopeless, whereas bringing forward a trademark case for a registered trademark will at least create some activity01:03
wpwrak hmm, i see. okay, with unregistered trademarks, we still get make rule on their use ? the fine detail would be in the copying. (r) also includes similar. (tm) would be more fuzzy. but maybe that's something we can gloss over.01:06
wolfspraulof course, if you 'establish' your trademark through 'actual use in the marketplace', then it's still a trademark you own etc.01:08
wolfspraulyou overvalue the registration01:08
wolfspraulmaybe lawyer is your secret second hobby? :-)01:08
wolfspraulin fact in many jurisdictions you have to protect your trademark otherwise it ceases to exist as a trademark you own01:08
wpwraksome of the things on that wikipedia article suggest that (r) does give you more power than (tm). beyond merely establishing a paper trail.01:09
wolfspraulthat means you have to setup rules how others can or cannot use it, and you have to enforce those rules (again, depends heavily on jurisdiction)01:09
wolfspraulcertainly a lot of people are working in that direction01:09
wolfspraul(r) is good for (their) business01:09
wolfspraulbut as I described above it's also a trap. others will just trample over it, which I have seen first hand.01:10
wolfspraulthe lawyers will show up before you, behind you, left and right, and everybody will have an invoice in hand for you.01:10
wolfspraulso I prefer unregistered trademarks, let's call them original and true trademarks :-)01:10
wolfspraulestablished through use in the marketplace01:11
wolfsprauland hey, we have a fairly efficient domain name system too01:11
wolfspraulalthough it is slowly deteriorating with company top level domains for 500k USD etc.01:11
wolfspraulthe marking (tm) and (r) gives you a hint about what was the original way01:14
wpwrakyeah. so (r) is basically a legal snarl01:15
wolfspraulwell. every profession tries to grow their business :-)01:16
wolfspraulread the section on "well-known status" for a good laugh01:17
wolfspraulthe underlying ideas of trademarks are good imo. it's about avoiding confusion, product quality.01:18
wolfspraulcompanies should use them and protect them, and if there is a dispute take it to court01:19
wpwrakwhere all bets are off anyway01:19
wolfspraulthe court process should be individual, not automated. the attempt to automate it just creates hot air for nobodys good.01:19
wolfspraulseriously you can close all worldwide trademark registration office01:19
wolfspraula few thousand people would loose their jobs and could do something more valuable in society01:20
wolfspraulor maybe even a few ten thousand, who knows01:20
wolfspraulthe trademark system would even become more efficient and better from it01:20
wolfspraulmy opinion01:20
wolfsprauland we think that the 2000 USD registration fee for a USB vendor ID are bad :-)01:21
wolfspraulhey, how about a wiki based trademark system01:22
wolfspraulthe power of the people decides who wins01:22
wolfspraulall trademarks are registered and described there. word marks, graphical marks, which industry/product type, etc. etc.01:22
wpwrakyeah. dunno how much of an effective advantage (r) gives you. it's certainly no spell of unvulnerability.01:22
wolfspraulno totally not01:22
wolfspraul /* source inside */ - a true story01:23
wolfspraulfully registered, for 5+ years01:23
wolfspraulIntel doesn't care :-)01:23
wolfspraulyou registered it :-) if you believe this gives you some power, fine. here's what we demand from you now: A) B) C) D)01:23
wolfspraulyou have 3 days01:23
wolfspraulif you don't, then ... bla bla bla01:23
wpwrakwell, elphel vs. intel is extremely mismatched01:23
wolfspraulyes but it was a fully registered and used trademark01:24
wpwrakand it may cost intel a lot to actually win in court (and you, too)01:24
wolfspraulso what is the value of registration again?01:24
wpwrakdid elphel try to fight back ?01:24
wolfspraulthe registration process has all these levels "opposition phase" etc.01:24
wolfspraulbut it's all hot air01:24
wolfspraulno of course not01:24
wolfspraula 3 person family business01:24
wpwrakso you don't know. they ran at the first bark.01:24
wolfspraulthey have zero chance01:24
wolfspraultheir mistakes were two:01:25
wpwrakyou don't know. maybe intel would find it more efficient to just buy the registered trademark.01:25
wolfspraula) believe in the registration (waste of money, very little actual legal value, of course the lawyers won't tell you)01:25
wolfspraulb) not see the 'inside' monopolization earlier, they should have just stayed away from it on their own initiative01:25
wpwrakyes, b) is bad. they took a risk.01:26
wolfspraulcorrect. they are from the industry.01:26
wolfspraulwhen they registered it, they surely knew "intel inside"01:26
wolfspraulof course they believed in the registration process01:26
wolfspraulbut it's just a fake process :-)01:26
wolfspraulit doesn't mean anything01:26
wolfspraulIntel will not take their dispute to the trademark office, why should they.01:27
wolfspraulit's a useless paper pushing office01:27
wolfspraulclose it01:27
wolfspraulno harm, no loss01:27
wolfspraulthe idea of trademarks is not to monopolize words, but to not allow one company to piggypack their business on another company, by confusing consumers about who is who01:30
wolfsprauldisputes are best handled case by case, either directly between businesses, or in court01:30
wolfspraulso the best way imo is to use trademarks established through actual use in the marketplace, and identified with (tm) when possible01:30
wpwrakyes, the obvious "correct use" would be fake products. the problem seems to be in the concept of similarity or confusion of the customer being applied way too liberally01:32
wpwrakfake products in the sense of a wholesale copy of an exiting product or creating a fake product. e.g., an Apple iTV (if that doesn't exist yet)01:35
wolfspraulto be fair to the big corps, when you introduce a new global product/brand, it is nearly impossible to not step onto some small guy somewhere01:37
wolfspraulI believe there was a fairly big company using 'iPad' in Japan, for a point-of-sales system or so. Fujitsu? something like that01:37
wolfspraulbut what can Apple do01:37
wolfspraula separate name for Japan?01:38
wolfspraulso they just move forward, and take the heat01:38
wolfspraulin the case of Fujitsu (or whoever it was), they 'settled' :-)01:38
wolfspraulout of court of course, in private01:38
wolfspraulthe trademark was registered (in Japan), was in actual use, was backed by a large company01:39
wolfspraulbut in the end it still had to give way, and I think actually it's better for everybody01:39
wolfspraulimagine the iPad being called jPad in Japan01:39
wolfspraulnot good01:39
wolfspraulalso you can imagine hundreds of smart guys to register iWhatever now in hopes of striking gold one day01:40
wolfspraulwhich they won't ;-)01:40
wolfspraulthey will get a nice nastygram though01:40
wpwraksome may still try. particularly trolls who are lawyers themselves have a bit of an advantage there.01:56
kristianpaulhum, kcryptd ca be a little cpu eating.. i wonder how it can behave on a theorically encrypted fs on the nanonote :-)02:29
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: pem update to 0.7.9 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1aac94103:35
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/77c55db03:35
kristianpaulhum smart is ok, wonder what hapened to the hardisk last night..03:46
kristianpaulxiangfu: had you sucefull boot linux on your M1 rihght?03:47
xiangfukristianpaul,  yes03:48
kristianpaulwhat is you cmdline.txt file?~03:48
kristianpauls/what is/how look03:48
xiangfunew kernel don't needs cmdline.txt03:48
xiangfukristianpaul, http://www.milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Linux#boot_OpenWrt03:49
xiangfumaybe buildin commandline. not check the detail03:49
kristianpaulokay i'll format my memcard and try again03:49
kristianpaulhum, i think i'll hardcode that neboot to my home net or end adding a second interface..03:55
kristianpaulwtf, why i cant do ls?04:17
kristianpaulhush: can't execute 'ls': Permission denied04:18
kristianpaullarsc: ?04:18
Action: kristianpaul reads about xmodem04:28
kristianpaulhum, is me or this busybox dont have rx command enable?..04:33
xiangfukristianpaul, milkymist or openwrt :D05:31
xiangfumilkymist or nanonote05:32
kristianpaulxiangfu, milkymist :)11:11
Action: antoniodariush antoniodarisuh AKA `antonio`11:56
kilaehi, is there a page about the future of the ben nanonote?12:04
wolfspraulthe future is now :-)12:06
wolfspraulwhat do you mean?12:06
wolfspraulwe collected all sorts of ideas for the hardware, here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ya_NanoNote_Specs12:07
wolfspraulbut that's a very loose wishlist, just to check back once in a while12:07
wolfspraulyour feedback is very welcome of course12:07
kilaethx, I mean milestones or something similar12:09
wolfspraulit's not very systematic, people work on various things12:10
kilaeokay, and what's the process of a hardware update?12:16
wolfspraulthere is no process, one day a set of features needs to emerge that makes sense12:18
wolfspraulfor example I am currently working on the Milkymist One, and while that took many times longer than expected, it will take longer still :-)12:19
wolfspraulkilae: what are you trying to do or find out?12:19
wolfsprauldo you have a Ben? are you waiting for the Ya - which features do you think the Ben should have that it doesn't have now?12:20
kilaeno, but I want to find out whether it's worth!12:25
wolfspraulwhich one, the Ben NanoNote or something else?12:27
wolfspraulthe Ben NanoNote was introduced in March 2010, and continues to sell and will continue to sell12:28
wolfspraulit's a great device, imo. of course because I worked so hard on it :-)12:28
wolfspraulfor me I make a new device, say 'successor', when I believe I can make something truly better12:28
kilaethanks for the infos12:32
wolfspraulkilae: what do you want to do with the NanoNote?12:33
wolfsprauland what are you comparing it to?12:33
kilaewolfspraul: I have a freerunner and a dingoo, and I want to make a wireless linux device12:37
antoniodariushsorry ignore that12:37
wolfspraulfreerunner too, wow12:38
kyaki heard about problems with "g" letter on new Bens. But here i have an opposite problem - the "g" is not sensitive enough on an older Ben15:25
kyakit wasn't always like this15:25
kyaki waited several weeks for this problem to disappear, but it wouldn't15:26
kyak(of course i used Ben during this time)15:26
kyakit's really annoying, what can i do?15:26
wpwrak_kyak: maybe put a bit of paper under the G button ?15:31
wpwrak_that would reduce the distance it has to travel15:32
wpwrak_but in general it probably means the dome is damaged15:32
kyakwpwrak_: hm, piece of paper, i'll try that!16:07
kyak(dome damaged) could be, i'm not very gentle with my electronic devices16:07
rjeffriesinteresting: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/08/17/could-a-crypto-computer-in-your-pocket-replace-all-passwords/16:45
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08232011-1417/18:05
rjeffrieswpwrak how similar (or not...) is ATmega 128RFA1 to what you designed into ATben and ATusb modules?21:03
rjeffries huge chart of the 20 different versions of Xbee modules...    http://www.digi.com/pdf/chart_xbee_rf_features.pdf 21:05
rjeffriestuxbrain fyi Zigduinio does not use an xbee module. It uses the Amtel ATmega128RFA121:06
wpwrakthe atmega128rfa1 has the same transceiver as atben/atusb. the MCU has four times the flash and 16 times the RAM. lacks USB, though.21:08
wpwrakif you want to run complex software (such as contiki) inside the MCU, then it's a good choice.21:09
wpwrakif you need USB and try to keep the firmware lean, then the atmega32u2 is the better choice :)21:10
wpwrak(xbee) if i rememeber right, most of these are antenna connection variations. if you're not afraid of briefly using a soldering iron, you can have about four such variants per board. (the original design just leaves the antenna connection choice open)21:14
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