#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-08-14

kristianpaulDocScrutinizer2: any inresting update from ccc camp?01:51
kristianpauldue lekernel  i think kit soom, i dont know who else ask for..01:52
kristianpaulupdate related with copyleft hardware i think, or something you want to share/feed back us? :-)01:52
kristianpauloh, roh is there too isnt?01:52
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer2: btw ho was the milkymst talk, you met sebastien finally? :)01:53
kristianpaulhttp://bit.ly/atYIXd 02:02
kristianpaulZYNQ 7000 Series FGPA :D..02:03
kristianpauloh well.. hope this get to market some day ;)02:04
kristianpaulnice minute 6:38, i finally see a real world use for a multitouch big display 02:07
kristianpaulhum did i heard well that "differ" (if i hear well) is a new propietary language from xilinx?.. :/02:14
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved qfn.fpd and qfp.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/4265fc103:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: nxuart/nxuart.pro: updated for move of qfn.fpd (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/437eafe03:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Updated profiles (atben, atusb, atusb-sil, cntr) for move of qfn.fpd and qfp.fpd (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7a8ca1b03:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved qfn.fpd and qfp.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f21fdf603:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: BOOKSHELF (AN068, pcbcng): "Adapting TI LPRF Reference Designs for Layer Stacking" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/71aacb103:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved atmega8u2, c8051f320, c8051f326 symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/4ade85b04:26
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Updated profiles (atusb, atusb-sil, cntr) for move of MCU symbols (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e87ad0804:26
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved atmega8u2, c8051f320, c8051f326 symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/42bf0f504:26
kyakbartbes: check out the /quote memoserv help04:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/components.pro: removed unnecessary .lib extension in file names (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/7103b4b05:49
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved atmega48-mmu symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/fd7d74a05:49
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: nxuart/nxuart.pro: updated for move of atmega48-mmu symbol (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/a4ca38005:49
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved atmega48-mmu symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/d16acb605:49
wpwrakinteresting, background of the legal construct (sort of a EU-wide trademark/patent on design) used in the apple vs. samsung dispute: http://www.osnews.com/story/25056/The_Community_Design_and_you_Thought_the_USPTO_Was_Bad05:53
wpwrak(commits) grmbl. that's of course from ben-blinkenlights to kicad-libs. damn copy & paste :-(05:53
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved atmega48-mmu symbol from ben-blinkenlights to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/9bb36e605:55
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:ben-blinkenlights (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/70ca7a505:55
wpwrakhehe, git rebase rules :)05:56
wpwrakwolfspraul: did you see this one ? http://www.osnews.com/story/25056/The_Community_Design_and_you_Thought_the_USPTO_Was_Bad06:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved mini-usb.fpd and usb_a_plug_smt.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/39c7ee706:09
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Updated profiles (atusb, atusb-sil, cntr) for move of usb_a_plug_smt.fpd (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c699a9206:09
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved mini-usb.fpd and usb_a_plug_smt.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/0f26c5706:09
wolfspraulwpwrak: I knew about this before06:11
wolfspraullegal systems in the entire world contain numerous opportunities to 'do evil'06:12
wolfsprauljust throw money at it, use the system06:12
wolfspraulthe morale low is on Apple's side, clearly, to be so greedy and selfish to abuse the weaknesses of the legal system in a shameless way, and suck energy away from more relevant use of legal resources06:13
wolfspraulwell, but what can I say. I bought my last Apple product over 3 years ago and will not buy another one until they are near bankrupt again.06:13
wolfspraulit speaks volumes for Apple to be doing this kind of thing06:14
wolfspraulon the other hand it's probably true that Samsung engineers were told in mass 'just copy the ipad', but to abuse the legal system in this way is still a bad thing in and of itself, and unexcusable06:16
wolfspraulgood thing we don't do that kind of stuff :-)06:16
wpwrakyeah. i find the automatism this legal construct creates or getting a preliminary injunction disturbing, though. it basically removes all safeguards from this potent instrument.06:19
wpwraks/or/for/06:19
wolfspraulwell like I said. normally you expect this kind of tricks to be used by sleazy used car salesmen that are regularly ripping off 90% of their customers06:19
wolfspraulor by failed businessmen of all kinds06:19
wolfspraulif Apple does it - very bad sign for Apple06:20
wolfspraulI've had the unfortunate opportunity to be the target of this kind of tricks in Germany myself, in the wild dot com days in Germany06:20
wpwrakyeah, but who of the lawmakers have been sleeping on the job ? it's not just about apple. anyone can play.06:20
wolfspraulthere are ways to counter it, but they are equally bad06:20
wolfsprauland the legal system being slow, they don't really clean up either (make their system more efficient)06:20
wolfspraulwell, the reality is that many may not care about the whole big thing06:21
wolfsprauljust about their job and how to advance to the next one :-)06:21
wolfspraulthe responsibility is fully on Apple's side06:22
wolfsprauland I do think it will have a sales impact, I saw lots of comments on blogs in that direction06:22
wolfspraulbuy Samsung in solidarity etc.06:22
wpwraki wonder. the division between pro-apple and anti-apple seems pretty clear :)06:23
wolfspraulit's a morale low, that's all06:23
wpwrakbut samsung may get customers who would have bought from other non-apple06:23
wolfspraulimagine a bribe situation. some senator/congressman getting bribed for a vote.06:24
wpwrakyeah, pretty, but rotten to the core06:24
wolfspraulit's a big difference whether the money is coming from some small sleazy shop, or from a global corporation like Apple06:24
wolfspraulthe latter is just bad, Apple badly fails on the responsibility they have given their size and power06:24
wolfspraulmaybe they should be split into 100 mini-Apples06:24
wolfspraulbut not with another failed goverment action like back in the Microsoft days...06:25
wolfspraulwe'll get over this. Apple is now the #1 most valuable company in the world. It can only go down from here :-)06:25
wpwrakyeah :)06:25
wpwrakpity the folks who broke at&t down into baby-bells are probably all dead now. back then, they still had balls.06:27
wolfspraulthe difference is that back then people were trapped into the one telco they had to go to for service06:30
wolfspraulwhereas apple products are chosen in a free and competitive way06:30
wolfspraulso there simply need to be better alternatives, and then it will take its natural course06:31
wolfspraulat their size it will be harder to manage, come out with good products, satisfy the demands of the shareholders, etc.06:31
wpwrakfree and competitive with monopolies like patents or that community design ? :)06:31
wolfspraulas you can see in this legal action that will clearly backfire06:32
wpwrakapple's always been on the lawsuit-happy side. remember "look and feel" ? it's the same all over again, just with more bendable laws06:33
wolfspraulfair enough. but our vote is clear already.06:33
wpwrakyeah :)06:33
wolfspraulthe only true path out and forward are new innovative products, that really work, are really easy to use, get people excited, etc.06:33
wolfsprauleverything else is a distraction06:33
wolfspraulI remember I went to a anti-patent demonstration once in front of the EPA in Munich06:34
wpwrak;-)06:34
wolfspraulI wanted to feel how that is. Once and never again.06:34
wolfspraulit's not my thing. I retreat, work on a better product. That will always find its way.06:34
wolfspraullike drugs are finding their way :-)06:34
wolfspraullegal or illegal06:34
wolfspraulif there is demand, there is a way06:34
wpwrakit seems that, if you don't have a credible threat of torching the place you're protesting against, nobody will care06:34
wolfspraulI had to do it once, and I did.06:35
wolfspraulbut it's not my thing, maybe others, ok all fine06:35
wolfspraulmaybe they end up in a full-time position at the EPA eventually :-)06:35
wolfspraulI have such a feeling :-)06:35
wpwrakoh dear :)06:35
wolfspraul"continue the reform from inside" (ahem)06:35
wolfspraulno?06:35
wpwraklike ex-hippies becoming neocons06:35
wolfspraulit's just my feeling. those systems are also not infinitely powerful. Apple made a bad decision, and they will pay for it.06:36
wolfspraulnot that they will notice anytime soon :-)06:36
wpwraki'm afraid this will also get a lot of anklebiters interested06:37
wolfspraulnot sure. normally when you are powerful, you do understand with it comes a lot of restraint.06:38
wpwrakno review, an automatic preliminary injunction, no prior art check, etc. sounds even better than snatching up patents06:38
wolfspraulany CEO of any even mid-size company could do a lot of harm if he would throw the company culture out the door and just go on a reckless path through society.06:38
wolfspraulwell, let's see06:39
wpwrakno, i mean design trolls, like the patent trolls we have now06:39
wolfspraulSamsung's lawyers are certainly doing triple-paid weekend hours over this as we speak06:39
wolfspraulApple just lowered the level, more like pimps fighting over hookers and streets they "own".06:39
wpwrakyeah, they're happy ;-)06:39
wolfspraulbut Samsung can go down to that level, I'm sure06:39
wolfspraul_every_ weapon can be turned around - you just have to think a little how...06:40
wpwraki think they just have to convince a judge that there is prior art. or at least seed enough doubt, to get the preliminary injunction revoked06:40
wpwrakwhat's worrying is that there's no defense against getting it slapped on you. samsung weren't even heard. it's all automatic.06:41
wpwrakand it's basically EU-wide. a mighty instrument06:41
wolfspraulwell let's see06:42
wpwrakas long as it's just big companies shelling each other, that's not so bad. they know of each other's moves and they have the stamina to survive a bit of bleeding06:42
wolfspraulthis is deep in German commercial and common law now, including ethical standards (sittenwidrig) etc.06:42
wolfspraulthere will be some explaining sessions about German law history in California soon, when the surprises pop up06:43
wpwrakyeah, i wonder if they will try to overturn that mechanism before it gains more widespread abuse06:43
wpwrak;-)06:43
wolfspraulit may quickly end up in a multi-billion USD payment Apple will need to make06:43
wolfspraulno this is not new06:43
wolfspraullet's hope Apple lawyers really thought this through, or maybe not hope so they learn it now :-)06:44
wpwraki don't see much risk for apple. they seem to have done everything by the book.06:44
wpwrakof course, they'll have to reimburse samsung if they lose06:44
wolfspraullet's see, I don't know06:45
wolfspraulin Germany and I believe the EU you could trademark many types of appearances for a long time06:45
wolfspraul3D shapes, colors, smells, etc.06:45
wpwrakyes, those things have been around forever06:45
wolfspraulso let's see how it goes now, I'm not a lawyer06:46
wpwrakwhat's new is that this one has zero review. neither at the time of issuing nor at the time it is enforced06:46
wolfspraulthat's just the pecularity of the process06:46
wolfspraulSamsung has already won in public opinion, now let's see how the winning and loosing continues, if we even find out about it (maybe it will be settled out of court)06:47
wolfspraulthe problem is Apple, nothing else. imho.06:47
wpwrakyeah, the good stuff is usually hidden06:47
wolfspraulthe process is just the process, and it won't change06:48
wolfspraulthose preliminary injunctions are a very important tool in Germany for a small guy to get a big guy to listen up06:48
wpwrakit seems a wonderful mechanism for anyone who wants to play dirty. submit a few doodles, pay the administrative fees. wait. pounce.06:48
wolfspraulso they finally stop ignoring all correspondence, including legal correspondence06:48
wolfspraulwell06:48
wolfspraulbut then it moves to the next level06:48
wpwrakeven if your victim would win, you can offer them a less expensive route. just like patent trolls do06:49
wolfspraullet's see, really06:49
wpwrakthe "good" thing about apple here is that they want to go much further. which means samsung has to fight back either way.06:49
wpwrak(german eV) yeah, i know them from gpl-violations :) of course, there, there was review by a judge. they were granted only when it was likely that a lawsuit would also go in the same direction, should it come to that06:51
wpwraks/eV/EV/, i think :)06:51
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved usb-a-pcb.fpd from f32xbase/c2usb to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/dc3baf507:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: c2usb/c2usb.pro: updated for usb-a-pcb.fpd move (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/b9bd71207:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved usb-a-pcb.fpd from f32xbase/c2usb to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/6d750ee07:05
wolfspraulwpwrak: if you expect to be dealing with rogue elements of society (aka "Apple"), there is a legal instrument called "Schutzschrift" http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzschrift07:10
wolfspraulthis page is not translated into English, but soon will I would think :-)07:10
wolfspraulthat's one legal tool against frivolous use of preliminary injunctions, and I'm sure there are other remedies as well07:11
wolfspraulgo Samsung!07:11
wpwrak(schutzschrift) yeah, but see the last paragraph in the section about germany. you have to know where you will be attacked, how, and apparently also by whom. sounds like a dubious means of protection.07:14
wolfspraulI think the court is clear here. location of court itself is not a random issue but the result of another complicated set of laws.07:16
wpwrakit does seem to make sense for the use suggested, when you get an "abmahnung" (hmm, "notice" in english ?), because then you know already two of the parameters07:16
wolfspraullet's just see where this goes07:16
wolfsprauland someone has to buy some valium for Apple lawyers too07:16
wpwrak(court) yes, but these laws often leave a lot of choices :)07:17
wolfspraulon a more serious side, I do believe that there were internal instructions at Samsung to copy the iPad07:17
wolfspraulit's just pretty obvious if you look at the product, software, box, etc.07:18
wolfspraulthat's not a good thing either, imo. I don't understand why a company like Samsung seems to need that.07:18
wolfspraulwho would want to copy the iPad?07:18
wpwrakdunno about the similarity. and yes, samsung doesn't need to do such things.07:18
wpwrakmaybe they decided, since apple will sue anyway, they may just make it obvious ;-)07:19
wpwrakwell, it could be an attempt at retaliation for the conflict over phones :)07:20
wolfspraulif they did copy it, Apple may have a chance in court07:20
wolfspraulif the lawyers put the two products side by side, including box etc. and it all looks the same - not good07:21
wpwrakyeah07:21
wpwrakdunno what samsung were thinking. maybe they just don't care.07:21
wolfspraulthat's like Nike coming out with a show that happens to have 3 stripes07:21
wolfspraulwon't work07:21
wolfsprauls/show/shoe/07:22
wpwrakmaybe they just want to overload apple's legal team. kinda like the us bankrupted the ussr :)07:23
wolfspraulthe use of the preliminary injunction is still frivolous, if you are Apple07:23
wolfspraulstart with a letter. if they did that and no response, ok, then that's the next step07:24
wolfspraulanother thing I'm wondering is this 'all EU' thing07:24
wpwrakdunno. i find much frivolity in a legal framework that allows such things to happen in the first place, though07:24
wolfspraulI think a lot of that actually doesn't work07:24
wolfspraulI highly doubt a French customs official will give much ado about a preliminary finding of a regional German court07:24
wpwrakdunno07:25
wolfspraulso this may only be 'all of EU' on paper07:25
wolfspraulif you want that enforced in reality, have fun dealing with another 10-20 jurisdictions07:25
wpwrakmaybe applicability of the community design and application of the preliminary injunction were confused in the "all of EU" 07:26
wpwrakwell, we'll see07:26
wolfsprauland judicative and executive are separate07:26
wolfspraulso you may hold a piece of paper in your hands, but the best use may still be as toilet paper :-)07:26
wolfspraulespecially in any EU legal matters07:26
wpwrakdunno. they probably do (know), though :)07:27
wpwrakbut yes, some threatening posturing on the side of apple would be quite normal in this situation07:27
wpwrakmake ambiguous claims that get mis-reported, making you seem stronger than you are07:27
wolfspraullet's see07:28
wolfspraulamazon.de07:28
wolfspraulstart close to home07:28
wolfspraulonly 1 (5 for wifi) in stock07:28
wolfspraulnot sure what this means07:29
wpwrakone samsung ?07:29
wolfspraulamazon.fr just says 'in stock' for the 3g model07:29
wolfspraulI'm wondering what actual impact this preliminary injunction has, besides the news07:30
wolfspraulit probably needs to be enforced separately even at German customs07:30
wolfspraullet alone other EU customs07:30
wpwrakit doesn't seem to affect stock already delivered to resellers07:30
wolfspraulyeah don't know07:31
wpwraki think it's specifically against samsung. not the produce per se.07:31
wpwraks/produce/product/07:31
wpwrakof course, maybe apple have already files requests for a hundred more preliminary injunctions. now that pandora's box is wide open ... :)07:32
wolfspraulI doubt it. you see this too technical.07:34
wolfspraulI hope we find out how this one continues...07:35
wpwrakyeah, promises to be fun :)07:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved mini_usb_b and usb_a_plug symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/886a0af07:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Updated profiles (atusb, atusb-sil, cntr) for move of USB symbols (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b401a5307:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved mini_usb_b and usb_a_plug symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletions) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f06306f07:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved sot-323.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/a8d0c4007:51
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cntr/cntr.pro: removed no longer used footprint sot-323 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/2b21cd207:51
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved sot-323.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/89fdfc907:51
viricwpwrak: can you run pppd over the at wireless link or something like that?07:58
wpwrakviric: hmm, i suppose you could, with a bit of extra work. but with dirtpan, you already have point-to-point IPv408:01
wpwrakno address auto-configuration, though08:01
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved ssop.fpd from f32xbase/c2usb to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/74980e308:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: c2usb/c2usb.pro: updated for move of ssop.fpd to kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/619f4c808:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved ssop.fpd from f32xbase/c2usb to kicad-libs (deletions) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/405a0c808:05
LunaVoraxHi everyone !10:30
wolfspraulLunaVorax: hi10:49
LunaVoraxHow are you doing wolfspraul ? :)10:53
wolfspraulgood thanks, working hard and learning a lot10:56
wolfspraul:-)10:56
viricwpwrak: ok11:02
LunaVoraxHum I think the newsletter got an error11:02
LunaVorax"slow fidelity on the freedom channel"11:02
LunaVoraxWouldn't it be "show fidelity on the freedom channel" ?11:03
wolfspraulLunaVorax: :-)11:11
wolfspraulno, slow fidelity11:11
LunaVoraxOh, I don't know that expression11:13
LunaVoraxwolfspraul, what does it means basically ?11:14
wolfspraulLunaVorax: no expression, it's a new creation. slow + fidelity11:20
LunaVorax...11:23
LunaVoraxOk ?11:23
LunaVoraxI'm translating the newsletter into French so11:23
LunaVoraxI don't know..11:23
LunaVoraxhow..11:23
LunaVorax...11:23
wolfsprauloh nice - thanks for the translation11:25
wolfspraulwell just translate it word by word for that line11:25
wolfspraulit's like translating a poem, you can just do word by word, or you understand it in some way and make a totally new creation in French11:26
lekernel"fidélité lente"?11:29
lekerneldoesn't sound very poetic :-P11:29
wolfspraulthere's a slow food movement11:29
lekernelwhat does that mean anyway?11:29
wolfspraulslowfi11:30
wolfspraulslow fidelity11:30
wolfspraulthe 802.15.4 is slower than wifi11:30
wolfspraulwifi, slowfi11:30
wolfspraultranslate as you like, or just remove that entire line :-)11:31
LunaVoraxwolfspraul, it's even harder for me as I try to avoid every anglicisms and use genuine french words.11:55
LunaVoraxLike "courriel" instead of "email"11:55
wolfspraulLunaVorax: well, but that means you can go all free. why even be worried about accuracy? It depends on how you see your value as translator.12:14
wolfspraulyou just read the original, feel/understand something, and make an authentic re-narration in French :-)12:15
LunaVoraxwolfspraul, can do12:50
wolfspraul:-)12:50
lekernelLunaVorax, are you from quebec? :)12:53
LunaVoraxlekernel, nope12:53
LunaVoraxlekernel, you are ?12:54
lekernel"la dernière génération de chevaux de troie et de vers ouvre des portes dérobées dans votre ordinateur, qui sont ensuite utilisées pour polluposter"12:55
LunaVoraxMmh yeah ?12:55
wolfspraulLunaVorax: btw, let me just say it again - I think it's truly wonderful, almost magic, that you take the time and translate the news. THANK YOU!13:08
wolfspraulreaching out and building an audience that trusts what we have to say takes time, and your translation work helps a lot with that.13:08
LunaVoraxHahaha13:08
wolfspraulyes! It's that good!13:08
LunaVoraxMy pleasure, I believe in Qi-hw13:08
wolfspraul:-)13:08
wolfspraulI just wish we can make more powerful and cheaper and more open hardware faster.13:09
wolfsprauloh well13:09
wolfspraulso much for SLOW fidelity :-)13:10
LunaVoraxwolfspraul, just bring the Open Lase to life13:11
LunaVorax;)13:11
LunaVoraxI'll be ready to pay $1000 for it13:11
LunaVoraxMaybe not everyone hehe, but I'm sure it would be one of Qi's best innovation13:12
LunaVoraxThe Nanonote also is a revolution but it needs more docs and software. It'll come slowly13:12
wolfspraulOpenLase, sure, but it's a lot of work. don't underestimate.13:14
LunaVoraxwolfspraul, I don't, I'm waiting13:14
wolfspraulthe ball is on marcan's side right now, and I'm sure he will get to it, but it will take time.13:14
wolfspraulI added some of those parts to my sourcing agenda, always good to have some items buffered there, to learn about.13:15
LunaVoraxI'm confident, he contacted you about making thie OpenLase device, unlike regular hackers who wuld have let this thing die in his garage.13:15
wolfspraullasers, galvanometers, dichroic mirrors, etc.13:15
wolfspraulto be fair to that hacker, it's really very hard to take a hardware project from a prototype that works for oneself to something others can manufacture (let alone in quantity) and pass to more people13:20
wolfspraulnot only is it hard, but there isn't even any accepted checklist one could go through to reach that 'pass on' level13:20
wolfspraulthat's one of the main things we are learning about here and as you know tools like boom that are part of that are in very early stages yet13:21
wolfspraulit's not just boom, it's all sorts of things from standardized schematics, tools, notations for electrical values and units, kicad libraries, simulation, bom shopping lists and supply chain standardization, and so on13:23
wolfspraulI cannot blame the regular hacker for focusing on making one prototype work for themselves.13:23
wolfspraulhopefully we can create some incentives for people to go out and share and sell and make some money13:24
wolfspraulthat's the plan (as you know of course)...13:24
LunaVoraxwolfspraul, fr 50% done, small break14:07
LunaVoraxOk here we go again14:10
wpwrakphilosophy in the 20th century: they put out phrases like "the dichotomy of revised constructional hermeticism" that make you feel all the years you wasted at school learning latin were entirely insufficient and that any decent human being with even the least intellectual ambitions would have had taken ancient greek as well14:12
LunaVoraxI found the solution wpwrak 14:12
LunaVoraxI never learned latin ;)14:12
wpwrakphilosophy in the 21th centry: learn from marketing, acknowledge the principal objective of the obscure jargon their predecessors have developed, and simply do things like "slow fidelity on the freedom channel" :)14:13
wpwraks/21th/21st/14:13
LunaVoraxhaha14:13
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08132011-1123/14:16
kyak"Python packaging code not found." - what the hell does that mean?..14:18
wpwrakkyak: it means that you computer overlord calls upon its human servant, i.e., you, to do the searching for it ;-)14:22
wpwraks/you c/your c/14:22
LunaVoraxOH NO16:10
LunaVoraxDammit16:10
LunaVoraxI fucked up with the text editor16:10
LunaVoraxMy translation is destroyed...16:10
LunaVoraxmarcan, are you there ?16:16
jivsbartbes, i managed to compile those modules by using some guile path. but the guile binary itself still doesn;t run on Ben:-)18:35
Artyomhi kristianpaul19:22
kristianpaulhello Artyom 19:33
ArtyomHow is your success with namuru+osgps?19:33
kristianpauli founded two posible bugs19:34
kristianpaulin namuru19:34
kristianpaulosgps no updates yet19:34
kristianpaul(osgps) still pain for me to read the code..19:35
kristianpaulthe first bug is in the control register, ch1_prn_key_enable <= write & chip_select;19:36
Artyomoh, yes... osgps is very special... 19:36
kristianpaulwell i'm not sure if a bug but i a shared bus you may get not wanted to change enable register  when you access register 0x10 of another slave19:37
viric"founded two possible bugs :)"19:37
kristianpaulthe second well, is a guess for now but some use of combinational logic with sequencial logic in some parts of the code, i need to check that may be replace syncronous logic..19:39
kristianpaulis a guess, as i was told not to abuse of xilinx xst for async..19:40
kristianpaulviric: ;)19:40
kristianpaulArtyom: and i'm reimplemeting control and status, i a no namuru way ;)19:41
kristianpaulArtyom: what about you?19:41
ArtyomI've spent couple of weeks on osgps... I've striped the code and left only tracking loops. I also added two accumulators (like in namuru) and changed tracking loops according to my models... Everything worked on PC. But in hardware tracking doesn't work :( Acquisition works fine - I've checked it. So now I will start to strugle with FPGA+namuru and mcu...19:42
kristianpaulArtyom: founded a better way to implement a pull-in algorythm than taking the snipet from osgps? :)19:42
kristianpaulArtyom: ah, you still using namuru, thats good :)19:43
ArtyomI prefer to use code that I understand :) And I think that my models should work better - but they demand more computational power...19:43
kristianpaulwait second, you added accumulators in osgps, so what is namuru for then?19:43
kristianpaul(code that understand) yeah, i think all agree with that19:44
Artyomosgps - is for checking algorithms on PC - it's much easier. And namuru is for hardware-board...19:45
kristianpaulah, ok you working on parallel19:45
ArtyomThere is still one difference that bother me... (between PC-program and hardware). 19:46
ArtyomThe time when new carrier-frequency and code-frequency are applied: on PC this is done immediately and in hardware there is an unpredictable delay (less then 1 ms)...19:47
kristianpaul(immediately) i tought osgps have a count-loop or something based on a system generic interrupt?, but yeah i always wondering how was it done in the code, never checked tought..19:50
ArtyomThere is interrupt emulation is osgps. There is endless loop and each cycle of this loop correspond to interrupt. At first correlations are counted and then interrupt is emulating by making a function-call19:53
kristianpaulwhy the hardware delay i unpredictable? is not that PROG_ACCUM_INT porpuse?20:00
kristianpaulbtw, had you recently measure this signals in a scope?20:00
kristianpaulthe accum int, tic_enable pre_tic_enable20:01
Artyombecause dumps-signal is async...20:01
Artyomyes, I measured accum_int last week20:02
kristianpaulthats a _posible_ bug ;)20:02
kristianpaulwhat was the period of it?20:02
Artyomnot async to system clock... But it's start is unpredictable. It depends on the time of arrival of the signal from satellite\20:03
ArtyomAnd I will check accum_int again, because I'm not sure that I catch each accum_int and don't miss any...20:05
kristianpaulbut you're able to get a TLM, TOW? just aftert acquisition and lost tracking?20:08
ArtyomTLM, TOW - you mean digital information from the signal?20:11
kristianpaulwell, i was wondering if tracking was partianlly working  at least to catch some bits of telemtry20:12
kristianpauli mean, had you visualized the accumlators over the time, just to see if you can visually indentify some chips?20:13
kristianpaul(if sound logical what i'm asking ;-))20:14
Artyomno, tracking doesn't work at all in hardware :( To get digital data PLL must work.)20:14
kristianpauland same situation but in osgps?20:15
ArtyomYes, I understand what are you talking about. I tried to see correlators output - nothing was seen :(20:15
kristianpauli always wondered how this pic was generated http://home.earthlink.net/~cwkelley/receiv3.gif20:15
ArtyomOn PC - everything is fine. I can see bits20:16
kristianpauloh, cool !20:16
ArtyomOh, yes - I've approximately the same pictures20:16
kristianpaulhow you ploted it?20:16
kristianpaulah, from akos code?20:17
kristianpaulor osgps it self? :)20:17
kristianpauloh, this very odd, i have to reflash my mm1 twice to make it boot again......20:18
ArtyomI just wrote in file correlators output and then plotted data in scilab (just a few code lines)20:18
kristianpaulbut i was botting okay on friday..20:18
kristianpaulyes, i just cant plot yet with octave ;) (basically my lasyness to do implement it..)20:19
Artyombtw why did you choose octave (not scilab for example)?20:22
kristianpauldont know, akos code was written for matlab, so octave came to my mind..20:22
Artyomand one more question: what is the main clock in your namuru-code?20:22
kristianpaulclock from gps frontend20:23
kristianpaulactually the whole base banf core is clocked from that, and there is a small clock domain sync for the ACk signal, no more20:24
kristianpauls/banf/band20:24
ArtyomI have some doubts that it's correct...20:26
kristianpaulwell, i asked namutu developer and he insisted it should be that way20:27
kristianpaulactually if you remenber my first mail to you about asking th PCB was that i read in your maxim specs i can feed it with a 8Mhz clock20:28
kristianpauleasilly yo get from the FPGA20:28
Artyomthat correlator should be clocked with the gps front end clock?20:28
kristianpaulyes, i think i should20:28
kristianpaulwell, if your data is latched from the ADC out i dont see problem for not doing it..20:29
kristianpaulbut in my case i just dont know, so i just followed what the chip specs said :)20:30
kristianpauland sync all the correlator with same clock so i'm ensure sampled data is correct20:30
kristianpaulthats my theory :)20:30
kristianpaulbtw maxim already sent me 10 samples of their chip :) same you have i think20:31
kristianpaullet forward you a mail20:31
kristianpaulcheck your mail Artyom 20:33
ArtyomI just want to note the following:20:35
ArtyomImagine that you try to write new carrier-freq through (ch0_carr_nco)20:36
ArtyomBut at the same time carrier_nco tries to read the ch0_carr_nco value from20:37
ArtyomSo you try at the same time to write and to read from the same register20:37
ArtyomI don't think this is good...20:38
kristianpauloh, sorry Artyom 20:40
ArtyomSo I think that in FPGA main clock should be a correlator_clock multiplied by some value20:40
marcansigh, there is no saving him20:40
marcanuhm20:40
marcanwrong channel, heh20:40
marcanwhile I'm here though20:41
marcanLunaVorax: you pinged me, I think?20:41
Action: kristianpaul reads last minute backlog20:41
Artyomthen you can write to registers at one time and write to them at another time...20:42
LunaVoraxmarcan, yeah20:43
kristianpaulwrite and to read from the same register, yeah, for me is not a right implementation in namuru20:43
LunaVoraxBut I forgot what I wanted to say marcan 20:43
ArtyomAnd of coarse fpga-main-clock and front-end-clock must be synchronized... And if fpga-main-clock is a multiple of front-end clock then everything looks fine...20:43
LunaVoraxOh no I got it back20:43
LunaVoraxYou ever tried to make an old-school-ish game using openlase ?20:44
kristianpaulArtyom:  everything looks fine, yes, but you sample X time same data right?20:44
LunaVorax3D vectrex style20:44
kristianpaulArtyom: at least you alredy handle that in a hardware downcovertion? i mean doint decimation i should think.. may not, i'm not DSP guy :)20:45
Artyomno, I use each sample only once: because I use in accumulators an-enable-signal wich is X times less then fpga-systen-clock20:45
kristianpaulah okay20:45
marcanLunaVorax: no, but it's on my TODO list :)20:45
marcanwell, I did make a pong20:45
marcan(it's in the openlase repo, a few variants actually since I embedded it into the presentation)20:46
Artyomkristianpaul: it's time to leave for me. gn ;)20:47
kristianpaulArtyom: but then you asume by using the DCM as DFS, you are in sync with a main FPGA clock wich is..., i mean what is the clock that actually goes to your top module20:47
LunaVoraxmarcan, there's a big wall at my father's house (+5meters tall) which is waiting for some laser pong fun someday ;)20:48
kristianpaulArtyom: oh, okay, well rest !20:48
kristianpaulArtyom: i'll try yo catchup to 3 am today i'll see :)20:48
kristianpaultomorrow is holiday here, so no work20:48
ArtyomIn my case top module uses front-end-clocked multipleid by 5. You are lucky ;)20:49
kristianpaulwell, it depends as i implement whole SoC in the FPGA, you have a separate IC..20:49
marcanLunaVorax: :D20:54
wpwrakkristianpaul: btw, your GPS receiver runs from its own oscillator, right ? i.e., the clock doesn't come from the FPGA (?)20:59
kristianpaulwpwrak: yes, the whole gps base band core uses gps frontend clock21:00
wpwrakkristianpaul: btw2, find, p.p. found = encontrar; found, p.p. founded = fundar :-) "i founded" would therefore be "yo fundé"21:01
wpwrak(clock) prefect21:01
kristianpaullol21:01
kristianpauldamn i have problems with that word, is the second time you make fun of it ;)21:01
wpwraksometimes, the digital clocks aren't what those RF circuits want. i got bitten by that in atben ;-)21:01
wpwrakirregular verbs are always entertaining :)21:02
kristianpaulactually as i said, i sampled 10 MAX2769 and i think Artyom sent me some unpopulated boards (http://gnss-sdr.ru/index.php?itemid=10)21:05
kristianpaulwith the only objetive of provide clock from namuru it self21:05
wpwrakah, cool21:06
kristianpaulsomething i cant do with SiGe chip as it needs a specific numbered clock..21:06
kristianpaulwpwrak, what you think about about mutpling clock idea from Artyom?21:07
wpwrakto put conflicting accesses into different clock phases ? well, if you have conflicting accesses, that would be one way to handle it21:08
wpwrakotherwise, you also have approaches like reads on rising clock edge, writes on falling clock edge, or similar. depends on your design what works and what not21:08
kristianpaulabout your experience with atben and taking clock from Xburst SoC, well.. i asume mm1 SoC is not so complex enought to generate a non trusty clock reference clock21:13
kristianpaulmay be lekernel want to coment about the topic? 21:14
lekernelhuh?21:14
kristianpaullekernel: you will trust in a clock signal generated from a DCM/Own logic in order to make work an external ADC  for example?21:15
lekernelmm1 SoC is not so complex enought to generate a non trusty clock reference clock ????21:15
kristianpaullol21:15
wpwraki don't know what the clock problem really was. just that the beast produced quite a bit of phase noise. may be that the digital clock jittered. might be that the chip prefers sinusoidal clock signals.21:15
lekernelif it's properly generated and fed through the FPGA I/O buffer, yes21:16
lekernelyou need to use DDR output registers to do that correctly on spartan6 by the way21:16
wpwrakkristianpaul: it's more than the clock just being accurate. if it's you only clock source, then you're driving a PLL from it. so if the clock jitters, then the PLL will be distorted (a little)21:16
lekernelif you want a clean clock from a DCM21:17
kristianpaul(DRR) thanks, i'll keep in mind :) i even dint knew of that fetures, and who knows what else related...21:17
kristianpaulwpwrak: (Jitter) so you actually visualized it? or was the obviuos root case to your problems at that time, then switch to that  external clock was the sane path :)21:24
kristianpaulhe, i'll start using encounter verb from now21:27
wpwrakDocScrutinizer suggested that clock jitter may be responsible for the high noise floor i had observed and he suggested i add a local crystal. so i tried that and the noise went away :)21:33
kristianpaul:)21:33
wpwraki don't think my equipment is good enough to properly measure that clock. it's 16 MHz (rectangular) and my scope has an analog bandwidth of only 100 MHz (sine)21:34
wpwrak(measure) i mean the jitter. it's more than adequate for measuring the frequency, of course21:35
wpwrakand i'd need an active probe to see the actual analog signal. with a passive probe, the clock fails completely if i touch it21:36
kristianpaulsure sure21:39
DocScrutinizerpleased to hear23:56
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: how was the camp?23:58
DocScrutinizerfunny, but I'm actually too old for such nonsense23:58
DocScrutinizerdealing with cheap tents, wet sleeping bags, showers with 40 person queues, sunburn....23:59
DocScrutinizerglad to be back home :-)23:59
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