#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-08-07

wolfspraulrjeffries: how do you measure that the 'acceptance of NanoNote is low'?00:35
wolfspraulif I wouldn't be too lazy, I would look up all the hundreds of ways Steve Jobs ridiculed 'market share' over the years00:36
wolfspraulthe goal was to sell 3000 (no real time frame), we sold 1200-1300 so far.00:36
wolfspraulit is correct that the sales and marketing activity has hit a bump, but I find that a very interesting challenge00:37
wolfspraulat least a good challenge for me, I need to find and build alternative sales and marketing channels00:37
wolfspraulin your world view, if the NanoNote had sold 5000 units to date, would you also say 'acceptance is low'?00:38
wolfspraulI think the key challenge for copyleft harwdare is to build strong sales and marketing channels.00:38
wolfspraulnot lost interest in Ingenic at all, why?00:38
wolfspraulwe hat a lot of strange judging from the armchair again :-)00:39
wolfspraulI will probably demand 100k USD or 200k USD from Ingenic to sponsor the next Ingenic product, and they may very well never pay that. But that's their problem :-) I'm super 'interested' in their sponsorship :-)00:40
wolfsprauljust saying what's going through my mind lately00:41
wolfspraulfor mechanical, there are many ways that are at the same time:00:41
wolfspraula) very professional and modern looking, very innovative (on whatever angle)00:41
wolfspraulb) well suited for low volume (will always be important for copyleft hardware, even if we have some high volume products)00:41
wolfspraulc) cheap00:41
wolfspraulthat's the combination we need to find00:42
wolfspraulI would argue that what we have for m1 does quite well, on b) especially. c) can be worked on. a) is debatable but most people who see the case truly like it. I think it's a winner.00:42
wolfspraulthere may be other mechanical approaches that satisfy a) b) and c), for example milling aluminum00:43
wolfspraulwe just need to experiment more, as we did with m100:43
wolfspraulsimply looking at some random 'industry price lists' with high price tags doesn't get us any further I think. My goal is to make great cases that satisfy a) b) and c), at the same time.00:44
wolfspraulthis has a few nice pics http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/14/apple_details_new_macbook_manufacturing_process.html00:46
wolfspraulsounds like sie is going into a direction of simple breakout board00:49
wolfspraulthe biggest weakness of their entire approach is on the software side00:49
wolfspraulbasically they are incapable of even the smallest software development00:49
wolfspraulthat means they can only make boards that work with the vendor BSP as they get it00:50
wolfsprauland the vendor BSP may or may not go upstream, in most cases it won't (at least not in its original form, and after it has been modified they won't be able to get the upstream version to run on their board again)00:50
wolfspraulI tried to bridge this but failed.00:50
wolfspraulI am not interested in random boards being manually soldered together to work with a vendor BSP for a while. At least for them it doesn't matter how long the boards work because they will break soon, the students think at most in categories of 1 year, then they throw their project away as well.00:51
wolfspraulthe shortcomings kristianpaul found with his SIE will surely never be fixed :-)00:52
wolfspraulthat's not my approach at all, it's not how I think you can build products or a brand00:52
wolfspraulsparkfun has tons of interesting boards then, far better than the current board they soldered together00:52
wolfspraulkristianpaul: sorry that the SIE I sold you is a dead-end product00:53
wolfspraulI really hate that normally, but that was the choice of the designers and I am unable to correct it. An expensive lesson for me to learn "don't try to help academia" :-)00:53
wolfspraulshould not have done it, would have saved me 10-20k USD and one dead-end development less in my history00:54
kristianpauldead, no pronlem :) also you dint sold it actually i remenber... some expenses were shared actually00:57
wolfsprauloh you got one of Carlos early prototypes?00:58
wolfspraulthe main failure with SIE is that bugs are not fixed00:58
wolfspraulthat's where a company and a project part ways, imho00:58
wolfspraulbugs have to be fixed, next version improves. combine this with smart marketing and you may build a business.00:59
wolfspraulbut this is different. bugs are just ignored, removed, argued away. not good.00:59
wolfspraulof course they actually just need boards for students to play with, so if you think about their needs, it all makes sense01:00
wolfspraulthey are perfectly fine with boards that are buggy, break apart after a few months. 99% of the students will throw away their project and any related material (such as a board) on the same day they get the exam back that concludes that segment of their studies01:01
kristianpaulno no, run 3 i think..01:01
wolfspraulso for m1, what I like is how we improve everywhere, constantly. that needs to continue. I am already tring to max out what I can improve for rc4 :-)01:01
wolfspraulI wish we could throw more resources at improvements, but it depends on sales revenue, that's ok.01:02
kristianpaulroh: (apppleinsider) i think we found a nice aplication for your CNC ;)01:02
wolfspraulkristianpaul: can you still build new software for your sie?01:03
kristianpaulwolfspraul: abosultelly01:03
kristianpaulacutally i think i'll find a case for it and use it as signal generator01:04
wolfspraulwhich build environment do you use? (openwrt?) which kernel?01:04
kristianpaulopenwrt same as nanonote01:04
kristianpaulit jsut works01:04
wolfspraulare there any patches we could feed back?01:04
wolfspraulok that's good to hear!01:04
kristianpaulwell, i dont have i2c and have to disable keyboard01:04
wolfsprauldefinitely give us feedback if something breaks01:04
kristianpaulhaha ok01:04
wolfspraulwell that's what I care about. software power.01:05
kristianpaulpatches, yes, dont carlos buged you with patches before leave the list? ;-)01:05
kristianpauli think zrafa was working on i2c driver, not sure01:05
wolfspraulsome patches I saw were of such crazy quality that I don't think anybody cleaned them up yet01:05
kristianpaulhehe sure01:05
wolfspraulI mean those are not 'patches' really01:05
wolfspraulyou can also uuencode a binary that you got to run somehow :-)01:05
wolfspraulI was thinking about the price of m1 recently, and how we can bring it down.01:06
kristianpaulplease :)01:06
wolfspraulI don't think I can touch the 499 USD price of the current product, it just has all these expensive things in it that add up.01:07
wolfsprauland if I remove them I make it much less valuable for a non-technical user01:07
wolfspraulso I thought maybe we make a new board, just the bare chips on it that will still allow you to reuse (and develop) 90+% of the software01:07
wolfspraulno case, lots of ios, maybe geared towards dsp or rf as well. Sebastien mentioned some ideas at some time, but I need to ping his brain more.01:08
wolfspraulno accessories, no keyboard, remote, camera, anything.01:08
wolfsprauljust price down01:08
wolfsprauland still achieve full software compatibility with m1 the video synthesizer (with all its bells and whistles making it hard to go below 499 usd fast)01:09
wolfsprauljust thinking01:09
kristianpaulbare chips still the expensives ones, if i recal correctly chips related to very specific VJ stuff are not that expensive01:09
rjeffrwolfspraul that is an interesting approach01:09
wolfspraulmaybe something like xue01:09
kristianpaulor i'm wrong?01:09
wolfspraulwell of course we would leave the fpga, nor, ddr ram, etc.01:09
wolfspraulbut what is the point of the board?01:10
wolfspraul1) low price, shave off every USD we can01:10
wolfspraulno accessories, not even a power supply maybe01:10
akiwiguya reasonably cheap hacking platform?01:10
kristianpaulit seems01:10
rjeffriesdepned on what price point you can hit01:10
wolfspraul2) stay 100% compatible with the m1, that's the key to get you into a position where you have a strong environment around you, rather than getting stuck in a moon landscape01:10
kristianpaulnot vey specific, but i wonder if some people prefer something with unlimited posibilites or a specific turnkey product01:11
wolfspraul3) open the door for some future Milkymist products, by means of expansion header, ios, etc.01:11
rjeffrieswolfspraul some of your cost are ports that only are interesting for vjay use case01:11
akiwiguyi prefer something that i can do a lot of things with personally, even if it takes a bit of work to set up01:11
kristianpaulplease please dont forget add at least two dedicated pins for clock in the next expansion header if posible !!!01:11
akiwiguyrather than a solution that just works but only does a few things01:12
wolfspraulkristianpaul: no worries, your advice will be taken, guaranteed01:12
rjeffriesbefore you do this you need to figure out who will make USB work as a general USB and IMO make the 8:10 port usable and acessible from the edge of the board01:12
wolfspraulakiwiguy: of course that's what we all work towards with our crazy investments into 'upstream' and keep it all easily buildable from source etc.01:12
rjeffriesbut removing the items you mention does not rip out a lot of cost does it?01:13
wolfspraulI think about use case01:13
wolfsprauland it adds up01:13
rjeffrieskeyboard is $5 camera is maybe $25 p/w is another $5 max01:13
wolfspraulthe product I am making now works for non-technical users01:14
akiwiguyi think, if you had a board with just the FPGA and necessary stuff01:14
akiwiguywith no extras01:14
wolfspraulI can whole-heartedly recommend it to any non-technical user because all they need is in the box.01:14
akiwiguyand expansion headers for people to hack up addons for it to make it do what they want01:14
wolfspraulakiwiguy: well there are tons of boards, and we easily end up in the arena of subsidized marketing boards01:14
rjeffriesok. but if you can only hit $399 selling price with adequate margin to keep your children fed, the market is prolly still quite limited01:14
akiwiguyyou'd sell heaps of them01:14
wolfspraulrjeffries: you and your market :-) I do enjoy it with coffee though :-)01:15
wolfspraulakiwiguy: no, would not. you can try though :-)01:15
akiwiguybut there isnt much with the same amount of power of the Milkymist SoC01:15
rjeffriesakiwiguy be careful. not sure I see "heapsOf users who wnat an FPGA computer01:15
akiwiguyi mean01:15
wolfspraulthe devil, and all value, is only in the details01:15
akiwiguywhen the Linux kernel is running well on Milkymist01:16
rjeffrieswolfspraul I sometimes wonder what you are thinking. by the way you said market you meant margin01:16
wolfspraulthat's why a discussion of people who are just guessing is worthless01:16
kristianpaulrjeffries: (USB) it could, just we need a proper OHCI implementation, any volunteering around it? :-)01:16
akiwiguyit would be a great hacking platform for us Linux guys01:16
wolfspraulzoom in, try it out, and find out about the hidden elephant01:16
rjeffriesyou know very well that ther emust be a delta between what it costs you to build and what people pay you01:16
akiwiguyand the ability to just reflash your entire processor is a bonus xD01:16
wolfspraulakiwiguy: do you still want to buy your NanoNote?01:16
rjeffrieskristianpaul you know damnd well I am not a coder. 01:16
akiwiguyof course I od01:17
akiwiguyjust no money :/01:17
kristianpaulrjeffries: but you seems good with social skill, you can catch a developer in the wild :)01:17
akiwiguymy dad wants me to write some printing software for him in VB.net01:17
akiwiguyand if I do that I get $100nzd01:17
wolfspraulthat's a start01:17
rjeffriesone never knows, does one01:17
akiwiguybut ewww visual basic is horrible01:17
wolfsprauldo it, you learn about real customer needs01:18
wolfspraulREAL CUSTOMER NEEDS01:18
rjeffriesvisual nbasic is just another language01:18
rjeffriesno biggie01:18
wolfspraulsome people never get there, but it's actually a rewarding experience01:18
wolfspraulthey do have strange priorities, I can tell you :-)01:18
rjeffriesactaully it is reasonably powerful. no my cuppa, but nothing to sneer about01:18
akiwiguyi have had a look at it, and trying to get printing to work in it will be hell01:18
akiwiguyI use VB a lot myself01:18
wolfspraulmy first job was similar, a summer job to work on a melanoma (skin cancer) database for a doctor01:18
wolfspraulgot 100 deutschmark for 3 months work01:19
akiwiguywhen i have to write something fast01:19
akiwiguybut it's not a very nice language01:19
kristianpaulthats important akiwiguy (customer needs)m we tend to dream and dream, and inpose our desires on sofyware and forgot that we MUST solve a need01:19
wolfspraulserve your customer, make him happy01:19
akiwiguyworse than Java, IMO01:19
wolfspraulthen sell him the upgrade to the language you prefer :-)01:19
wolfspraul(it's your dad here, but the point is always the same)01:19
rjeffriesscrew it code it in VB and take the money and then do what you like01:19
akiwiguybut it'll be a lot of work01:20
akiwiguybecause there are no printer libraries01:20
akiwiguyi cant just tell it to print this on this position on the page01:21
kristianpaulwolfspraul: (xue) when you said that you mean formfactor/pinout and also the imaging part?01:21
wolfspraulprobably not01:21
wolfspraulI really don't know01:21
akiwiguyif i could do that the code would have been done last month xD01:21
wolfspraulmaybe we can make a list of 'things' one could theoretically hookup to Milkymist01:21
wolfspraulit would be long though01:21
wolfspraulthen we see that we can make a board that keeps the path to those 'things' open01:21
kristianpaulwell if there is free pinout :)01:22
wolfspraulimage sensor would be one of them, surely01:22
wolfspraulone of many though01:22
wolfspraulI am just thinking now, I can easily spend a lot more energy into m1.01:22
wolfsprauland improve it01:22
wolfspraulbut if we want to build a crazy cheap hacker board, that won't work because it conflicts with some needs (and valuations) of non-technical users that buy m101:23
kristianpaulMMU ;-) ?01:23
wolfspraulthat's a software feature01:23
wolfspraulif we build a milkymist hacker board, its value can only come from the milkymist software stack running on it, imho01:23
rjeffriesuntil someone adds MMU MM is not a viable Linux platform. period. nevermind that lekernel is not interetsed01:23
wolfspraul"viable Linux platform"01:24
wolfspraullet's just say you don't like it without mmu01:24
wolfspraulbut you would never buy one anyway, so why care? :-)01:24
kristianpaulis getting good shape rjeffries , you can run uclinuc, you can have a toolchain easilly, not bad01:25
kristianpaulalso openwrt is a strong basis it seems01:25
wolfspraulalso improvements in gcc (c++) or llvm badly needed01:25
wolfsprauldynamic linking01:25
rjeffrieskristianpaul for teh true belivers yes. but the lack of MMU will lead to any number of randowm crashes. this is not rocket science01:25
wolfspraulbut one by one, progress is really good lately01:25
wolfspraulkristianpaul: how often is your m1 crashing?01:26
kristianpaulrjeffries: buy it , use it, crash it and complaing with us later :-)01:26
kristianpaulwolfspraul: not often01:26
wolfspraulwhich root causes do you suspect?01:26
rjeffriesthat is notr the relevant question wolfspraul, and you know that. MM1 is running a very constraind set of apps. with linux you run all sorts of weird stuff, some of it with well hidden bugs01:27
kristianpaulhe, well in my case i had been the resposible for some crahses in part, as my HDL coding techniques are improving :)01:27
rjeffriesand you know I am not complaining. I am pointing to facts. 01:27
wolfspraul"no mmu" is a fact. "not a viable Linux platform" is not a fact.01:28
wolfspraulI estimate 80% of what you say is not a fact, but opinions built upon facts.01:28
kristianpaulwolfspraul: also i cant tell to much as i just run too very basic rtems stuff, flickernoise annd rendreing is a unknow world for me 01:28
wolfspraulbut it's your good right to have opinions, of course...01:29
rjeffrieswolfspraul should one assume all of your opinions are facts? ;)01:30
kristianpaulalso i think all those suposed crashed, are not well handled expenscion from the cpu, wishbone... you can wonder all the empties around that :)01:30
rjeffriesyou will get to find out if an FPGA based realtively expensive linux platform finds enough customers01:30
rjeffriesanyway, enough of this.01:30
akiwiguyI just had an idea.01:31
wolfspraulyou forgot "not viable" in there01:31
wolfspraul"relatively expensive not viable linux platform"01:31
wolfspraulI do enjoy my coffee today01:31
akiwiguyWhen Milkymist can run Linux well enough, why not a "netbook" type device, like a larger NanoNote, with the Milkymist SoC?01:31
wolfspraulYunnan, yummie :-)01:31
akiwiguyI would certainly buy one.01:32
wolfspraulwhat kind of use case do you want on a netbook?01:32
akiwiguyWeb browsing, word processing, video playback01:32
wolfspraulso the problem is most people want high performance01:33
wolfsprauleven when you say 'word processing', mayby you want to embed pictures from your camera?01:33
kristianpaullynx, vi and mplayer ;) (on busybox ;-D)01:33
wolfspraulthose pictures can be 10mb big?01:33
akiwiguyi dont have a camera xD01:33
wolfspraulyou want to 'quickly' adjust contrast & brightness, or do other 'auto' picture manipulation01:33
wolfspraulwell I'm just saying01:33
wolfspraulmany things are possible01:33
akiwiguyyeah, i get what you mean01:33
wolfspraulI don't understand the netbook use case, so I'm asking.01:33
wolfspraulon my notebook, I want power01:34
wolfspraulmemory, cpu01:34
wolfspraulcannot get enough01:34
wolfspraulI want to be able to work with images and videos faster.01:34
wolfsprauleven presentations/talks01:34
wolfspraulthe NanoNote on the other hand is a pocket computer01:34
larscand you want the battery to last longer than 10 minutes ;)01:34
wolfspraulI don't need high-performance, since i would simply move those things to my notebook.01:35
akiwiguyAll I use my netbook for is web browsing, word processing, video and audio playback and ssh01:35
wolfspraulso I can move all sorts of small interesting computing tasks to the nanonote.01:35
kristianpaul(battery) oh please :)01:35
Action: kristianpaul want a netbook with that qi pixel display :-)01:35
akiwiguyMy current netbook has a standard lcd and I can read it in the sun fine xD01:36
akiwiguyI walk around with this thing at school all say doing all my class work on it01:36
akiwiguyand I am quite often outside in the sun working on it01:36
rjeffrieskristianpaul for wahtever reasons, that interesting qi-pixek display seems to still not be designed in to anything significant. I do not know why.01:37
akiwiguypersonally i see no need for an e-ink display or anything similar when existing already in use tech works fine01:37
kristianpaulrjeffries: well, i worth that my battery will long last01:37
rjeffriesI carry a decentt little smartphone (not iPhone) with a 4-in. display. it has a nice slide out keyboard, nice screen. it works.01:38
wolfspraulrjeffries: maybe that is because their strategy is to come out with outlandish announcements and vaporware to attract (more) investors?01:38
rjeffriesakiwiguy with e.g. eink monochrome display one gets two weeks on one battery charge for a book reader e,g, Kindle01:38
akiwiguyFor stuff like an ebook reader, then an e-ink is good.01:39
wolfspraulakiwiguy: yes, screens are getting much better recently in terms of sunlight readability. I need to compare some...01:39
rjeffrieswolfspraul? well, I paid $149 with my carrier. the little company who made my device is called Motorola. You may have heard of them.01:39
kristianpaulmilkymist ebook? :)01:39
akiwiguyFor a netbook or similar, there's no point because you can't refresh them very fast01:40
rjeffrieskristianpaul you are cracking me up01:40
akiwiguyand they'd be useless for anything but reading01:40
kristianpaulrjeffries: hahah ;)01:40
wolfspraulrjeffries: I meant the "interesting qi-pixel display"01:40
rjeffriesakiwiguy google qi pixel display  thay have solved those problems in an elegant fashion01:40
wolfspraulyou are double cracking me up01:40
wolfsprauldidn't you just say above that "the interesting qi-pixel display seems to still not be designed in to anything significant"01:41
rjeffriesi am so totally lost01:41
wolfsprauland then you recommend to google it because they have "solved those problems in an elegant fashion"?01:41
wolfspraulmaybe you pick one of your two arguments?01:41
rjeffriesit has not found its market. I do not know why. maybe you do. the gal behind it is a very smart puppy an dthe technolgy is good01:41
rjeffrieswolfspraul the technology works and works well, it has not been commercialized sucessful. ok01:42
wolfspraulyou probably never met Mary-Lou, and it sounds like you never used one of their 'good' technology either? then how do you know it's good?01:42
wolfspraulhave you used one of those super screens?01:42
akiwiguytheir website is not loading01:42
rjeffrieswolfspraul people I trust have01:42
wolfspraulrjeffries: so you have not01:43
wolfspraulthat seems to be a fact01:43
akiwiguyi'm getting a blank page01:43
akiwiguyand the wikipedia page is unhelpful01:43
wolfspraulakiwiguy: it's vaporware. one word is enough.01:43
wolfspraulif seems your netbook maker has "solved this problem in an elegant fashion"01:44
rjeffriesi was wrong. Notion Ink does use it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi01:44
wolfspraulwhich is great!01:44
wolfspraulrjeffries: I won't ask whether you bought and tried a Notion Ink yet...01:44
wolfspraulit's amazing how much money you can make fooling naive investors though, I have to say01:45
rjeffrieswolfspraul you have a style that is different than mine01:45
wolfspraulthere's always someone who wants to believe01:45
rjeffrieslet's agree we do not think the same and leave it at that. ;)01:45
wolfspraulrjeffries: yes indeed. very different. unfortunately in the computer industry many companies work with announcements, in different ways.01:45
wolfspraulsometimes to asses demand01:45
wolfspraulsometimes to fool investors (ah, to get them to invest to then hopefully make that announcement dream come true)01:46
wolfsprauloh definitely, please! Not the same, yes.01:46
rjeffriesyou are  asmart guy. I respect that. You offer some very sage opinions, but also get out in the weeds01:46
wolfsprauljust I thought you like facts so much01:46
wolfspraulso the fact is that you never used a pixel qi screen yourself yet you are saying it is 'good technology' and 'solved a problem in an elegant fashion'01:47
Action: kristianpaul goes for a nice evening Tea01:47
rjeffriesyou can drop the condescending attitude01:47
wolfspraulthat is risky, in technology01:47
rjeffriesI have work to do. ;)01:47
GitHub194[milkymist] kristianpaul pushed 2 new commits to gps-sdr-testing: https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/compare/14055f8...67e3a3e01:50
GitHub194[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] missing overrun condition for the counter - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas01:50
GitHub194[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] namuru related bios commands WIP - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas01:50
wolfspraulrjeffries: read it after your work break if you like. this is a hardware project. you are very good at criticizing others and that is appreciated and valued. and I know you are serious.01:56
wolfspraulbut sometimes you have to take criticism too. Now, if you start with your duino boards, you will probably find that in hardware, the only thing that matters is to try something out in physical reality.01:56
wolfspraulseriously, that is the #1 #101:56
wolfspraul_every time_, you buy a chip, because you read about some great feature X01:56
wolfspraulafter you actually try it, you dive in, you find out 'ooops'. 'yes, they implemented X, but with the following caveat: ...'01:57
wolfspraulevery time. 100%. guaranteed.01:57
wolfspraulso a lot of the experienced people here simply work features backwards. have you tried it? does it work? if yes: feature exists. if no: we know nothing until we tried01:58
kristianpaulwho dont love caveats ;-)01:58
wolfspraulthat's my experience from years of doing hardware now, and shared by many I know who are as real in this field as I am01:58
wolfspraulkristianpaul: would you agree with my assessment?01:58
wolfspraulwhen Ingenic comes out with a new chip, the 'feature list' is more a wishlist. THey 'think' that's what the chip should be able to do. They will remove features from the feature list as the customer complaints come in.01:59
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yes i do, i already had experienced that on my work too, not making hardware but integrate systems is always fun :)01:59
wolfspraulthat's how the industry works (exaggerated in China but it's the same principle everywhere)02:00
kristianpaulsecurity system*02:00
wolfspraulso complain about condescending or not, yes, Pixel Qi is ugly vaporware and needs to be labeled as such so that well meaning people in this channel can form their own opinion. After they have seen 2 opposing ones :-)02:01
wolfspraulI think one reason the hardware industry is so full of features that don't work once you try in practice is because the feedback loop is so slow.02:01
wolfspraulso a manager at some company may be desperate, and just get the feature in even with crippling limitations, he can save his job a few more months, or maybe get transferred to another department before the sales numbers come in. ("so low? why?")02:02
wolfspraulthe feedback loop is many months typically02:02
wolfspraulthat grows the problem unless you have a lot of experienced people everywhere who approach these many months of 'wishful thinking' (based on statements) with the attitude "at least 50% of this won't work anyway"02:03
wolfsprauladded 802.15.4 IEEE clarification - thanks!02:10
kristianpauloh, Buy after all those ephel* prices you feel a nanonote is cheap :)02:15
kristianpauleven a mm1, that btw i tought you have stock now? or distributors at least?02:15
wolfspraulthat was the secret plan. put the 24,000 USD Eyesis there to make the m1 look cheap02:16
wolfspraulWerner already noticed last night02:16
wolfspraulkristianpaul: no stock yet, still working on details02:17
kristianpaulbtw "*  Jadon Dutra made two nice Ben NanoNote tutorial videos. [8] "  <-- problems compiling emacs natively on the nanonote ??¡¡02:17
wolfsprauldon't know, talk to him. maybe he can make more videos, I think his are very nice.02:18
kristianpaulok, i jus wondering ig the link was right..02:18
wolfsprauloh, the link is wrong?02:19
wolfspraulone sec02:19
kristianpaulit seems to me, please confirm02:20
wolfspraulexcellent, yes. thank you so much!02:20
wolfspraulthis goes back to some long standing pipermail bugs that are not being fixed for 10 years or more.02:21
wolfspraulneither did I, in those years02:21
wolfspraulso it garbles/eats mails from the archives sometimes02:21
wolfspraulthanks a lot for noticing it, link corrected02:21
kristianpauleat? wow02:22
kristianpauli wonder how mamy conflicts that had already generated02:22
kristianpaul(you banned my mail,  sensure !, etc..)02:23
wolfspraulwhen a new mail comes in, pipermail adds it to the stack02:23
wolfsprauland modifies the links in the various html pages02:23
wolfspraulbut when you re-generate the entire archive from scratch, the results are different02:24
wolfspraulprobably some problem with parsing mime02:24
kristianpaulhum thats serious and kinda anynoing..02:24
wolfspraulso before I do news, I will regenerate the entire archive from scratch, so the links become 'permanent'02:24
wolfspraulI overlooked this one02:25
wolfspraulyes, annoying, and there for at least 10 years02:25
wolfspraulor 1502:25
wolfspraulI was trying to find a pipermail replacement, but the entire GNU mailman is not very actively developed02:25
wolfspraulany serious modern user of mailing lists has long switched to SaaS like mailchimp.com and many others02:26
wolfspraulthey are like 1000 times better than GNU mailman, from a purely practical perspective :-)02:26
kristianpaul(SaaS) bah, dont remenber me those :/02:27
wolfspraulyes well, first the facts02:27
wolfsprauland the fact is that those services are lightyears ahead of GNU mailman02:27
kristianpaulhe :)02:27
wolfspraulI would not want to recommend GNU mailman to any small business owner that would ask me for advice. I'd say "mailchimp.com" or so.02:28
kristianpauli will said, freelists.org ;)02:28
wolfspraulok :-)02:28
wolfspraulI am still satisfied with mailman/pipermail right now, I just wish it would develop faster, or non-SaaS GPL alternatives would pop up02:28
kristianpaulStable release 2.1.14 / September 20, 2010; 10 months ago (2010-09-20), according wikipedia02:30
kristianpaulso thats a pesky 10year bug :-)02:30
wolfspraulyes but the devil is in the detail02:30
wolfspraulthe pipermail archiver (which is a part of it) is mostly unmaintained02:30
wolfsprauland the rest of GNU mailman is also essentially in maintenance mode, compare to any 'modern' feature like say at mailchimp02:30
wolfspraulthey all just don't exist02:30
wolfspraulit's like a time machine to the last century02:31
wolfspraulof course many people would hate a lot of those features :-) http://mailchimp.com/features/02:33
wolfspraulbut it's a dangerous development if we disconnect from what most people will happily use and what will be effective for them. we become like a sect in the mountains.02:34
wolfspraulby now the split is so big (say between GNU mailman and mailchimp), that I believe it cannot be reconciled ever02:35
wolfspraulpeople on neither side even care, actually :-)02:35
kristianpauli was about to said that :)02:35
wolfspraulyeah we just gotta be careful to not pad on our own shoulders too hard...02:36
wolfspraulI won't go and fix those pipermail bugs either.02:36
wolfspraulkristianpaul: if Qi would make use of 'evil' tools like mailchimp.com, what would you think about that?02:37
wpwrak(cost-down m1) call is Phuenix ? ;-) oh, and i'd drop the NOR as well. as i understand things, nothing it does in M1 requires is to be NOR. a serial flash would do just fine, at probably a tiny fraction of the cost. (requires a bit of development effort, though)02:38
kristianpaulwell.. i will doubt that copyleft way they claim soo hard ;)02:38
wolfspraulwpwrak: drop nor is one of the big questions, yes02:39
kristianpaulwpwrak: (serial flash) acutally a board from cern uses same s6 and serial flash02:39
kristianpauldesign is there, just is altium, and i havent figure out how run rhe viewer in linux..02:40
wolfspraulkristianpaul: don't understand you. If Qi would use tools like mailchimp you would find Qi less authentic/credible?02:40
wolfspraulso my concern about dropping nor is... software compatibility :-)02:40
wolfspraulI still want to be able to build one image, ideally one bitstream, to run on all boards, all the way back to the first milkymist one rc102:41
kristianpaulwolfspraul: well, it depends, if i consider there is a vps somehwere been ignored,02:41
wolfspraulif we can achieve that, then there is even value in the switch because our design and platform would be more flexible02:41
kristianpaulwolfspraul: of course that cost (vps/dedicated machine)02:41
wolfspraulvps? don't understand again02:41
wolfspraulwould like like Qi to use mailchimp or not?02:42
wolfspraul(I don't want to, no worries. but I am curious about your thinking)02:42
kristianpaulNO :)02:42
kristianpaulwolfspraul: i host my own server too, and when i ran out money well, i should consider use githiub for host my page, but the i'll regret my self after 3 years of work to achieve that aparent autnomy :)02:42
wolfspraulso I am totally relaxed about nor vs serial flash, but I think it's an important decision that we need to make carefully02:42
wolfspraulunless we don't care that our platform disintegrates into a bunch of incompatible boards02:43
wolfspraulI want to be able to build, from source, images for all boards I ever sold. and the maintenance and testing overhead of that should be as low as possible.02:44
kristianpaulthats true (incompatible boards), considering different bitstream bios support..02:44
wpwrakgrmbl. a week worth of backlog in just about one hour. still ~5% from the bottom, according to the scroll bar ...02:44
wolfsprauland all mostly meaningless blurbs, sorry about that...02:45
wolfspraulthe NOR vs. spi is a good topic though, I'll wait until you caught up02:45
Action: larsc stop reading the backlogs in here long time ago ;)02:50
kristianpaullarsc: not all backlog is blurb02:51
wolfspraulI also read backlogs only sporadically, once a month maybe02:52
kristianpaulwell, i really like backlog from wolfspraul and wpwrak discussion some days in the morning02:52
wolfspraulevery minute reading = one minute less coding. Man I hope I can get back to coding one day...02:52
larsckristianpaul: thats true. but the signal to noise ratio can get low at times02:52
kristianpaulmay be is time to stop doing that :)02:53
wolfspraulyes but now I'm waiting for Werner and spi vs. nor :-)02:53
wolfspraulthat one is very interesting to me02:53
larscwolfspraul: i hope i can get away from it one day ;)02:53
wolfspraulfrom coding?02:53
wolfspraulwait until you want back :-)02:53
wolfspraulcomputers fight fair02:53
wolfspraulwe swap. you do sourcing, I do coding.02:54
larsci'll start at my first 9-5 coding job in two months. lets see how that goes02:56
wolfspraulyou will do well. stay for 2 years at least, my advice.02:57
wolfspraulthat'll be the hardest part for you :-)02:57
wolfspraulcongratulations btw for getting that job! it's always exciting to be around new people, I think.02:57
larscyeah, i guess it will be quite interesting. at least in the beginning02:58
kristianpaul(new people) indeed, after two years or so will be boring tought imho02:59
kristianpaulwell, at least is what i can said from my current job03:05
wolfspraulwpwrak: caught up?03:13
wolfspraulis there any electrical reason why m1 cannot support usb-otg ?03:27
wolfspraul(lars just brought his up in a PM)03:27
wolfspraulI think it's usb host right now, and if you solder some passive component somewhere you can turn it into a USB client03:28
wolfspraulbut what about otg? aside from the missing IC design support, I would think03:28
larscotg uses a different connector03:29
wolfspraulbut that's only mechanical I think03:29
larscthat connector has also an additional pin03:29
larscthe id pin, which is used to detect what kind of device is attached03:30
larscand whether it is a usb host or device03:30
wolfspraulwe are using a Micrel USB transceiver http://www.micrel.com/_PDF/mic2550a.pdf03:30
larsci think you can support at least a subset of otg with a 'normal' transceiver03:35
wolfspraulyes it's a very good point. I don't know what the smartest way forward is with the Micrel transceiver we have right now. needs more study.03:37
wolfspraulI do remember Sebastien saying at some point that it is possible to support USB client mode by adding a passive part somewhere.03:37
wolfspraulof course then it's hard-coded to client :-)03:37
wolfspraulnot exactly the type of switching we have in mind for otg03:37
wolfsprauland the micrel receiver we have only support full-speed (12mbps), not sure whether that is a problem. and then the work in the SoC (IC design), no idea.03:38
wolfspraulI also just notice the diagrams seems to suggest a surge protection, wondering whether we have that... (this is unrelated to otg of course, just noticed)03:40
wolfspraulok, we need to keep this on the to-be-researched list :-)03:42
wolfspraulis anybody against bumping andrew's nyan cat on silicon to the top of the news?03:55
wolfspraulif not I'll try. he just uploaded better pictures from a better run.03:55
wolfspraulalright, updated the Nyan Cat with better pictures and moved to the top. It's a nice short intro I think, and very serious project with great lab notes etc http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-08#Homebrew_CMOS_and_MEMS_foundry04:30
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08062011-0058/04:54
Artyomkristianpaul: I would check at first access to Namuru-registers. What about adding couple of test registers to which you can write and couple registers from wich you can read what was written previously?07:25
ArtyomAnd also I want to ask about array "const int prn_code[38]". Did you take values for it from osgps or from namuru documentation (osgps and namuru use different values).07:27
wpwrak(back from a nap. continuing with the backlog. still some ~3% from the bottom ... just passed my last comment on the backlog)08:51
wpwrakcatch-up complete !! ;-)08:56
wolfsprauland I'm just back from running, good08:57
wolfspraulLars brought up the interesting otg subject, that's something I will try to understand better at some point08:58
wolfspraulbut let's talk about nor vs. spi first08:58
wolfspraulthat one is really important I think, right now08:58
wpwrak(nyan cat) maybe for the future, a brief "highlights" section could be interesting. say, three items of insterest, be it because they mark important progress or because they're just unusual, pick a ~100 pixel image and use it as a "button". that way, you could place such "off-topic" things prominently without creating confusion08:58
wolfspraulso let's first remove some myths about the nor chip: it is easy to source, and it costs 10.50 USD for me right now08:58
wolfspraulyou find thousands of it in stock at Arrows, though not at digikey (where you can still order it in some quantity though)08:59
wolfspraulso it's not an obscure chip, and instead of 'expensive', let's just say 10.50 USD and then compare...08:59
wpwrak(nyan can) oh, and it's s/Nyon/Nyan/ ;-) nyon is a nice little place between lausanne and geneve where they have a big open-air concert event every year. sort of a swiss woodstock ;-)09:00
wolfspraulthe pros are: speed (what speed? boot speed?) execute-in-place?09:00
wpwrakaccording to lekernel, EIP isn't used09:00
wolfspraulcurrent Milkymist is 'compatible' with it? what does that impact exactly? bitstream? bios? rtems?09:00
wolfspraulif we make another milkymist board with an SPI flash, how can we achieve binary software compatibility across both boards?09:01
wpwrakEIP would have been my #1 concern. if it was used, then the replacement may be more difficult (e.g., you'd at least need more RAM)09:01
wolfspraulone of my goals is that whatever I produce, I wnat to be able to maintain/support the software on it for good / forever09:01
wpwrakhow big is the NOR again ?09:01
wolfspraulso I like to 'switch', but we must switch in such a way that later will not increase our software maintenance burden09:02
wolfspraul32 MiB09:02
wolfspraulif we achieve that, then we make the Milkymist platform more powerful/flexible, and that's always good09:02
wolfspraulbut if we don't achieve it, we create fragmentation and that's the worst we need, imho09:02
wolfspraulthat's my #1 concern, really09:02
wpwraki wouldn't make binary compatibility a requirement. it's not something you can control anyway. what you can control is a process that makes building the set of binaries you need painless09:02
wolfspraulfine, but you understand my point09:03
wolfspraulthe less we work on this, think about it, the more fragmentation09:03
wpwrakif you can achieve binary compatibility, great. if not, you take it in stride09:03
wolfsprauland that will kill Milkymist in the long run09:03
wolfspraulfirst we define it as a worthwhile goal09:03
wpwraksounds fair09:03
wolfsprauland since we are designing the boards, there always should be a chance to signal hardware differences in some way09:03
wolfspraulif we don't try, it will fragment very fast09:04
wolfsprauland in 5 years we have a lot of boards and the software will be a mess09:04
wpwrakUSD 10.50 is for which quantity ?09:04
wolfspraulfor rc3 I bought 90 maybe09:04
wolfspraulor 9509:04
wpwrakso that's the ~100 units price09:04
wolfspraulat Chinese/Taiwanese distributors the volume discounts are not as steep as at US distributors09:04
wolfspraulChinese work harder :-)09:04
wolfspraulso as you go down in volume, the price goes up, but not that fast09:05
wpwrakyeah, they only care about the 1M+ discounts ;-)09:05
wolfspraulI believe for rc2 I may have paid a little more09:05
wolfspraulwait, I check. should be in the wiki too.09:05
wolfspraulno, also 10.50 USD09:05
wolfspraulat digikey it's 11.xx for ca. 50009:06
wolfspraulbut not in stock09:06
wolfspraulso anyway, I just want to avoid we have this 'expensive' as our only argument, and rather compare real numbers09:06
wolfspraulthis chip is from a big series of NOR chips, so even if this one goes away I doubt the entire series goes away. I don't know how much a smaller or larger one would be.09:07
wolfspraulthe nor chips were just sold from Intel to Micron I believe. something like that.09:07
wolfspraulwhat I don't like about it is that it is physically big09:07
wolfspraulI don't know how an SPI flash would compare in size09:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: so now let's compare :-)09:08
wolfspraulwhat is the spi alternative? what are the pros and cons?09:08
wolfspraulspeed, price, size, binary or other platform compatibility, availability09:08
wpwrakhmm, the largest serial flash i can find at digi-key is 16 MB. USD 4.73. http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=N25Q128A11B1241FCT-ND09:08
wpwrak6 x 8 mm, BGA, digi-key say09:09
wpwrak(no data sheet link)09:09
wolfspraulis that the end of our comparison already? :-)09:11
wolfspraulnot enough pros?09:11
wolfspraulif a 16mb flash is already 4.73, I would think the 32mb flash costs 7-8 USD?09:11
wpwraksize is a function of pins and capacity09:11
wolfspraulso the cost savings are in the 3-4 USD range09:12
wpwrakif 16 MB is at the top end of the range, it would be more than 2x. but i don't know how reliable digi-key are as an information source here. they generally don't have a lot of memory.09:12
wpwrak(size) so at some point, if you need very high capacity, the die size dominates the total size. if your die can be small, the number of pins does.09:13
wpwrakbut i'd try to go for something more radical anyway. boot a minimum loader, then haul the rest in from uSD09:14
wolfspraulyou can search for 'strataflash' at digikey, that's the name of the series09:15
wpwrakthis is non-trivial, because you'd also have to "upgrade" the FPGA. but once you've solved that, you never have to go back to this kind of issues :)09:15
wolfspraulthen numonyx only09:15
wolfspraulin general they seem quite well stocked for this series09:16
wpwrakyes, all "non-stock", but all in stock ;-))09:16
wolfspraulyeah. they show all these funny numbers under 'quantity available'09:17
wpwrakanyway, i'd just fix the boot process for good. reduce external dependencies. go with the simplest serial flash that can do the job, and only keep the absolute minimum "core" there. ideally, you'd never have to change it.09:18
wpwrakmove all the things that can change, break, etc., into something nice and easy, like uSD09:19
wpwrakand yes, buy ten of each type of holders they have at digi-key and test which one actually works ;-)09:19
wolfspraulI understand09:19
wolfspraulfirst I look into this nor chip now09:20
wolfspraulI try to understand it09:20
wolfspraulin general at digikey the 16mib or 32mib variants seem available, but there are a lot of speed variants there it becomes 'call' only09:20
wolfspraulfor the faster speeds (85ns)09:20
wpwrakMegabits or MegaBytes ?09:21
wolfspraulI feel 'relatively' safe about this nor chip09:21
wolfspraulmib = megabytes09:21
wolfspraulI think it's a big series and must be used in high volume products all over.09:21
wolfspraulon the other hand it's clear that compared to say 'smartphones', those chips are crazy expensive and selling in crazy limited numbers09:22
wpwrakyeah, maybe PCs still boot form NOR09:22
wolfspraulalso embedded, it's a big world09:22
wolfspraulIntel sold it to Micron, not sure what that means09:22
wolfspraulbut my point is - this is not a rare/exotic chip that makes me worry right now, even though several people try to tell me that09:22
wolfspraulI just don't see evidence09:23
wpwrak(nyan cat) btw, his new results are too perfect. the old one showed some chemistry going awry. the new ones just look digitally generated :)09:23
wolfspraulit's clear that the price point of such chips is 'high' compared to the super high volume chips nowadays09:23
wolfspraulbut you could extend that argument to the spi flash as well09:24
wolfspraulwpwrak: well, he asked me to use the new pics and that's fine by me. I think for the casual browser those pice are nice.09:24
wpwrakyeah, it's price point, size, layout complexity (the chip needs data and address lines)09:24
wpwrak(nyan) yeah, just kidding. the results are amazing09:25
wolfspraulso what is the bottom line now?09:25
wolfspraulwe first try to make the boot process ready for larger diversity?09:25
wolfspraulbut we are not actively looking at spi flash now because nor is just fine?09:25
wpwraki think a NOR->SPI flash change should come with a generalization of the boot process. dunno the technical details but it sounds like a problem that can be solved, particularly given that lekernel already knows FPGA internals so well :)09:26
wolfspraulI highly doubt he sees that as an interesting task at this time, with seemingly hundreds of more interesting ones in the pipeline09:27
wpwrakif you try to map the current NOR 1:1 to SPI, you seem to force yourself into a corner of the existing product range09:27
wolfspraulyou mean the spi flash product range?09:28
wpwraki'm not saying that he'd have to execute it :) but i'm sure he'd share his knowledge09:28
wolfspraulwhich one do you see 'in the middle' there?09:28
wolfspraulI feel no need/pressure for this switch now, my main interest is to prepare/guide it in such a way that strengthens and will not fragment the platform09:28
wolfspraulfor m1 I don't need it09:28
wpwrakin the middle of the chip range ? dunno. a small number of MB. you shouldn't need much.09:28
wpwrak(M1) agreed. it's a relatively invasive change. for M1 you want to stabilize, then spin off (an) improved model(s)09:29
wolfspraulbut strangely enough a log of developers who never source much are telling me those nor flash are hard to source :-)09:29
wpwrakno point in creating an eternal construction site09:29
wolfspraulwhich makes me wonder is this just an argument because they are more familiar with spi flash?09:29
wpwrakoh, i remember NOR sourcing fun at openmoko. compared to a lot of other things, they have a pretty high bitchiness rank :)09:30
wolfspraulyes, and it's not sure for me now that a switch to spi flash would even be an improvement, I am trying to understand what the improvement would be.09:30
wolfspraulwhat exactly do you remember there?09:31
wolfspraulI am already sure by now that many developers will be more familiar with SPI flash, reasonable or not.09:31
wpwrakfirst of all, not all NOR are created alike. so you have to be careful about the specs. control signals, bus type, internal structure, etc. depends a bit on what features you need, of course.09:31
wolfspraulnot that I think the typical hardware folks are big risk or innovation seekers either :-) unlike us/me here :-)09:31
wolfspraulI also heard those 'horror stories' but at the time I was too clueless to dig in.09:32
wolfspraulit may well have been just myths and ghosts, mixed with a lot of incompetence09:32
wolfsprauland a quick look and order on digikey would have solved the problem09:32
wolfspraulquite possible, as you may have to admit :-)09:32
wpwraknaw, there were real. i did the research for the NOR chip ;-)09:33
wolfspraulthen what were the problems?09:33
wolfspraulwe switched from one manufacturer to another?09:33
wpwrakand of course, FIC sourcing then replaced the one i found with a slightly different one. and guess what couldn't be found then ? ;-))09:33
wolfspraulalways same manufacturer?09:33
wpwrakno no, that was the addition of "unbrickability" NOR in gta02, coming from the brickable gta0109:34
wolfspraulyes I know09:34
wolfspraulthe very reason for adding that chip smells 'over-engineering'09:34
wolfspraulbut that's a different subject09:34
wolfspraulbut what were the technical problems now?09:34
wolfspraulyou chose one?09:34
wolfspraulwhich manufacturer/model?09:34
wolfsprauland then they changed? to what?09:34
wolfsprauland then what?09:34
wpwraki need to dig out the old mails. parameters that matter there include the write protection mechanism, the bus type, internal structure (not all blocks have the same size), volatage domains (some are even dual-voltage)09:36
wolfspraulyes ok09:36
wolfspraulbut then you chose one, right?09:36
wolfspraulof course there are many parameters09:36
wolfspraulmy history/experience with nor flash starts with the micron/numonyx one on m1, and so far, so good09:37
wpwrakalso, some of the NORs get around a lot. company X makes them, then they get bought by Y, the NORs get transferred into joint-venture Z, and so on. so there are a lot fewer actual chips on the market than you'd think if you just collect names09:37
wolfspraulsounds like hearsay09:37
wolfspraulI mean that is exactly what happened in the intel->micron case, but it was super transparent and easy to understand and follow09:37
wolfspraulin fact Intel published PDFs that detailed every tiny bit of the move in such a way that you would think they are training monkeys09:38
wpwraki chose one. then FIC sourcing picked a different one. smaller and i think some small technical details changed as well (but that wasn't a major issue). and, unlike mine, it was hard to source ;-)09:38
wolfspraulso that nobody in the supply chain is scared if the label suddenly looks a little different :-)09:38
wolfspraulbut that's not a nor problem09:38
wolfspraulI still don't know manufacturer names09:38
wpwrakintel usually have great documentation09:38
wolfspraulthey switched manufacturer?09:39
wolfspraulthere are not that many fabs that make such chips09:39
wpwrakah yes, NOR documentation is also something. some of the stuff you can only figure out by reading 2-3 data sheets from competitors09:39
wolfspraulI can only say that lots of people tell me "nor on m1 is bad"09:39
wolfspraulso I take full responsibility for dismissing that, which is not that great.09:39
wolfspraulbut so far, it's fine09:39
wolfspraulthat's also unspecific again09:40
wolfspraulwait let me check our nor datasheet...09:40
wolfspraulthere seems to be a lot of nor hatred out there ;-)09:40
wolfspraulbom points to http://www.numonyx.com/Documents/Datasheets/319942_J3-65nm_256-Mbit_MLC%20DS.pdf09:40
wpwraknumonux are kinda intel ;-)09:40
wolfspraulbah, where is dsv :-)09:45
wolfspraulI will try to update the URL first of all09:45
wolfspraulthese horrible ad-overloaded alldatasheet sites, bah09:45
wolfspraulreally horrible09:45
wolfspraulee porn09:45
wpwraki forwarded you two mails about the NOR selection for gta0209:46
wpwrak(both are in one mail)09:46
wpwrak(ee porn) ;)))09:46
wpwrakso you really have to go to alldatasheets for numonyx ?!?09:46
wolfspraulwell :-)09:49
wolfspraulit seems micron is rather shy on datasheets09:49
wolfspraulso one by one09:49
wolfspraulI did download the Numonyx datasheet, I believe that is back from the Intel days09:50
wolfspraul66-page, looks solid09:50
wolfspraulI will archive that away now09:50
wolfspraulif you look at the Micron parallel nor list, you will understand why digikey doesn't like to stock the stuff http://www.micron.com/partscatalog.html?categoryPath=products/nor_flash/parallel_nor_flash09:50
wolfspraulthere must be hundreds of part numbers there, it's still loading more...09:51
wolfspraulplus if it is true that Micron doesn't release anything but fancy marketing datasheets for Ron, then that's a big argument against it, in my book09:51
wpwrakyes, there are tons of different NORs. and it's oh so easy to pick one that's obscure.09:51
wolfspraul(sorry Ron :-))09:51
wolfspraulbut I don't want to jump to conclusions09:52
wpwraki take a dim view of "you can have our data sheets, but you have to beg for them" companies09:53
wolfspraulwait one by one09:53
wolfspraulstill researching09:53
wolfspraulI don't like a 404 link in our bom anyway09:53
wolfspraulok we have a backup copy on downloads, well done by Adam, even without the help of dsv...09:54
wolfspraulI will link to that first09:54
wpwrakif they give the data sheet to anyone who asks, they've merely invented a process with a step that wasted my and their time. i don't like it if people presume my time is theirs to waste.09:55
wpwrakif they filter who gets access and who not, they've just added an element of unreliability to the process, particularly with a distributed environment like ours09:56
wolfsprauloh very easy. that means the datasheet doesn't exist.09:57
wolfspraulI will never ask.09:57
wolfspraulcopyleft hardware is about speed09:57
wolfspraulmy typing speed09:57
wolfspraulno fickle human in between09:57
wolfspraulfor now we can point to the backup we have on downloads09:58
wpwrakyeah, i pretty much treat them like this, too. registration/approval/other nonsense required -> goes right down to the bottom of the pile09:58
wolfspraulbut chips without datasheets are not suited for copyleft hardware, so if that's micron's new policy (after the takeover from Intel), that will mean their stuff will probably get designed out of our products, sooner or later09:58
wolfsprauloh. with 'datasheet' of course I mean a full and honest datasheet09:59
wolfspraulso - first I fix the links to our backup09:59
wolfspraulbut that would be a serious argument against the nor chip, again in my book09:59
wolfspraulyes, the datasheet I can download from all** after so and so many links is exactly the same one we have on downloads10:01
wolfspraulso that's good10:01
wolfspraulwe are still in possession of a full 66-page datasheet for the nor chip on m110:01
wolfspraulit's on downloads, and various ee porn sites on the web10:01
wolfspraulbut for future nor chips from Micron that doesn't look too good...10:01
LunaVorax_hi everyone !10:04
wolfspraulnow, let's do it right, Werner style10:04
LunaVorax_Werner ?10:05
wolfspraulMicron lists a total of 791 part numbers in their parallel nor flash catalog10:05
wolfspraulof which 611 are in 'Production'10:05
wolfspraul147 are End of Life10:05
wolfspraul5 are Sampling10:05
wolfspraul28 are "Contact Factory"10:06
wpwrakLunaVorax_ ? :)10:06
LunaVorax_What/Who is Werner ? You wpwrak ?10:06
wolfspraulyes, totals up to 79110:07
wpwrakLunaVorax_: yup10:07
wolfspraulwhere is ours?10:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: you're more pedantic than I am. i don't think i ever checked that the numbers of items they find add up ;-)10:08
LunaVorax_How is qi-hw going ? I haven't received any newsletter for a long time10:08
wolfspraulIt's in "Production"! Yippie.10:08
wolfspraulLunaVorax_: glad to hear you are experiencing some sort of cold turkey...10:09
wolfspraulLunaVorax_: soon you can buy a Milkymist One for 499 USD + shipping10:09
wolfspraulhow about that?10:09
wolfspraulI think I tried to sell it to you already, but you went silent :-)10:09
LunaVorax_Haha yeah10:09
LunaVorax_I don't have any 500$ in my pockets right now10:10
wolfspraulwpwrak: well ok. I still feel fairly safe about the sourcing situation of that chip.10:10
wolfspraulthat's ok, just saying. there are many ways how you can help, and your presence here is already nice.10:10
wolfsprauljust spread the word then - Milkymist! :-)10:10
LunaVorax_And I'm still devoting my self to the Nanonote for now, trying ot code a GMenu2x alternative in SDL10:10
wolfsprauloh wow10:10
wolfspraulthat's great10:10
wolfspraulthe NanoNote is our pocket computer, and until we can come up with a better pocket computer it will stay there10:11
LunaVorax_I don't know, it started as a copycat of Windows 810:11
wolfspraultry to do it super low-resource10:11
wolfspraulfast and very little memory10:11
LunaVorax_Yes I will, but keep in mind that I'm a beginner10:11
wolfspraulwe are all10:11
wolfspraulyou are in the right club here10:11
wolfspraulabsolute beginners10:12
LunaVorax_I always felt at home at #qi-hardware ;)10:12
wolfspraulwpwrak: if the datasheet of the nor flash went mia, that's bad10:12
wolfspraulwe still have copies and there are enough on the web and that will be safe forever, but it's not good for the future10:12
wolfspraulbut before coming to that conclusion I need to check on the micron site a bit more, or, god forbid, email them for a statement10:13
wpwrakyeah, data sheets "disappearing" isn't nice10:13
wolfspraulthe division was sold10:13
wpwrakalas, happens with those mergers and acquisitions10:13
wolfspraulthere may be a new strategy around IP, documentation, etc. new managers. it's ok with me.10:14
wolfspraulit just may mean that we take our business elsewhere.10:14
wpwrakmaybe it just pops up again with a new part number and a new company logo10:14
wolfspraulend of story10:14
wolfspraulthat has already happened10:14
wolfsprauland that is why the datasheet is gone now10:14
wpwrakthe URL would of course change :)10:14
wolfspraulyou don't understand10:15
wolfspraulit was already branched out at the Intel times10:15
wolfspraulbut then it got swallowed up by Micron10:15
wolfspraulso there is a nice redirect from numonyx.com to micron.com, but it ends in a nice Micron 404 page10:15
wolfspraulit could be an oversight, but I doubt it10:15
wolfspraulmicron just has a number of 'technical briefs' in which they explain all their greatness to you10:16
wolfspraulall the many battles that they fought for you, etc. etc.10:16
wolfspraulI need to look a bit more, no conclusion yet.10:17
wolfspraulI'll fix the links first.10:17
wolfspraulfirst have to take care of our little beauty m110:17
wpwrakmarketing to decision-makers with an MBA :)10:17
wolfsprauloh yes10:17
wolfspraul"we chose that Micron technology, because ..."10:17
wolfspraulthe only thing the engineers can hope for then is to remember the paycheck, and wonder whether it's enough in damage compensation10:18
wolfspraulbut this is how our world functions, Micron also just needs to survive...10:18
wolfspraulso I have no gripes with them, but I will remove their chips from my products :-)10:19
wolfspraulwhich they will not worry about given my sales volume...10:19
wolfspraulall fine10:19
wpwrakso what's the chip again ?10:20
wolfspraul(or with an A or B at the end, tray or reel I think)10:21
wolfspraulafter the 10510:21
wolfspraullike this10:21
wolfspraulLunaVorax_: what's the name of your launcher?10:22
wolfspraulit could be a very neat project for the NanoNote, I always wished for something lighter (in resources) and faster than gmenu2x10:22
wolfspraulwell perfect, you are too fast for me10:24
wolfspraulthey changed the name of the file slightly, but md5sum is the same10:25
wolfspraulso for the time being, the one known downside that remains is that it's a part number among 791 others10:26
wolfspraulmeaning that stock levels may be an issue10:26
wolfspraulalthough the one we have so far seems to be a 'common' one, by the limited data I have10:27
LunaVorax_wolfspraul, don't know, I though about "Infinite"10:27
LunaVorax_You know, cause if you rotate the number 810:27
LunaVorax_But I though something more of a welcome screen with squares and colors and widget, like on the Win8 demo10:27
wolfspraulMicron seems to follow Numonyx and Intel's datasheets, at least for now10:27
LunaVorax_And different pannels, one for the apps, the other for idk, weather, mails ?10:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: first Numonyx was branched out from Intel in 2008, then Micron bought Numonyx in 201010:28
wolfspraulso far still a clean process10:28
wolfspraulLunaVorax_: sure, sounds good!10:29
wolfspraulhopefully the panels are easily configurable, for me the flatter the better10:29
LunaVorax_Don't be too excited haha10:29
wolfspraulthat is so funny. On wikipedia for Numonyx they say "Fate: Acquired by Micron Technology"10:30
wolfspraulfate = "an inevitable course of events" (also Wikipedia)10:31
wolfspraulI guess there was no other way for Numonyx... :-)10:32
wpwrakthey had it coming ;-)10:34
wolfspraulso back to your first thoughts. you want a minimal spi flash, then 8:1010:34
wolfspraulthe spi flash would deliver what? the bitstream, rtems?10:35
wolfspraulor just a hand-written bootloader?10:35
wolfspraulu-boot? :-)10:35
wolfspraulQi bootloader?10:35
wolfspraulthe bitstream seems to be 1.4 megabytes long10:36
wolfspraullooking here http://milkymist.org/updates/2011-07-13/10:36
wolfspraulrescue bitstream? rescue bootloader?10:37
wolfspraullooks like 4 megabytes or even 8 megabytes...10:37
wolfspraulyou wouldn't want to limit the growth of the bitstream that way10:37
wolfspraulthe 8:10 will cause a lot of pain, so we better plan several of them, so that one can be completely done and mounted/inserted on the production line, and ideally never touched10:38
wolfspraulwhereas the second one is meant for user interaction10:39
wpwrakbitstream plus a simple uSD loader10:39
wolfspraul2 bitstreams? loader from scratch/u-boot/qi/linux?10:40
wpwrakmaybe with the ability to read files from, say, FAT, by name10:40
wpwraknaw, for fallback/recover/etc., just pick an alternative set from the uSD card10:40
wolfspraulwon't work if you screw up the bitstream10:41
wolfspraul(or the bootloader, but I would expect more risky development to happen on the bistream side)10:43
wpwrake.g., do if (no_magic_key_pressed) { if (can_load("M1-FIRST.BOO") boot(); } while (!can_load("M1-SECOND.BOO")); boot();10:43
wolfspraulrisky in the sense that it won't boot10:43
wolfspraulok so we say developer have jtag anyway, can unbrick10:43
wpwraki would look for a way to replace the bitstream10:43
wpwrakthat's probably the tricky bit10:43
wolfspraulhuh? don't understand10:43
wpwrakpartial reconfiguration :)10:44
wpwrakor maybe you can even do full reconfiguration10:44
wolfspraulI'm practical10:44
wolfspraulI think some fpgas also support configuration from your beloved card now10:44
wolfspraulbut again, I'm practial and don't just want to discuss for discussion's sake10:44
wolfspraulso what works for m1, now, as the next step... that's what I wonder about10:45
wolfspraulneed to check whether the s-6 supports anything from sd10:45
wpwraki don't think you want to change that in M1. for M1, I'd say, stabilize, bring the software into shape. then do an M2 where all the little nuisances of M1 are fixed. M2 would be the right place for that kind of boot architecture redesign.10:51
wpwrakfor the Phuenix, you said that you'd want to drop lots of things. what parts of M1 would you want to keep ?10:52
wpwrak(M2) or Phuenix. if they're not effectively the same ;-)10:53
wolfspraulLunaVorax_: how can we make development for the NanoNote for you more fun?10:54
wolfspraulwhat is Phuenix?10:54
wolfspraulwpwrak: I don't want to make the boot/nor change at all10:54
wpwraka mixture of phoenix and Xue ;-)10:54
wolfspraulbut one thing I can imagine is that we make a little board, or a few, to test some of those things or to develop them early10:55
wpwraki.e., your cost-down M110:55
wolfspraulah no, definitely not10:55
wolfspraulI don't see it there10:55
wolfspraulfor me this is about strengthening the Milkymist platform10:55
wpwrak(test board) yes, that's the right approach. small steps :)10:55
wolfspraulso I think we could make some test boards10:55
wolfspraulwith the goal of going in that direction while maintaining compatibility with what has been done before10:55
wolfspraulbecause this kind of change will impact different parts, software, tools, etc.10:56
LunaVorax_wolfspraul, invent a machine that can transfer all the programming books directly to my head ;)10:56
wpwrakyes, of course. you can also get rid of jtag for good if you want :)10:56
wolfspraulthat's a job for Werner, clearly10:56
wolfspraulhe can invent such a machine10:56
LunaVorax_wolfspraul, more seriously, I have trouble compiling a single SDL hello world under the Nanonote10:56
wolfspraulmaybe xiangfu can team up with you if you need help. we should have some nice little hello world apps as starting points for people.10:57
LunaVorax_I'll run a compile again in a few minutes to check what kind of errors I get10:57
wpwrakLunaVorax_: the machine will be for free. but the special headache pills will cost you ;-)10:57
wolfspraulincluding a wiki page that walks you through step by step how to bring them live and add your own code to them...10:57
LunaVorax_wolfspraul, yes that should definitely be needed10:58
LunaVorax_wolfspraul, it reminds me the problem with the GP2X Wiz. It's aimed at game developers, but the wiki, docs and toolkit is insanely chaotic10:58
wolfspraulI cannot, or should not, raise any sort of expectations on your side that our wiki is or will be better10:59
wolfspraula clean wiki is terribly hard11:00
wolfspraulneeds some people to basically make that their contribution to the project to just clean clean clean11:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: anyway, what peripherals would the cost-down M1 keep ? USB host ? uSD ? Ether ? audio in ? audio out ? midi ? dmx ? video in ? video out ? LEDs ? :)11:00
wolfspraulthat's not an m111:00
wolfspraulit's a way to broaden the Milkymist platform, bring it to new use cases/developers, without breaking compatibility11:00
wpwrakalright, the Phuenix ;-)11:00
wolfspraulI have no idea what it would keep or add11:01
wpwrakok :)11:01
wolfspraulSebastien floatet the idea of a Milkymist board 'around' dsp/rf/io one time11:01
wolfspraulso he may have been thinking about some ideas11:01
wolfsprauldon't know details11:02
wpwrakbyw, you could probably also trim down the M1 without losing too much. e.g., drop MIDI, Ether, maybe also DMX. use USB for MIDI and host communication. maybe there's also USB-to-DMX11:02
wpwrakstrike the maybe :)11:02
wpwrakexpensive, though11:02
wolfsprauldon't understand11:03
wolfspraulthat's not realistic, you seem to forget that m1 works today, as a product11:03
wolfspraulwho will develop all these usb-to-anything dreams?11:03
wpwrakyes, but you want to cost-down, right ?11:03
wolfspraulwhy would it be cheaper? which prices are you comparing?11:04
wpwrakwell, MIDI-USB is already there (in linux)11:04
wolfspraulin Linux...11:04
wolfspraulM1 is a product that works _today_11:04
wolfspraulI cannot compare what works today with something that is just imagination11:04
wpwrakthe cost-down M1 would be tomorrow :)11:04
wolfspraulthat's not cost down11:04
wolfspraulit's causing insane trouble and costs everywhere11:04
wpwrakwhy ?11:05
wolfspraulwell, I just told you some examples11:05
wolfspraulall those usb-to-anything simply won't work11:05
wolfspraulor you start coding today? :-)11:05
wolfspraulcase changes11:05
wolfspraulbox changes11:05
wolfspraulthat's not cost down really11:05
wolfsprauland then we need external parts11:05
wolfspraulsource from where?11:05
wolfspraulat what price?11:05
wolfspraulthe end result may even be clunkier than an integrated connector11:05
wolfspraulno no11:05
wolfspraulhorrible :-)11:05
wpwrakyou want proper usb support anyway. "we don't support this" gets boring after a while11:06
wolfspraullet's leave m1 as is, cost down inside yes11:06
wolfspraulI can only look at and compare realistic options11:06
wolfspraulwhat I talked about is another board, completely separate from the video synthesizer product11:06
wpwrakyou only need external parts in case they're needed. not everyone needs MIDI. and a lot of today's MIDI is already USB. not everyone needs DMX.11:06
wolfspraulthat board could meet a number of goals at the same time11:06
wolfspraulbut MIDI and DMX are in the product now, keeping them costs me maybe a few USD / unit11:07
wpwrakDMX would probably be part of an expensive installation anyway. so, make it part of the cost of the $$$$ lighting equipment, not part of the $$ milkymist11:07
wolfspraulremoving them would cost tens of thousands of USD11:07
wolfspraulargh no. well. those things simply won't happen.11:07
wolfspraulwe are making a product and will polish it, software updates, marketing, etc.11:07
wolfspraulremove jtag-serial11:08
wolfspraulmaybe switch from vga to dvi-i11:08
wolfspraulthose are all controlled improvements11:08
wolfspraulupdate the video decoder chip11:08
wolfspraulif we switch from vga to dvi-i we of course will include adapter cables in the box11:09
wolfsprauland then software updates, and more software updates11:09
wpwrakyou say you want to be "compatible". what does this mean ? will the Phuenix run flickernoise ?11:10
wolfsprauland hopefully 2 years later it's a much more powerful box11:10
wolfspraulwell, we are defining the purpose of this board now11:10
wolfspraulso the answer depends on that11:10
wolfsprauloh btw, a Milkymist Two might do things like xilinx -7 or altera, ddr3, add a touchpanel on the top, etc.11:11
wpwrak(USB-centric M1) i think this should be a product evolution step. remove excess "fat". that is, if your market analysis shows this will help you. (financially or in terms of spreading the word)11:11
wolfspraulbut that's after we sell a few thousand Milkymist One11:11
wolfspraulonce you put a product out on the market, like a video synthesizer, it's about evolution not revolution, imho11:12
wolfspraulyou cannot remove dmx as the next step, that's crazy11:12
wolfspraulmakes no economic sense11:12
wolfspraulyou are just building a channel and doing marketing so people value those features11:12
wolfsprauland you are delivering updates to them that use those features more and more11:12
wpwrak(M1-USB) i.e., if people bark at the USD 500 price tag and you can't bring the per unit cost down much with the present hardware design, trimming off non-essential bits may help to reach, say USD 300.11:13
wolfspraulyou overestimate the cost of the dmx and midi parts11:13
wolfspraulit doesn't add up to much at all11:13
wpwrakyou can check if people actually use DMX. if 99% don't care about it, you can safely drop it. particularly if you're nice and make sure an alternative exists11:14
wolfspraulif I cost-down the acrylic case and make it in China that alone will bring me 10 times more than all those parts together11:14
wolfspraulno no11:14
wolfspraulnow it's about marketing those features, not removing them11:14
wolfspraulit will stay for at least 2 years11:14
wolfspraullet's make that 3, or 511:14
wolfspraulsee above11:14
wolfsprauldvi, yes11:14
wpwrakof course, you will have those who complain about not having DMX in the box. but you seem to have a lot of people complaining about the USD 500 price tag today. that's overwhelmingly the #1 reaction11:14
wolfspraulhigher-performance fpga, yes11:14
wolfspraulddr3, maybe _add_ a touchscreen, yes11:14
wolfspraulfor the m1 product, think in that direction11:15
wpwrak(acrylic) yes, that one's pricy :)11:15
wolfspraulwho is complaining about 500 USD?11:15
wpwrakdo you have a calculation what each feature effectively costs (BOM-wise) ?11:15
wolfspraulwell the bom is just there, easy to add up11:16
wpwrakyes, maybe the VJs will just eat the cost11:16
wolfspraulno they will demand a high-performance product that they know and that works out of the box11:16
wolfspraulif that's the case they will happily spend 1000 USD11:16
wolfspraulor whatever it takes11:16
wolfsprauland if that's not the case, they will not buy no matter how cheap it is11:16
wolfspraulthat's how most people value products :-)11:16
wolfspraulto reach those, we need higher performance in some key areas11:17
wolfspraulMORE features, not less11:17
wolfspraulwhat I'm thinking about now is a second board11:17
wolfspraulsomething new11:17
wolfspraulpcba only11:17
wolfspraulno case11:17
wolfspraulpurpose? hardware hacking11:17
wpwrakyou may also want to consider the amateur market. people who want cool video effects at their student party.11:17
wolfsprauleven most of those need a _working_ product above all11:17
wolfspraulthat's why they all have Macs nowadays11:17
wolfspraulnot known to be the cheapest notebook maker11:18
wpwrakoh, sure. i consider "working" as a given. like linux and proper USB. that's stuff you have to do anyway, so there's not point in discussing it from an "what if" angle.11:18
wolfspraulyou see my point is a totally separate thing11:19
wpwrakwhat do we call that second board ?11:19
wolfspraulnone of the m1 buyers would even compare with that 'thing'11:19
wolfspraulno case, as a starter11:19
wolfspraulno accessories11:19
wpwrakno, give it a name first11:19
wpwrakany name ;-)11:19
wpwrakyou don't like Phuenix ? ;-)11:19
wolfspraulpretty crazy :-)11:19
wolfspraulI'm fine with that11:20
wpwrakkewl. nobody will get the inside joke, but that's fine ;-)11:20
wolfspraulhardly pronouncable for Americans, I can tell you already11:20
wolfspraulafter the Milkymist shock this will kill Jon11:20
wpwrakrhymes with "fun" :)11:20
wolfspraulEVERY american will think this is a bad typo11:20
wolfspraulanyway, OK11:20
wolfspraulso Phuenix11:20
wolfspraulsee the goal is totally different from m1, m2, m311:21
wolfspraulthat's a video synthesizer11:21
wolfspraulwe hope to reach out to non-technical people11:21
wpwrakask the british what they think of the american's opinions on orthography ;-)11:21
wolfspraulwe hope to make it the most powerful video synthesizer later, with hundreds of features11:21
wolfspraulthere's certainly a lot it _could_ do11:21
wolfspraulvideo streaming etc.11:21
wolfspraulbut as a product, and marketing message, we need to leave that untouched for a while11:22
wolfspraulit's a new brand11:22
wolfspraulyou cannot sell a product and 6 months later disappear11:22
wpwrakso, Phuenix will be "compatible". what does that mean ? what sort of applications are supposed to run (in a useful way) both on M1 and Phuenix ? "hello world" ? Flickernoise ?11:22
wolfspraulok, so that's clera I think. my perspective on the line of video synthesizers11:22
wolfspraulthey will also do cost-down, but without destroying the product11:22
wolfspraulthere's something missing11:22
wolfspraulhackers are complaining11:22
wolfspraulhackers may not like the all-inclusive accessories list11:23
wolfspraulthey can even buy a power supply themselves11:23
wolfspraulthey can solder DIP parts themselves11:23
wpwrak(Milkymist line) keeping that one is good. would indeed be crazy to drop it. there lies openmoko, rhymes with "madness" :)11:23
wolfspraulwhich compatibility exactly - good question11:24
wpwrakthe accessories are largely a crutch to overcome the lack of drivers. you don't really need them in the long run.11:24
wolfspraulwe can already see within the Milkymist One/Two/Three video synthesizer line, there could be challenges11:24
wolfspraulimagine an upgrade to xilinx-7, or a future altera-based Mx11:24
wolfspraulor ddr311:24
wolfspraulall that should be introduced in a 'compatible' way11:25
wolfspraulor SPI flash11:25
wolfspraulbut what is compatible exactly?11:25
wolfspraulwe can always assume full source availability11:25
wolfspraulone sec bbiab11:25
wpwraka technically halfway competent Vj will probably not want to use the accessories for long anyway. nice out of the box experience, then put them back into the box and connect serious equipment. and then they'll hit the driver problems ;-) but again, i expect all those to get fixed with time11:25
wolfspraulyou tell me what you think it should be, on the Milkymist platform...11:25
wolfspraulI need to make the product work _NOW_, because I want to sell it _NOW_11:26
wolfspraulso I don't want anybody to go through an experience like I did with buying 4 different keyboards11:26
wolfspraulor 10 different remote controls11:26
wolfspraullet's talk about Phuenix and compatibility, that's interesting11:26
wpwrakyou want to sell it now and make it work as good as you can, given that constraint :)11:26
wolfspraulour users/buyers would want me to do that for them11:26
wpwrakPhuenix, let's start with the easy things. will it have USB host ? video out ?11:27
wpwrak(keyboards/remotes) dunno. the remote probably yes, because "generic" remotes often are quite different beasts. not sure about the keyboard. some will probably want a nationalized keyboard, with the layout they're familiar with. keyboard, even the rubber type, are usually easy to find. so it's not an item that really adds much value.11:29
wolfspraulvery good, I just realize. We do indeed need to define something like "Milkymist Hardware Compatibility Requirements"11:31
wolfspraullike a list of things that a board needs to have in order to be 'milkymist compatible'11:31
wpwrak(kbd) and since you don't offer a choice of layouts, it becomes a (small) sales issue. because people will probably ask for their choice of layout and you'll have to turn them down.11:31
wpwrakyeah, "core platform" :)11:31
wpwrakFPGA with this or that capabilities, at least xxx bits of DRAM, etc. :)11:32
wolfspraulwe can write whatever we want into those requirements, and refine them over time etc.11:32
wolfspraulbut I think that'd be a start11:32
wpwraksince cost is a consideration, it would be good to have the BOM cost per subsystem. e.g., what does audio in cost, what audio out, what both together, how much for DMX, etc.11:34
wpwrakalso, we should assume that M1 is mature by then, with proper linux drivers for all interfaces11:35
wolfspraulyou and your dmx :-)11:35
wolfspraullet's sort the table by amount...11:35
wolfspraulfpga 40 pcb 20 smt 20 video-decoder 13 ddr 12 nor 11 ac97 511:36
wolfspraulthose are easy to identify immediately for me11:36
wolfspraulthat's a total of 121 USD11:37
wolfspraulthe total for the entire board is 190 I think11:37
wolfspraulDMX, let's see11:37
wpwrakDMX seems to cost USD 4 for connectors alone. they're also pesky through-hole parts11:37
wpwrakerr no, USD 311:38
wpwrakbut there's probably more to it, in terms of circuit11:38
wolfspraulmy estimate would be 5-8 USD for DMX11:38
wolfsprauldinner, bbiab11:38
wpwrakU4, U5, D6 through D13, J7, J811:41
wpwrakand, unlike those expensive USB-DMX devices, no galvanic separation. may be an electrocution risk for M1.11:42
wolfspraulthere is little reason to discuss dmx, because on m1 the video synthesizer line it will stay for good/the foreseeable future11:43
wolfspraulwhereas on Phuenix, at least in my thinking, that's the last thing I can see there11:43
wpwrakyour estimate of DMX BOM cost was good. 2*1.864+8*0.015+1.601+1.338 = USD 6.78711:44
wolfspraulit goes back to my bank account, you know :-)11:44
wolfspraulI'm not suicidal11:44
wolfspraulbut seriously, on m1 it stays, and on Phuenix I totally cannot see it11:45
wolfspraullet me try to think through my main goals for Phuenix (proposals)11:45
wolfspraulmilkymist 'compatible (to be defined what that is - requirements)11:45
wolfspraulno accessories, no case11:45
wolfspraulopens up new development opportunities, new use cases (something that is not yet in m1)11:46
wolfspraulyeah, that's all11:46
wpwrak(Phuenix) i'd keep at least USB host and video out. add USB in. probably drop ether.11:46
wolfspraulcomes back a little to Xue (without image sensor, remember in the last xue iteration the image sensor was already on a daughterboard)11:47
wolfspraulUSB yes, definitely11:47
wolfspraulvideo-out, yes11:47
wolfsprauldrop ether, hmm11:47
wolfspraulthat requires improved usb :-)11:47
wpwrakyou eventually want USB in anyway :)11:48
wolfspraulyes sure11:48
wolfspraulwe think alike11:48
wolfspraulout with all this stuff11:48
wolfspraulsuper cost down11:48
wpwrakaudio ? video in ?11:48
wolfspraulbut it must be a way for the Milkymist platform to grow11:48
wolfspraulyeah well11:48
wolfsprauldon't know11:48
wolfspraulSebastien chose the video decoder (quite expensive) to get it to work fast11:48
wolfspraulI think theoretically the fpga might be able to do that too11:49
wolfspraulnot sure what that means 'theoretically'11:49
wolfspraulaudio maybe the same?11:49
wolfspraulcan the fpga implement what the wolfson does now for 5 usd?11:49
wolfspraulif yes (theoretically), what does that mean?11:49
wolfspraulac97 is a standard already...11:49
wolfspraulthere's often a tradeoff between theoretical and practical to make...11:50
wolfspraulif we go with theoretically possible on too many things, the board may just be dead and unattractive11:51
wpwrakanalog in substitution may be tricky. you need at least an ADC. and a fast general-purpose ADC may be more expensive than all those specialized chips. plus, you'd need serious signal processing, also to remove all the analog domain you problems you may create11:51
wpwrakyou could drop the video out DAC ;-)11:51
wolfspraulthat's why we have to focus on something11:52
wolfsprauland why I like the focus of the m1 product/video synthesizer very much11:52
wolfspraulso this second board needs to be a calculated move11:53
wolfspraulretain some stuff, open up new interesting development fronts/opportunities11:53
wolfsprauljust the right balance11:53
wolfsprauland cheap, no case, no accessories, I think those we agree on11:53
wolfspraulremove old interfaces, yes I fully agree11:54
wolfsprauldmx, midi, ethernet11:54
wolfspraulall out11:54
wolfspraulbut then?11:54
wolfspraulusb otg? even high-speed?11:54
DocScrutinizerroh: ping11:54
wolfspraulhow to interface with new chips, imaging sensors, rf chips, others?11:54
DocScrutinizermoin wolfganf11:55
DocScrutinizermoin wolfgang11:55
wpwrakhigh-speed is tricky ;-) but yes, desirable too11:55
wolfspraulremove video decoder? that may well be the end of any practically working video-in feature, for years or forever :-)11:55
DocScrutinizermoin werner11:55
wpwraknot sure if the fpga can do it. 480 MHz ...11:55
wolfspraulremove vga dac11:55
wolfsprauldigital out only?11:55
wpwrakubb-vga style, discrete DAC ;-)11:56
wolfspraulwpwrak: well yes, you will have this question for every interface11:56
wolfspraulthat's the tradeoff11:56
wpwrakmompls. need to go afk for a bit11:56
wolfspraulthat's why Phuenix above all needs good focus11:56
wolfspraulsure :-)11:56
wolfspraulno rush on this anyway...11:56
wolfspraulI'm already dwelling over it for a while11:57
wolfspraulmilkymist, second step, but how, and where :-)11:57
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: good morning!11:58
wolfspraulalways nice to hear from you11:58
wolfspraulhow are things going?11:58
wolfspraulI see you in heated discussions in other channels :-)11:58
DocScrutinizerthere are some things on this earth that make me either shout at people, or bitch like mad about what the original parents of that crap actually thought12:00
DocScrutinizerrecently I had a hard time not to treat Nokia's N950/harmattan combo in the microwave or with a sledgehammer12:02
DocScrutinizernow I've boxed and stowed away the N950 and my mood is way more relaxed again :-D12:03
DocScrutinizerhonestly, a "security framework" that disallows root to write files to ~user/.ssh/* (for example). KTNXBY12:05
DocScrutinizerthen when somebody comes to teach me I am stupid as I don't understand a device with a fat printing "DEVELOPER DEVICE, not for sale!" is actually not supposed to give full root access and in the end "it's not a unix workstation, it's a user device. You don't understand the concept of user device" then the debate starts gaining temperature12:08
DocScrutinizeranyway, busy for preparing for camp2011 which takes over in my life in 36h12:09
wolfspraulare you still in touch with Dieter?12:10
DocScrutinizernot at all12:10
wolfspraulis Dieter still active in osmocom?12:10
wolfspraulhe, ok12:10
DocScrutinizerdon't know12:10
wolfspraulI was just wondering whether you all meet at the camp12:10
DocScrutinizerbut I'm looking forward to meet Harald in radio village on camp12:10
DocScrutinizerA pity Nokia deliberately and definitely binned the idea of FOSS OS phones12:18
wolfspraulwe get there :-)12:18
wolfspraullet's call it 'mobile communications device' first though, just in case12:19
DocScrutinizeran abomination they alienated it by forcing TC into it (see harmattan aegis)12:19
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: check this, quite nice http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-0812:19
wolfspraulour latest news...12:19
DocScrutinizerRTFL, is this strip free?12:20
DocScrutinizerI *want* it! :-D12:20
wolfspraulstrip free? don't understand12:20
DocScrutinizerthe 3 picture cartoon, is it CC or sth?12:21
DocScrutinizerI.E. may I use it?12:21
wolfsprauloh of course12:21
wolfspraulthe link is right there, from Nina Paley12:21
wolfspraulcc-by-sa licensed12:21
wolfspraulglad you like it12:22
wolfspraulI had even planned on including her booklet in the m1 case, but my "Wolfgang: FOCUS!" alarm went off12:22
wolfspraulin the m1 box I mean12:22
DocScrutinizerdamn cool webpage :-D12:24
wolfspraulwe can include the booklet with Phuenix :-)12:24
DocScrutinizersee you are in laz0rs now :-))12:24
DocScrutinizerone of my favourite topics12:24
wolfsprauldidn't you read the mission statement?12:25
wolfspraulqi goals: phone, wall computer, notebook, pocket computer, camera, machine vision, industry, medical, creative, wearable computing, mobility, education, scientific, research, home automation, networking, entertainment, fun12:25
wolfspraullaser is under 'scientific' I think :-)12:25
wolfspraulor 'entertainment'12:25
DocScrutinizernope, sorry, I can't follow all that noise on this world anymore. Too much equally important and interesting stuff12:25
wolfspraulsure I was just kidding :-)12:26
wolfspraulno worries12:26
wolfspraulbut yes we found the OpenLase project...12:26
wolfspraulmaybe he will do the electrical design in KiCad, all software free and open etc. we see...12:26
DocScrutinizerI twice a year set 400.000 unread mails in my client to "status: read"12:26
wolfspraulthat's marcan in this channel12:26
wolfspraulmakes sense12:26
wolfspraulthere's a lot of noise, I hope some of our stuff bubbles up over time. I'm patient.12:27
DocScrutinizerpretty annoying, and now even M infra just is down again, so I can't even get important updates regarding camp12:27
DocScrutinizerOM mail infra12:27
wolfspraulget off of those servers12:28
DocScrutinizerestablished it as my primary email over some 4 (?) years now12:28
DocScrutinizerthat's the PTA with it12:28
DocScrutinizerI hope I can move mail.openmoko.org one day I'm the only one still using it ;-P12:29
wolfspraulsome good folks are holding up the wiki against spam flood, but I'm not sure when their willingness to mass-delete every day will be worn out12:30
DocScrutinizeror alternatively I'm happy to create some forwards on *my* mailserver for the other accounts :-D12:30
wolfspraulso the wiki is in the hands of 1-2 good fellas whom we gave admin rights12:30
wolfspraulbut when they stop, I won't take over12:31
wolfspraulthen we need to set the wiki to read-only most likely12:31
wolfspraulbut not yet, they are still deleting, every day ;-)12:31
wolfspraulit would actually require a mediawiki update and captcha, but I doubt that will happen12:32
DocScrutinizerI don't worry about wii.om.org, it's mostly static now and probably somebody should eventually package it for download and local access12:32
wolfspraulit's not static, there is some edit activity still, and most importantly constant spam deletion12:32
wolfspraulif the spam deletion falls behind for 1 month or so, it's lost12:32
DocScrutinizermy concern is joerg at om.org12:33
wolfspraulunderstood :-)12:33
wolfspraulare you the only user now?12:33
wolfspraulcould be...12:33
DocScrutinizermega pita to switch12:33
DocScrutinizerif I was the only user, it's easy, I just ask roh to change the MX record12:34
wolfspraulbut there can't be many left, maybe some accouts, but real usage?12:34
wolfspraulok :-) well then...12:34
DocScrutinizersomebody could grep the mailer logs for actual polls12:35
wpwrakall my openmoko subscriptions are still on werner@openmoko.org, so things will all die together. anything else is now happily on almesberger.net12:39
wolfspraulwpwrak: looked at http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/user_guides/ug380.pdf12:43
wolfspraulto me looks like s-6 cannot directly configure from 8:1012:43
wolfspraulneeds extra microcontrollers etc.12:43
wolfspraulthat was obvious, but I wanted to check12:43
wolfspraulI've heard from fpgas support configure from 8:10 now12:44
wolfspraulwpwrak: I wanted to mention one thing about the Phuenix plans, regarding video-out12:44
wolfspraulso we have vga only now (analog), the DAC costs 3.50 USD12:44
wolfspraulso far so good12:44
wolfspraulwe have already tentatively decided to upgrade m1 to a dvi-i connector asap12:44
wolfspraulwhich would leave the vga solution as is (same dac), and route the digital signals directly to the fpga, single-link, or if there are enough pins and routing space, even dual-link (most likely will not be utilized any time soon though)12:45
wolfspraulif rc3 sales are slow, maybe I will expedite this dvi-i idea and already include it in rc412:45
wolfspraulbut I don't hope rc3 sales are slow, and since the main goal is for m1 to not run out of stock anymore, we would probably not do dvi-i in rc412:46
wolfspraulnow.. whenever dvi-i is there, the door is open for the implementation of a digital video-output in the SoC12:46
wolfspraul'door open'12:46
wolfspraulonce we get that working, and like performance, that would then allow us to go with a digital-only video-out solution on Phuenix12:46
wpwraksounds good12:46
wolfspraulif we do it earlier (on Phuenix), that's risky because we are stacking multiple risks on top of each other12:47
wolfsprauland I rather keep our boards in a functioning/interesting state than turn them into development hell12:47
wpwrakyou sound as if you wanted to start work on Phuenix tomorrow ;-)12:47
wolfspraulthat would save us 3.50 USD on Phuenix and we could take the risk of going digital-only12:48
wolfspraulnot start tomorrow, but start thinking today, yes12:48
wolfspraulI like this realization I had earlier "Milkymist Hardware Compatibility Requirements"12:48
wolfspraulthat's absolutely great12:48
wolfspraulI will start to nag people about it :-)12:48
wpwrakah, digital-only may not be so nice. VGA is still common.12:48
wpwrakbut you can do cheap VGA, ubb-vga style12:49
wolfspraulI just wanted to explain the path that is already more or less planned on m112:49
wolfsprauldvi-i, add digital, then develop in the SoC (who? no idea :-)), then have both as an option12:49
wolfspraulI will try to do this asap, even in rc4, but like I said the highest priority is to be always in stock12:50
wolfsprauland Adam is already working full-time, so we see when we get to it12:50
wolfsprauleither rc4 or rc512:50
wolfspraulI also need to source new adapter cables then12:50
wolfspraulso digital video out is coming (first as an unimplemented option)12:50
wpwrakthanks to having an FPGA, that's even reasonably risk-free ;-)12:53
wolfspraulthe choice of adcs/dacs on Phuenix will probably be tough12:55
wolfspraulwell we got the easy questions answered12:56
wolfspraulremove dmx, midi, ether12:56
wolfspraulwho knows we can also just leave it there. even the same pcb, just leave some parts unpopulated.12:57
wolfspraulmaybe try to improve USB...12:58
wolfspraulintegrate the atrf even? I'm up for it...12:59
wolfspraulwhat would it take to develop a DSL modem around Milkymist?12:59
wpwrakno idea what DSL needs13:04
wpwrakand i'd need CaTV anyway :)13:04
wolfspraulsee your nor mails, interesting13:05
wolfspraulAtmel, hmm13:06
wolfspraulthat's what we used in the end?13:06
wolfspraulI wasn't even aware Atmel did memory, but apparently they do. If that's what we had it may not have been the best choice of manufacturer (or unlucky, as you said, because things changed after the selection, which can always happen)13:08
wolfspraulthe little I know about memory fabs is that they are prohibitely expensive, and huge investment leads to consolidation. so pick the biggest, if you can :-)13:09
wolfspraulwhich may or may not be the case for Atmel, but I haven't heard of them in that context before (searching now a bit)13:10
wolfspraulhe. atmel.com doesn't list parallel flash at all anymore, at first glance.13:12
wolfspraulmaybe they sold it13:12
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: >>atben-atusb Combo   59,00 EUR \n  Elphel Eyesis   24,000 USD  <<13:23
wolfspraulyes! :-)13:25
wolfspraulwpwrak: you were right!13:25
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: so what do you think about it?13:26
wolfspraulthere's a GPL discount on that 24,000 USD price13:26
wolfsprauldon't know how much, depends on your contribution back I think13:26
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: I think it doesn't parse here13:27
wolfspraulit's an omnivision camera, click on the link next to it13:27
wolfspraulvery cool thing, all GPL licensed13:27
DocScrutinizereither it has to be 59.00 or better 59.--, or it has to be 24,0013:27
wolfspraulprice a little high, admittedly13:27
wolfspraulno the atben-atusb Combo is 59,00 EUR, the Elphel Eyesis sets you back 24,000 USD13:28
wolfspraulshould I write it out in words maybe?13:28
wolfspraulboth prices plus shipping13:28
DocScrutinizeryou should stick to one locale, first instance13:31
DocScrutinizereither use . or , for decimal separator, but not both mixed13:32
wolfspraulI am listing shops/sources. The Elphel Eyesis ships from Salt Lake City, and only from there13:32
wolfsprauloh wait, checking13:32
wolfspraulbelieve it or not, that entire thing is GPL licensed13:32
wolfspraulall plans are open13:32
DocScrutinizerwhere "." means ", == thousands separator then, like in 24,000"13:32
wolfspraulelectrical, mechanical, IC design, everything13:32
wolfspraulso you can build one and sell for 22,000 USD13:32
wolfspraulthey are selling13:32
wolfspraularguably the coolest piece of GPL hardware in the world, right now13:33
wolfspraulI think I make it 59.00, or just 5913:33
wolfspraulmaybe just 5913:33
DocScrutinizerthen, if you'd have used "29,999" I'd possibly not even had noticed it13:33
wolfspraulthis was copy/pasted from Tuxbrain's shop, I didn't notice the inconsistency13:33
wolfspraulthanks a lot!13:34
wolfspraulnow fixed :-)13:34
wpwraki think the swiss got it right: . for separation from fractions, ' for thousands. so it would be 24'000.00, not nonsense like 24.000,0013:34
wpwrakor maybe the swiss use , anyway, doesn't matter, it's unambiguous ;-)13:34
wolfspraulI think it's good now, but you were totally right, before it was confusing13:35
wpwrakand now, out into the big blue room. shopping.13:39
DocScrutinizeralas elphel is next to illegible. Fixed linewraps of lines so long I need to scroll left/right for each one on my 1280 wide screen13:40
DocScrutinizerthey are used to their panorama views on a 3 head system, I guess ;-D13:54
kristianpaulArtyom prn_code he, well, i think there is a typo somwhere14:12
kristianpauland yes i have a general porpuse register to write and read, actually even a test write/read command too :)14:13
Action: kristianpaul hopes that qi-bot will tell all this to Artyom when he showed up :)14:14
kristianpaul(touchpanel on the top) :-D14:40
wolfspraulkristianpaul: what do you think about the Phuenix plans so far?14:56
wolfsprauldid you read anything where you mentally say "NO!"? :-)14:56
kristianpaulwell, ethernet drop fire that NO on on mind14:58
wolfspraulhe, I can understand14:58
kristianpaulbut if you include atben, well :)14:58
wolfspraulbecause you know that works today, but the usb->ethernet plans are just wishful thinking14:58
kristianpauli can force the switch14:58
kristianpaulvery wishful indeed14:58
kristianpaulbtw where came that idea of DSL modem?14:58
wolfspraulidea maybe a bit too much, but why not :-)14:59
wolfspraulbut considering that you can get a dsl/wifi router for 20 usd, it's a tough proposition15:00
wolfspraulkristianpaul: the idea behind removing ethernet is the assumption that that board will also improve usb a lot, in whatever magical ways15:00
wolfspraulI agree with you that there's a reality gap somewhere in that thought15:00
wolfspraulso the Ethernet port may stay on, and can be removed when a real alternative exists :-)15:01
kristianpauleven tought i dont now.. look those usb to something cables coming from it.. soo messy :)15:01
kristianpaulat least a wireless solution works of the box15:01
kristianpaulwe relly on ethernet for lot of stuff currently like netboot, patch uploads..15:01
wolfspraulyes I would like the idea of integrating ben-wpan a lot, let's see what Werner thinks15:01
wolfspraulwe can also just go with my last idea up there, which is to keep the entire board the same, and just not populate some items like midi & dmx15:02
kristianpauli read well (dont want to check backlog again) also jtag removal?15:02
wolfspraulnot for developers of course15:02
kristianpaulah ;)15:02
wolfspraulthat's why I said the 'product' for users is one thing15:02
wolfsprauland it cannot remove dmx15:02
wolfspraulbut it can remove jtag15:02
kristianpauli tought wpwrak was about to suguest a good replace for htag :-)15:03
wolfspraulwhereas Phuenix is on a different mission15:03
kristianpaulsame board hum.. i tought you meant before xue like size?15:03
wolfspraulwe are discussing :-)15:03
kristianpauli mean more a rectangle? someething you can easilly hold with your hands may be?15:04
kristianpauland also, you dint even talk about battery? :-)15:04
wolfspraulI am just thinking what makes sense, collecting feedback, thinking more15:04
kristianpaulsure sure15:04
wolfspraulI'd love to go mobile, for sure15:04
wolfspraul5V supply can be hacked into a mobile supply though, I would think15:04
wolfspraulsince there's a lot of USB battery packs, solar chargers, etc.15:04
Action: kristianpaul have its pack15:05
wolfspraulwhat do you have? can you give me a url or upload a picture?15:05
wolfspraulvery nice, thanks. checking...15:06
kristianpauli use it to charge nanonote, as i something forgot to charge it and when need it is off 15:06
kristianpaulthe rf part what sebastien suguested, was TV* related?15:07
kristianpauli dont remenber..15:07
wolfsprauloutput 5.5v, 600mA15:07
wolfspraulso you have a USB cable coming out of that?15:07
wolfspraul5.5v could work, a little high. 600mA is a little low, I wonder whether Phuenix could start with it :-)15:07
wolfspraulwell, a lot of confusing thoughts now, let's see what bubbles up15:09
wolfspraulI will start to work a little on a Milkymist Hardware Compatibility doc15:09
wolfspraulI think that's a good thing15:09
wolfspraulthen it's not this open-ended 'anything' anymore15:09
wolfspraulwhere 'anything' unfortunately in most cases means 'infinite work'15:10
wolfspraulso it's more like 'nothing'15:10
wolfspraulthat's all not good15:10
wolfspraulwe should have a document, and clearly say what is inside of our scope, and what is outside of our scope15:10
wolfsprauland then the stuff inside is supported and maintained, and the stuff outside is not15:10
marcanwolfspraul: I will *definitely* do the design in kicad and all the software/firmware will be free/open, that much I'm sureof ;)15:12
kristianpaulabout all USB is not just linux missing drivers also the current softusb is not even full OHCI if i recall correctly15:12
kristianpaulmarcan: nice ! :)15:13
marcanI'm kind of in the middle of a relocation and job change though, so I don't expect any progress for a while ;)15:13
wolfspraulSebastien needs to help us a little with that, mostly by telling us what is easy and what is hard to add/support/modify in the Milkymist SoC15:13
wolfspraulthen we can include the easy items inside of the requirements scope, and the hard ones are outside15:13
wolfspraulmarcan: oh sure, no offense :-) I am just super careful in over-promising, that only raises expectations and finally will make everybody feel things failed.15:14
wolfspraulif things are steady but going in the right direction, wow, that's awesome. that's the best.15:14
kristianpaul(Sebastien helps), oh sure, also that thinks like he is not going to code it, but at least point some sources and know caveats that he already known :)15:14
DocScrutinizer>>Cabstone Solar Not-Ladegerät mit integr. 5,5V 1000mAh Li-Po Akku ...<<15:15
wolfspraulwe have a roadmap already in the milkymist wiki15:15
wolfspraulI just need help sorting things from easy to hard, then we have a start for our compatibility doc15:15
kristianpauli had sees things appear in that roadmap the we're not written, so well a roadmap-like page i will say..15:15
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: you think they will provide 5.5V all the time?15:15
wolfspraulor is it slowly going down?15:16
DocScrutinizerno, step up converter15:16
DocScrutinizerLiIon is 3V715:16
DocScrutinizerstill :-D15:16
wolfspraulwhy 5.5 and not 5.0?15:16
wolfspraulisn't USB saying 4.75 to 5.25 ?15:17
DocScrutinizerhmm, maybe some weird devices work better with VBUS at upper specs15:17
kristianpaul5.5 because is intented to charge a battery i guess?15:17
wolfspraulkristianpaul: when you get a chance, can you measure which voltage how comes out of your pack?15:18
wolfspraulLi-ion is charged at 4.2 I think15:18
kristianpauloh let me try right now, i have scope jut next to me :)15:18
DocScrutinizerseems like dedicated VBUS step-up converters always are specified for 5V515:18
wolfspraulthis just reminds me that on a closer look, I have sometimes seen power supply labels saying 5.0v, sometimes 5.5v15:19
wolfspraulwonder what's the story behind it15:19
DocScrutinizercable loss etc?15:19
DocScrutinizerI'd guess some simple LiIon charger circuits run into trouble to charge cell up to 4.25..4.3V when input voltage drops to <5.0V15:21
wolfspraulok but that's <5.0 now, not <5.515:21
DocScrutinizercable loss, connectors, et al15:21
wolfspraulsince the usb spec says 4.75 to 5.25 I'm surprised that it seems high-volume supplies and packs just go for 5.5 :-)15:22
wolfspraul"a little more cannot hurt" philosophy?15:22
DocScrutinizerno idea where it came from, but that 5V5 figure is rather common15:22
Action: kristianpaul fiding a way to probes reach usb connector15:22
wolfspraulwhereever it originated, was that before or after the USB 5.0 spec?15:22
DocScrutinizerUSB5.0 ? :-D15:23
wolfspraulin other words - was it done on purpose for some reason (like you say cable loss etc), or was it more like "ok, this happens to work for most USB devices as well, even though it's outside of the spec"15:23
DocScrutinizernot the faintest clue15:24
wolfspraulwill keep my ears open :-)15:24
wolfspraulI can ask our power supply vendor and see what they say...15:24
Action: DocScrutinizer imagines Andy would join in to this debate15:25
wolfspraulit's only a small difference but I am wondering where it comes from15:25
kristianpaulthats with no load, and from my cheap  generic multimeter15:25
wolfspraulkristianpaul: that's what I would have thought, at the end you get a little less than the 5.5v still15:25
kristianpaulnow lets try with scope15:25
kristianpauli want see over time..15:25
wolfspraulso maybe the supply provides 5.5v, on purpose, because they know they want to supply enough for a usb standard of 4.75-5.25 ...15:26
kristianpaulnote that current charge is Half not full15:26
wolfspraulbut according to DocScrutinizer that shouldn't matter15:26
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: I've became careful, at least alert, of small differences like this one, yes :-)15:27
wolfspraulignoring is always easy, I can ignore it a little later...15:27
wolfsprauluntil then I try to dig a little15:27
wolfspraulsomehow I cannot imagine that the 5V5 became 'common' as you say before anything USB and was just 'made fit' later15:28
DocScrutinizerthere's no use in "show me the usecase for making USB safe for arbitrary overvoltage" notion15:28
wolfspraulI would think it was done in full awareness of the USB spec15:28
wolfspraulI'm not talking about that15:28
DocScrutinizerI know15:28
wolfspraulI am curious about the difference, the reasons/origins.15:29
wolfspraulmy guess would be it was designed like that15:29
DocScrutinizerjust saying I've seen it frequently, so probably it's justified somehow15:29
wolfspraulto factor in cable loss, loss under load, etc.15:29
wolfspraulso that it stays within the USB range under normal conditions15:29
DocScrutinizera little more is less of a problem that a itsy bit too low voltage15:30
wolfspraulso maybe a power supply whose label says 5.0V has the exact same 5V5 converter in it as the one that says 5.5V on the label...15:30
kristianpaul(upload patches) yes i know phounix is not about VJ but you get the upload stuff idea :)15:31
DocScrutinizeras bot will state +-10% anyway15:31
wolfspraulthat would bring the one that says 5.5V to 6.05V then :-)15:31
wolfspraulmaking things worse15:31
DocScrutinizerno, as they can be rather sure the chip won't exceed 5V515:32
wolfspraulif it's designed to factor in cable loss etc. the label should probably better just say 5.0V (in this case)15:32
wolfspraulyes but I was talking about the label15:32
wolfspraulif the label says 5.5V and +-10%, it'd be misleading15:32
DocScrutinizeror 5.5V+0-10%15:32
wolfspraulI'm sure I've never seen that :-)15:32
wolfspraulin fact most of the time no +- %15:32
wolfsprauljust 5.0 and 5.5, I do remember seeing both15:33
wolfspraulI think I mostly got it. For now we think it's always the same 5V5 converter inside...15:33
DocScrutinizeron components, esp capacitors you frequently find -20%+100%, or the other way round15:33
DocScrutinizer-100% was nice though15:34
DocScrutinizerblowfuses also have such specs frequently15:35
DocScrutinizerall sorts of protective gear15:35
DocScrutinizerjust keep in mind Vbat 4.30V to VBUS(low) 4.75V is pretty hard a living for simple circuitry15:36
DocScrutinizerso charging of a crappy mp3-player with a crappy usb charger might simply fail15:37
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: you've seen the pics of some of the Chinese battery packs I took apart, right?15:37
wolfspraula 12 V supply charging 3 li-ion in series, etc.15:38
wolfspraulyou can always get something in...15:38
DocScrutinizerwhile no USB device except OM stuff is supposed to break on VBUS=6V15:38
wolfspraulit broke at 6V already?15:38
DocScrutinizerit wasn't specified to survive, so if it did it was to "good will" of chips15:39
wolfspraulwhat was it specified to survive and what should it have been specified to survive?15:44
wolfspraul(if you remember)15:44
kristianpaullol a usb cable generate a lot of fun signals even when not connected no nothing.. well air :-)15:48
DocScrutinizerthe critical part been pcf50633 which had either 5V5 or 6V0 ABS-MAX15:48
DocScrutinizerfor the "should" ask Andy, he thought that'S well within USB specs15:49
wolfspraulsounds like 'should survive' should be at least 5.5V, if that's what the power supplies are even saying they may provide15:50
wolfspraulif not a bit more? 5.75? 6? you tell me...15:50
DocScrutinizermy design rules always been to design headroom in for random other equipment to fail without killing my stuff15:50
wolfspraulso if the power supplies already say 5.5, that makes it?15:51
DocScrutinizerno, not in my book15:51
DocScrutinizerdepending on sitaution/case you are usually giving a 5%..100% headroom for increased safety. That's pretty much heuristics15:52
DocScrutinizeron power supplies I tend to be generous with headroom15:52
DocScrutinizeron mains 220V I'd not consider to build hardware to survive constant operation at >250V15:53
DocScrutinizermaybe 26015:53
kristianpaulscope measure same, peak of 5.3V15:54
DocScrutinizerusually you design hw so it fails gracefully and recovers with low to no effort, from overvoltage on supply15:54
DocScrutinizerheadroom until overvoltage fries your OV-protective circuitry should be at least 300% I'd guess15:55
DocScrutinizerso if you connect a 110V device to 220V it blows fuse, and then it's "safe" up to at very least 1000V15:56
DocScrutinizeron Neo there's no fuse that blows, there's no chip that shuts down, on 6.0V. It simply *may* die irrecoverably15:57
DocScrutinizerand Andy thought he might proove something by applying 12V to *one* device and diagnosing "no blue smoke"15:58
wolfspraulok understood15:58
DocScrutinizerhe didn't even bother to check if the pcf50633 chip still completely works within specs after that test15:59
wolfspraulyou would probably like the fuse+zener we have on m1 now :-)15:59
DocScrutinizerheh, great!15:59
wolfspraulprobably :-)15:59
wolfspraula varistor added on video-in as well16:00
wolfspraulas Werner thought dmx could be better protected too. and usb probably too :-)16:00
wolfspraulwe see16:00
wolfspraulI think I got the 5.0v vs. 5.5v situation, thanks a lot!16:00
DocScrutinizerI'm pleased to see my ranting made a difference16:01
wpwrakback from shopping. phew narrowly escaped the invasion of the families with kids. was already too late to escape the housewives. sunday early morning (8-9 am) is perfect. then, only misfits like myself do their groceries ;-)16:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: (m1+wpan) sure, why not. external antenna ? RP-SMA-style, perhaps ? then you just need chip plus balun16:10
kristianpaul(wpan) and not forget at least footprint for increase transmit power :-)16:12
wpwrak(hw compatibility) maybe call it "Milkymist Hardware Family" ? "compatibility" sounds a little too strict16:14
wpwrak(5v5) maybe they just have bad load regulation. so you need some headroom to avoid dropping too far when the load suddenly jumps up16:20
wpwrakkristianpaul: increased tx power is a major design extension. needs to be built and tested first. there may be surprises.16:28
wpwrakkristianpaul: but yes, with the right chip, you'd even get antenna diversity. so you could, say, have an RP-SMA for an external antenna, plus an internal antenna16:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: (regarding my NOR recommendation for gta02) atmel are a bit of an odd shop. they have lots of very different things. not sure how they got there. either lots of mad scientists in R&D or lots of acquisitions.16:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: back then, the atmel was the only one i could find with known good availability. i had some more on my list (see the first mail), but FIC sourcing never responded to my requests to find out if the part could be sourced.16:35
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: surprises isn't exactly the term I'd use. If your antenna is a combined TX/RX then you'll have a hard time to cut the line up to insert an amp for TX and not break RX by doing so17:01
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: which is of course why i wouldn't do such a thing ;-)17:02
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: lemme finish my brunch, then i;ll paste a few links showing the hard and the easy way17:03
DocScrutinizerso find some chip that has separate pins for RX and TX antenna17:03
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: I think I know the hard and the easy ways, back from my time with CiticenBand and amateur radio17:05
DocScrutinizereven the "easy" ways are not exactly easy, as you more often than not get issues with unwanted feedback, esp with amps that have high gain17:06
DocScrutinizeryou can use a RF suited "switch" to bypass RX RF around the TX power amp, and you need some way to control that switch17:07
DocScrutinizerI could even imagine nowadays you can find amp chips that have switch and input TX sensing integrated17:08
DocScrutinizeralso some transceiver chips have a TX-mode signaling line that can get used to control the switch17:09
DocScrutinizerthere are some external active booster antennae that implement such booster/switch/mode-sensor circuitry17:11
DocScrutinizere.g for GSM iirc I've seen those17:11
DocScrutinizerfor wimax too17:12
kristianpaul(booster) links please :)17:12
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: sorry, I have to google for those links just like you 17:13
kristianpaulah :)17:13
kristianpauli tought you had already implemnted it ,)17:14
DocScrutinizeranyway for CB that design been pretty common, always attributed to "compensate for cable loss, to get the full allowable 0.5/2W to the antenna"17:14
DocScrutinizerfor WLAN/WiMAX and GSM the rationale is about the same17:15
wpwrakbrunch complete17:23
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: the hard way: http://atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc8340.pdf17:23
wpwrakall the fun is on page 1817:23
wpwraka potentially easier way: http://www.skyworksinc.com/uploads/documents/201221C.pdf17:24
wpwrakor, even better, with an antenna switch: http://www.rfmd.com/CS/Documents/RF6555DS.pdf17:24
wpwraknote the built-in baluns and, at least in the case of the sky65352, DC blocks17:26
wpwrakand yes, the AT86RF231 has TX/RX switch control and also antenna selection outputs17:30
DocScrutinizerwell, all pretty much in line with what I said17:38
DocScrutinizerand you of course "cut the line to insert amp", just it's a smart amp that has the switching built in, to bypass the TX amp for RX signals17:42
wpwrakyeah :)17:42
DocScrutinizerthe rmfd looks really nice17:42
wpwraksmart cutting :)17:42
DocScrutinizernext to zero external components17:42
wpwrakjust the way i like it :)17:43
kristianpaulsounds like a plan?17:44
wpwrakah, here's another one that may be good. alas, the data sheet is one of those crippled ones: http://www.skyworksinc.com/uploads/documents/SiGe/DST-00405_SiGe_SE2436L_Datasheet_Rev_1_0_SF_Jan-10-2011%20(1pager).pdf17:44
wpwrak(ironically, SiGe have several quite similar chips with proper data sheets)17:44
wpwrakof course, not that skyworks have devoured sige, there's no telling what will happen with these chips. e.g., will they just be killed ? or will they complement skyworks' collection ?17:45
DocScrutinizerwtf, 27dBm TX17:49
DocScrutinizerI think 0.5W RF output should suffice for friggin zigbee17:57
wpwrakvee vil roast ze enemy :)17:57
wpwraki think the RF6505 has similar power output17:58
wpwrak(from RFMD)17:58
DocScrutinizernah, 18dBm17:58
wpwrakthat's the RF6555 :)17:58
DocScrutinizerwell, anyway have fun with PCB layout for such a critter18:00
wpwraka case for multilayer18:00
DocScrutinizerlike standing with your microphone in front of the 4m high tower of PA speakers18:00
wpwrakit's half-duplex ;-)18:01
DocScrutinizeryou better know your way around RF layout18:01
DocScrutinizerit's NOT relevant if that's halfduplex, the amp never is halfduplex, it's realtime18:02
wpwrakbut yes, it would be nice if the amps had a little less gain18:02
wpwrakthe AT86RF231 can output up to 3 dBm, so for 18 dB, 15 dB would be enough. don't need those extra 10 dB18:03
DocScrutinizeryou will want to plce the transceiver plus PA chip into a nice tight can, and keep the antenna trace properly buried inside the layers and as short as possible. Also make sure you RF-block *all* other traces running into the can18:04
wpwraki wonder how bad it really is. seems that the 50 mW boards don't always have a can. so maybe these are still "safe"18:07
wpwrakor even 100 mW18:07
DocScrutinizeryou always can find a layout that doesn't need a can, if you try sufficient number of different layouts.18:08
wpwrakthe SKY65352 seems to be without can. 100 mW. they have very detailed PCB instructions. i guess that's a good sign :)18:09
DocScrutinizeryou may even find a layout that doesn't need a can no matter what changes you do to the environment setup (place device on a steel table, next to a power cable, on top of another WLAN device...)18:09
wpwrakjust make the case big enough ;-)18:10
DocScrutinizer(very detailed PCB intr.) seems I've read sth like "each tiny change of those details needs a complete re-evaluation of the whole design" OWTTE18:11
wpwrakOWTTE ?18:11
DocScrutinizertiny change is as little as replacing the input receptacle by a direct connection18:12
DocScrutinizeror words to the effect?18:12
wpwrakwell, you need to "evaluate" the design in any case. there's no such thing as "open-loop" design. 18:13
wpwrakeven though ron seems to think it exists ;-)18:13
DocScrutinizernevertheless you hope your evaluation will yield OK result18:14
wpwrak(exists) well, outside stories of a week of black fridays in EE ;-)18:14
wpwrak(ok) sure. else, the merry tweaking begins18:15
DocScrutinizerthere's nothing as funny as an oscillating power-amp18:20
DocScrutinizerI had a CB (27MHz) booster boc 50W based on a single electron tube with some additional passive gear and a transformer, rectifier, HUGE elco for the power supply. On turning right the power dial I got a feedback obviously from the antenna contraption to the poorly shielded input cable from CB-transceiver. The power meter needle hit hard on the upper mechanical limit which was at 100W scale, and same moment my PC, my radio clock, my 18:26
DocScrutinizermodem and a number of other electronics in the flat rebooted ot went crazy18:26
DocScrutinizerbut usually you just wonder wtf your audio amp's power transistors get so hot, while you clearly calibrated the thing to only draw like 50mA quiescent current and there's no signal and not even a speaker connected to output18:36
DocScrutinizerthen you might learn it pushes 20W out via the open end speaker cable, on 100kHz18:37
kristianpaulhi Artyom 19:48
Artyomhi kristianpaul19:49
kristianpauldid qi-bot give you a message?19:50
kristianpaulin any case19:51
kristianpaul09:13 < kristianpaul> Artyom prn_code he, well, i think there is a typo somwhere19:51
kristianpaul09:14 < kristianpaul> and yes i have a general porpuse register to write and read, actually even a test write/read command too :)19:51
Artyomyes, I've seen it couple of minutes ago in irc-log ;)19:51
kristianpaulgood :)19:52
ArtyomSo, your test write/read command works fine?19:52
kristianpaulyes it does19:52
kristianpaulactually i implemented the HW_ID register as well :)19:52
kristianpaulbut decide to add that general porpuse reg just in case19:52
kristianpaulbtw i undertood from you that you dont initilize the CODE_NCO register?19:54
ArtyomAnd what do you mean by "typo somewhere"? (about prn_cod)19:54
kristianpaulbecause no needed for accumlators later?19:54
Artyomwait a second, I will check my code...19:56
kristianpaul(prn_cod) yes, more precicelly i noticed namuru datasheet compared with that osgps array share some values, but not all19:58
Artyomno, both CODE_NCO and CARR_NCO must be initialized. Otherwise these NCOs will not generate desired frequency...19:59
Artyom(prn_code): yes, some look the same (but for different PRN#) and some are different.20:00
ArtyomI think correct way is to use namuru prn_codes20:01
kristianpaulyou compared with gps-sdr ?20:02
kristianpaulor akos code?20:02
ArtyomI used Numuru version in my experiments with acquisition - and it worked fine20:04
kristianpaulworkfed fine include code detection and tracking? :)20:05
kristianpaulah, you mean you took rpn keys values from namuru code?20:07
Artyomno, only acquisition ;) (I compared results with results from Akos code). Tracking didn't work in my case.20:07
Action: kristianpaul need to get away from those 33°C today and send 3°C to wpwrak 20:07
kristianpaulbut i dont find a direct relation yet20:09
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: seems I found a link related to a question we discussed some 4 years ago ;-D http://www.jtagtest.com/faq/jtag-ieee-1149-1/under-what-conditions-can-i-daisy-chain-jtag20:09
Artyomprn_cod depends on how PRN_generators are realized. (ospgs take prn_cod from gp2021 datasheet. Other prn_cod for namuru means that they made generator in a different way. Difference can be for example in the shift_register direction or anything else).20:13
kristianpaulyes thats truth..20:14
kristianpaulwell you know more that i on that topic, i even cared to understand it yet :)20:14
ArtyomSo, what is the current state of your work? Still fighting with accumulators? Can you give a link to the last version of the main.c?20:17
kristianpaulwich main.c?20:17
kristianpaulyeah, still fighting with accumulators.. :/20:18
kristianpauli'm not using osgps yet with namuru, actually i jsut wrote some silly commands for the milkymist bios to take care about initialization and read STATUS and accumulators20:20
Artyomyes, main.c for milkmist20:20
kristianpaulah sure20:20
kristianpaulArtyom: https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/blob/gps-sdr-testing/software/bios/main.c20:21
ArtyomAnd what is clock frequency for namuru?20:22
kristianpaulyes, there are two clock domains, milkymist at 80Mhz and namuru at 16Mhz20:23
kristianpaul16.684 to be more prcesise20:24
kristianpaulhttps://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/blob/67e3a3e31cd7f130b2f3bd32747525567f78adb8/cores/namuru/rtl/namuru_time_base.v 20:25
kristianpauli fixed namuru comments to my values20:25
ArtyomAnd have you recalculated NCO's frequency codes?20:26
kristianpaulall comented in evry source code, i know i must move to somwhere else, after it works :)20:27
Artyomas I understand you try to call namuruinit-function? Is it correct?20:33
kristianpauland later namururstatus20:34
kristianpaulpolling for now20:34
kristianpaulArtyom: time_base.vhd line 87 why you compare against 4?20:36
kristianpauljust curious well i'm not using sample clk anyway...20:38
kristianpaulyou tried to generated clock for you maxim frontend from namuru?20:38
ArtyomGood question ;) I don't remember exactly. But at first I should note that I use 80 MHz clock. And I played a little with accum_sample_enable. May be this shift (4 against 6) seemed for some reasons better to me...20:42
ArtyomI don't use sample_clk too.20:42
ArtyomIn my case I take 16MHz from numuru and multiply it by 5 in FPGA and use 16*5=80MHz as a clock source for namuru.20:43
ArtyomI take 16 MHz from my front-end (mistake in the previous message)20:44
kristianpaulso in the fpga just a single clock?20:47
kristianpauland this muñtiply dont affect the sign/mag sampling?20:48
Artyomand async access to mcu20:48
kristianpaulbtw wich cpu are you thinking about for purse softwre processing?20:51
Artyomwell, I didn't think about it ;) But you are right: there are potentially some possible problems.20:52
kristianpauli asked peter mumford and he said, that, "clocks. The main thing with clocks is to ensure that the correlator clock is synchronised with the front-end clock"20:53
ArtyomAs I understand DSP: if I multiply sampling freq by 5 then I should get 5 copies of the spectrum. But I don't think that it's a problem20:53
kristianpaulso i prefer deal with cross clock domains between namutu and milkymist that try to beat namuru with two clocks doamins20:54
kristianpauland is 16Mhz too low for you MCU async memory interface?20:54
kristianpaulcause namuru with is avalon implementation is almost ready for that, well i think it lacks an ACK signal but thats all20:55
Artyomclock domains - this is what I don't know for now...20:55
Artyomactually mcu-fpga interface is my weak place for now :(20:56
kristianpaulbut you have a non-soft way to test all is okay?20:57
kristianpaullike in the fancy way a gps simulator?20:57
kristianpaulor may be something more cheap and simple like a another board that mimic maxim behavior with a pattern20:58
kristianpaulbut i guess if you can read and write all is okay :)20:58
ArtyomI think I would try to use two possible alternatieves:20:58
Artyom1. Like it is done in gp2021. One namuru channel can be used as signal generator20:59
Artyom2. I have access to simple gps-simulator. May be I will try to use it too. But I don't like this device :(21:00
kristianpauloh, wait you mean i can generate fake gps signals with namuru?? (even with no 10.23 atomic clock ;))21:01
Artyomyes, there is no problem to use one namuru channel as signal generator... I don't see any problems21:02
kristianpaulhe, well i never tought about it..21:02
ArtyomI read about it in gp2021 datasheet...21:03
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (amp fun) ;-)))21:07
kristianpaulArtyom_: so, your current namuru software work flow is: init NCO -> set PRN LEY -> SET both prog TIC and ACCUM TIC - > SET EPOCH21:08
kristianpaulthen keep polling status and read accumulators just after?21:09
kristianpaulgraph it somwhere and find a peak :)21:09
kristianpauli remenber from gp2021 datasheet it suguest some loop like that21:09
kristianpauli just dint think yet about how to stimate a threshold..21:10
ArtyomLast version is left on my work. My old version has the following flow: TIC periode -> accum periode -> cho_prn_key -> ch0_carr_nco -> ch0_code_nco. Then polling mcu-pin. Then reading 1. status 2. new_data. If new_data[1]='1' then output accumulators21:16
Artyomit's not difficult to chose threshold. You can record correlators output (better to recors sqrt(i^2 + q^2) for early, prompt and late)21:17
Artyomusually there is a high peak when carr_nco and code slew are close to what satellite is transmitting21:21
ArtyomJust remember this value and compare it to the case when carr_nco or code_slew are far from what satellite is transmitting21:22
ArtyomAnd choose a threshold near the peak value (a little smaller)21:23
ArtyomOf course you can calculate this value more strictly21:23
ArtyomYou can use Neiman-Pirson law, for example. But it will demand some time to learn theory...21:24
Artyomit;s time for me to leave. gn ;)21:26
rjeffrieswpwrak maybe you can pitch Ben Nanonote as a VGA tester?21:34
Last message repeated 1 time(s).21:35
kristianpaulrjeffries: ben nanonote as ECG :-)21:39
rjeffrieskristianpaul you can fund the medical malpractice insurance for wolfspraul21:41
rjeffrieswarning: I make no assertion this project has adequate degree of open-ness. but it is interesting (to me)21:46
kristianpaulokay i'dome of right clicks... should i use bash or makefiles ?22:18
Action: kristianpaul choosed bash22:27
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