#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2011-08-06

kristianpaulhttp://cdsweb.cern.ch/journal/CERNBulletin/2011/32/News%20Articles/137259900:08
awrc3-0x4d: after added an external pullup 10K to 3V3, still doesn't stay at a steady 3.3V level. ;-) it must be pulled low either on route loop or fpga's AB17 output failed. ;-)03:35
awI now stop to check it and go for others. ;-)03:35
wolfspraulyeah03:36
wolfspraulsounds like next step for 0x4d is to replace the fpga?03:36
awno, I would like to take x-ray rather than directly replace fpga, btw, i just realized that we currently no spartan-6 available though. It's out of this run.03:37
awso we may need to prepare few right away. ;-)03:38
awi could ask ALLtek vendor to know if have stocks next Monday and get some ones. :)03:39
wolfspraulthe entire 0x4d case doesn't look too interesting to me actually. we are not trying to have a yield of 100%...03:40
wolfspraulmuch more important to figure out the flash and impedance issues, just move 0x4d to the end of the line03:40
awsure...i am going to check others.03:40
wolfspraulhaving a few s-6 in stock is probably a good idea still, but I wouldn't stock more than 2 or 3 right now03:41
wolfsprauljust if a very interesting case comes up, or if we really believe that a replacement can result in a sellable board, with high probability03:41
wolfspraulwhich will be rare, so 2 is enough :-)03:41
awsure...so I still get them a call next Monday at least to check if they are available. ;-)03:42
awokay03:42
awnow check 0x3e. ;-)03:43
aw0x3e: Impedance of TP33 (5V) is good that after took out u7/u19/u20, that was expected though. good news. ;-)03:52
aw0x3e: flashed successfully.04:02
rohre04:05
rohnice progess04:06
aw0x3e: now fully tested and rendered 10 times well.04:53
Artyomhi kristianpaul. Are you here?05:20
kristianpaulArtyom: hey05:23
kristianpaulYes i still :)05:23
Artyomwhat is the time now in the place where you live? ;)05:23
ArtyomHow is your success with namuru?05:24
kristianpaulBuga, Colombia, 00:24 05:24
kristianpaul(namuru) just realizing accum interrupt signals is asserted low just a after read starus register05:25
kristianpauls/signals/signal05:25
kristianpaulArtyom: are you in moscow?05:26
Artyomyes, now i'm in msk05:27
kristianpauli'm a bit lost, i tought accum interrupt flag had a constant rate of intterupts but seems is not..05:28
ArtyomI can explain this behaviour05:29
ArtyomAccum interrupt flag has a constant rate in case when you read status_reg fast enough05:31
kristianpaulyes i realized that today05:32
Artyomthis is correct behavoir05:32
kristianpaulbut accumulators behave same way?05:32
kristianpaulor they automcatically are overwritten?05:33
rjeffriesHapp Qi Xi Day all05:33
rjeffrieshttps://plus.google.com/u/0/105380789526486529070/posts/JKd8kEiFd8D05:33
Artyomaccumulators are updated every 1 ms. 05:33
kristianpaulbut this update is in sync with accum interrupt flag?05:34
kristianpaulyes, if i read faster that accum flag freq i guess05:34
kristianpaulyeah05:38
ArtyomIf you don't read accumulators within 1 ms then their value will be lost. (It will be overwritten by the new value)05:38
kristianpauli'm polling accumulators right now, but results is just zero05:38
kristianpaulof course i dint implement the interrupt handling, thats the weekend task :)05:39
rohhey kristianpaul 05:41
ArtyomI did the same way: I used polling. ;)05:41
kristianpaulbut i'm getting zeros..05:41
wolfspraulArtyom: good to see you. We have another very active member in Moscow, his nick is kyak05:41
wolfsprauljust fyi :-)05:41
kristianpaulroh: i wanted to askyou if you work with air compressed engines in your hackerspace :)05:41
Artyomwolfspraul: Good to know that I'm not alone here ;)05:41
Artyomkristianpaul: you get zeros when you read accumulators?05:42
kristianpaulyup05:42
rohkristianpaul: not so much yet.. but we got a compressor now and some tools we will install05:43
rohone of our guys used it to spray on paint already, and we will install some piping to have compressed air outlets at multiple workspaces all the time05:43
rohi think it will be used mostly to clean stuff or to pump up bike tires05:44
Artyomkristianpaul: and what about status_register? Is is also all-zeros?05:44
kristianpaullet me check05:45
rohthe compressor is noisy so it will go into the cellar below the hackspace (we can still hear it) and have remote power wiring to switch it on when needed only (it has a 50 or 80 litre reservoir, so it will only work intermittently)05:46
kristianpaulArtyom: zero indeed05:52
kristianpaulso accum_enable_s is not well. let me check that counter again i think i missed the accum_q = 0 on accum_enable counter ;)05:55
Artyomkristianpaul: btw. For now I have chosen slightly different way. I work a lot with softosgps. My aim is to extract all necessary only for making tracking loops. And to make it's soft-correlator close to namuru.06:23
Artyommy aim is to understand hard-gps receivers features. And osgps is very close to hardware receivers (unlike gps-sdr or matlab gps-receiver by Akos)06:23
kristianpaulArtyom: you mean you want to move tu pure soft correlation? no more hardware aid?06:32
kristianpaulactually i was working with only osgps in the past, just that i dint realized it dint worked with complex data06:34
kristianpaulthat was before i switched the sige fronted to real mode of course06:34
kristianpaulwell, should be easy in theory just a net stream from acquisition core06:36
kristianpauland if it localhost much better :)06:37
kristianpaulis that what you mean right?06:37
kristianpaulbut yeah osgps is very close, not simd dependent, portable C code, and i guess not so cpuhungry if you want to port to the arm board you told me last time06:41
kristianpaulmay be 6 channels?06:41
ArtyomI mean another ;) I want to make in software a program that will be very close to what I want to make in hardware. This will help me to check all algorithms in software because it is much easier and then I will switch to hardware.06:45
kristianpaulArtyom: ah, so you already undertood the soft pll algorythm from osgps? i never did.. :(06:45
kristianpaulwhen you mean switch to hardware will not be namuru? had you in mind starting a another correlator?06:46
ArtyomOh, yes. I can give you a couple of links (about PLL/FLL/DLL) that I consider very informative.06:46
kristianpaulmay be using PLL's like the project you point me last week?06:46
kristianpaul(links) sure go ahed !06:47
kristianpauli can add it to wiki later, sure06:47
kristianpaulfor now i still making to work namuru first :)06:47
kristianpaulmay be there is even a lib like fftw for PLL and related stuff somwhere :-)06:48
ArtyomAnyway all my work is based on osgps and namuru (I don't want to invent a bicycle ;) )06:49
kristianpaulgood :)06:49
ArtyomThe project that I gave you a link is interesting for me in a way how they debug their hardware. I tried to examine the code but it seemed too difficult for me...06:50
kristianpaulquoting wpwrak essays, famous last words :-)06:53
Artyomin this work PLL/FLL/DLL basics are described very good: http://plan.geomatics.ucalgary.ca/papers/PHD%20Thesis_GPS-INS%20Deep%20Integration_Guojiang%20Gao.pdf (Chapter 2 and Appendix A).06:59
kristianpaulpersonally, i'm done with softcorrelation for now, namuru should work, but if a move to software based processing only it will be in the nanonote07:16
kristianpaulwith milkymist hard aid is a must :)07:16
kristianpaulArtyom: i'm going bed now, getting  bachk in some hrs07:29
Artyomgn ;) I will be back after 12 - 13 hours07:31
wolfspraulrejon: any feedback on the news? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-0108:56
wolfspraulI'm almost done08:56
wolfspraulin the future I need to get this out little by little as it happens...08:56
wolfspraulbut a solid roundup is still good for archival purposes and people who run into the project later, I think08:57
wolfspraulwpwrak: every video has a download link now :-) makes your life a little easier09:01
wolfspraulmost pictures are a lot smaller09:01
wolfspraulvideos smaller09:01
wolfspraulstill a few more touches then I'm ready for feedback again09:01
wolfspraulI put the Elphel Eyesis up there, including its price of 24,000 USD. A super cool piece of hardware, and all GPL licensed :-)09:02
wolfspraulthis thing is really selling to Google Streetview competitors all around the world...09:03
wolfspraulElphel gives GPL discounts btw09:04
wolfsprauldone, feedback welcome09:33
rejonwolfspraul: yes, each item should just go out on the qihardware ping.fm account10:05
rejonwhich spreads to facebook, twitter, and identica10:05
rejonthe barrier for news is too high10:05
rejonplus, sat not such a good day to launch news10:05
wolfspraultrue, I won't push it out today10:17
wolfsprauland as for 'each item', well, let's just start :-)10:17
wolfspraulwhen we meet in a few days we can make a news push out plan, so I take on some regular update jobs and you take on others?10:17
wolfspraulif we coordinate will be better10:17
wolfspraulI can push this out Monday morning, I will use the usual rss feed (don't know how many subscribers), as well as discussion (about 350 subscribers) and announcement (about 950) mailing lists10:18
wolfspraulfrom that I typically get about 500-800 readers10:19
rejonwolfspraul: sounds good10:41
rejoni will help push out monday morning10:41
rejonon social media10:42
rejonand on fab blog10:42
wolfspraulperfect, yes. let's do monday morning asia time.10:42
wolfspraul8-8, lucky number :-)10:42
rejon:)10:42
rejon88 million dollars10:42
wpwrakwolfspraul: the "buy" section is a little weird ;-) but i see that you're carefully building up the expectations of prospective M1 buyers ;-)12:14
wolfspraulwhy is it weird? it lists available products, with links to shops12:14
wpwrak(download link) excellent !!12:14
wolfspraulwell, thanks for reporting12:15
wolfspraulthat's really helpful12:15
wpwrakwell, atben/atusb are two similar but different products. and more confusingly, you usually need them as a pair - and indeed there's a combo :)12:15
wolfspraulsmall details that actually improve something :-)12:15
wpwrakand of course the eyesis is a little freakish ;-)12:15
wolfspraulthat's why it's listed together12:15
wolfspraulwe can change the price to the combo price12:16
wolfspraulnot freakish at all12:16
wolfspraulI don't care how many people ignore Elphel, or how weird the founder is. Can you believe that they do really high-tech GPL licensed hardware since 2001?12:16
wolfsprauland that they give 'gpl discounts' :-)12:16
wolfspraulI think that's all very cool12:16
wolfsprauland these products are real, they are selling12:16
wpwrakif you put the combo price and write "atben+atusb" or maybe even "... combo", that would work, yes12:16
wpwrak(elphel) oh, they're cool, no doubt about it. but it's still a little outlandlish in this comparison. sort of: "bicycle, scooter, monthly pass for the train, space shuttle"12:19
wolfspraulthe Elphel Eyesis would be a nice purchase for a university who really wants to push forward on copyleft high-tech12:19
wolfspraulyes12:19
wolfspraul:-)12:19
wolfspraulI would put a GPL licensed space shuttle there, definitely12:19
gnutoowhat can you do with an Elphel?12:22
gnutoofor instance stuff that doesn't involve spying someone12:23
wolfspraulit's a camera12:23
wpwrakhmm, and what does "slow fidelity" mean ? reluctantly behaving decently ? sounds like the kind of expression rejon would dig up ;-)12:23
wolfspraulall from him12:23
wolfspraulan Elphel is a camera, first of all12:23
wpwrakgnutoo: not spying ? where's all the fun in it then ? :)12:23
wolfspraulAptina CMOS sensor, hooked up to an fpga, hooked up to a regular (sort-of) CPU12:23
wpwrakhah, knew it ! ;-))12:23
wolfspraulthe CPU is running Linux, the fpga is running a GPL licensed IC design, and the electrical design is published under gpl as well12:24
wpwrak"slow fidelity" is confusing for me. at first, it reads a bit like "slow trust", i.e., "initial distrust/scepticism that's overcome with time" (which would kinda make sense), but when i go into the proper definition of the word, the construct doesn't really make sense12:26
GNUtoo|laptopaobut the elphel camera, I always wondered what could be done with it that don't involve spying people12:30
wolfspraulI don't understand your question12:31
wolfspraulyou mean every camera can 'spy on people'? what is your definition of 'spy'?12:31
GNUtoo|laptoplike putting the camera in a street 12:31
wolfspraulI just walked you through the design :-) Aptina CMOS sensor hooked up to fpga (xilinx-3) hooked up to CPU12:31
GNUtoo|laptopfor instance law enforcement etc...12:31
wpwrak"observe without the observer being clearly evident" ;-)12:31
GNUtoo|laptopor monitoring licenses plates of cars12:32
wolfspraulwell I still don't understand the question12:32
wolfspraulyes afaik a lot of high-speed traffic control cameras use fpgas as well12:32
GNUtoo|laptoptheses 2 things are spying12:32
wpwraklet's ban all cameras. people can do evil things with them.12:33
wpwrakand let's not forget cable binders. very evil.12:33
wolfspraulGNUtoo|laptop: I can try to honestly answer your questions, but I need to understand them first :-)12:33
wpwrakneedless to say, kitchen knives have to go, too.12:33
wpwrakand hot coffee. too easily weaponized.12:33
GNUtoo|laptopbecause the elphel camera looks like one that you put in a street12:34
GNUtoo|laptopbecause I don't see who from the community would buy such thing12:34
GNUtoo|laptopI'm not saying it's bad12:35
wolfspraulif you have such concerns, don't you think making a camera in a GPL licensed electrical design and with a GPL licensed IC design is a good thing?12:35
wpwrakin fact, anything involving heat or fire. or cables you could use to strangle someone. so no fridge either. a sandwich kept at room temperature laced with preservatives is perfectly suitable food for anyone.12:35
GNUtoo|laptopI'm trying to understand what good things it can be used for12:35
wolfspraulElphel has nothing to do with 'spying', although it is quite possible that some of their customers are 'spying' (I am unable to define that right now)12:35
wolfspraulwell12:35
wolfspraula camera :-)12:35
wolfspraulit's a camera you can log into with SSH, and control a lot of the hardware with PHP12:36
GNUtoo|laptopah in ephel.com I see that the camera are a lot smaller than I tought12:36
GNUtoo|laptopok12:36
wolfsprauland if you wnat to go pro, you can edit the IC design that is processing the raw data stream from the Aptina sensor12:36
GNUtoo|laptopcan you do stuff with gstreamer?12:36
wolfspraulI think it can feed into it, probably12:36
GNUtoo|laptopwow nice12:36
wolfspraulthey also had a hardware Ogg Theora encoder working in older models, but nobody cared so they stopped maintaining and improving it12:37
GNUtoo|laptopah ok12:37
GNUtoo|laptopI really wonder what cool hacks can be done with it12:38
wolfspraulthe one thing that would be really good for Elphel, and us, is if they would get more support on upstreaming stuff12:38
GNUtoo|laptopor cool stuff12:38
wolfspraulbut I'm unable to help them on that as well, too much work12:38
wolfspraulwell12:38
wolfspraulbuilding upon your earlier question, one 'cool stuff' would be if a government mandated a 100% free and open design for all their traffic control cameras12:39
wolfspraulthat way we could make sure that the data is only used for calculating a toll (for example), rather than for building a complete movement database for later data mining12:40
wolfspraulunless you think all cameras are bad, toll roads are bad, etc. then we don't need Elphel indeed.12:40
wolfsprauland also not Aptina, I guess12:40
wolfspraulor Omnivision12:40
wolfspraulElphel's customer base is very diverse12:41
GNUtoo|laptopyes, the message of upstreaming stuff is hard to spread12:41
wolfspraulfrom farmers watching grapes grow and ripen12:41
wolfspraulto submarines12:41
wolfspraulto tanks12:41
wolfspraulto dentists12:41
GNUtoo|laptopok12:42
GNUtoo|laptopfor farmers it's nice12:42
wpwrak(news) nit-picking ... if you can insert a line break in a list without the list looking weird, it may be a good idea to put line breaks between distinct focal points in one item. e.g., before "Earlier" in the mico32 core release.12:42
GNUtoo|laptoptanks are less nice12:42
GNUtoo|laptophttp://www3.elphel.com/importwiki?title=Research12:44
GNUtoo|laptopnice12:44
GNUtoo|laptopunder-ice imaging wow12:45
GNUtoo|laptoprobotics can be a good usage too12:45
GNUtoo|laptopwow high altitude baloon, that's great too12:48
GNUtoo|laptopalso it could be used for scientific purposes12:48
GNUtoo|laptopfor instance bird watching12:48
GNUtoo|laptopanyway I already have a free software/free-but-not-copyleft camera12:48
wolfspraulwhich one?12:49
GNUtoo|laptopthe bug2.0 + its camera module12:49
GNUtoo|laptops/camera/hardware camera/12:49
wolfspraulthe two important elements Elphel adds to the free part is the image processing in the fpga, as well as the free electrical design12:49
GNUtoo|laptopok12:49
wolfspraulnothing against your bug2.0, just saying :-)12:49
wolfsprauland Elphel is known for high-tech, stereoscopic cameras, omnivision cameras (eyesis), etc.12:50
GNUtoo|laptopthe bug 2.0 is a standard omap + modules(like camera gps etc...)12:50
wolfspraulbookscanning cameras12:50
GNUtoo|laptopbookscanning is great12:50
GNUtoo|laptopcould be used for gutinberg project12:50
wolfspraulElphel 323 is a special bookscanning camera12:52
GNUtoo|laptopok12:52
wolfspraulwpwrak: combo, line break before 'earlier' - added12:53
wolfspraulthe reason I like Elphel and I believe it's deeply in copyleft hardware land is because of their extensive and innovative use of lots of free software to drive the performance of their cameras12:53
wolfspraulif you build a breakout board of a proprietary IC, even if you publish the (very simple) schematics in Eagle, so what. maybe that's 'a drop' of copyleft hardware12:54
wolfspraulcompared to that Elphel is more like a river :-)12:54
wolfspraulof course they could do much better, unfortunately the collaboration with other folks is lacking, partially because of the stallman-like personality of the founder12:55
wolfspraulimho12:55
GNUtoo|laptopok12:55
GNUtoo|laptopI saw their GPL agreement, that's very nice12:55
wolfspraulhe's a perfectionist, and has to do everything himself12:56
GNUtoo|laptopok12:56
wolfspraulmechanical, layout, electrical, entire software stack12:56
wolfspraulhe's even innovating on PCB production techniques12:56
GNUtoo|laptopwow12:56
wolfspraulbut working for him or with him must be a pain :-)12:56
GNUtoo|laptopok12:56
GNUtoo|laptopI'll go out, bbl12:59
wolfspraulwpwrak: if you have more linebreaks or anything else, let me know13:00
wolfspraulcurrently release is planned for Monday morning13:00
wolfspraulfrom my side it's finished unless I get feedback13:00
wpwraki would still make some of the images smaller. but maybe that's just me :) btw, instead of resizing, you can also cut out the central part. e.g., a thumbnail of adam's table could show less keyboard and monitor 13:10
wpwrak(copyleft hardware explained) nice idea for a section ! that captures it very well13:11
wolfspraulthanks13:12
wolfspraulit was 'copyleft hardware theory' first13:12
wolfspraulbut then I thought that's a real downer13:12
wolfspraulthen some other even worse ideas, finally 'explained'13:12
wolfsprauladded a few more line breaks, same idea as above (if I understood it right)13:13
wpwrakfor a proper "theory" section, there would have to be a few differential equations ;-)13:15
wpwrak(line breaks) very nice ! they also increase the vertical text size a little, improving the text/image size balance. "Yi Zhang finished the Milkymist One box design" is still a bit lost between images, but i can't think of a quick fix :-(13:18
wpwraksince you have jon's talk twice (once the video, then the slides), maybe put a pointer from video to slides ? or maybe even in both directions ?13:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, do you use "Free" to disambiguate from "gratis but that's all you get" ?13:21
wpwrakfor the packageology, maybe a few introductory words would be good. e.g., "The names of component packages are often confusing and vary among manufacturers. This is Werner's first step (for small logic gates) towards a packageology."13:25
wolfspraulalright, one by one13:26
wolfspraulI try to stay away from ambiguous use of free13:26
wolfspraulso mostly I say 'free software', then it should be clear13:26
wolfspraulshould :-)13:27
wolfspraulif I have to make a point I say free-as-in-beer or free-as-in-speech13:27
wolfspraulbut that's ugly13:27
wolfspraulmaybe I start to use libre more, don't know13:27
wpwrakfor the anatomy of a datasheet, how about "Some data sheets don't contain all the information necessary to make Copyleft Hardware. Here is Werner's anatomy of a datasheet."13:29
wpwrak(i.e., include a problem statement)13:29
wpwrak(free) yeah, i was asking because of the "free scripted CAD tools". i'm sure there's a lot of "FREE CAD !!! DOWNLOAD 3 DAYS TRIAL VERSION NOW !!!"13:31
wpwrak(registration - with e-mail verification - required, naturally)13:34
wolfspraullinked jon's video and slides (slides point to video media page because the video above has no section entry)13:36
wolfspraulchanged some text, more now13:36
wolfspraulwell ok, what do you propose? software libre scripted CAD tools? nah13:37
wolfspraulscripted libre CAD tools?13:37
wolfspraulI think they will stay away from libre, so libre seems a safe choice.13:37
wolfspraulbut I never used it before :-)13:38
wolfspraulonly my recent openoffice apt-get update forced me to now launch 'libreoffice' instead of 'ooffice'13:38
wolfspraulI feel so libre13:38
wpwraki tend to just capitalize "Free" in mid-sentence when i want to emphasize the nature13:39
wolfspraulbtw, thanks a lot for helping me with introductions to your short little essays there13:39
wolfspraulI think they are very valuable and important, and those intros help a lot13:40
wolfspraulwriting headlines for your little gem posts is not easy, unless I just copy/paste the subject line of your mail :-)13:40
wolfspraulor else it would require deep thinking...13:40
wpwrakbeing the self-serving bastard i am, i'm always happy to help people like my stuff better ;-)13:40
wolfspraulcapitalized free, phew13:41
wolfspraulthat's cheap, but ok13:41
wolfspraulwanna do that?13:41
wolfsprauljust look at your example above :-)13:41
wolfspraulyou already capitalized it all13:41
wpwrakit's simple and reasonably common :)13:41
wolfspraulFREE CAD !!! ...13:41
wolfsprauldone13:42
wpwraknaw, FREE != Free. also, i wouldn't trust on "Free" working at the beginning of a sentence or in a title :)13:42
wpwrakdo you want to mention that navigation board project that's looking for someone to put it into a ben ? http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-June/008344.html13:43
wolfspraulok I moved it to 08-08, the release date http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-0813:44
wpwrakhehe :)13:44
wolfspraulI don't want to mention it :-)13:44
wolfspraulif you do, you have to overcome the power of the 'edit' buttons...13:44
wolfspraulI first want to see someone actually using it13:44
wolfspraulneed some more proof of life :-)13:45
wpwrakok. just wondered if you has overlooked it or if you intentionally didn't mention it.13:45
wolfspraulnot overlooked13:46
wolfspraulI'm not against it, but again. I want to see some software power, somewhere.13:47
wolfspraulwhere is it? I don't know. Maybe I haven't searched enough.13:47
wolfspraulwho is developing? (the software)13:47
wolfspraulwe could list a thousand boards from sparkfun that someone 'could' hookup to the Ben, with UBB13:48
wolfspraulwho is doing it?13:48
wolfspraulif there is a video, that'd be cool13:48
wolfspraulor some software, some app that uses it13:48
wpwrak(who's nehin the nav board) don't remember. the thing has been around for a while for gta02. not sure if people are actually using it.13:48
wolfspraulyep13:48
wolfspraul:-)13:48
wpwrakbut i suppose at lesat the developers have some use for it ;-)13:48
wolfspraulthey have a history of soldering together badly broken boards and then get stuck in software land, mostly at the very beginning13:49
wpwrakour openmoko distributors ought to know :)13:49
wolfspraulso to me it's an obscure board, is it really available? anybody already developed ANYTHING for it?13:50
wolfspraulI much much rather spend some time to document our connections to Arduinos better13:50
wolfspraulavrdude, all that13:50
wolfspraulthose are high quality boards, readily available, large existing user base and active development13:51
wpwrakheh, avrdude, ride into obscuristan ;-)13:51
wolfspraulthat's my thinking13:51
wolfsprauloh no13:51
wolfspraulnot on my end13:51
wpwrakthe file /etc/avrdude.conf is quite something to behold. a worthy match for sendmail.cf :)13:51
wolfspraulavrdude and friends as well as anything atben/atusb related is core stuff for me13:52
wolfsprauldirtpan!13:52
wolfspraul:-)13:52
wolfspraulso anyway13:52
wolfspraulthe navigation board is too obscure for me13:52
wolfspraulI need to see a lot more software, development, and proof of it. which I think we will never get :-)13:53
wpwrakpity that you didn't follow up with this. he may think it's supposed greatness self-explaining :)13:54
Action: kristianpaul wonder if chdk do hardware reverse eng as well15:26
kristianpaulbut nah, no sense if canon manufacture its own CMOS stuff..15:27
GNUtoo|laptophi kristianpaul I've a CHDK camera15:28
GNUtoo|laptopfirst CHDK is not an OS15:28
GNUtoo|laptopit's an application on top of cannon OS15:28
kristianpaulyes i know15:28
kristianpaulbut it frees !15:28
GNUtoo|laptopok15:28
GNUtoo|laptopit unlock some possibilities15:29
kristianpaulyeah, is in the name no?15:29
GNUtoo|laptopbut for me it's not sufficent since it doens't replace cannon OS15:29
kristianpauloh, sure i think a lot fo people said same thing when gnutools ran on unix ;)15:29
kristianpauli mean, if okay think like that... but afaik i cant affor a ephel camera for example15:30
GNUtoo|laptop?15:30
GNUtoo|laptopanyway, is there any news about your free GPS stack?15:30
kristianpaulin the 8-8 news yes15:30
GNUtoo|laptopneither do I15:30
GNUtoo|laptopbut maybe you could ask them one for free15:30
kristianpaulnah15:31
GNUtoo|laptopok15:31
kristianpaulno worth, at least i'm willing some improvment with it, wich is not case right now15:31
GNUtoo|laptopyou'll would have to had a use of it and make a cool project with it or contribute to it in some ways to get one tough15:31
GNUtoo|laptops/'ll//15:31
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-08#Milkymist15:32
GNUtoo|laptopbut I've something cool that does camera15:32
GNUtoo|laptopit's a bit buggy unfortunately15:32
GNUtoo|laptopit's a bug 2.015:32
kristianpaulwhat res?15:32
GNUtoo|laptoplet me look15:32
GNUtoo|laptopit's a high res, but may not be high enough for you15:33
kristianpaulhave a number?15:33
kristianpauldoes it have optical zoom? :-)15:33
GNUtoo|laptopwait a sec....my connection is slow15:33
GNUtoo|laptopno zoom15:33
kristianpaulsure sure15:33
GNUtoo|laptophttp://wiki.buglabs.net/index.php/Software:Camera_Module_V4L2_Usage15:33
GNUtoo|laptop2048x153615:34
GNUtoo|laptopis the maximum resolution15:34
kristianpaulnot bad15:34
GNUtoo|laptopthe camera driver is a bit buggy tough15:35
GNUtoo|laptopso sometimes it crash15:35
GNUtoo|laptopbut it's definitely software15:35
GNUtoo|laptopand the bug 2.0 is far better than the 1.x versions15:35
GNUtoo|laptopI never had to send it back15:35
kristianpaulwell, i broke my current canon camera, but i think i'll buy another cheap one for sure as chdk run on it is okay15:35
GNUtoo|laptopok15:35
GNUtoo|laptophmmm: nanonote cannot do camera and milkymist can but isn't that portable, right?15:36
rjeffrieswpwrak wolfspraul the draft of qi-hardware news looks good. one suggestion for improvement15:36
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: abour free gps stack news, i had abeen able to detetect signal but not tracking afaik..15:37
GNUtoo|laptopok15:37
rjeffriesadd a short descripition of what ATben and ATusb are. mention 802.15.4 radio15:37
GNUtoo|laptopwill you continue to work on it?15:37
kristianpaulcurrently and as news 8-8 points i had ported namuru wich is like a free DSP that could help15:37
kristianpauloh, sure, absolutelly15:38
GNUtoo|laptopwow nice15:38
kristianpauli dont give up easilly :)15:38
rjeffriesmtion gola is eventual 6LoWpan protocol support, can be used in Internet of Things (IoT)15:38
GNUtoo|laptoplol ok15:38
kristianpaulbtw are you good with openwrt porting?15:38
GNUtoo|laptopI don't know openwrt at all, I only know how to compile it, and I'm weak in Makefiles15:38
GNUtoo|laptopbut I'm good at openembedded15:38
kristianpauli have an idea but i dont have time to deploy it, and is mostly softwar related task15:38
rjeffrieswpwrak the writeup in this newsletter assumes one knows what the ATben and ATusb do and what they are used for15:39
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: can you port osgps code as it is to oe'15:39
kristianpaul?15:39
GNUtoo|laptopwhat's osgps?15:39
kristianpaulosgps is hosted on sf.net15:39
GNUtoo|laptopyes I could15:39
GNUtoo|laptopaltough to which openembedded should I port?15:40
GNUtoo|laptopthe old or the new one?15:40
kristianpaulosgps is a software correlator and receiver for processing gps raw signals15:40
kristianpaulah...15:40
kristianpaulwell15:40
GNUtoo|laptopthe old one is easier15:40
kristianpaulthere is thisjlime that run in the nanonote, but i dunno how activelly is maintained15:40
GNUtoo|laptopsince I didn't succeed yet at compiling the new one(based on yocto)15:40
kristianpauli think they we're moving to upstream15:40
kristianpaulthats why i pointed osgps15:40
GNUtoo|laptopso I'll talk to jlime people15:40
GNUtoo|laptopI'll duck duck go osgps15:41
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: http://sourceforge.net/projects/osgps/15:41
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: http://home.earthlink.net/~cwkelley/15:41
GNUtoo|laptopok15:41
GNUtoo|laptopI'm already at the sf page15:42
kristianpauli had that idea since time ago, but i dont wanted to get ditracted15:42
rjeffrieswolfspraul rejon this phrase does not communicate meaning (to me) "slow fidelity on the freedom channel" 15:42
GNUtoo|laptopbut my connection is very slow15:42
GNUtoo|laptopand even worse, I'll have no permanant internet in the next days15:42
GNUtoo|laptopbasically I've a far wifi + a vpn15:42
kristianpauland i think with last wpwrak discoveries about sd-like controller in the nanonote, we could sample raw data coming from the gps fronted and stream it to osgps by loopback interface15:43
kristianpauljust i dont want to get distracted up to that yet..15:43
kristianpaulfirst finish namuru support in software side :)15:43
GNUtoo|laptopok15:43
GNUtoo|laptopyou want it to compile for the jlime under nanote right?15:43
GNUtoo|laptopif I do it, will someone do the tests?15:43
GNUtoo|laptopbecause I've non nanonote15:44
kristianpaulah.. i forgot, i tught you had one already :)15:44
kristianpaulwell i can test yes, that dont take too much time15:44
GNUtoo|laptopok15:44
GNUtoo|laptopelse I could ask someone else to test15:44
wolfspraulrjeffries: let's see what rejon thinks. I love it. Communicates a lot of meaning.15:45
kristianpaulalso i wonder how it sell will perform,  fit display.. i have some dump for offline testing15:45
wolfspraulI'll catch up tomorrow...15:46
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: so yes, thats something i wanted to do as another alternative for the gps free stack.. so if you can help will me awesome :)15:46
rjeffrieswolfspraul what does that line of poetry mean to you? I am serious it has a nice ring, but doies not mean anything. ;)15:46
GNUtoo|laptopI can try15:47
GNUtoo|laptopbut I guarantee nothing15:47
kristianpaulosgps is just ansi C90, and a minor asm code that is not used by default and no need in the fure15:48
GNUtoo|laptopI'm not even sure to have the time to do it but if I do I'll try15:48
kristianpaulfure/future15:48
kristianpaulno rush just saying as you initially asked for news :-)15:48
rjeffrieswolfspraul by the way, different topoiuc, as to ATben ATusb, I noticed that later in the document there is a good description. but at first mention as news item, descripotion assumes the reader knows what they are15:48
GNUtoo|laptopok15:49
GNUtoo|laptopit's dead simple15:50
GNUtoo|laptopoe_runmake works15:50
kristianpaul:-)15:51
GNUtoo|laptopI got it for arm15:51
GNUtoo|laptopyou need mips tough15:51
kristianpaulyes15:51
kristianpaulit compile on my yeeloong so i will on the nanonote15:51
kristianpaulactually i dint cross compiled as the current openwrt toolchain is for x86_64 :(15:52
GNUtoo|laptopso I guess I neeed to cross compile a jlime image15:52
kristianpauls/i/it15:52
GNUtoo|laptopthat require some space15:52
GNUtoo|laptopI'll have to make some space....15:52
kristianpaulor15:53
kristianpaulwait15:53
kristianpauli'm okay with binaries15:53
GNUtoo|laptopI've no mips toolchain15:53
kristianpaul;)15:53
GNUtoo|laptopso I've to cross compile an image15:53
GNUtoo|laptopthen I do that:15:53
GNUtoo|laptopbitbake devshell15:53
GNUtoo|laptopit create a devshell in tmpdir/deploy/addon/15:53
GNUtoo|laptopyou source it15:54
GNUtoo|laptopyou go into the osgps dir15:54
GNUtoo|laptopand type:15:54
GNUtoo|laptopoe_runmake15:54
GNUtoo|laptopwait some seconds15:54
GNUtoo|laptopand then you get a binary15:54
kristianpaulthis oe_runmake is new isnt?15:54
kristianpaullooks very handy15:54
GNUtoo|laptopno15:54
kristianpauloh15:55
kristianpaul:)15:55
GNUtoo|laptopit's a wrapper to make15:55
GNUtoo|laptoplike make CC= LD= etc...15:55
GNUtoo|laptopwith the right gcc the right -I etc...15:55
GNUtoo|laptopit's part of the devshell....15:55
GNUtoo|laptopsince the Makefile is written correctly the result is that:15:56
GNUtoo|laptopfile SoftOSGPS => SoftOSGPS: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.16, not stripped15:56
kristianpaulhum15:58
GNUtoo|laptopso I could schedule a build for you15:58
GNUtoo|laptopafter compiling om-gta02 images with the new oe15:58
kristianpaulsure no hurry15:58
GNUtoo|laptopelse if you have a fast enough x86 I can help you to do it15:59
GNUtoo|laptopit's not that hard15:59
GNUtoo|laptopmaybe there is even a faster way: bitbake devshell directly without the image15:59
GNUtoo|laptopand if there are no huge deps it should work15:59
GNUtoo|laptopthat'll keep the space usage minimal15:59
GNUtoo|laptops/minimal/low/16:00
kristianpaulif do it here. it will be a openwrt minimal build i think..16:00
GNUtoo|laptopthen use openwrt toolchain to compile that16:02
GNUtoo|laptopI've no idea how tough16:02
GNUtoo|laptopall I can offer is binary+howto or binaries+recipe16:02
kristianpaulfor openwrt? ;)16:02
kristianpaul(kidding)16:02
GNUtoo|laptopfor whatever16:02
GNUtoo|laptoplet me look16:03
GNUtoo|laptopit only depends on libc:16:03
kristianpauloh really. yes openwrt will be nice !16:03
GNUtoo|laptop 0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library: [libm.so.6]16:03
GNUtoo|laptop 0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library: [libc.so.6]16:03
GNUtoo|laptopso the binary will work on openwrt if openwrt uses eglibc/glibc16:03
GNUtoo|laptopif it doesn't it won't work16:04
kristianpaulyes, a openwrt makefile/feed whatever will be nice16:04
GNUtoo|laptopbut I don't know how to make openwrt Makefiles16:04
kristianpaulalso i can reuse it and try on milkymist ;)16:04
GNUtoo|laptopI can only make a compatible package16:04
kristianpaulcompatibl with openwrt?16:05
GNUtoo|laptopI mean a binary that would run on openwrt16:05
GNUtoo|laptopwhat does openwrt uses as libc?16:05
kristianpaululibc?16:05
GNUtoo|laptopare you sure?16:05
kristianpaulno :(16:05
GNUtoo|laptopbecause I will have to build something close to openwrt16:05
GNUtoo|laptoplike micro-uclibc distro16:06
kristianpaul:/16:06
kristianpaulbetter will be the openwrt makefile :-)16:06
kristianpaultake you time anyway.16:06
kristianpaulbbl16:06
GNUtoo|laptopyes of course but I don't know how to do that16:07
GNUtoo|laptopelse I can do a jlime-compatible package and recipe16:07
wpwrakrjeffries: are you referring to the "buy" section ? or the one on testing/making atben/atusb ?17:19
rjeffrieswpwrak the BUY section is fine. But that comes after the testing.making which could use an extra sentence or two. IMO17:21
rjeffrieswpwrak how much have you studied the ingenic 4670 data sheet etc? and do we know if it is in full production, designed into shipping products?17:22
wpwrak(4760) superficially, hunt and peck style17:23
wpwrak(4760) wolfgang would have to get that information from ingenic17:23
wpwrak(wpan) hmm. maybe add "IEEE 802.15.4 wireless" to "Werner finished the design of the ben-wpan boards"17:24
wpwrakrjeffries: btw, what did the examination of the data sheet of that wlan chip yield ?17:25
rjeffrieswpwrak you have different interests than I do. I was interested in the low-power draw. I apologize for having mentioned it here. My mistake.17:34
rjeffrieswpwrak wolfspraul has lost interest in Ingenic SOCs. My objective observation.17:36
rjeffrieswpwrak I did read your document and learned a lot. Thank you.17:36
rjeffriesIngenic SOCs are a pretty good price/features/performance "bargain"17:38
rjeffriesa next product that leverages everything learned by the Ben Nanonote experince could be interesting. I wonder what the required investmenbt would be, assuming one abandons need for consumer electronics stype case.17:39
wpwrak(low-power) you're referring to the wlan chip or to the 4760 ?17:44
wpwrakwhat would be the point of not having a good case ?17:45
wpwraki don't think wolfgang has lost interest in ingenic. it's just that he's saturated with M1 for now.17:45
kristianpaulyeah18:48
kristianpauli mean ingenic interest, we still in transition :)18:48
rjeffrieswpwrak my low-power comment was about the wi-fi chip. as to consumer electronics case for a nanonote follow-on, should ther eevery be one, it adds a lot of expense. the current nanonote case is too restrictive IMO.19:31
kristianpaulnice a openwrt xburst minimal image is kinda small, just 8Mb :)19:36
rjeffrieswpwrak ahile I understand you opinion re future nanonote case, we could get a nbew system done a lot faster if designing a case was a second effort.19:43
kristianpaulhe, osgps run not so smoth on the nanonote.. :)19:57
tuxbrain_HxxHhzokristianpaul:(osgps) you already had attached hardware to NN?20:25
wpwraki don't think wolfgang has lost interest in ingenic. it's just that he's saturated with M1 for now.20:27
wpwrakoops20:27
wpwrakrjeffries: yes, a care is expensive in terms of work and investment. but then, there's also a difference between a nanonote and yet another devel board :)20:28
rjeffriess/care/case  ;)20:29
wpwrakrjeffries: that wouldn't preclude spinning off an interim prototype into a separate product, though. but i don't think the case for doing all this is very strong if all we aim for is yet another devel board20:29
rjeffrieswpwrak too bad you dislike tablet form factor. a samll (7 inches would be my prefernce) copyleft tablet would be well accepted methinks. Case design isso much easier. oh wait, I forgot, BT is not allowed. so no Bluetooth keybards can be considered.20:31
wpwrakrjeffries: (wlan chip) ah, so you wanted me to review the technical specs for you, without actually intending this to be of any relevance for what we do. got me :)20:31
rjeffrieswpwrak do not fear I will not bother you again with that or other cvhips20:31
rjeffriessaid with a smile, never fear20:32
wpwrak(bt) find a sufficiently open BT chip and we can talk :) i don't share wolfgang's more fundamentalist positions regarding certain technologies, but simply questions of what chips we can use without running into massive technical troubles very often lead to very similar conclusions20:33
rjeffrieswpwrak after 18 months of shipping the acceptance og Ben Nanonote is very low. Too soon to say how MM will do, that is a whole differnt kettle of fish.20:33
wpwrakyou're preaching to the choir ;-)20:34
wpwrakone problem of the ben is also simply that it's "old". if exactly the same device was a new product today, it would probably draw as much attention as back then20:35
rjeffriesif a person desires a small mobile device with high useability and functionality (e.g. can connect to the internet when you ar at a hotspot) then indeed a non-copyleft Android or similar product works well 20:35
wpwrakthat's also why i'm pushing for a ya. provide new meat ;-)20:35
rjeffriesbut I am drifting into the weeds, showing my lack of dedication to copyleft philosophy.20:36
wpwrakyes, i think android and iphone cover the communication-heavy sector well20:36
rjeffriesok serious business here:20:36
rjeffrieswhat amount of engineering effort (ignore FOR THIS DISCUSSION) all teh associated and vital back end stuff20:37
wpwrakwhat's "back end stuff" ?20:37
rjeffrieswhat would it take to do a fresh design using 4760 as SOC and going to a lot more memory, atc. if you wre the designers, how many man months of design?20:38
rjeffriesprocurement, manufacturing, testing all the non-design part.20:38
rjeffriesin other words, new design all the way to board layout reday to go buy some PCBs20:39
rjeffriess/raday/ready20:39
wpwrakthat means also a number of prototype runs, etc. or is that what you refer to as "back end" ?20:40
rjeffriesi mean only design a new board, readyt to buy first 5 protos20:41
rjeffriesI know not your fav engineer, but Carlos & friends did a quick hack to Nanonote to create the SAKC. I am sorry that stalled20:42
rjeffriesalsthough the fpga aspecty was not my passion. I'd rather accomodate an AVR to get a lot of io capability. I know, you don't care for that idea either.,;)20:42
wpwrakyou mean a paper exercise ? well, that would depend on the feature set. maybe a month if it's basically just the cpu. considerably more if you want a lot of peripherals or the peripherals are difficult to source. of course, since you're excluding any sort of design verification, one can just make arbitrary assumptions about the peripherals. it won't work anyway ;-)20:44
wpwraki.e., what i'm saying is that this is not how you obtain anything usable. there is always feedback in the process. open loop never works. and very often, you need to test subsystems in isolation. not a full functional test, but you need to get actual devices and test them.20:46
kristianpaultuxbrain_HxxHhzo: nah, just was wondering first if the software can run decenlty20:47
wpwrakthe problem of what carlos did was that the design wasn't suitable for industrial production. maybe their new ones are. maybe they're hand-soldering them. i like the simplicity of their latest SIE.20:47
kristianpaulmajor issue with SIE i have, was the switc from usb power and external source20:48
kristianpauland i must confess i was waiting more IO, i think lot of IO from the fpga was wasted on that ADC, but off course is a personal opinion20:49
wpwrakrjeffries: SIE has long dropped the FPGA. now it's just the 472x, RAM, uSD, and NAND. technically, they could get rid of the NAND as well.20:49
kristianpauli think SUE current SIe has noe fpga btw..20:49
kristianpauloops ignore SUE part :)20:50
rjeffrieswpwrak I though he had moved on to ARM based boards20:50
kristianpaulthats another projects20:51
rjeffriesbiab20:51
wpwrakyup, the ARM is technically much more demanding. BGA and all.20:51
--- Sun Aug 7 201100:00

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