#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-08-04

qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: milkymist config.minimal: change ROOTFS PARTSIZE to 4M (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a3e9bea02:31
wolfspraulwpwrak: hey, back :-)04:13
wolfspraulI continued to write up your news items, it's shaping up very nicely04:14
akiwiguyGood afternoon, everyone04:14
wolfspraulI have the FISL talk, packageology, anatomy of a datasheet, ben-wpan production and testing documentation (WOW IS THIS GOOD! I didn't read it in detail before!)04:14
wolfspraulfree cad tool comparison04:15
wolfspraulakiwiguy: hi kiwi guy :-)04:15
akiwiguyxD04:15
akiwiguyhai thar, wolfspraul 04:15
wolfspraulwpwrak: I'll let you know when it's fully cleaned up. THen I will dig the mailing list archives to see whether there's more.04:17
wolfspraulfinally I need to rearrange this whole giant mess of a page I have right now (08-01 news)04:17
rjeffrieswonder if anyone in qi-hardware community will be attending this event: http://dangerousprototypes.com/2011/08/03/open-hardware-summit-2011-were-doing-a-breakout/05:40
rjeffrieswolfspraul what approach did Sharism take regarding getting official USB ID?05:44
rjeffriesthsi got me thinking (in a non-Qi-hardware context for a small consulting project)05:44
rjeffrieshttp://dangerousprototypes.com/2011/06/24/ohs-2011-talk-proposal-open-hardware-and-the-2000-usb-tax/05:44
wolfspraulwhat is your question?05:45
wolfspraulwe paid 2000 USD, got a USB ID, and use that USB ID for all Qi projects05:45
wolfspraulanybody who is doing a Qi projects is welcome to ask for a product ID, which we keep track of at http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/USB_product_ID_assignments05:47
wolfspraulthe Qi USB vendor code is 0x20B705:47
wolfspraulwe similarly got an IEEE OUI, 10-E2-D5, for use by any Qi project and tracked at http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/IEEE_OUI_assignments05:49
wolfspraulthat one was 1650 USD I believe05:49
rjeffriescool. I pretty much assumed as much.05:50
wolfspraulas you can imagine I disagree with the entire analysis and conclusion of that article you link to05:51
wolfspraulwe do share 0x20B7 with any Qi project05:51
wolfspraulwelcome to the 21st century05:51
wolfspraulsometimes some leadership is required05:52
wolfspraulI am sure the USB forum is an honorable organization.05:52
wolfspraulmost Chinese vendors wouldn't even bother to spell their name right, and randomly pick any number between 0x0000 and 0xFFFF05:52
wolfsprauland they serve the world with their products...05:52
wolfspraulit's a wonderful opportunity for the USB forum to come clean. I am openly saying: Qi paid 2000 USD for 0x20B7, and it's shared for any Qi project, and properly accounted for on our Wiki :-)05:53
wolfsprauland one important feature of our wiki is that anonymous edits are possible05:53
wolfspraulisn't that a wonderful world?05:53
wolfspraulQi has solved the '2000 USD tax' those guys seem to have found.05:53
wolfspraulthere are many more such taxes btw. I decided to pay 2000 USD of my own money to the USB forum because I think it's an honorable organization.05:54
wolfspraulI would not pay 4000 USD / yr to get a "SD host license"05:54
rejonhahaha05:54
wolfspraulthat why Qi created the 8:10 standard05:54
rejonyou guys talking again05:54
rejongeez05:54
rejonwork to be done!05:55
wolfspraulrejon: well, he's right. Many people see those taxes and ask how it related to 'open hardware'05:55
wolfspraulQi has solved the problem for USB (0x20B7), and for IEEE OUI (10-E2-D5)05:55
wolfspraulwhether people accept or like our solution is up to them05:55
wolfspraulSD host license is a scam, we created 8:1005:56
wolfspraulMP3, no need to talk about it05:56
wolfspraulHDMI, same05:56
wolfspraulwhat else?05:56
wolfspraulrejon: the article says (let's assume this is authentic) "Anyone who wants to manufacture an UNO clone has to cough up $2000 bucks to get their own ID, Arduino cant share theirs. Thats the $2000 USB tax."05:57
wolfspraulI disagree. "Arduino can't share theirs"05:58
wolfspraulThey dont' want to share theirs05:58
wolfspraulthey don't want to take risks, because they don't care05:58
wolfspraul(about that case)05:58
wolfspraulthousands of Chinese companies that are very real can share theirs :-)05:58
wolfspraulrjeffries: you can write a letter to the USB forum and point to the Qi wiki page saying that Qi shared the vendor code it acquired with all subprojects05:59
wolfspraulsee what they say :-)05:59
wolfspraulproblem solved, for me05:59
rejonhahaha06:01
wolfspraulrejon: the article Ron linked to mentioned some 'dutch guys' (no url) who seemingly had their vendor id 'revoked' after trying to share it06:03
rjeffriesrejon and wolfspraul I read the articel, found it interesting. Absolutely no aspersions intended.06:05
wolfsprauland it says that the usb forum is "getting more strict"06:05
wolfspraulrjeffries: no it's good :-)06:05
wolfspraulso...06:05
rjeffriesI have ZERO interest in writing the USB Forum. why would you say something like that06:05
wolfspraulwhy not? help the Qi community06:05
wolfspraulI am trying to find little tasks for you :-)06:05
rjeffriesI am interested more for a company I am working with that is all.06:06
wolfspraulif the USB forum 'revokes' the Qi vendor ID, as per their policies it seems they will not reissue 0x20B706:06
rjeffrieswolfspraul I am quite busty, but thanks again. ;)06:06
wolfspraulno worries my expectations weren't disappointed06:06
rjeffries$2000 is not a huge sum in a comercial enterprise06:06
rjeffriesbut still they whine06:07
wolfspraulit looks out many small and honest people06:07
wolfspraulmaybe that combination can also just be called 'stupid' though06:07
wolfspraulthe not so honest would just ignore this entire topic and produce and sell wahtever they want, with whatever random number that crosses their mind first06:08
wolfspraulor the number of some other company so the driver works06:08
wolfspraulso let me just summarize for the archives06:08
wolfspraulif the USB forum revokes the Qi ID and how we use them, I will publish any and all communication I receive from them06:08
wolfspraulafter that we will replace the USB standard with our own, similar to the 8:10 standard for removable memory cards06:09
wolfsprauland done06:09
wolfspraulno end user will be affected by any of this, I'm pretty sure our post-USB devices will work quite well still. We will do a lot of testing.06:09
wolfspraulhope this makes sense :-) rjeffries thanks for bringing it up!06:11
rjeffriesunderstood, although not a topic that is intersting to me. I asked a simple question, and now I know. and thank you06:11
rjeffriesand a special thank you to rejon. I can always count on him for a bit of amusement06:11
wolfspraulrjeffries: oh btw, you have to pay more if you want to use some of their logos06:15
wolfspraulUSB logos that is06:15
rejoni'm not really following06:15
rejonthis conversation or reading backlogs06:15
rejonno time06:15
rejonback to work06:16
rjeffriesunderstood.06:17
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: usbboot: remove useless NAND_READ_TO_RAM from host. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/ad27b6308:19
wolfspraulI cannot find anymore where Tuxbrain announced the sales-to-date for atben/atusb08:24
wolfspraulah here, found it http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-July/008435.html08:31
`antonio`Hi ! does anyone have some instructions on how to use atben and at usb ?11:00
wolfspraul`antonio`: not really. you are a pioneer if you go there...11:09
wolfspraulthere was some development activity from Stefan Schmidt and Richard Sharpe, who may be in this channel once in a while11:10
wolfsprauland of course Werner, the designer11:10
wolfspraulbut it's definitely in development stage now11:10
`antonio`ok11:10
`antonio`I am looking at some Werner discussions 11:11
`antonio`is there gonna be a wiki page about it ?11:11
wolfspraulthere's a wiki page http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN11:12
wolfsprauland Werner wrote some things in plain HTML11:12
kristianpaulhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/11:13
kristianpaulalso http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/prod/11:14
`antonio`yeh I've already read these 11:14
`antonio`i'll have a look and see if I can get some hints from the video on the wiki11:16
kristianpaulwhat hints are you looking for?11:18
kristianpaulfeel free to ask i guess :)11:18
kristianpaulhad you alredy look at mail list archives?11:21
kristianpauli think werner wrote some interesting reports there11:22
`antonio`yes few of those are really helpful11:22
`antonio`ok, thanks ! 11:23
wpwrakcatching up with a bit of backlog ...13:17
wpwrakkristianpaul: (wtf accum int.png) that could be some RF interference. e.g., if the pin is driven low and then Z. maybe it's not the FPGA pin but its configuration. or maybe the "pull up" transistor is dead :)13:19
wpwrakAyla: you called ?13:23
wpwrakwolfspraul: (testing doc) glad you like them ;-)13:25
Aylawpwrak: I did13:28
AylaI heard you are mister Lilo?13:30
Aylaat some point we'd like to be able to install linux on the dingoo A32013:32
Aylaon the NAND13:32
Aylaso far, I was able to install the filesystem on the NAND with a UBIFS filesystem13:32
Aylait works good as long as I boot the linux kernel through USB with jzboot13:32
Aylado you have any advices on the way to proceed?13:34
Aylamaybe we can get uboot to start off UBI13:36
wpwrakhmm, i don't know if uboot supports ubifs13:37
AylaI was also thinking about making a much simpler JZ bootloader13:37
wpwrakwhat i would do: write a very very very simple NAND loader that does nothing but a sequential load starting at page 0 (or 1), with the only exception being that it can skip bad blocks (you need that with NAND)13:38
wpwrakand the load a linux kernel with an initramfs, which then kexecs your real system13:38
wpwrakthere, you can do anything you please. you have the full power of linux at your hands.13:39
wpwrakno need to mess with silly little u-boot :)13:39
Aylayep, we were thinking about kexecboot13:39
Aylaso the first-stage bootloader would have full UBI support?13:41
wpwrak`antonio`: the setup is still a little bumpy. if you want to use the IEEE 802.15.4 kernel drivers, you need to build the ben-wpan branch of qi-kernel. then you can write native IEEE 802.15.4 applications or you can also use a bit of IPv4 via dirtpan13:43
wpwrak`antonio`: if you don't need IEEE 802.15.4, you could also use a lower level, similar to what the user-space tools do13:44
`antonio`i just want to try something simple with dirtpan13:45
`antonio`anyway I'll try and I'll let you know how that goes and if I am stuck, thanks !13:46
wpwrakAyla: no, it would just do setup_memory(); p = LOAD_ADDRESS; page = 1; /* assume page 0 contains the boot loader */ do13:47
wpwrakif (!(page & (PAGES_PER_BLOCK-1))) while (nand_block_is_bad(page)) page += PAGES_PER_BLOCK;13:47
wpwrakread_nand_page(p, page); p += PAGES_SIZE; page++; } while (not_done());13:49
wpwrak((void (*)(void)) LOAD_ADDRESS)();13:49
wpwrakadd a { after the "do"13:50
Aylaso, you just wrote the bootloader? :)13:50
wpwrak"not_done" would depend on how you express the end. could be hard-coded in the first block (so you'd replace the first block each time you update the boot loader). or you could have some end marker, either in the data (e.g., a page that's all zero) or in the OOB data (tricky)13:51
wpwrakyeah. that's all the boot loader you need ;-) (the functions it calls are a bit more work, though. also note that read_nand_page should do ECC correction :)13:52
wpwrak`antonio`: dirtpan currently doesn't handle traffic-intensive connections well, because the underlying IEEE 802.15.4 stack doesn't to proper CDMA, so eventually both sides fight "forever" for the right to send. i have a driver in the works hat will solve this for atusb, later for atben. need to put a bit more time into this, though. been slacking the last two weeks :)13:55
`antonio`ok! 13:58
larscthe bootloader should also initalize pin and clock config14:04
larscand mem14:04
Aylalarsc, indeed14:09
Aylalarsc: wait, does uboot actually does that?14:24
Aylaif we start a linux kernel, it won't be done by the kernel itself?14:25
larscsome of it is done by uboot some of it is done by the kernel14:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: like them [testing documentation] you bet. not just like it, it's truly fantastic14:32
wolfspraulwe don't have much time or reason for celebration, but afaik this is the gold standard in how a good copyleft production documentation should look like14:33
wolfspraulI didn't notice it before, but finally I think I know why the production and yield of the boards at tuxbrain went so smooth :-)14:33
wolfspraulI always wanted to have something like this for the Ben, or now M1, but we never got our act together to get it into such a concise and focused format as you did with ben-wpan14:34
wolfspraulwpwrak: so in terms of completion, anything I overlooked?14:40
wolfspraulI think next step is to rearrange everything, make it lighter and more readable14:40
wolfspraulif the page is even still browsable to you :-)14:41
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08032011-1051/14:49
kristianpaulakiwiguy: so you got a nanonote finally? :)15:00
wpwrakthe page does indeed load a bit slowly ;-)16:13
wpwrakstefan_schmidt: heya ! how are things going with the atusbs ? are they behaving ?17:55
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: behaving pretty good. No real problems on hardware or driver level17:56
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: Fighting with all the stuff on top of it now :)17:56
wpwrakthat's what i like to hear ;-)17:57
stefan_schmidtheh17:58
Action: [g2] waves to stefan_schmidt and wpwrak 17:58
stefan_schmidthi [g2] 17:58
Action: stefan_schmidt will be at the CCC camp next week18:00
wpwrak[g2]: and how how's your little project ? by the way, tuxbrain may be interested in it, too.18:00
[g2]wpwrak, I've been through 3 revs on my "Arduino compatible" hardware now18:00
[g2]I got the 1st rev of PCBs back18:00
[g2]I've been making friends with Kicad :)18:01
[g2]wpwrak, thx for the help btw18:01
[g2]I haven't put created the RF board yet18:02
[g2]wpwrak, would tuxbrain like to be a distrib or just make them ?18:03
wpwrak[g2]: (3 revs) wow ;-)18:17
wpwrak[g2]: (tuxbrain) maybe both18:17
wpwrakbut you'll have to ask him yourself. all i know is that he's interested in making/selling things that combine arduino with ieee 802.15.418:18
rohany reason not to just use http://www.logos-electro.com/zigduino/ ?18:20
rjeffrhi roh18:21
[g2]wpwrak, THX18:22
rjeffrit would be interesting for Zigduino to be an endpoint for wprak's ATben or ATusb.18:22
Aylacan two ATben communicate together without a ATusb?18:23
[g2]wpwrak, the arduino part is meant to be a "DIT - Do it Together" kinda project with lots of spins.  I'm thinking about possibly weekly PCBs18:23
rjeffrZiguino is a bit pricey at $70USD, but not outrageous IMO. There is aguy working on a lower cost 802.15.4 thingie18:23
wpwrakroh: form factor ? 18:23
rjeffroh I thik his handle is [g2] LOL18:23
[g2]rjeffr, Hi... Outrageous :)18:23
rjeffr[g2] I like your style. you go, man18:24
wpwrakAyla: sure. atben to atben, atusb to atusb, atusb to atusb, it's all the same :)18:24
rjeffrhello wpwrak I have been out of the loop. what is working so far at a simple level with your two modules18:25
wpwrak[g2]: weekly may be a bit excessive ;-) but yes, a (comparably) high rate makes a lot of sense18:25
rohwpwrak: arduino compatible means a constant formfactor anyhow. else its not compatible.18:25
[g2]wpwrak, I don't mean just by myself.  As my nick handles shows I was a dev on nslu2-linux..  We had 120+ devs in 2005ish time frame.  There were 6K+ people on the mailing list. I'm sure the communities are much larger now. IMHO18:26
wpwrakrjeffr: ieee 802.15.4 kernel drivers are now there. atusb still has high latency (due to protocol issues on the usb end), and neither implements cdma/acks so far (that's an issue inherited from upstream)18:27
Aylawpwrak: ok, that's nice. If we install linux on the NAND of the A320, I wouldn't mind having a wireless card for networking or multiplayer18:27
rjeffrroh wpwrak well, Arduino can be defined that way, as in all sheilds must fit. some people relax that phsical form factor sucessfully18:27
wpwrakroh: well, i'll let the arduinites explain the concept :)18:27
rohrjeffr: yes. but it generates a lot of misunderstandings with not that technical knowing people and thats bad and generates bad vibes.18:28
rjeffrwpwrak I have zero idea what you and others will need to do for your 802.15.4 driver to be incuded in upsteam linux distros.18:28
rohbesides that.. its not really big even if done correctly.18:28
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: auto ack and resubmit are still on my agenda for at86rf230. Should come withinj the next to months...18:28
rohthe power source is usually much bigger than the arduino board or the rest of the electronics18:29
rjeffrroh I agree. I did order qty 5 of the little Femtoduino yesterday. I have contacted a shop locally who I think will do the SMT for at a very reasonable price18:29
rjeffrroh true, other than a battery fed system18:29
rjeffrin any case, i have a funny little bullshit use case where small is good18:30
rohrjeffr: even batteries are bigger than the boards ;)18:30
wpwrakstefan_schmidt: i'll probably beat you to it :) when i redo the atusb driver to overcome the protocol inefficiency, i'll also switch on cdma and ack. should actually be pretty simple.18:30
rohi am not against small. i am against starting there.18:30
wpwrakrjeffries: (include upstream) push and wait ;-)18:30
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: that would obviously be fine with me :P18:30
rohnormal arduino users are BEGINNERS. means also for soldering etc.18:30
[g2]roh, rjeffries define small if you can18:31
wpwrakroh: (size) make it work with button cells ;-)18:31
rjeffriesroh very true. nbodt is forced to purchase the smaller arduio-like pcbs. ;)18:31
rohso do not make it more complicated than it absolutely needed.18:31
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: (driver rewrite) happy with the firmware side now?18:31
rohwpwrak: button cells are ecological nightmares. dont use them.18:31
rjeffries[g2] my bullshit use case is a computer attached to a walking stick that will control a string of LEDs to make the walker (that would be me) safer at dusk18:32
rohmaybe it makes more sense to make a atrf extension board18:33
rjeffriesroh I think I'll use an AA form factor cell eiether n=1 or maybe n=2 recahrgeable naturally18:33
rohbasically the chip and its crystal with the antenna on a pcb, to be connected via spi to stuff like a arduino nano etc.18:33
rohfor the people who need a smaller formfactor18:33
rjeffriesto be clear my walking stick MCU is not wireless. sorry if I confused anyone18:33
rohand to make it cheaper18:33
[g2]rjeffries, my current arduino board is only about 2x the size of the Femto or 0.82" x 1.42"18:34
wpwrakroh: heh, you'll love one of my secret little projects then. eats cr2032 like there's no tomorrow ;-)18:34
[g2]I was going go down to .07"18:34
rjeffriesroh that is a good idea. but if [g2] can have an atmel MCU on that little board, the whole thing is smakll and cheap and can have some sensor inputs18:34
rohwpwrak: i know enough electronics which does... quite a waste18:35
rjeffries[g2] when do you get fabbed PCBs back?18:35
[g2]I've already have a version back18:35
rohrjeffries: it will be less flexible and maybe more expensive due to lower sold volume.18:35
[g2]s/have/got/18:35
rjeffrieswpwrak what secret little project Sir Werner? Do tell.18:35
rohrjeffries: if there isnt already a breakout board, start there. there are lods of mcu out there and not everbody uses avrs18:35
rjeffriesroh it will be dirt cheap however. the Femtoduino PCBs are available for $2 each including shipping in USA18:36
[g2]rjeffries, http://www.flickr.com/photos/63243033@N07/5978975226/in/photostream18:36
[g2]It's the Thor18:36
rjeffriesroh we agree there are many ways to skin this cat18:36
rjeffriesI asssume it is ok to post this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290595113999&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_500wt_98318:37
rohrjeffries: femtoduino isnt really interresting for me.18:37
rjeffriesand this: http://www.varesano.net/projects/hardware/Femtoduino18:37
rohand us shipping is only a small part of this planet18:38
rjeffriesroh I am not promoting it. it is merely something real cheap that I will play (repeat PLAY) with for my walking stick control system ;)18:38
rjeffriesroh I get it. relax. actually teh guy will shiup via surface mail elsewhere VEY cheaply18:39
rjeffriesthis PCBs themselves are just under $1 and the bag of parts is about $718:39
rohsure. i am just saying that i do arduino compatiple stuff.. but ive never bought an actual one.18:40
rohi just use the next best avr in my box18:40
rohif i need more than one pcb maybe i route one and mill it at friends or maybe on our mill (when its finally done)18:40
rohrjeffries: will he sell completed boards (machine placed)?18:41
rjeffriesroh he does not but I am investigating that. it is so few parts that my small show may not use picj and place, but I do not have a quoute yet.18:43
wpwrakstefan_schmidt: (fw) it'll probably change some more once i start debugging the driver. i like the general architecture of the new features, though. oh, and eventually, i should kick out some of the requests. we don't really need two sets that do the same (reg/buf vs. spi) :)18:44
rohrjeffries: heh.. well.. tell me a price for them if you know18:44
rjeffriesthere is a hackerspace about 80 miles away and I know those guys. They bought a machine (cupcake, I think) which is a low end 3d fab machine18:44
rohcurrently it seems cheaper making some including pcb in europe than shipping from the us and hand placing18:45
rjeffriesI don't think they have a CNC mill yet.18:45
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: sure, we can keep an older fw around until the new one is stable and then switch over18:45
rjeffriesyou may be right. hard to say. 18:45
roh3d printers and mills dont really help for picknplace. sadly18:45
rohand the board seems to small to be milled properly (atleast if it shouldnt be pain soldering afterwards18:46
wpwrakrjeffries: (project) http://ledtoy.sourceforge.net/18:46
rjeffriesoh I understand that. ;) I was merely saying we have a hackerspace. I have  not joined because it is so far away. I think I can get access now and again for a reasonable fee18:46
wpwrakrjeffries: the illuminated walking stick sounds nice. add color, and you can dual-use it as a light saber ;-)18:47
rjeffriesroh agree Femtoduino is not a good candidate for cnc milling in lieu of regualt etching18:47
rjeffrieswpwrak I make thes esticks from ranfom pieces of actual sticks. 18:47
rohrjeffries: yes.. thats why i think doing a hundred and using picknplace makes sense. manual labour is expensive (atleast here)18:48
rjeffrieswpwrak I'll be damned. re LEDtoy project. Too damn cool.18:48
wpwrakstefan_schmidt: the fw should be upwards-compatible anyway (for now)18:49
rjeffriesroh the only way doing Femtoduino by hand makes sense (I think) is for a hobbyist who has more time than money18:49
wpwrakroh: (expensive labour) try to get some 1 EUR jobbers ? :)18:51
rohwpwrak: they cost money, not bring something.18:52
rohwpwrak: people who can do higher-level work like smt soldering have a real job.18:52
wpwrakroh: what is it for the employer - EUR 2/hour ?18:52
kristianpaul(ledtoy) cool :-)18:52
rohthey'll cost you loads of money for broken stuff. besides that you only get them for stuff not done my regular workers.. (e.g. tasks which have no economic backing like cleaning parks et)18:53
wpwrakrjeffries, kristianpaul: glad you like it :) still needs some engineering, though. e.g., firmware/content updates are currently via an RS-232 dongle. and the case it some fragile DIY contraption with a lot of glue and wire. (needless to say, changing the battery is a pain)18:54
rohwpwrak: ive talked with farmers who dont use 1E jobbers but are back to eastern european helpers for the crop harvesting season. why? less broken crop. its difficult to stab  asparagus properly18:55
wpwrakroh: well, (illegal ?) immigrants from impoverished countries may also be a good choice. whatever works ;-)18:55
kristianpaulwpwrak: i do like the concept18:56
rohin the end. either pay workers properly (which they can live from) or pay twice ,) thats whats to learn there. low-wages jobs dont save any money. they lead to bad quality and more cost in total18:56
rohwpwrak: not illegal. remember.. the eu goes from the mediterain to russia now. they are all legal18:56
rohhttp://www.tinkersoup.de/product_info.php?products_id=57919:01
rohhrhr.. a atben-like oled19:01
wpwrakcute ;-)19:02
rjeffrieswpwrak you are now famous on GooglePlus G+ I warned them that you do not use G+19:03
wpwrakrjeffries: hmm ? what made me famous ?19:05
Action: [g2] would add wpwrak to my circle19:06
wpwrakwhat the world really needs is a good anti-social networking site ;-)19:07
rjeffries[g2] I am trying to figure out how to get the URL to those two posts I made about LED Toy and the guy who invented it19:07
rohwpwrak: already got it19:07
rjeffrieswpwrak you and wolfsraul and rejon could all talk to each other. BUG smile19:07
rohwpwrak: the amount the 'social' shit spamms one its already antisocial. the whole posse19:07
rjeffriess/BUG/BIG/19:07
wpwrakthe "bug smile" would be a lot scarier ;-)19:08
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: (anti-social networking) I thought IRC is exactly that19:08
rjeffriesI am not an evangalist for social networking. I can report that i find a lot of smart creative sane people who I otherwise would never meet.19:08
rjeffriesirc was the fisrt social network. get over it. ;)19:09
wpwrakrjeffries: perhaps you are too young to remember BITNET ? ;-))19:09
wpwrakthose were the days. back then, a good high-speed link between universities was 9600 bps. the poorer ones, like oldenburg in germany, only had 2400 bps.19:11
rjeffriesactually I was not. I went to university at one of the first 4 Arpanet nodes. those were eciting times.19:12
wpwrak"relay chat" was by sending messages between IBM mainframes (running VM/CMS), or non-IBM systems with some compatible stack for the IBM proprietary protocol. i think that one was even before SNA.19:12
wpwrakroh: (oled) only lives for ~2.5 years. pity.19:13
rjeffriesA guy who wporked for me installed Unix on a  PDP that we converted from DEC RSTS os. The tape came directly from UC Berkely19:14
rjeffrieswpwrak is OLED really so short lived in terms of durability"19:14
rohwpwrak: true.. still that bad?19:14
wpwrakroh: that's what the data sheet says: http://www.4dsystems.com.au/downloads/MOTG/MOTG-96/Docs/MOTG-96-DS-rev1.pdf19:15
wpwrakrjeffries: says typically 15 khours on time, min. 20 khours storage lifetime19:15
wpwrakof course, this would explain why the industry is so interested in oled. much like why they love lithium batteries. built-in obsolescence.19:16
rohlithium batteries?19:17
rohwpwrak: do you seriously think lead acid or ni-cd/ni-mn is more useful=19:17
[g2]wpwrak, LiPO have the highest energy density19:18
[g2]by LiPOFe are safer19:18
[g2]and nearly the same energy density from my understanding19:19
rohalso less easy to get in sane volume.19:19
rohlifepo4 is a bit bigger than li-po.19:19
wpwrakroh: nimh doesn't seem all that bad19:19
rohmore volume. about the same as lead-acid19:19
rohwpwrak: its ok for short term bursts. but has a miserable lifetime19:20
wpwrakyup. energy density is limited in the alternatives19:20
rohi would use li-fe-po4 everyehere possible. or lead-acid (sealed) for where li-based stuff is too expensive or weight doesnt matter19:20
rohni-* is dead to me.19:21
rjeffriesmy interest for a project I can not talk about is battery with very long life at very low drain. think a year or more19:21
rohrjeffries: li based one-time batteries.19:21
rohalready on the market. easy to get19:22
wpwrak[g2]: seems that you missed the discussion of the wpan fw a bit ago. currently, you can use IEEE 802.15.4 without cdma and without acks. atben has reasonably fast turnaround time but atusb is slow (due to the protocol spoken between host and atusb being slowed down by how uhci is implemented)19:22
wpwrakroh: CR2032 !!!! ;-)19:23
rohintended for usecases like fire alarms or remote controls where you only need a very low amount of energy over a looong time and loose more by self-discharge than useage with regular batteries19:23
rohwpwrak: nope. those are much to low energy for drive a smoke alarm19:23
wpwrakroh: make it a silent alarm then ;-)19:24
wpwrak[g2]: but i have an improved protocol/firmware/driver for atusb in the works that should improve the turn-around time. that will also be an opportunity to switch on the chip's cdma and auto-ack features. with these, proper TCP-over-dirtpan should be possible. (right now, the lack of CDMA makes connections with more than very little traffic stall)19:25
[g2]wpwrak, thx... Sorry I haven't been following the logs as I should19:25
rohwpwrak: we have enough alarm cases that we use regular alkaline 9V blocks now19:27
rohworks for ~2 years19:27
wpwrakas long as you remember to replace it in time ...19:28
rohit signals when empty enough19:28
wpwrakah, nice19:28
rohthey even mandate smoke alarms now.. not bad considered there are many torched buildings lately19:29
wpwrakpyromaniacs on the loose ?19:29
wpwrakor just the neighbourhood getting rougher ?19:29
rohi think criminals wanting to rent the flats to somebody else for more money than.19:30
rohjust.. proove it. the roughness of the market when it comes to renting is evil.19:30
wpwrakah yes, the dark side of good tenant protection19:30
rohthats why havint smoke alarms and good locks are basic survival19:31
wpwraknice environment. i guess it must be almost as bad in the slums ;-)19:32
rohno. the market just collapsed. so these already criminals (well.. they build stuff..) got worse in their desperation19:33
rohcan get worse, but then there is no reason to torch anymore.19:33
rohso is business working on speculation. fishy, criminal, bad for society. banks and housing are simply no business.19:34
rohbbl19:34
rjeffriesI got a nice as in "low" quote to assemble my small qty of femtoduinos a.k.a. "walking stick human saftey system: or WSHSS lol20:36
rjeffriesalso known as a dead simple LED controller that is small and very portable and very low cost20:37
rjeffriesMy walking stick doesn't need Linux. Yet.20:37
rohrjeffries: what does it need a cpu for?20:49
rjeffriesroh it doesn't NEED a cpu inherently. But that makes it easy to do some cool effects.20:50
rjeffriesroh will I am not telling the truth. I hope to add a couple of sensors so it counts steps, yada yada.20:51
rohi see20:52
rjeffriesmaybe it will shock me if I do not walk briskly. I'll have to see.20:52
rjeffrieshave you played with EL wiring for glow-y effects?20:52
rjeffrieswpwrak two short articles: https://plus.google.com/u/0/110897184785831382163/posts/dtMs4f5iKbQ20:56
rjeffrieswpwrak 2 of 2: https://plus.google.com/u/0/110897184785831382163/posts/WtfsUpWzvKq20:57
wpwrakheh. lovely praise :)21:17
wpwraksomething to add to my CV. X years of experience doing this, Y years doing that, yadda yadda, N people praise me on G+ ;-)21:18
rohwpwrak: hrhrhr21:18
rohwpwrak: dont worry.. we can sit that one out.21:19
wpwrakrjeffries: (walking stick) add some wireless receiver and sell the corresponding transmitter as a cheap car add-on. that way, your walking stick can flash when one of these silent e-cars sneaks up on you. phase 2: lobby to make this a mandatory safety features in all cars whose noise level is below a ferrari breaking the sound barrier ;-)21:31
wpwrakrjeffries: well, phase 1.5. put the product on the market and invest in mass advertizing. then, when one of your walking-stick customers gets hit by an e-car, join a case with an amicus brief stating that the car driver did not take all reasonable precautions to avoid such accidents. that will let your customers sue for an even more insane amount. that precedent will greatly smoothen the lobbying process.21:34
wpwrak(they did more or less that with finger protection for saws. someone invented and patented such a protection system, then managed to make it mandatory. voila, instant monopoly !)21:35
rjeffrieswpwrak you should be a defence attorney21:41
rjeffrieswpwrak i have to find a cool way to leverage 802.15.4 ob the walking stick21:42
rohwpwrak: http://www.4dsystems.com.au/prod.php?id=14321:42
rohweird company21:42
rjeffriesmaybe it knows when i leave, alerts my wife and dogs and any criminal who have a Ben21:42
rjeffriesthen as I walk back near the front gate, it gives another alert21:43
rjeffriesor given the 10 meter range of your modules I put a system on my minature horse. and place a few other 802.15.4 stations at various locations in or era his pasture an dbarn21:44
rjeffriesthen have a reak time more or less HORSE GPS21:44
wpwrakroh: indeed, ACME :) but i don't seen uSD->VGA. i still win ;-)21:45
rjeffriesroh that 4dsystems GPS module is clever21:46
rohwpwrak: hrr21:47
wpwrakrjeffries: there may actually be a market for a system that warns an intruder of the approaching tenant, with enough time to make a discreet, non-confrontational departure21:47
rjeffriesau 29 seems not very expenive21:48
rjeffrieswpwrak indeed especially if a mistress or lover is involved. yes, that could be a money maker for sure21:48
rjeffriesau 29 in refernce to 4dsystem GPS microsd module21:49
rjeffriesif it is real21:49
wpwrakrjeffries: (tenant annunciator) should actually be easy to implement in multi-apartment buildings: use an RFID card for front door access and sends a message via some internal network to the terminal(s) in the respective apartment.21:53
wpwrakrjeffries: you need RFID (and not just a swipe card) in case the person in question finds the door open and enters without a swipe.21:54
rjeffrieswpwrak it is clear you will soon be a VERY rich man, on the order of Bill Gates, or at a minimum Steve Jobs. certainly on par with wolfspraul. ;)21:55
Aylawolfspraul is rich?21:56
wpwrakrjeffries: hmm, if wolfgang keeps buying fake component in shenzen, we may indeed find ourselves on par soon ;-)21:56
rjeffriesi had not seen this paper. It mentions Freerunner: http://www.usenix.org/event/usenix10/tech/full_papers/Carroll.pdf21:58
kristianpaultuxbrain_HxxHhzo: that reduccion de precios, also will be aplied for internationals orders ? :)22:01
wpwrakAyla: probably not in the colloquial sense of "rich". i'm sure he has a lot more money on the bank than the average chinese, though.22:01
Aylaah. So he's chinese22:02
Ayla"paul" isn't really a chinese name :)22:02
kristianpaulah?22:02
kristianpaulwich paul you mean btw?22:03
Aylathe wolfs one22:03
wpwrakAyla: he lives in china. but i don't think he has become chinese ;-)22:04
Aylayou're sure? :)22:04
wpwrak(paul) wow, nice puzzle ;-) look at his full name and it'll make more sense :)22:05
kristianpaulyeah22:05
Aylamy name is "paul" too22:05
AylaI could nick myself "aylapaul"22:05
mthbut his isn't ;)22:05
Aylax_x22:07
Action: Ayla just realised it's "wolfspraul" and not "wolfspaul" 22:08
wpwrakrjeffries: (paper on gta02) nice :) and indeed, such an analysis would "not [be] possible to the same degree on a typical commercial device."22:10
wpwrakwolfgang managed to create the perfect mystery without even trying ;-)22:10
kristianpaullol22:11
Action: kristianpaul considers one more time buy a atben/atusb combo22:11
kristianpaulkyak: any updates with your at* stuff? i guess all is fine now and you have a nice wpan net?22:12
rjeffrieslet the record show I set up a Mouser account and modified a BOM and placed an order. this is parts to build qty 5 femtoduinos23:47
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