#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2011-07-30

tuxbrainI also want a "make all" that draws the pcb :P00:00
wpwrakhaving said all this, engraving would still be nice, because the machine could then do everything without even moving the board (well, one side). but it's difficult.00:00
wpwrak(the other side would be a pain, though, because you'd either need to position the board _exactly_ or adjust the machine coordinate system)00:01
wpwrak(make all) yeah, plus an automatic tool changer ;-)00:02
tuxbrainok , for this I need an automatic tool changing but well I can live just screewing idle00:02
wpwrakget a 6 axis mill while you're at it :)00:02
tuxbrainyeah in conbination with a plastic extruder, and I can even make it a box :P00:03
kristianpaulyou need a full line00:03
kristianpaulconveyors every where00:04
kristianpaulsmall boxes may be, like for atben/atusb. but for big things naw00:05
rohmilling makes a lot of dirt. have a extra room for it or buy something with enclosure if not possible00:06
tuxbrainnow seriously, there is no more solution to what I'm searching for than DIY, or pay a windows licence?00:07
kristianpaulyou know wine? :_)00:08
tuxbrainyeah I know it but, If I pay 6k¬ I don't want to be the first to try if it works... and end buying a window licence :P00:10
kristianpaulaskfor linux support,yuo-re the guy with the money, well, at least worth the try no?00:15
rohtuxbrain: usually if its parport controlled and runs with mach3 you can assume emc2 is possible by just adding config00:18
wpwrakroh: does anyone still have a parallel port these days ? ;-)00:20
wpwrakroh: (enclosure) DIY it !!!00:20
wpwrakroh: i make the comfty box my mill sits in with my own bare hands. no noise gets in, no dirt gets in or out :)00:21
kristianpaul:-D http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Cordwoodcircuit.agr.jpg/500px-Cordwoodcircuit.agr.jpg00:21
rohwpwrak: yes. and its important (realtime)00:21
kristianpaulwpwrak: i have one00:22
kristianpaulbut i think i screed it up..00:22
rohusb isnt realtime enough usually. atleast not without extra hardware (counters/pwm gens etc)00:22
kristianpaulbecasuse not use proper buffering..00:22
kristianpaulwpwrak: there are PCI cards and such for parallel adding port i think00:23
rohand pci parport cards are cheap and easy to add 2 more. (we have and use 3 parports on ours00:23
tuxbrainmmm roh... how much to mount, and test a machine with such characteristics: not very big, accurate (enough to do let's say atusb?:P), no need to be fast, drill surface about DINA3, with a dedicate computer with EMC2 installed and tuned ready to accept GCODE or Gerbers through Ethernet port, via ftp or whatever....00:25
tuxbrainand including shipping cost to spain :)00:26
rohheh.. no clue00:26
kristianpaulyou lost a bussiness ! ;-)00:26
wpwrakroh: hmm, i'm a little afraid when you mention the parallel port and "real time" in the same sentence ;-)00:27
rohwpwrak: with a rt kernel it is. every other port on a pc isnt really (besides some chipset vendow dependant gpio maybe)00:28
wpwraktuxbrain: din a3 is quite large. the small affordable ones usually don't do much more than ~20 x ~20 cm00:29
wpwrakroh: still seems hairy. i think i'd take usb + a microcontroller :)00:29
rohand emc2 forces you to run a rt kernel anyhow (and brings its own drivers for parport) .. there is also the possibility to use external or internal fpga cards if the frequencies get too high for the parport00:29
rohwpwrak: more latency00:29
wpwrakkristianpaul: (circuit) sweet :)00:29
roheven the fpga is pci or parport via pci in the best case.00:30
wpwrakroh: put the control loop into your controller :)00:30
tuxbrainok 20x20 is enough is a quotation inquiry no need to be answered in a second of course but a wild guess less than 6k¬ if the anwers is yes I can  busines is not over00:30
tuxbrainthe business windows is not over00:30
wpwraktuxbrain: if all you care about is drilling and cutting the PCB, but not engraving, then you have lots of choices and you can expect most of them to work without too much pain00:31
wpwrakif you require engraving, things get tricky00:31
kristianpaulchemical, chemical,chemical, you need dream with it tonight tuxbrain :)00:32
kristianpauleven with windows and that 6keur machine, i dont think that will be a one button to push solution..00:33
kristianpaulalso you need to consider suplies for the head, replacement part for the future00:34
wpwrakoen button .. let's see ... 4th axis, tool changer, ... hmm, maybe 20 kEUR on a good day :)00:34
kristianpaulcalibration over time00:34
kristianpaulyup wpwrak 00:34
wpwrakwill be noisy too, with the vacuum and such00:34
wpwrakalso, once you have all the chemicals, you're also halfway there on your way to a respectable drug lab :) always a good options if those electronics don't sell too well.00:38
wpwrak(drug lab) of course, it seems that pretty much any chemical can somehow be used to make drugs. so this isn't saying much :)00:38
tuxbraincommon guys, no need to be a one button push solution, manuall tool changing is acceptable, and some maintinace also, noise is not a problem then enclosure will amortiguate the sound and due we will drill small pcb not wood panels there ar quite house vacuums not too noisy tan can make the work 00:39
tuxbrainthe enclosure will amortiguate partially the sound.00:39
wpwrakyeah, cutting pcbs doesn't make so much noise. metals are worse :)00:40
wpwrakof course, the sound-proofing box is still nice if you decide to make a bunch of boards at 3 am ;-)00:42
tuxbrainno one catch the glove to mounting such machine?.... 00:42
tuxbrainany one knows this software (Circuit CAM, BoardMaster)?00:45
wpwraki see a lot of "click" for a single button press solution ;-)00:57
tuxbrain(again) I'm (we are) not searching for a on click solution.... we are searching for an non chemical solution.00:58
tuxbrainLPKF ProtoMat E33 is sooo pretty01:02
tuxbrainjust what we need but... window!! arg!.01:03
tuxbrainwe have passed 2 years without need it an any part of the our job...01:03
rohtuxbrain: relax. maybe you should attend the camp and stay in berlin a few days.. then we can show you around and you can see what solution would be useable for you.01:14
rohcnc is always a custom solution imho. atleast if its nice to use in the end01:14
tuxbrainI can do a lot of things but travel :(01:14
rohoh. why?01:15
kristianpaulfamily guy :-)01:15
tuxbrainthis is one, and other is a lot of task here requires my presence from now to the end of the year01:15
kristianpaulokay, i'm not going to write a pull-in algoryth.. whatever osgps does should work..01:15
rohi see01:20
rohmaybe to congress or so01:20
tuxbrainwell ce ya :(, I will go to sleep without my magic pcb creator machine.01:33
wolfspraulwpwrak: I don't understand your question01:39
wolfspraulyes gta02 had mp3 installed, but after legal consultation we were told the infringement could most likely also be claimed if it were merely installable from servers operated by om, or if om would give instructions on how to do it01:40
wolfspraulnow, if the advertisement saying that it can play mp3 is a complete lie, then I'm not sure, if that's the case you want to ask about01:41
wolfspraulthat's a pretty bizarre problem though, since you are making a false statement to your customers. sisvel may bring forward a case of unfair competitive behavior, after which you would have to stop saying (lying) about the mp3 capability.01:43
wpwrak(false claim) probably not really worth their time to go after you in that scenario01:51
wpwrak(origin of that infringement interpretation) thanks ! i was asking because i realized that the only source for this concept is "wolfgang said so". and i realized there must be a little more to it :)01:52
kristianpaularghhh spam03:01
kristianpaulwolfspraul: after last mediawiki update i cant see a human verificaion method for public editing btw03:03
wolfspraulwait what are you trying to tell me?03:04
wolfspraulwe get spam? the math captcha is missing?03:04
kristianpaulmain page got spamed about a load modification,in the orange follow box03:06
kristianpaulreverted now..03:07
kristianpaulcaptcha missing yes wolfspraul 03:09
wolfsprauloh nice03:09
wolfspraulyes I will look into the captcha03:09
kristianpaulyeah, bot like that :)03:09
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I just tried to edit anonymously, but the math captcha came up03:34
kristianpaulah, yes03:36
kristianpaulit appear before save..03:37
kristianpaulokay, that wasa  smart bit03:37
wolfspraulso before you just thought it was missing?03:37
kristianpaulsorry for the noise :)03:37
wolfspraulno problem03:37
kristianpaulbiased by the upgrade ;-)03:37
wolfspraulthanks a lot for helping me watch out and do the maintenance work!03:37
wolfsprauloh sure, absolutely03:37
wolfspraulon guard03:37
wolfspraulI don't want to go sleep and then have to fish 100 pieces of bot junk out of the wiki.03:37
kristianpaulnp, newsbeuter do all the dirty work, i just read my news :)03:38
wolfspraulthe upgrade went very smooth03:38
wolfspraultook me 30 minutes maybe03:38
wolfspraulnow we have a shiny new mediawiki :-)03:38
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-07292011-0018/03:39
kristianpauljust missing the "Rate this page" feature, to look like wikipedia :-)03:40
kristianpaulindeed, namuru register maps is very simple and clever compated to gp2021, now will be a bit messy to adapt osgps to it..03:51
kristianpaulbut anyway, even if hardcoded.. it should work :-)03:52
kristianpaulbtw i'm really considering switch to linux..03:53
kristianpaulthe milkmist-openwrt port is easy to build, and even the toolchain works, afaiki dint tried load to board yet :p03:54
wolfspraulyou mean on m1?03:54
wolfspraulyes please do so, that's great03:54
wolfspraulpick what is best FOR YOU03:54
wolfspraulI know you wait/hope for mwalle to do the minimac2 work this weekend :-)03:55
kristianpaulnot at all03:55
kristianpauli can transfer binaries by serial port03:55
wolfspraulha, ok. I thought I had sensed your excitement about that improvement :-)03:55
kristianpaulalso i dont need ethernet, as osgps run stalone03:55
wolfspraulbut wrong03:55
kristianpaulsure it will !03:55
wolfspraulmore Linux users is great, absolutely03:56
kristianpaulbut thats for having a mm1 that i can ssh remotelly for later03:56
kristianpauli dont like having the box off most if the time, when i'm not at homr03:56
kristianpauli dunno mwalle will do the work,will be nice  if, but i learn i cant count in other works to make a move :)03:57
wolfspraulwe really have to find ways to get more Verilog and IC design developers to join03:58
wolfspraulit feels like such an underdeveloped space, no collaboration03:58
kristianpaulis hard, well you just said it once, i thnk, old club***03:58
kristianpaulIC desing guys i know really depend on vendor tools..03:59
wolfsprauloh yes03:59
wolfspraulthey are bred to become corporate minions right from the first day in college or whereever they learn04:00
kristianpaulnot saying they are very good coding somwthing, but the IDE save the day making the integration process very smoth :)04:00
wolfspraulso what's better - try to convert them? or bring new people on board who start from scratch?04:00
kristianpaulboth :)04:00
kristianpaulwhatever result first,04:01
kristianpaulalso there is that "myth" that a fpga with no procesor is not as eximent :)04:01
kristianpaulso,some people just want to do only thign, but when realize, no linux no ... ah that is hardcode..or i cant..04:02
wolfspraullost your argument somewhere04:04
kristianpaulmissing features in general,04:04
kristianpaulof course thats changing :)04:04
kristianpauli think, for now mm1 soc is just aplication specific04:05
kristianpaulbut having a better linux will change things, i believe, even with no mmu, is a better platform for others to start with04:08
kristianpauli'm convising to some fsf guys to buya  mm1, at lest to run a really basic web server on it (with linux of course)04:10
wolfsprauland maybe it will finally drive someone talented to get so mad over the missing mmu that they will hack it up :-)04:11
kristianpaulautnomo.us in wich rejon is in, will be another source for users at least04:11
wolfspraulkristianpaul: oh that's nice, thanks!04:11
wolfspraulany bit of promotion or spreading the word you can do is super helpful04:11
kristianpaulthats why minimac2 driver is so important imho04:11
rejonsure yes linux important on m104:17
rejongood reasons above04:17
rohbtw.. how fast is it?04:18
rohi mean.. is there something like a 'clockrate' of the lm32?04:18
rohis that still untuned or will it stay that low?04:20
kristianpauli think you can reacj 100Mhz, disabling some non needed cores  like tmu may be04:20
rohhm. so fpga simulated cpus are like 4-8 times slower than native ones given the same level of miniaturisation?04:21
rohor is there a fpga able to do something compareable to 5-800mhz arm cores in performance?04:22
kristianpaulit depends, what you want04:22
wolfspraulrejon: 80 mhz04:22
wolfspraulsorry I meant roh :-)04:22
kristianpauland want you may want is not generic stuff i think :)04:23
wolfspraulroh: I think it's more like a factor of 20-30 compared to an asic produced with the same process technology04:23
wolfspraulmaybe even more04:23
rohand the same in cost eh? ;)04:23
wolfspraulraw production cost is always the same, and it's in the pennies04:24
kristianpaulfpga getting faster too, well xilinx s7 looks promising04:24
wolfspraulcosts are determined by the business models of the companies making chips, the value (and investment) of their IP etc.04:24
wolfspraulI think the main thing we should look for is continuity. the rising tide.04:25
wolfspraulif we cannot achieve continuity, we will fail (with copyleft hardware as a concept)04:25
rohtrue. i still believe its the tools.04:26
wolfspraulroh: so it's even worse :-) our spartan-6 costs ca. 40 USD (other models go into the hundreds), whereas a 1 GHz ARM chip maybe 15-20 USD04:26
rohi for example still havent gotten used to binary tools and maybe never will again ;)04:26
wolfspraulyes correct, that's how I look at it. where's the continuity, how can we reuse free tech in the next improved product version, or a new product.04:27
wolfspraulif we get that done right, it will work04:27
wolfspraulthe speed at which our ecosystem (any company) can make great performing _new_ products will be the differentiator04:27
rohi would be happy with something which competes against stuff on the level of a freescale imx 28 or so.. arm9, 450mhz, ethernet, nand/nor/spi flash and ~7usd$/chip04:28
wolfspraulI think we should look at products, including software. not compare chips.04:28
rohany slower and one only gets left boring products mostly or needs to compete on power savings/special features04:29
wolfspraulI don't understand the point of comparing chips. Are we sourcing?04:29
wolfspraulno not at all, I don't agree. you don't need a lot of 'mhz' for great products.04:29
rohwolfspraul: depends. on 100mhz i cannot even run a decent browser or ui which gets a vga screen driven04:30
wolfspraul(well, that's the point we are trying to proove. we better have sales to back it up :-))04:30
wolfspraulyes but no browser on a video synthesizer04:30
wolfsprauluse your iPad :-)04:30
rohtrue. still you earn a very limited market by that.04:30
wolfspraulyes and no. indeed we need to find paying customers.04:31
wolfspraulbut it's a big world.04:31
wolfspraulvery big. there are many opportunities. we need a good product, good marketing, good channel. then a little luck. but there is no reason you cannot sell 10,000 Milkymist One, theoretically.04:31
wolfspraulor 100,000, for that matter04:31
rohi mean.. i guess there are more armzone develboards sold per type atm04:31
wolfspraulwhat's your point?04:32
kristianpaulcheap and fast :-)04:32
kristianpaulit seems 04:32
rohwell.. i would like to do projects based on free hw. but atm its just not feasible if the end product is as complex and expensive to make as a mm.04:32
wolfspraulsure so maybe we can branch out something much smaller and cheaper04:33
kristianpaulcomplex as any other hardware i guess04:33
wolfspraulthere was the Xue plan for a while, in the attic now :-)04:33
wolfspraulwe could make a board with the target being i/o, dsp, rf04:34
rohand while i got loads of hw around me i would like to make new ones sometimes. for me that means i need to limit myself to manually or hand solderable packaes tqfp and similar, no bga. same goes for most people (means boards on mills/etching by hand/pcbpool or similar outsourcing)04:35
rohwhich after some research came down with 'no bga means no soc with ethernet'04:35
wolfspraulwhat's your goal actually?04:35
wolfspraulto solder things together yourself because you like the experience?04:36
wolfspraulto make a high-performing product?04:36
roha universal reuseable free cpu to run linux on. currently people use arm9 or faster for that.04:36
wolfspraulwell you cannot have it all ways I think04:36
rohsomething versatile as a linux based arduino04:36
wolfspraulI like high performance because it enables/unlocks software.04:36
wolfspraulyou try to have it all ways again :-)04:37
wolfspraulif you insist on tqfp package vs. bga, you may still have a 90nm semiconductor inside, right?04:37
rohnope. i neither asked for high multimedia performance or such.04:37
wolfsprauldepends on what you want to run. normal people will mostly compare with what is available today.04:38
wolfsprauland since everybody can buy/use the same state-of-the-art, you do have to make a decision about performance early on04:38
rohbut running linux on <400mhz is pain (speaking from experience) if you want to do any one of these things: drive a vga display, use wired ethernet not completely low end, play audio or such.04:39
wolfspraulwhat device are you trying to build? which function should it have?04:40
kristianpaulall of then  :-)04:40
wolfspraulI think we have a pretty good understanding of the 'hardware world', and improving.04:41
wolfspraulso for my part, I will just continue with that. and eventually we have the magic sauce together to make great competitive products.04:41
rohmostly 'connected electronics' .. e.g. a cpu board to put into your hifi amp, or a board to use with a tft as a home-control terminal with a touchscreen. or simply a device with ethernet which has some hands of gpios.04:41
wolfspraulI still have blind spots, and tools/processes I think can be vastly improved (use more boom for example).04:41
rohthe whole point would be to make a board to sell and maybe single chips and or breakout boards to use on a breadboard04:42
wolfspraulthere's tons of that stuff on sparkfun/adafruit/seeedstudios/arduino/etc04:42
wolfspraulnothing there that matches your requirements?04:42
rohwell.. nothing has a free cpu.04:42
wolfspraulif I were them I would even dismiss the idea :-)04:43
wolfspraulbecause I wouldn't understand the point04:43
kristianpaulit is, papilio board roh , i you like free arduino cpu :-)04:43
wolfspraulearly on when I started with copyleft hardware, we tried quite hard to get in touch with the Arduino folks04:43
wolfspraulnot easy because they carry their nose quite high04:43
wolfspraulbut eventually we made it, we got a serious email conversation back and forth going04:43
rohcurrently freescale is what makes the stuff most interresting, but everything with ethernet is bga again also there. only the variants without are hand-soldering compatible04:43
wolfsprauland at the end of the conversation, the bottom line was that they are not interested in the entire concept/idea of 'free/open cpu'04:44
rohkristianpaul: arduinos are too low end for serious ethernet devices04:44
wolfspraulthey are thinking exactly in the opposite direction "we have to dismiss this kind of idea" "we have to become better Atmel customers"04:44
wolfsprauland that makes perfect sense to me04:44
wolfspraulso they are focused04:45
wolfspraulthey want to become better Atmel customers, over time. that's what enables them to make their products.04:45
kristianpaulhah (atmel loyalty)04:45
rohwell, from their pov there is no way to sell something much more expensive that what they have, since customers dont really care.04:45
wolfspraulwill Atmel start to work on a 'free cpu'?04:45
wolfspraulthat would be a very strange thing to expect from them04:45
wolfspraulno it's all fine, it's just different things/concepts04:46
wolfspraulit makes perfect sense to me04:46
wolfspraulthey weren't even interested if we would do all the work of 'freeing the cpu' for them :-)04:46
kristianpaulbut no make sense for a open hardware project over the time..04:46
wolfspraulnot in my book, yes04:47
kristianpaulit will be just arduino, nice trademark :)04:47
wolfspraulwe need a platform that will allow any company to come in, take our starting point, and be able to make a world-class leading performance piece of hardware fast04:47
wolfspraulthe key 'bottle opener' is free software in that case. no need to sign ndas, to ask questions, to go through lengthy licensing talks.04:48
wolfsprauljust take the stuff, customize, make, sell04:48
wolfsprauleither that idea works or it doesn't work :-)04:48
rohwell.. a proper working develboard with openwrt port which sells for <200$ would be something i would buy immediately04:49
rohi mean.. even with 200mhz or so for the beginning that would be great04:50
wolfspraulwe had some crazy plans to sell Xue for 99 USD04:50
wolfspraulbut 199 USD would have been possible for sure04:51
rohcurrently people buy routers or so to do such stuff or use $arm develboard from olimex. but the ports are often a pain04:51
wolfspraulI think as we continue to build our free platform, the opportunity to build this kind of thing will emerge.04:51
wolfspraulwithout large investments04:51
wolfspraulwe just have to continue steadily to build a truly free and (re)usable platform04:51
wolfspraulall the way to KiCad, boom, missing MMU, missing this and that04:52
rohwhat would be the minimum bom to run a nanonote cpu? (crytal, ram, flash? can it boot from sd?)04:52
wolfspraulso someone can realistically branch out and make something new and improved and focused on a new use case with a few thousand USD in cash04:52
wolfspraulyou mean the nanonote board?04:53
wolfspraulmaybe 30 USD or so04:53
rohput only the essentials on a board, wire the rest on pads in a square or like dil (breakout) .. sell it for low 2 digit euros04:53
kristianpaul99 ;-) ?04:53
wolfsprauloh it's all dirt cheap, but that skips over all the hard parts04:53
wolfspraulthe hard parts are the tools, processes, testing, software ports, kernel drivers and stability, actual performance of key features, and so on04:54
rohtrue :) just thinking what the next step could be and how to attract lots of multiplicators04:54
wolfspraulan entire Android smartphone with gps and wifi and touchscreen can be made for ca. 30 USD now04:54
wolfspraulcan and is04:54
rohi want to make something i always missed and which would make my own prototyping easier and nicer. stuff i like so much to work with that i would use it even in bigger projects04:55
wolfspraulmaybe you need to be a little patient and hopefully Milkymist SoC and tools and ecosystem over time will become your starting point for such projects04:55
wolfspraulI think it's moving in the right direction04:55
wolfspraulbut hasn't taken off yet :-)04:55
rohsure. as soon as there are no evil tools neede anymore ;)04:56
kristianpaulor start learning verilog or some HDL now :-)04:56
kristianpaulroh: alwayls will be *evil04:56
rohkristianpaul: i would if that wouldnt mean wasting another 2gig diskspace on sick shit04:56
wolfspraulthe xilinx ise download is already 3.7gb04:56
wolfsprauloh sure04:56
wolfspraulafter installation it's over 10 gb04:57
wolfspraulkristianpaul: true?04:57
rohand one needs all that? isnt there a script to throw all not essential stuff away?04:57
kristianpaulhey,you're pickier than me btw roh :-)04:57
wolfspraulit's one huge thing, very hard to take it apart. I mean there's work everywhere in tools etc. but few people doing that, really. from a free software perspective.04:57
wolfspraulso it's like 10 people worldwide doing that04:58
rohkristianpaul: well... i just know from experience what motivates me and what not. gcc and makefiles always were my friends.04:58
kristianpaulgood choice :-)04:58
wolfsprauland Xilinx alone probably has hundreds that continue to add more bloat to the prior bloat, every day.04:58
wolfspraulroh: it's going to take many more people to dive in there and take it apart and open it up.04:58
kristianpaulwolfspraul: 4.7Gb last installer for version 13.204:59
roheven when it explodes or i switch platforms.. its always there. using binaries always makes me remember the countless times of evil hacks, workarounds, broken stuff i couldnt debug or fix even if i knew how or what it was... that demotivates more than my nosyness which is one of my primary drives.04:59
wolfspraulSebastien himself has made a significant start with the llhdl project, but even that is at best in alpha state, and only addresses a part of the process.04:59
wolfspraulah 4.7 already04:59
wolfspraulthere you go04:59
wolfspraulmaybe they have 1000 people adding every day, Monday to Friday :-)04:59
kristianpaulans 12G installed05:00
wolfspraulwe are trying all we can to free this05:00
wolfspraulbut it's little baby steps05:00
rohi know. maybe i am impatient ;)05:00
wolfspraulwe can reflash boards over jtag now without the Impact tool (xilinx tool)05:00
wolfspraulthat was a lot of work05:00
wolfspraulwe can write the eeprom of the jtag-serial boards without the ftdi windows software05:01
wolfspraulthat was a lot of work05:01
wolfspraulbut there are things 100 times bigger than that waiting in line05:01
wolfspraulkristianpaul knows better than me05:01
wolfspraulkristianpaul: how about debugging and simulation tools? You use a lot of ISE stuff, or free tools?05:01
wolfspraulkristianpaul: which ISE tools do you frequently use nowadays? and which would be easy to replace with free tools?05:02
kristianpaulfree tools for simulation05:03
kristianpaulwell,the only ISE thing i need a replacement is sinthesizer :-)05:03
kristianpauldebugging with scope ;-)05:03
kristianpauland a cheap logic analizer with my avnet board05:04
kristianpaulalso using milkymist bios, very usefull for debug too05:04
wolfspraulwhich simulation tools do you use?05:04
kristianpaulicarus verilog05:05
rohhm. how many chips would one need to sell per revision of a soc to make any sense?05:05
kristianpaulcver for verification05:05
rohi mean... how is the cost of asic production in detail?05:05
kristianpauland gtkwavefor the vhd out coming from verilog testbench05:05
wolfsprauloh that's very difficult to answer05:05
wolfspraulfirst - everybody is moving forward, so you have to factor that motion (and the related investments) into your plan05:06
wolfspraulthere may be large investments going on around you that you can piggypack onto05:06
wolfspraulwhen you go to asic, you loose the programmability (of course :-))05:06
wolfsprauland the ability to bugfix/update your product05:06
wolfspraulso you need to factor that in and express it numerically somehow05:07
kristianpaul(bugfix) oh dear..05:07
wolfspraulthere are steps between fpga and asic, 'structured asic'05:07
rohsure. thats why it shouldnt be too expensive. say.. 10-20E/each chip05:07
wolfspraulthey have more unique pros and cons to be considered05:07
wolfspraulany optimization will make you dependent on the technology around you, so your design may depend on something in the fpga that is hard to move to another process, even another fpga05:07
wolfspraulfinally when you do start producing, you may need to license/become part of proprietary IP of the foundry, even if you manage to not need any IC design IP05:08
wolfspraulthere may be different models there with upfront payments, or royalties, etc.05:08
wolfspraulas a 'Chinese rule of thumb', you don't need to consider any move away from fpga until you need at least 10,000 pieces of that chip05:09
wolfspraulthat's what I was told by very experienced IC designers who make these kinds of decisions all the time05:09
wolfsprauland like I said, even then you need to carefully consider the various 'move to what' options05:09
wolfspraulbecause there are many, and the costs differ widely05:09
rohso there is no way to build a non-fpga asic when the market isnt something like 20000 or more per revision?05:10
wolfspraulonce you get over all this, if you remove all investment/one-time/IP/royalty costs, the wafer is always dirt cheap. figure 50 cents / chip (say for a 5x5mm die)05:10
rohor how does the initial/running cost ratio stand?05:10
wolfspraulI just tried to tell you there are several factors to consider05:10
wolfspraulit's an equation with a number of unknowns05:11
rohwhat does a new 'mask' cost etc05:11
wolfspraulso I cannot answer your question05:11
wolfspraulbecause every move you make has pros _and_ cons05:11
wolfspraulshort-term and long-term05:11
wolfspraulyes, the films are the most expensive thing05:11
wolfspraulonce you have a film for a wafer, and all IP/foundry issues sorted out, you can make chips dirt cheap05:11
wolfspraulwith my current knowledge, Milkymist the ecosystem would not benefit from any move away from fpga for several years at least05:12
rohtrue. and since its a small market maybe never05:12
wolfspraulit won't help us accelerate the speed at which the free CPU can grow05:12
wolfspraulah I wouldn't say that05:12
wolfspraulwe just have to go step by step05:13
wolfspraullet's look at a smaller problem - when/how/if to consider Xilinx -7 series, switch to Altera, etc.05:13
wolfsprauleven that decision is hard to make, and for now I agree we should first max out what we can do on a Spartan-605:14
wolfspraulour resources may not be best spent switching now, but it's a tradeoff...05:14
wolfspraulso if even that decision is hard to make, you can imagine that a decision whether to 'do asic' is 100 times harder to make still, it's totally speculative at this point.05:15
wolfspraullet's just learn more things and move step by step, then slowly the options that make sense will become more clear.05:15
wolfspraulon that end I am also following Andrew's homecmos project with great interest lately05:15
wolfspraulnot that I think we will make our own asic or fpga in that process anytime soon :-)05:16
wolfspraulkristianpaul: or are you starting to setup your semiconductor home lab already? following Andrew's lab notes?05:16
rohhrhr. sure not.05:16
roh(own fpga soon)05:16
wolfspraulroh: oh, it may emerge as another options, Andrew seems very determined.05:16
wolfspraulnot fpga, asic first.05:16
kristianpaulwolfspraul: not yet05:17
wolfspraulbut if anything it may become an option for very small specialized chips05:17
rohthe homecmos is interesting for sure. but i am not sure how far thats useable for people besides learning05:17
wolfspraulthat remains to be seen ;-)05:17
wolfspraulWerner is making home PCBs and that does serve a very useful function for him.05:17
wolfspraulAndrew's process may very well one day become something that does serve a function somewhere in our processes or products.05:17
wolfspraul'one day' can be years out though, and he or someone else needs to invest a lot of time and money in between05:18
rohtrue. after all opensource also means a 'truth by somebody tried and documented the result before' lots of learning by (sometimes) systematic testing possibilities05:19
wolfspraulif he can make a working Intel 4004 one day, that'd be awesome. lots of things you can do with a 4-bit cpu...05:19
wolfspraulroh: yes, his lab notes are excellent. did you see them?05:19
rohnot really engineering all the time. or maybe a more.. 'special' kind of engineering (opensource in general)05:19
kristianpaulAndrew is very responsible about that 05:19
rohwolfspraul: some05:19
kristianpaulis not that wild hacking that get lost somwhere..05:20
wolfspraulso it may add to our 'continuity', though not now in any practical way, for sure05:20
rohproper opensource always has continuity. since its documented and can be reproduced. havent seen than in the commercial world really05:25
wolfspraulcontinuity is on cash flow there05:27
wolfspraul(seriously, no offense I like this perspective but that's how it is)05:27
wolfsprauland that's not a bad continuity imho :-)05:28
rohwell.. imagine all free gpios would be available directly in linux via the gpio api and some easy to use lib exposes that arduino style05:31
rohyou could even have the gcc on the device to compile the 'apps' people hack up to 'wiggle the 4 pins they use'05:32
rohor maybe even code in scripting languages via some web-ui05:32
wolfspraulyou are talking about the m1 expansion header? or nanonote/ubb?05:33
rohany platform one would want to make popular for the 'swiss knive tool' jobs arduino is not mighty enough05:34
wolfspraulthe swiss knife. I don't even have one.05:37
wolfsprauldon't know how to make a good swiss knife. seems a very niche idea to me.05:37
wolfspraulI'm not even sure Arduino is or wants to be a swiss knife. The one word that pops up repeatedly around Arduino users is 'interactive'.05:38
wolfsprauland interactive can be done without high bandwidth/high mhz05:38
wolfspraulsome Arduino folks like to say 'physical computing', which in my understanding is similar to 'interactive'05:39
wolfspraulswiss knife, don't know. don't know how to make one, don't need one.05:39
wolfspraulif we do well Milkymist One can be known to be a good platform for visual things.05:40
wolfspraulthat would be a starting point imho05:40
wolfspraulvisual swiss knife :-)05:40
rohinteractive as in development. the '20 minutes to blinking led' is _very_ important to give people the learning curve and satisfaction to keep them interrested and continue the learning05:43
wolfspraulfor myself, I want more software05:48
wpwrakcatchig up ... (ftdi a lot of work) hehe. the joy of undocumented internals and the resulting more than dubious drivers ;-)09:41
wpwrakroh: so make an arduino ursurper with some low-cost linux-capable cpu ? you don't need an FPGA for that.09:49
rohwpwrak: that would be nice.09:50
wpwrakroh: for the FPGA, if you want to sell it to the nerds, you probably want to emphasize what cool little special-purpose hw you can synthesize. basically what kristianpaul is doing, just 1000x times easier and faster :) like your 20 minutes to LED09:50
rohwpwrak: i mean.. even the ingenic would do. just make it boot from sd and add some ram, crystal and thats it. rest can be external09:51
wpwrak(fpga) and of course, the tools need to be free09:51
rohwpwrak: for fpga to 'take off' it needs much better and open toolchain first imho.09:51
wpwrak(ingenic) the newer ones can boot from SD. so ... do it :)09:51
rohelse people like me will always use something else (simpler, less hassle)09:51
wpwrakif you look at "linux en caja", thet pretty much have what you want. except that they still have NAND, i think09:52
rohwpwrak: are there some with eth mac and in tqfp?09:52
rohnand is pain and nothing i would like to burden somebody with ;)09:52
rohand it eats pcb space09:52
wpwrakhmm, tqfp may be. the ethernet could be your first "shield" (-:C09:52
rohthen no.09:53
wpwrakplease. you're seriously trying to convince ->me<- that NAND sucks ? ;-)09:53
rohi want internal mac. something proper.09:53
rohnot that spi or dm9000 play-doh crap09:53
wpwrakthe linux en caja board is open, designed in kicad. so you can make you own variant. it's two layers.09:54
rohwell.. then imx28 or so would be the target.. but that excludes all hand-soldering again *sigh* (bga)09:54
wpwrakso you can just add your ether to the design09:54
rohwpwrak: there is no really nice 10/100 nic which can be added without a messy waste and a full databus09:56
rohthats WHY i want internal mac :)09:57
rohkeep the bus clean for nice stuff09:57
wpwraklinux en caja is basically the sakc/sie minus the fpga. but i think you could still simplify it09:57
wpwrakhmm, usb to ether dongle ?09:57
rohnope. too low end09:57
rohhave you ever tried using all that crap?09:57
wpwrakyou're after GE ?09:58
rohno. but serious working 100mbit with working hw filters.09:58
wpwrakhw filters for your own MAC ? or for firewalling ?09:58
rohmeans something like 6-10mbit real multicast load with small packets on the same port should not make it go down like e.g. all enc28xx or dm9000 do09:58
rohwpwrak: hw mac filters like every half way sane mac does09:59
rohso if you dont subscribe to a mac group matching in hw, you dont even get an irq10:00
wpwrakbtw, does thiemig.de have a web shop or a price list ? i wonder what those adhesive mats cost (or where to source them properly, without going through a .de importer)10:02
wolfspraulah the NAND deniers again10:03
wolfspraulgood thing someone invented SD10:03
wpwrakroh: (multicast) is it still not dead yet ? it's been smalling funny for a very long time now ;-)10:05
wolfspraulI just wish more people move from talk to action. I've probably worked with more SD cards than anyone else here.10:05
wolfspraulthey are pretty much having the exact same issues as NAND. ah no, wait. It's SD, I forgot :-)10:05
wolfspraulI'm not against SD btw, but if you have trouble with NAND, you will have the same trouble with SD.10:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: an idea for the marketing department: since linux "BogoMIPS" are self-declaredly bogus, why not left-shift them by, say, 3 bits ? :)10:06
wolfspraulI'm fine with either10:06
wpwraknaw, SD troubles are different. easier software. more graceful aging. more obscure and harder failures.10:07
rohwpwrak: mail him.. or call. its a really small business10:07
rohbut quality goods10:07
wpwraknand can also be faster, although surprisingly often it isn't 10:08
rohwolfspraul: the point with sd is: i do not sell it. its 'user replaceable'10:08
rohand its not 'expensive' as low amounts of nand and makes is 'my fault' to get badblock-foo working but somebody elses (sandisk? etc)10:09
wolfspraulwell then. I have a lot of practical experience with both and I'm saying they are equal.10:09
rohin short... it makes the thing 'permanent storage' in general somebody elses problem and also 'easier to swap' than bga nand ;)10:09
wolfspraulsourcing is the same, tech difficulties are the same, all the same10:10
wpwrak"Handhebelschere (Papierschere)" the translation into normal language is nice ;-) "can i have a glass of 200 ml concentrated hydroxyl acid (water), please ?"10:10
rohwolfspraul: alone the fact that one can remove it, dd a image to it, plug it back in and go on working is worth it for me.10:11
wolfspraulmy feedback is on record :-) go for it!10:11
rohsure... i will put it on my list ;)(10:11
wolfspraulthe good news is - your life will not be harder with SD than with NAND10:12
wolfspraulit pretty much evens out, especially at low volume stuff10:12
lekerneli'm not sure10:12
rohbut i have another (1 device for now) project before that.. which will use a pcengines board as linux hw10:12
lekernelsd cards are extremely pesky when it comes to being compatible with all of them10:12
wolfspraulin higher volume you will start to pay an increasing premium for anything SD10:12
lekernelthank their crap overengineered protocol10:13
rohbecause sadly,, its so cheap and easy to work with... its a pc for 70E10:13
wolfspraullekernel: yes, one of many factors10:13
wolfspraulI agree10:13
wolfsprauldifficult beasts, just like NAND10:13
lekernelI guess they want to keep the IP vendors happy and their design comittees well paid10:13
wolfspraullike any hugely successful standard there's a lot of pulling by many parties, extensions, etc.10:14
wolfspraulthe only times you don't have that is with the unsuccessful standards, and then nobody wants that either, right? :-)10:14
lekerneland make people who paid for the spec feel they got their money worth10:14
rohhm. weird.. my flash somehow works basically allways.. maybe i just buy too expensive ones10:14
lekernelthey would look stupid asking people $30k for a document that basically says "here's the block read command: send command, send address, get data back.  here's the block write command: send command, send address, send data, get ack."10:15
lekernelthat's however the correct way to make a memory card, technically10:15
rohlekernel: sd isnt that far from that ;)10:16
lekernelroh, get it to work on milkymist :)10:16
lekernelthis will make you swallow those words10:16
roheheh.. let me guess.. you believed any of the specs?10:16
rohmaybe we need to sniff some of my sandisk readers timings. it never failed me so far10:17
lekernelI don't think it's a timing problem10:17
lekernelmore various options of the overengineered protocol10:17
rohon the moko also most of our sd issues were timing crap or similar near-electrical details10:17
rohbasically no card really does 25mhz e.g.10:18
rohanyhow. werner knows more ugly details there than i do ;)10:19
wpwrakthe main SD issue we had in openmoko was EMI10:20
Action: roh gladly forgot some of the horrors of engineering abyss we went through back then10:20
wolfspraulI have seen and worked with hundreds of cards, dozens of manufacturers. Can only repeat it. Go and do more of those things, then let's compare our experiences.10:20
rohwpwrak: that was the 'drive strenth' thing right?10:20
lekernelwpwrak, but you used the SoC's controller and off the shelf software, right?10:21
wpwrakthe good thing with SD/MMC/etc. is that most of it is a path well traveled if you use regular hardware10:21
wolfspraullekernel's observation makes full sense to me. lots of work waiting for SD lovers in Milkymist, btw10:21
wolfspraulthe first 'if', Werner hedging his bets :-)10:21
wpwrakof course, on the M1, things are a bit different, because you start from scratch with everything10:21
rohwolfspraul: moko also was a bad example... not the nicest soc, not the best engineering.. basically a chain of spofs all adding some extra bugs for werner and harald to stumble upon10:21
wolfspraulfirst of all everybody agrees that sd is a layer over nand, I would hope10:21
wpwrakbut even the M1 should be fine once you overcome that hill10:21
rohlekernel: the mainboard of the moko was a horror of manual routing madness10:22
wolfsprauland from then on there are _many_ pros and cons for each one, that's why both are still so prevalent10:22
wpwrakroh: drive strength and "superstition caps" :)10:22
rohlekernel: we had evil problems from emi to speakover from line to line10:22
wolfspraulthe Palm Pre had an actual card on the board, right?10:23
wolfspraulsomething like that10:23
rohmagnetic and or capacitive coupling over multiple subsystems10:23
wpwraklekernel: yes, soc's controller and linux :) that doesn't solve all the problems, but quite a lot of them10:23
lekernelin milkymist, linux _adds_ quite a lot of problems too10:23
rohwolfspraul: dunno. there is something called 'movinand' from samsung which is basically a sdcard as bga (saves pins on the soc)10:23
wpwraklekernel: so for the board roh wants, that's by far the easiest way forward10:23
wolfspraulwasn't the most successful product :-) (I'm not saying that one tech detail, if it's even true, was decisive for the market failure)10:23
wolfspraulyes I can imagine crossovers10:24
wolfspraulconnector alone is a headache, for manufacturing. well, there are many pros and cons, really.10:24
rohwolfspraul: i see 'soldered' or even plugged fixed assembled sdcards more often lately. especially on new android devices from asia10:24
wpwraklekernel: c'mon ! linux now runs now in a usable form for for what, about 3 whole days, and you're already complaining that it adds a lot of problems ? :)10:25
roheasier to manufacture. you can just flash the sdcards en batch and simply let the last stage flip it in and clip on the cover. done. no complex flashing with connectors and such10:25
wolfspraulI don't think you can imagine how efficient NAND flashing is10:26
wolfspraulthere are special fixtures and PCs just for that, and you will _NOT_ be able to beat their performance easily. trust me.10:26
lekernelwpwrak, still lacks a lot of drivers. plus we still did not benchmark performance.10:26
rohi know whats possible. and even gang programming doesnt save you from reflashing hw with a custom rig when you got some hw on stock and release a new revision10:26
wolfspraulthey are shuffling the megabytes onto these chips in parallel, unbelievable. at high volume you can even do that higher upstream, right where the NAND chips are made (same for SD cards I would think, but NAND is probably more common in very high-volume applications).10:27
rohthe replaceable way means you stock un-populated hw, readily tested and only add the sdcard shortly before sale.10:27
wolfspraulmost stuff nowadays is over-the-air updatable, or moving there. cards are still a logistical nightmare.10:28
rohwolfspraul: i dont speak about 'high' volumes .. rather what we see.. few to maybe 4 digit sales10:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: (sd connectors) i see two types of uSD connectors: the simple and cheap ones i get from digi-key, which work great. and then the ones people put into certain products, which don't :)10:28
rohyou know how it is.. whats on the box is what the customer has as first experience. better make it count10:28
wolfspraulin low volumes sure, you may come to different conclusions10:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: on M1 we have the best we could find, from Molex :-)10:29
wpwraklekernel: (lots of drivers, benchmarks, ...) 3 days !!!!10:29
lekernel3 days?10:30
lekernelalmost 2 years no?10:30
wpwrak3 days since the the damn thing actually booted into something you would call usable, even if barely10:30
wpwrakseems to me that since larsc and mwalle got their hands on it, it moved forward quite well10:31
wolfspraulthat's not entirely fair10:32
wolfspraulit has quite a long history, but of course Lars and mwalle really kicked things up a few gears in recent weeks10:32
wolfspraulthere was another burst last December/January10:32
rohwell.. i will watch some tv and go to bed now.. it seems it will rain for the next week or so anyhow10:32
wolfsprauland all of last year (2010) and before, Takeshi Matsuya was quitely chugging away and upleveling it, and it booted as early as 2009 I believe?10:33
wolfspraulbut of course there can be a world between 'it boots' and 'it boots'10:33
wolfsprauland yes, progress lately is FANTASTIC!10:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: (memory card holder in M1) hmpf.10:34
wolfspraulhmpf? not good?10:34
wolfspraulwe chose the molex one after actually comparing different ones, the Molex one was worth its extra price tag10:35
wolfspraulI think if you do a connector, you have to do it right10:35
wolfspraulbut a 'right' connector will cost10:35
wpwrakthe thing with such projects is that they only move quickly while the people doing them feel an itch to scratch. and they're hard enough that you don't have a lot of people who can do them. and of course, the platform is obscure enough that few feel that itch.10:36
wolfspraulhuh? and? what's your point? yes sure, that's what we need to break through...10:36
wpwrak(molex) i'm just surprised it's still so bad. at least the one in rejon's M1 felt rather poorly designed10:36
wpwrak(point) sure. and that's what's happening now. i'm just answering lekernel's "2 years"10:37
wolfspraulmaybe you demand the impossible sometimes10:37
wolfspraula mechanical connector with those kinds of precisions is _HARD_10:37
wolfsprauland even though it's 'expensive', it still sells for cents10:38
wolfspraulbest is no mechanical connectors at all, all RF10:38
wpwrakof course, once linux runs properly, with an RT core allowing flickernoise to perform smoothly, rtems will probably forgotten within half a week or so ;-)10:38
wolfspraulpossible but even in that scenario it may re-emerge later in whatever other Milkymist SoC based product10:39
wolfspraul(and I don't think this scenario is likely anytime soon)10:39
zulu7I just bought a TP-Link TL-WR1043ND (AR9132 chipset) and am now wondering what firmware to use... is, for example, libreWRT known to work on it?10:39
wolfspraulif I understood things correctly, even Harald switched away from Linux to a microkernel called 'nuttx' right now, for osmocombb10:39
wpwrak(connector, impossible) dunno. i find it discouraging when, after finally prying it open and inserting a card, the lid comes off when trying to close it. luckily, nothing broke. so at least the "fail safe" part of the design worked ;-)10:40
wolfspraulif that allows him to make more progress in the short-run, I think it's the right decision. Linux doesn't run away...10:40
wpwrak(connector) but perhaps the difficult to access location also played a role there10:40
wolfspraulit will all move to RF10:40
wolfspraulconnectors are a pain10:41
rohwolfspraul: not switched away. the hw isnt feasible for linux and nuttx is simply much less, but useable on arm710:41
wolfspraulyes so I understood it correctly :-)10:41
wolfspraulit's the right decision, it's not 'anti' Linux, but in favor of PROGRESS, which can later applied to other environments, including Linux10:42
wolfspraulthat's how I see it10:42
wpwrak(rtems vs. linux) oh sure. for development whatever help you keep going is good ;-) but eventually, the higher layer driver monster will raise its ugly head beyond the point where you can just deny its existence10:42
wolfspraulnobody would dispute that10:42
wolfspraulalso Linux strength in networking, for example10:42
wpwrakyeah, that too10:43
wpwrakbut anyway, that's still a while away. first more drivers need to work, then someone has to figure out the MMU, then some decent RT core needs to be integrated, and then comes the tuning for flickernoise. the good thing is that the road is pretty clear ;-)10:44
larscwell, the problem with drivers for the more fancy peripherals is, that without flicknoise there would be no user of drivers10:49
wpwrakroh: could this be your chip ? http://gmun.unal.edu.co/~cicamargoba/embebidos/Jz4725_pm.pdf10:51
wpwrakroh: http://www.micrel.com/_PDF/Ethernet/datasheets/ksz8851-mql_ds.pdf10:51
wpwrakroh: there are several bus variants. look for kzs8841 and kzs8851 10:52
rohhm. but all need lots of pins10:52
wpwraklarsc: X ? :)10:52
rohthats why i wanted the internal mac.. to save pcb space.10:52
wpwrakroh: then take SPI ;-)10:52
rohwpwrak: or a freescale in bga10:53
wpwrak(internal mac) then i wish you luck. you'll need it, considering all your other constraints ;-)10:53
wpwrakand what's so bad about, say, 8 data + a few control pins ?10:54
larscwpwrak: X can't make much use of it either10:54
rohwpwrak: it need _lots_ of pcbspace and eats gpio10:54
rohwould make a '40pin dil type' breakout bigger10:55
rohthink arduino with ethernet and linux10:55
wpwrakare the arduinos dil40 compatible ?10:56
rohjuzt a userspace process as 'app' instead of a flashed 'app'10:56
wpwraklarsc: hmm, chicken and egg then. well, just makes the pill a bit harder to swallow, not less tasty :)10:57
rohwpwrak: nope.. but breadboard-compat10:57
wpwrakroh: so it seems that space isn't a concern if you want to compete with arduino10:58
wolfspraulbga is fine, just find a vendor to do soldering for you, can't be that hard10:58
rohwpwrak: its also about drivers and design simplicity10:58
wpwrakroh: i mean, they're using technology made in the 1990es, that tried hard to uphold the virtues of 1980 nostalgia ...10:59
wpwrak(simplicity) how is requiring a chip you can't solder and that forces you to go multilayer simpler than two chips that don't have these properties ? :)11:00
zulu7where do I ask GPL related questions?11:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: unless you value your own work at ~$0/h (and china is far away :)11:01
wolfspraulok I cannot give reasonable input without understanding the end goals, true11:02
wolfspraulwhy not 2 simpler chips? I don't know11:02
wolfspraulif we are just discussing to find the one and only eternal world truth, we will never find it anyway :-)11:02
wolfspraulzulu7: ask here, we are all friendly people :-)11:02
wpwraki think that's pretty much what roh is looking for ;-)11:02
wolfspraulzulu7: but sorry I have to run, he he. dinner time. check back later, GPL questions are always a good start here...11:03
zulu7I heard that Android 3.0 and 3.1 are closed source so far...11:03
zulu7Why is Google being allowed to do that?11:04
wpwrakroh: if you want DIY-able and like ingenic, i'd recommend you look at this guy: http://wiki.linuxencaja.net/wiki/SIE11:04
wpwrakroh: kick out the nand and put the ethernet chip in its place. done.11:04
larsczulu7: they don't have to publish the sources until they publish the binaries11:04
rohwpwrak: nice board. do you know how many layers it has?11:05
zulu7larsc, tablets and stuff has been released featuring Android 3.0 and 3.111:05
rohor how much it costs in bom?11:05
wpwrakroh: 2 and it's all kicad11:05
wolfspraulthe (forked) Linux sources have been published afaik11:05
wolfspraulthey go by the book, not by the culture. was never meant to.11:06
wpwrak(bom) that you have to ask those guys11:06
rohwpwrak: actually i wasnt sure if i want to put the phy on the same pcb and not only do a module which could also be a 5-8 port switch instead a single phy11:06
larsczulu7: according to the internet they released the gpl'ed parts of 3.011:08
zulu7larsc, please send link11:08
wpwrakroh: get some wlan box supported by openwrt and rip out the pcb ?11:19
wpwrakadd a passive auxiliary board with the DIL40 header ;-)11:20
rohwpwrak: thats what i do atm.11:22
rohbut you know how that is. difficult to get the same hw reliably again and again11:23
larscroh: what do you want to build?11:25
rohlarsc: nothing specific right now. i just wished for a cheap enough single board linux computer with lots of gpio and proper ethernet11:26
wpwraklarsc: in german ist's called "eierlegende wollmilchsau". and it also has to be a dinosaur ;-)11:27
larsci see11:27
rohwpwrak: no. much less low end that stuff like the beagle11:28
wpwrakroh: and an efficient multicast router :)11:28
rohwpwrak: not neccessary. just not crashing or dos-ing by something like that would be nice.11:29
wpwraki think you're falling victim to the "there's no tomorrow" syndrome. you shouldn't try to design every feature you'd eventually like to have into it. make something basic that fulfills your minimum needs. then see how to go from there.11:30
wpwrakotherwise, you end up with an ever-growing design you'll never quite finish11:30
wpwrak(and it'll be expensive, too)11:30
wpwrakparticularly if it's a DIY-able board, the cost of making a variant is marginal anyway11:31
rohwpwrak: we'll see. n8 ;)11:36
DocScrutinizerhttp://r0ket.badge.events.ccc.de/  awesome11:59
DocScrutinizer>>The hackerbus is intended for tinkering [only] << :-D12:05
DocScrutinizerlooking at this, I wonder how my twin could have hidden from me all the 50 years ;-P12:06
DocScrutinizeror I did this myself, while asleep12:07
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/dontuse.pdf ? ;-)12:22
DocScrutinizerhonestly, using such a batch for "ticket" of a 4 day meeting is so extremely geek, I love it. Schematics also look good on a first cursory review12:24
DocScrutinizerI wonder though if "Transfer data to other badges via radio: /firmware/tbd" means ToBeDone or TransferBinaryData12:26
DocScrutinizers/batch/badge/ 12:27
wpwrak(tbd) probably both :)12:28
DocScrutinizer>>High-current sink drivers (20 mA) on two I2C-bus pins in Fast-mode Plus.<< WTF?12:28
DocScrutinizeris this meant to establish a 1Mbaud 20mA current loop bus, or what?12:29
DocScrutinizerI thought 20mA tty was obsolete even back in 198512:30
wpwrak20 mA * 3 V (?) = 60 mW tx power :)12:30
kristianpaulwhy radio is 2.4Ghz... 433hz and alike, are evry common for rocket telemetry, at least in the UK i had seen12:31
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/LPC1311_13_42_43.pdf is another "eats datasheets for breakfast" for me :-D12:34
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: You aware of a ircnet server that not require authorized connection?12:38
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: sorry, no12:39
DocScrutinizerdoesn't mean I'd know if there was any12:39
kristianpaularghhh all servers i tried told me same (Unauthorized connection) :-/12:39
DocScrutinizeryou want to set up a peer IRC server for freenet?12:40
DocScrutinizeror ircnet?12:40
kristianpaulnow i need to joing a channel12:40
DocScrutinizeror simply connect with a client?12:40
kristianpaulno more12:41
DocScrutinizerI barely ever used anything but freenet12:41
kristianpaulircnet DocScrutinizer 12:47
rjeffriesreading the backlog, saw statement that a 1GHz ARM is $15-20 that is not correct. Under $513:24
rjeffriesthe Raspberyy Pi effort is  quite interesting I'd claim exciting. comepleted comuter for $50 or maybe less13:25
rjeffriesthis is fun stuff: https://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/wiki/Project_Flow_Control15:04
rjeffrieswpwrak I think you pointed this out. fascinating. http://r0ket.badge.events.ccc.de/concept15:05
kristianpaulI'm curios what plans they have for rocket navigation and telemtry15:12
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: going to camp right?15:12
DocScrutinizerthat's the plan15:13
kristianpaulgood, keep us posted when got there !15:13
DocScrutinizerlooking forward to meet some of you guys at m1 talk15:14
kristianpauli think that will be sebastien and roh fore sure15:15
kristianpaulmay be david k?15:16
kristianpaulwho else is in germany here?15:16
Jay7r0ket badge may be easily created from NN :)15:39
Jay7it even may have no case15:39
Jay7or better to have some transparent case15:40
Jay7acrylic e.g.15:40
Jay7I've seed some ideas about this already15:40
Jay7but previous talk was about Sharp Zaurus SL-5500/5600 :)15:40
Jay7hm.. s/seed/seen/15:41
kristianpaulNET "gps_rec_clk" CLOCK_DEDICATED_ROUTE = FALSE; :_/20:08
Action: kristianpaul sigh http://paste.debian.net/124619/20:13
wpwrakadding new clock domains ? :)20:27
kristianpauli changed some code in namuru, (actually was a bad coding thing)20:28
kristianpaulthen seems, i have to force this signal to not be taken as a clock source...20:29
kristianpaulwich there NONE in the exp connetor from m120:29
kristianpaulbad conding thing from my self, i habe to rewrite some counters :)20:31
tuxbrainhi all20:32
kristianpaulbut seems the clock for namuru still okay...20:33
kristianpaulanyway i keep on my debugging to find whay i'm no getting the 1ms interrupt20:33
kristianpaulhello tuxbrain 20:33
wpwrakphew. yet another large writing task is done :)21:27
kristianpaulgood carrier measuarements are showing finally22:23
GitHub191[milkymist] kristianpaul pushed 4 new commits to gps-sdr-testing: https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/compare/0f659fe...e02076f22:25
GitHub191[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] hardware align support removed - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas22:25
GitHub191[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] Soft reset support and easy readable hw_tag - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas22:25
GitHub191[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] GPS clock rounting workaround - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas22:25
kristianpaula N downcunter have a reset value of 11111... right?23:56
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