#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-07-24

qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-07222011-2041/00:07
wpwraka build .. that means that xiangfu is hiding somewhere :)00:08
solrizewpwrak, i dunno anything about the mechanical stuff, i'm just a coder ;).  I think it's done by an outside contractor so i don't know what they use01:26
solrizebut the first few units were 3d printed, then we got the molds made01:26
wpwrakwould be interesting what Free tools people who do lots of such things use. particularly if these tools allow parametric designs01:27
solrizeyeah i dunno what's out there... the reprap community might have some good stuff though01:28
wpwraki saw some mention of AoI and lately OpenSCAD. AoI isn't parametric. OpenSCAD is, but has its shortcomings. e.g., no automatic filleting and chamfering. such tasks get a little boring if you have to do them with CSG ...01:30
solrizehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeCAD_%28Juergen_Riegel%2901:34
wpwrakah, they use FreeCAD. interesting. a while ago, it seemed a bit feature-poor, but maybe it has caught up since.01:41
solrizei haven't followed this stuff at all; i just found that on wp ;)01:48
solrizei'd like to know what's around in free vlsi cad stuff01:48
solrizemechanical stuff is less worrisome since the results are out where you can see them ;)01:49
solrizeit would sure be nice to have a series of standardized enclosures for different types of products, that were available in small qty and a bit nicer than altoids tins ;)01:51
wpwraknaw, i think you need to be able to fully control the case-making process. for anything resembling CE devices, you need customized cases01:52
solrizehmm, yeah if you want to sell a lot01:52
wpwrakdon't we all ? :)01:54
solrizei'd be happy with a standardized box and small quantity... worry about custom cases once there was revenue from the non-custom one01:56
solrizehere's the audio recorder i want ($$$)01:57
solrizehttp://sounddevices.com/products/702.htm01:57
solrizesomething like that but in an altoids tin ;)01:57
wpwrakyeah. looks expensive ;-)01:57
solrizehttp://www.sparkfun.com/products/287   gsm phone :)01:59
kristianpaulhey that looks like M102:02
solrizem1?02:02
kristianpaulmilkymist one02:03
solrizethe audio recorder?02:03
kristianpaulyeah, a bit :-)02:03
solrizemake from blue plastic...02:03
solrizei'm fine with the m1 packaging02:04
wpwrakan aluminium case could also be nice. much better EMI tolerance, too :)02:05
kristianpaulalso a better shaper, i still dont like the "roof"02:07
wpwrakyou mean the overhangs ?02:07
kristianpaulyeah02:08
wpwrakthat's the price of having a simple 2D design :)02:09
kristianpaulsure :(02:10
solrizei like the wood one too02:13
rjeffrieswpwrak are you awake?03:17
rjeffriestuxbrain for Arduino that suports 802.15.4 radio, search for Zigduino. it is Arduino that incorporates the radio03:23
rjeffriestuxbrain http://www.logos-electro.com/blog/ see for info on software stack status03:25
rjeffrieshttp://groups.google.com/a/logos-electro.com/group/zigduino-discuss another resource03:25
rjeffrieshello wolfsoraul03:30
rjeffries* wolfspraul rather03:31
rjeffrieshi DocScrutinizer04:38
DocScrutinizerhi04:46
wpwrakrejon: heya ! how's life these days ?07:28
rejonfine07:34
rejonworking butt off07:34
wpwrakgood ;-)07:34
wpwrakhave you made any contact with google.org yet ?07:34
wolfspraulwpwrak: rejon is in Taipei!07:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah ! well, he could use e-mail :)07:36
wolfspraulI'm slightly depressed about the m1 rc3 run. early results indicate some smt problem, phew.07:39
solrizehey rejon07:39
wolfspraulrc2 was great on that end, and same smt shop, but rc3 looks suspicious. we know more in a few days (xray etc).07:39
wpwrakso no clear suspect yet ?07:40
wolfspraulso after I'm over digesting the reality, I probably need to expedite rc407:40
wolfspraulno not yet, nothing much I can do now in support anyway07:40
wolfspraulI just want to get the product back into the shop asap07:40
wpwrakyeah, it's all in adam's able hands07:40
wolfspraulbut my feeling is that the yield for this run will be bad07:40
wpwrakwill you send a board to sebastien, for parallel debugging ?07:40
wolfspraulnothing needs to be debugged07:41
wpwrakall those high-current boards are a little suspicious indeed07:41
wpwrak(debugging) well, something's wrong :)07:41
wolfspraulyes but not design related, that would be a bad idea to defocus Sebastien with manufacturing issues07:41
wpwrak;-)07:41
wolfspraulAdam and suppliers will sort this out, it's just slightly depressing as I said, because rc2 was so good so the expectations are high.07:42
wpwrakso he didn't express interest in lending a hand there. okay. just thought two pairs of eye seeing more than one, etc.07:42
wolfspraulno that's not a good idea07:43
wpwrakbut yes, if it's purely SMT, then there's not much he can do07:43
wolfspraulthe boards need to stay in one playce, so they can be xrayed in bulk etc.07:43
wolfspraulit needs to be efficient07:43
wpwrakso rc4 may be very close. let's see about those gates then ...07:46
wolfspraulI need to sort out the economics too, this is all getting tough to finance (but will find a solution)07:47
wolfspraulbad yield is not good :-)07:47
wolfspraulbut bad yield or not, I think my reaction has to be to expedite the next run and focus on finding the rc3 smt issues fast and then immediately making another run07:48
wpwrakyeah, sucks. that one will cost you :-(07:48
wolfspraul(no, not pushing about the gates, I'm just reporting rc3 thinking)07:48
wpwrakso you'd defer the gates until rc5 ?07:48
wolfspraulno, rc4 of course :-)07:49
wpwrakjust checking ;-)07:49
wolfspraulfirst we need more rc3 data, which Adam will collect all of next week07:50
wolfspraulthen hopefully we get a number of 100% pass boards on one side, and can turn them into full products with case etc. in parallel need to understand the root cause of the smt issues.07:51
wolfsprauland in parallel prepare rc407:51
wolfspraulmy own goal/expectation for 100% pass rc3 boards is now between 30 and 6007:51
wolfspraulbut who knows, maybe there's a miracle and it will suddenly improve, but somehow I doubt that07:52
wpwrak100% pass ? hmm, 0% ;-)07:52
wpwrak>90% pass, maybe07:52
wolfspraulno I mean boards that are in sellable condition07:53
wolfspraulthat means they 100% pass all tests, are considered stable etc.07:53
wpwraki wonder how that through-hole dip thing works. sounds mildly scary to me07:53
wpwrakaah, i see07:53
wpwrakyes, that number sounds reasonable07:54
wolfspraulwell. that would make rc3 my worst post-om run ever :-)07:54
wolfspraulwe could learn something very interesting about potential smt failure next week, at least that. and expensive for me too :-)07:56
wpwrakso .. despite it all still not a new record in your life ? :)07:56
wolfspraulno, but I want to learn what happened07:56
wolfspraul4 (5) boards so far are 100% ok, so it's not a positioning problem I think07:57
wpwrakyeah, it happened just at a "good" time. just when you took a larger risk but still had no return from previous boards.07:57
wolfspraulmust be reflow related?07:57
wolfsprauloh sure, and based on the assumption that rc2 was so good07:57
wolfspraul:-)07:57
wolfspraulsomething wrong with the solder material? something wrong with pcb surface?07:58
wolfspraulwhat else?07:58
wpwrakhow's the financial side with the fab handled in such cases ? do they wave part of their fees ?07:58
wolfspraulexactly, that will also be interesting07:58
wpwrakdid you change anything in the pcb making ?07:58
wolfspraulalso I am wondering about the life expectancy of the boards that pass all tests07:58
wolfspraulI'm not saying I'm worried about that but I want to be able to have the knowledge and answer all such challenges/questions.07:59
wolfspraulneed to ask adam [pcb making]07:59
wolfspraulI think it was all the same, same pcb shop, same smt shop07:59
wpwrak(life expectancy) good point08:00
wolfspraulmaybe we are discussing ghosts and the sample size is just too small now08:00
wolfspraulbut I looked at the rc2 results earlier today and the difference to the first rc3 results is rather striking :-)08:00
wolfspraulso yeah, for those who are curious, interesting times ahead :-)08:00
wolfspraulfor my wallet, not so interesting times :-)08:00
wolfspraulit helps when the next armchair general is coming and talks about bom costs and things being 'expensive'08:01
wolfsprauland they will surely come08:01
rejonwpwrak: i contacted google ppl08:02
rejonplaying out various scenarios08:02
rejonno results08:02
rejonor rather in-progress08:02
wpwrakrejon: great. it ought to take a while, i guess.08:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: you could point them to http://sounddevices.com/products/702.htm and mention that this thingy only does audio :)08:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: retails for some USD 1800 :)08:04
wolfspraulsure08:04
wpwrakrejon: what are the scenarios you described ?08:04
wolfspraulI just want to learn as quickly as possible and move forward.08:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: maybe you need a nice metal case. then people will automatically assume a higher price ;-)08:05
wpwrakof course, then roh needs a beefier laser :)08:05
wolfspraulthe diversity of the early rc3 results is puzzling to me08:05
wolfspraulsomething new in all those years08:05
wpwrakor he finally has to unwrap the cnc mill :)08:05
wolfspraulif we are lucky, we can trace it down to 1 (fixable) failure point. that'd be cool.08:06
wpwrak(rc3 diversity) indeed. sounds like too much solder paste or marginal positioning.08:06
wolfspraulI don't think positioning08:07
wpwrakadam could slaughter one board, cut power traces until he can identify one chip/area08:07
wpwraka positioning error at the margin of tolerances would explain it08:07
wolfspraulI think the tool of choice is xray.08:07
wpwrakall you need is one of those many VDD balls to end up on one of those many GND pads. or vice versa.08:08
wolfspraulso the current plan is to fix2 and test another 20 boards, and then take all failed ones to an xray session08:08
rejonwpwrak: emails sent, but no decisions made on these things unless you face to fae with people...engineering that right now...taking some time08:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: have you done xray work?08:08
wpwrakxray is best, yes. whether it makes sense to try something else depends a bit on the queue before xray.08:08
wolfspraulit's very cool. I have heard that you could actually use the xray machine you can find at many dentists as well.08:09
wpwrakwolfspraul: no, didn't do xray yet. i saw some images but had a hard time figuring out what they show08:09
wolfspraulmaybe you should ask your dentist next time whether you can get free or paid access to his xray in the evening :-)08:09
wolfspraulseriously08:09
wpwraki think the expensive part of xray is getting a digital film08:09
wolfspraulyou mean take pictures?08:10
wpwrakwell, the dentist may just take the chemical route08:10
wpwrakthat's inexpensive. but slow.08:10
wolfspraulno so what we do now in Taipei is we know an smt shop that has an xray device, and they are flexible to rent out access to it, by half hour08:10
wolfspraulno08:10
wolfsprauljust a monitor08:10
wpwrakhow much do they charge ?08:10
wolfspraulthe xrays stay on, continuously08:10
wolfspraulnot much, maybe 100 USD/hr or so08:10
wpwraknot too bad08:11
wolfsprauland they will give you an operator as well08:11
wpwrakrejon: alright. at some point in time we should discuss the scenarios08:11
wolfspraulso the total is: pack boards (1hr), drive there (1hr), operate xray & take pics (1hr), drive back (1hr)08:11
wolfspraulsomething like that08:11
wpwrak(give you an operator) sweet. so they don't want customers to radiation-poison themself by accident ;-)08:12
wolfspraulxray machines differ quite a bit in their performance, but I don't know much about that. just that there are cheap and expensive xray machines.08:12
wolfspraulno it's not that08:12
wpwrakand then brood over the results for the rest of the night :)08:12
wolfspraulit's super easy to operate08:12
wolfspraulbut the problem is to zoom in quickly and get a sharp picture08:12
wolfspraulthen you can 'roam' around the pcb, it's very nice08:12
wolfspraulyou can take pictures of an entire pcb the size of m1 in 5 minutes, no problem08:13
wolfsprauljust clik clik clik, 10 pics, then you got it all08:13
wolfspraulyou can also go through vertically of course, but like I said the operator may be helpful in getting the positioning done fast08:13
wolfspraulbut if you get access to your dentist's xray, you have time to play so that's not so important :-)08:13
wolfspraulI can definitely say that if you have an xray nearby, I would always prefer that over any electrical way of tracking down those impedance/short or cold soldering problems08:15
wolfspraulthe only problem is how quickly accessible the xray is to you, if it comes with a big overhead then it's not good. but if not, it's far better than electrical searches.08:15
wolfspraulyou could even effectively use it without taking pictures, by just writing down which pins you saw with a failure08:17
wolfspraulthinking this further, you can even attempt to do a hot-air fix right there, and put it back into the xray to see whether the bug is fixed :-)08:18
wpwrakhmm, this looks inexpensive. i wonder how much else you need for a working system. http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-117555181-camara-intraoral-multifuncional-con-lector-de-rayos-x-_JM08:18
wolfspraulhe he, yes08:20
wolfspraulbut there are 'performance' parameters that can be quite important, I'm sure08:20
wpwrakthere's an xray source. about USD 1000: http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-117909816-rx-equipo-rayos-dental-odontologico-2-anos-gtia-odontotienda-_JM08:20
wolfspraulwhich I do not understand. but the prices of xray systems can go into the millions of USD, and I'm sure that's not just better recording software.08:20
wolfspraulthe one at that SMT place costs 200,000 USD I think, or something like that (can ask again)08:21
wolfspraulactually I may have a picture and model number, one sec08:21
wpwrakyeah. may be that they use different energy levels08:22
wpwrakand they probably have some motor-controlled table such08:23
wolfspraulhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:WeyJia_dage_xd6500_xray.jpg08:23
wpwrakcombine this with relatively low volume and the prices go up08:23
wolfsprauldage xd650008:23
wolfsprauloh sure, I think you can be extremely effective with low-tech as well08:23
wolfspraulI'm just saying there _may_ be performance issues if you now go and buy this dentist stuff :-)08:24
wpwrakthis box also has better shielding than the dental thing :)08:24
wpwrakthat "PRE-WARN" indicator looks nice ;-)08:25
wolfspraulhe, that seems to be a German company actually08:25
wolfspraulwww.dage.de08:25
wolfspraulcan't find prices right away08:27
wpwrakanything that big must be expensive :)08:27
wpwrakalso, it's probably designed for a high duty cycle08:28
wpwrakthe dental x-ray may need rest every now and then08:28
rejonhttp://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/AMD-secondquarter-2011-financial-results/?kc=rss08:36
rejonamd08:36
rejoninteresting08:36
rejoncompany08:36
viricdoes anybody has a fusion?08:55
viricA friend was totally seduced by the advertisements, and felt the need to buy one08:55
viricAPUs... isn't APU the shop worker in the simpsons?08:56
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: mm1rc3rst/: moved to mm1rc3/rst/ (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/5fbc3f909:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: pkgology/1g-dyadic: package overview of dyadic 1G packages (based on 74xxx1G08) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/bc2505109:46
wpwraka question for our native english speakers. the science of packages, would that be packageology or packagology ?10:07
wpwrak"packageology" with imagined two little dots above the e :)10:08
wolfspraulpackageology, my guess :-)10:12
wolfspraulit's awkward either way10:12
wolfspraulpacka-geology10:12
wpwrakheh ;-)10:13
wolfspraulpacka-ghology (not 'g' but 'ghee')10:13
wpwrakwell, homeopathy has the eo pattern as well, although for different reasons. but i guess that makes my pig-greek look credible enough :)10:14
wolfspraulI think it's called packology ? :-) seriously, google a bit10:14
wolfspraulwww.packology.com10:14
wpwrak-ghology sound like the science of ghosts and ghould ;-)10:14
wpwrakghoulS even10:15
wolfspraulI can find 27 occurences of packageology10:15
wolfspraulI think zero of packagology10:15
wpwrakpackology is the science of packing. packageology the science of packages ;-)10:16
wpwrakand none of the packageology hits seem to refer to component packages. a shame ! high time to rectify this10:16
wpwrakmuch as i succeeded to restore "devirginator" to its rightful technical meaning ;-)10:17
wpwraki.e., http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Devirginator10:18
wpwrak(and now the link will go to the IRC log and hopefully boost the page rank a little more ;-)10:18
wpwrakhmm, should get ready to go shopping10:19
wpwrakwill continue with the component research later ...10:19
kristianpaulabout smt issues, you changed this time smt right?13:15
kristianpaulbut also the run was not just straight like rc2? i meean the boards are been delivered by packages of ie 2013:16
kristianpauli just wondering how smt internal  procedures could change because of it...13:19
kristianpauli pointed the smt changes, becasuei dunno SMT/DIP Process Flow is same on all of then...13:22
wolfspraulkristianpaul: no all the same, same smt shop.13:22
kristianpaulhum..13:22
wolfspraulbut in hardware, every piece is unique, every everything is unique.13:23
kristianpaulok, i dont have more to say then :)13:23
wolfspraulthat's why it's hardware13:23
wolfspraulso we see13:23
wolfspraulit will be exciting :-)13:23
kristianpaulsure :)13:23
wolfspraulby Wednesday we know more I think13:23
kristianpaulWed, is full boards deliver? 13:24
kristianpaulalso, as i pointed before i dont see this like a whole run, i mean first 20 boards, then.. xx13:25
kristianpaulbut i guess it was you desition, and this number should not affect internal SMT workflow, no matter the nummer, same grade of preparation i guess :)13:25
wolfspraulkristianpaul: no, it's always one run.13:25
kristianpaulah, i was confused then...13:26
wolfspraulthe pick & place machine is loaded with m1 parts, then one board is produced (pick & place, reflow)13:26
wolfspraulAdam checks that board, which all was perfect (of course)13:26
wolfspraulthen the rest of the boards run through pick & place, reflow, manual or automatic optical inspection13:27
wolfspraulat that point it stops13:27
wolfspraulpick & place machine is unloaded and loaded for next board13:27
wolfspraulnow... some more manual steps are done later, like DIP soldering, cleaning the pcb with a brush13:27
wolfspraulthose can be done in batches sometimes, depends on staff load and shifts etc.13:28
wolfsprauland Adam insisted on early delivery, so they delivered 48 pieces first. in the end every piece is unique and at some point that unique one is finished, right? :-)13:28
wolfspraulthe only question is whether you see the uniqueness, or you wait until you get them all "at once" :-)13:28
kristianpaulhe :)13:29
kristianpaulgood point13:29
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/: moved editing helpers over from gta02-core (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/85d269a15:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/: 74x1g00_5, 74x1g125, 74x2g126 from gta02-core (by Alvaro Lopes) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/a8518e315:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/: added 74x1g08_5 and 74x1g08_6 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/7066fcc15:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/: added 74x1g07_5 and 74x1g07_4 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/9ce03d815:43
wpwrakhmm, i should add some overview pages for schematics symbol review ...15:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/README: described component addition workflow (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/dd771df15:57
rjeffriesGood Sunday 11:04 a.m. from California, USA. Overcast. 59F high will be 69F18:03
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: sourcery/: sourcing surveys for 74AUP1G07 and 74AUP1G08 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/358d32c18:04
rohrjeffries: you are aware that besides people in the us nobody uses F?18:29
rohwell.. and belize.18:31
roh;)18:32
kristianpaulthose imperial measures ;)18:36
rjeffriesroh I thought of that when I posted. As a global citizen I really should have converted to C for my qi-friends18:37
rjeffriesI've visited Belize. Nice place. Go to Cay Caulker if you ever get the chance.18:38
wpwrakroh: you can make fun of them now, but they'll be vindicated in the zombie apocalypse, when all the dead from past millennia crawl out of their graves and all measure distances in paces, feet, and worse18:38
rjeffriesgood morning wpwrak. 18:39
rjeffriesif you need help getting depressed, read this: https://www.businessinsider.com/intellectual-ventures-2011-718:40
wpwrakrjeffries: solar afternoon ! :)18:40
rohwpwrak: hrhrhr18:41
wpwrak"to use iOS developers" nice typo. but there's an "ab" missing :)18:42
rohwell.. patent-traders need to be burnt to the ground same as investment banks if society wants to survive...*shrug*18:43
wpwrakyeah, nothing new there18:43
rohwpwrak: *nod*18:44
roh .oO(trousers... sunglasses... back to the lab!)18:45
wpwraki still have that idea to create a very long island that spans the atlantic, declare an independent nation, then force all airplanes entering my airspace to briefly land and the passengers to go through immigration. pretty mcuh what the US do with international-to-international connections. anyone involved in patent trafficking will be arrested and judged. my nation will have the death penalty for selected heinous crimes :)18:46
wpwrakalas, after sealand, they tightened the requirements for what can become an independent nation, so that plan will be a little more difficult to implement. i think new volcanic islands would still be eligible. so i shall have vulcanologists among my minions when i'm ready to make my move.18:49
kristianpauli think you'll need to build a vessel first, and considering sea is not even well mapped in osm, you may have luck and find interesting islands :-)18:56
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/: changed output pin tyoe of 74x1g07_*.lib to open collector (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/21c356e18:59
wpwrakkristianpaul: i suspect that all currently existing islands have been found by now. satellites are kinda handy for that ... hmm, i'll need a few myself. equipped with death ray guns, of course. BWAHAHA ! :)19:00
kristianpaullol19:02
gnutoognoon19:26
gnutoooops19:26
gnutooI'll relog in kde19:27
kristianpaulI'll do as sebastien, i'll ignore not verified functionallity and make code works upon that..20:09
kristianpaulheck, wishbone cross domain clock, after adding a slight delay in software it dint crash anymore20:09
kristianpaulcross domain clock bridge*20:10
kristianpaul~3.26 Msps (4 bytes/sample), not bad, and milkymist dint crashed, take that metastabillity !20:33
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/: added 74x1g07_6 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b96ea6f23:18
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: for completeness, also consider the 74AUP2G07 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/f949fcf23:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: mm1rc3/gates/: improved reset circuit using 74AUP1G gates (draft) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/86fe3f123:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: mm1rc3/: renamed to m1rc3/ (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/4797aed23:24
GitHub155[milkymist] kristianpaul pushed 7 new commits to gps-sdr-testing: https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/compare/6dd7b0e...0f659fe23:25
GitHub155[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] namuru debug signals enabled, fixed extra bit in irq reg, and removed uncesary commented code - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas23:25
GitHub155[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] fixed port with wrong direction - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas23:25
GitHub155[milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] removed unnecesary clock domain syncs - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas23:25
--- Mon Jul 25 201100:00

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