#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-07-14

kristianpaulhttp://hackable-devices.org/shop/product/nanonote <- Out of stock  :o03:04
wolfspraulyeah well :-)03:06
wolfspraulkristianpaul: thanks for the heads up03:06
kristianpaulfounded just for curiosity i was checking another product..03:09
wolfspraulmaybe one day I setup a real reseller contract03:14
wolfspraulthat way we either have active resellers that help pull in a joint direction, or we can focus on a good online shop and direct sales03:15
wolfspraulalso I should do more to setup affiliate programs03:16
wolfspraulthat way I remain in control of the quality of service, and enlist others to help me attract people03:17
wolfspraulso much good work :-)03:17
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-07132011-0512/09:10
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: did you ever try recvfrom on a ieee802154 socket?10:19
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: I only get garbage in the sockaddr strcut10:20
stefan_schmidtWondering if this is not supported by the stack at all10:20
wpwrakall i tried is in dirtpan :) so no, just read, no recvfrom10:52
wpwrakbut you can find out what's happening - you have the source :)10:53
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: sure, doing that right after lunch. Just thought you might have been hit be this as well.11:20
wpwrakstefan_schmidt: naw, i take care to avoid looking for problems. they find me easily enough on their own ;-)11:23
stefan_schmidtwpwrak: heh11:24
kristianpaulthis is for wpwrak http://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/Fahrplan/events/4453.en.html13:54
wolfspraulwpwrak: if we wanted to integrate ben-wpan on a one-piece Ya NanoNote pcb, how much trouble would we have to expect from the pcb antenna?15:00
wolfspraulif the cpu is a 4760, would you even wire it up to an SDIO port, or would you then opt for another connection to the cpu instead? (separate question)15:01
mthif it doesn't use the SDIO protocol, only the SDIO pins, then any group of unused GPIO pins would work, right?15:02
stefan_schmidtwolfspraul: I would expect it should go to the SPI hw controller.15:06
stefan_schmidtwolfspraul: If I got it right that one is used for the LCD right now while for that one GPIOs would be fine15:06
stefan_schmidtwolfspraul: at least thats how I understand it15:06
wolfspraulok, gpios for the lcd and spi hw controller for the atrf15:10
stefan_schmidtwolfspraul: yup15:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: (pcb antenna) i think as long as you can find a good spot for it, it shouldn't be much trouble. finding a good spot may be tricky, though. it should be relatively free-standing (so, left/right/top edge of display), and unobstructed around the meander15:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: (ant) i think the antenna's ground area could safely be covered by, say, the LCM, though. in fact, this should improve antenna performance.15:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: (ant) one thing to consider would be to add a switch for antenna diversity. that way, there could be one on the right and one on the left. (also as long as there's enough space)15:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: (interface) hw-assisted SPI would be ideal. plus a few more gpios for control functions, one of them interrupt-capable15:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: just idle curiosity or are you thinking in the direction of what should go into the ya ?15:17
wolfspraulsure, Ya pops into my mind all the time15:24
wolfspraulall sorts of Ya fantasies :-)15:24
wolfspraulthe one I was just thinking about was a 4 inch or so LCM, 640x480 resolution, resistive touch, no keyboard (just a flat 4'' tablet basically), 4760 pcb including atrf, case unknown, maybe acrylic?15:26
wolfspraulbut then I think through all the painful details and cannot really convince myself I'm even thinking in the right direction15:27
wolfspraulat least 4760 would protect some of our kernel work, I need to double-check that though, not entirely sure15:28
wolfspraul640x480 would mean a relatively simple upgrade path from 320x24015:28
wolfspraulresistive is easier to source than capacitive (well, I would need some sourcing tours for this Ya anyway, so it could change, but that's my current assumption)15:28
wolfspraulwhat else? camera module - well, would be nice but drives up complexity and number of things that can go wrong and need to be supported well15:29
wpwrakfor the case, maybe something with an aluminium mold ? that shouldn't be too expensive to make15:29
wolfspraulthen I'm worried about market demand, if we are making an exotic geek toy that's not good15:29
wolfsprauland what more could it ever be with the specs of other tablets shooting through the roof...15:30
wpwraknot sure about table form factor. at what size does the killing ground begin these days ?15:30
wolfspraulso I keep thinking :-)15:30
wpwrak(tablet competition) yes ... that's where a keyboard would set it apart better15:30
wpwrakUSB host15:31
wolfspraulto me it's just one big range of tablets, from 3.5'' to 10'' and more15:31
wpwrak2-3 x 8:10 slot15:31
wpwrakso 4" would already be in the "nasty" zone15:31
wpwrak(resistive) sounds good15:31
wolfspraulwell, I'm not sure15:32
wolfspraulanything but capacitive will be labeled as 'outdated' by 99.99% of tech reviewers15:32
wolfspraulwe just need to be real about that15:32
wpwrakif you have a keyboard, the touch screen is less important15:32
wpwrakand all the multitouch stuff is a patentfest anyway15:34
wolfspraulI'm not worried about that15:35
wolfspraulfirst of all no software would make use of multitouch for how long? several months/years?15:35
wolfspraulsecond, multitouch is implemented in the IC that drives the capacitive touch layer, so getting it 'enabled' is already not easy as the guys implementing it make a big fuss out of this feature15:36
wolfspraulthe patents are a political game about markets between big players. it doesn't matter what hype-words some journalist uses in an article, those big guys would throw patent lawsuits at each other no matter what patents they are actually holding15:37
wolfspraulso no, I would totally not be worried about 'multi touch' because of patents15:37
wolfspraullet's just call it 'two finger touch' and done, problem solved :-)15:37
wolfspraulmy concern is simply on ease of sourcing15:38
wolfspraulit may even be easier to talk to a multitouch screen because it's usually just uart with some simple coordinates coming down, wherease resistive is 4 wires and needs to go to an adc15:38
wolfspraulsorry I meant "easier to talk to a capacitive screen"15:39
wolfspraulthe difference between single-touch and multi-touch is only in the software of the IC driving the capacitive layer15:39
wpwrak"for eons, even the most sophisticated human beings have found one finger more than sufficient for communication amongst each other. thanks to sophisticated design choices, our device has the same capability and does need the "multitouch" crutches of inferior competitors" ;-)15:40
wpwrakthe main usability difference may be calibration. not sure how modern resistive screens are doing in that regard.15:41
mtha big problem with capacitive screens is fingerprints15:42
wpwrakin any case, i'd treat the screen less as a touch screen but more as a touch pad. let the keyboard do the work with narrow semantics15:42
mthI use iPod Touch devices for work and I have to clean the screen very often15:42
mthwhich is relatively simple with a flat device, but would be a pain on a clamshell15:43
mthputting a finger on a small screen is not useful anyway, since your finger blocks your view15:45
mthit only works with relatively large widgets15:45
mthwhat about a touch pad on the bottom of the device?15:46
mththere are a few devices like that, but I've never used one15:46
wolfspraulmy main concern is software continuity, and after that it's finding a good market niche with actual sales potential15:47
kristianpaulmth: but ipod touch screen have a glass-like layer that make easier that cleaning task15:47
wpwrakmth: (pad on bottom) not very table-friendly. but otherwise, probably quite nice15:47
mthyes, it's easy to clean, but you have to do it multiple times per day if you use it intensively15:48
kristianpaulsure :)15:48
wolfspraulso most discussions that compare to Apple/HTC/Samsung/etc or that propose all sorts of Startrek-like features will go nowhere, except to be entertaining15:48
mthwpwrak: do people put their NN on the table or do they hold it with both hands?15:48
mthI only have a Dingoo and I always hold it when I'm actually playing15:49
wolfspraulI need to find a niche where I can realistically sell, let's say, 5000 units. Or even 2000 units. If you think about how small that number is in consumer electronics, you will realize the main problem is to identify and zoom in on the customer, and seal the deal.15:49
mthonly for gmenu2x testing I leave it on the table15:49
wpwrakwolfspraul: (niche) i don';t think the "compete in the ardiuno sector" idea is quite dead yet, despite the lukewarm reception of ben+ubb15:49
wpwrakwolfspraul: with many 8:10 ports and a better test point layout, it should be possible to be considerably stronger there15:50
mthwolfspraul: I know I've said so before, but wifi would make it interesting to many more people15:50
wpwrakwolfspraul: also, if we own the design 100%, the platform would become more interesting for derivative designs15:50
wolfspraulI think about use cases first, Ben NanoNote is a great music player, and people use all sorts of pda-like apps15:50
kristianpaulwolfspraul: wich device dimention are you thinking using this 640x480 lcm?15:50
wolfspraulso if the Ya is a successor, it needs to continue to work well on those use cases, and add some new ones15:51
wolfspraulmth: and I've answered before - at least from me - never expect a Wi-Fi device :-)15:51
wolfspraulever ever15:51
wpwrakwolfspraul: (selling) i would try to see if we can find sponsorship for the R&D part. that also takes some pressure from the sales side.15:51
wolfspraulsales pressure is good, I like it. I am just explaining my thinking, how I qualify different feature ideas for the Ya.15:52
wolfspraul#1 concern is software continuity, #2 concern identify and target a realistic market niche15:53
wolfspraulthat's just me15:53
wolfspraulben-wpan has to be integrated, it's something very unique and goes in the right direction15:53
kristianpaul(software continuity) be aware of CLI apps around..15:54
wolfspraulwhat do you mean?15:54
kristianpaulno more vi device :)15:54
kristianpauli mean around in current nanonote15:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: for the lcm, my main priorities would be (in no particular order): 1) access to controller documentation, 2) can be sourced, 3) can connect without complex interface boards, 4) thin/light.15:54
kristianpauli mean, just thinking in all current apps in the nanonote that require a keyboard..15:55
kristianpauljsut that15:55
wpwrakyes, software continuity pretty much requires a keyboard15:55
wolfsprauloh, in my idea above you connect a USB keyboard15:55
kristianpaulor may be i undertood baddly software continuity15:55
wpwrakthat's clumsy15:55
wolfspraulno you understood perfectly right15:55
kristianpaulmini usb keyboard?15:55
wolfspraulyes, very clumsy, agreed15:56
kristianpaullike in the palm era? :-)15:56
wpwrakworse. the palm wasn't really designed to be a keyboard device, so the keyboard was quite optional15:56
kristianpaulhum truth15:57
wpwraki don't think we need to be afraid of making a keyboard. it's something we haven't even tried yet, so it may not be as hard as one would think.15:58
wolfspraulyou mean a diy keyboard?15:58
kristianpaulwhat exactly you with with making?15:58
wpwrakneeds someone with a CNC mill, access to some materials (plastics, rubber), and a bit of time, though.15:58
kristianpaulthats you !15:58
wpwrakwolfspraul: "DIY" in the sense that we want to own the design15:58
wolfspraulwhen I visited our keyboard factory, I was really sad that I couldn't take pictures, or rather I didn't dare to ask because those 2 guys already went way over anything with us as their teeny tiny customer15:59
mthafaik the keyboard was one of the few parts of the Pandora that didn't cause problems15:59
wolfspraulthey have some equipment there!15:59
wolfsprauland 6000 workers16:00
wolfspraulkeyboards are very labor intensive16:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: so skip all the fancy bits and do what you actually can do ;-)16:00
wolfspraulsure sure, I'm just saying. I like your mental approach'16:00
wolfspraul"want to own the design"16:00
wolfsprauleven after our deaths, I guess :-)16:00
wolfspraulwe own everything!16:00
wolfspraulin the keyboard factory I learnt how labor intensive at least the current industry keyboards are. I didn't know before.16:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: not sure about labout intensive. there are designs that look relatively automatization-friendly, but one would have to analyze them a bit deeper16:01
wolfspraulthey have clean rooms, I think class 1k16:01
wolfspraulgod you have no idea, at least from visiting an actual factory that makes 4 million keyboards / month16:01
wolfspraulI mean they have enough capital to automate everything, and they do, but it's still very labor intensive, and lots and lots of steps.16:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: also, we have to keep in mind the volume. an automated process step that takes a few minutes to make the keyboard would be quite okay if you expect to produce, say, 5000 units over a few weeks16:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: (4M/month) and this is exactly the difference ;-)16:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: also, even if it is labor-intensive, that alone wouldn't make it infeasible. after all, you're in china :)16:05
wpwrakwolfspraul: and again, if someone has to work 1-2 minutes, say, inserting keycaps, that still wouldn't be a big deal for the intended quantity16:05
wpwrakwolfspraul: of course, you may want to think of a contingency plan, just in case that 4M order rolls in ;-)))16:06
wolfspraulmaking keyboards sounds like a distraction to me16:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: (own the design after our deaths) well, that's the real value we're creating :) a completely open complete process. that ya should be a lot more than just a gadget16:07
wolfspraulin the general market, the move to capacitive touch is unstoppable16:07
wolfspraulmaybe there are some niches where keyboards will prevail for a while, but then an external keyboard, even if clumsy, may still not make it impossible to sell to such a niche16:08
wpwrakmth: what is the pandora keyboard like ? did they just OEM it ?16:09
DocScrutinizerhttp://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/Fahrplan/events/4412.en.html  looking forward to meet you there :-)16:09
wpwrakwolfspraul: (touch screen vs. keyboard) dunno. but the keyboard here has a different role. first, it ensures continuity. second, it acts as a differentiator.16:10
wolfspraulthat project [openpandora] is such a clusterfail, it makes Om look like a stellar success story. just my 2c16:10
wolfspraulamong many other mistakes they made the wifi mistake16:10
wolfsprauland the preorder mistake16:10
mthwpwrak: it's a rubber keys keyboard16:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: well, if their keyboard is nice, maybe we can also learn from their successes ? ;-)16:10
wpwrakmth: a la sinclair spectrum ?16:11
wolfspraulgod no, please not :-)16:11
mthwhat I meant is, they got so many things wrong, but the keyboard works, so simple keyboards are possible16:11
wolfspraulI think in all honesty OpenPandora turns out to be just a scam.16:11
wolfspraulthey have scammed and betrayed in so many ways, it's almost funny again.16:11
wpwrakmth: is the pandora keyboard also pleasant to use ? (within its class)16:11
mthI've never typed on one16:12
wolfspraulit's scam entertainment16:12
wpwrakmth: but people who have like it ?16:12
mthI think "don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence" applies here16:12
mthwpwrak: I haven't heard complaints about it, but the typical Pandora user plays games and doesn't work in vi all day16:13
wolfspraulok, so that's why I lower to 'scam entertainment'16:13
wolfspraulwhich may actually be worth its money, given the show they put up for it, don't you think?16:13
wolfspraulI mean - have you ever seen something like this???16:14
wpwrakmth: maybe one could plant a text adventure to make hem use the keyboard :)16:15
wolfspraulit's not even open hardware, so thanks god nobody who gets to that level will compare the OP effort to ours16:15
mthtrue, only the software layer is open16:16
wpwrakmth: what's the one with just a single step called again ... ? well, tehre are actually several. but the one that, i think, begins with "re..." is pretty cool.16:16
DocScrutinizerhttp://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/Fahrplan/events/4496.en.html \o/16:16
mthwhich still makes it better in that regard than the GP consoles, where it takes a lot of pressure to even make them comply with the GPL16:16
wolfspraulOpenPandora is a scam, so I'm not sure whether I would rather want someone buy a GP console, or send money to OP and expect ? what?16:17
mthwpwrak: I'm not an expert on text adventures, although I have written a few when I was a kid16:18
wolfspraulyears of excuses?16:18
wpwrak"rematch". this one: http://www.wurb.com/if/game/111416:18
wolfspraulwpwrak: OpenPandora took pre-order money in 2008 and is still coming up with new excuses for the folks who ordered in 2008 and haven't gotten anything yet ;-)16:18
wolfspraulcan you imagine this type of longevity? it's amazing!16:19
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: will you join the camp?16:19
wolfsprauland the excuses were always good and entertaining, and made you want to wait for the next excuse or dramatic turn 1-2 months later16:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: see, in the end, they may outlast us :)16:19
wolfspraulwell, I wouldn't want to have their problems16:19
wolfspraulfor example they need to find a way to identify those of the early buyers who gave up on it on the 2+ years ordeal16:20
wolfspraulbut how?16:20
wpwrakdie young, never have to worry about longevity ;-)16:20
wolfspraulif they come out with a statement now "sorry, we will never deliver", then they get lots of people suing them and what not16:20
mthwolfspraul: "2 months" is always the time needed to completion for Pandora, just like 20 years for commerical fusion power generation16:20
wpwrak(identify persistent customers) that could be handled by the complaints department :)16:20
wolfspraulso they cannot do that16:20
wolfspraulthey can also not just finally do good on their orders, because of infinite incompetence, and also financial pressure by now (preorder money spent)16:21
wolfspraulthe show must go on16:21
wolfspraulexcuses forever16:21
DocScrutinizerno excuses to miss the camp :-)16:22
wolfspraulno I won't come, way too far to get there, too expensive, takes too much time16:22
wolfspraulmth: are you following op?16:22
wpwrakthey could say that they lost tgheir database and customers who still want their unit have to snail-mail in a receipt. make the address somethere in malaysia, with local writing. that should nicely separate those who still care from those who don't.16:22
wolfspraulI think for the show they put up as a tech project, they should setup a donation opportunity16:22
mthyes, I made the mistake of preordering one16:22
wolfspraulahhh :-)16:22
wolfspraulwant me to throw some salt in your wounds?16:23
mththen half a year later I got a Dingoo so I'd actually have something to play with16:23
wolfspraulso tell me. you are still waiting?16:23
wolfspraulif they would now say "sorry, it will never come"16:23
wolfspraullet's say with a very long and dramatic and emotional blog post16:23
wolfspraulwould you 'forgive' them and write off your money?16:23
rozzinThe Pandora website claims `delivery within 7 days', right now...?16:24
mthI'd ask for whatever money they have left, or part or whatever as compensation16:24
wolfspraulthat's their big challenge now, to group their customers into the ones who already forgot, the ones that would forgive, and the ones that would sue16:24
wolfspraulrozzin: nah, even though the 'premium' program was setup to betray on the early preorderes like mth, by now they are betraying the premium guys as well :-)16:24
wolfspraulat least they stay true to their core values16:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think people's readiness to sue is greatly over-estimated. particularly if it's internationally and against low-value targets (so there's no lawyer edging them on)16:25
wolfspraulno, don't say that16:25
wolfspraulespecially in the US there are a lot of 'small claims' courts that are especially setup for the small guys to sue the big corps16:25
wolfsprauland they are very effective16:25
mthI knew it was risky when I preordered, but it's not an amount of money that I'd cannot do without16:25
wpwrakwolfspraul: where is the home of openpandora ?16:25
wolfspraulthere may be similar 'arbitration' offices in other developed countries16:25
wolfspraulthey have legally registered companies in the UK, Germany16:26
mthI've also got a stack of unplayed PS2 and Wii games and added up that's also a lot of money16:26
wolfspraulthis is not the same type of 'sue' like then Apple sues Samsung16:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: not US ? good. then they should be safe16:26
mthalthough I could play them any minute, it's likely I won't ever play half of them16:26
wolfspraulmth: so what would your reaction to that blog post be?16:26
wolfspraulbasically you would be willing to give up your money16:26
wolfspraulsounds like16:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: germany could be tricky if they still have those "rechtsschutzversicherungen" there, though16:26
wolfspraulunfortunately OP may not know you are in that group16:27
wolfspraulanyway, the OP excuse show will go on, for sure16:27
mthwolfspraul: I would want to get compensated in some way16:27
wolfspraulbut it's a scam, really. and it's not open hardware either.16:27
mtheven a broken unit would be better than nothing16:27
wolfsprauljust a big incompetence show16:27
wpwrakmth: maybe a t-shirt ? "i was among the first to pre-order an openpandora and all i got is this lousy t-shirt"16:28
mthI probably wouldn't start a lawsuit all by myself, but I might join a group16:28
wolfspraulyou are more belligerent than I thought16:28
wolfspraulyou got 2 years of freak incompetence show already, that's not enough for your money?16:29
wolfspraulI mean - they don't entertain you?16:29
wpwrakwolfspraul: (incompetence) seems that they lack the courage of doing a clean reset. we've seen this at openmoko as well. remember the quad-band disaster ? sean lived in fear for months because of that. and in the end, nothing happened.16:29
wolfspraulI seriously think it is entertaining, like in a bad comedy movie or so.16:29
wolfspraulyes correct16:30
wolfspraulneed to make drastic back-to-reality decisions, or else you lift off into fantasy land16:30
wpwrakdo it properly, and people will even applaud your honesty :)16:30
mthwolfspraul: it's less of an entertainment if you still have a little hope that one day it might be delivered16:30
wolfspraulwell, the OP case is hopeless16:30
wolfspraulmth: come on. you know how incompetent they are.16:30
mthlike hope of winning a lottery, not a certainty16:30
wolfspraullet's give them a break16:30
wolfspraulamong their many many mistakes was wifi16:31
wolfsprauljust because you mentioned it above16:31
rozzinWhat about wifi?16:31
wolfspraulwifi is a difficult beast, and it already cost OP a lot of sweat by now16:31
wolfspraulmth: do you agree?16:31
rozzinDid they not get it working?16:31
wolfspraulI mean, I can vaguely remember at least 3-5 wifi dramas at OP.16:31
mthI don't agree that wifi is a mistake16:31
wolfspraulseems you still enjoy waiting16:31
wpwrakanyway ..... so, if a ya is to have sw continuity with the ben, then a keyboard is non-optional. everyone agrees ?16:32
mthit is difficult, yes, but it's so very useful that when it does work16:32
wolfspraulseems you like waiting16:32
wolfspraulnot sure whether you want to buy an illusion or a functioning product16:32
mthI got a Dingoo to pass the time16:32
wpwrakmth: so are unicorns. don't give up on the breeding experiments ! ;-))16:32
mthand now even if they would deliver the Pandora I'd stick to developing for the DIngoo16:32
wolfspraulmth: in 3 months you will have 3 year preorder anniversary, right? you think you get it before then?16:35
kristianpaulmth: or upgrade your existing order!16:35
wolfspraulmth: no, they are already screwing over those guys as well now!!!16:35
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I meant kristianpaul not mth16:36
kristianpaulthat's website said ;)16:36
mthI don't expect to get one before 201216:36
wolfspraulit's really unbelievable16:36
kristianpaulsure sure, i realize it now after readinf this chat and checking website16:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: if it worked once, why not try it a second time ? :)16:36
wolfspraulfirst they make the upgrade program, a clear betrayal of the worst kind, and now they scam out those folks as well. argh.16:36
wolfspraulthat's why I rather say 'scam' than 'incompetence'16:37
wolfspraulbut mth, being an early preorderer, has more authority on this than me, a mere bystander16:37
wolfspraulso if mth says it's incompetence, so be it :-)16:37
mthI don't know for sure, it's just my nature not to assume the worst16:38
wpwrakwe should ask them if they could manage the ya project for us. they seem to have a very efficient approach to ensuring long-term financing. and their customer base doesn't seem to be a lot more unhappy than average. instead of complaining about shortcomings of the product, they're complaining about shortcomings in the delivery. what's the difference anyway ;-)16:38
wolfspraul'very different approach'16:39
wpwrakthat too :)16:39
mthwpwrak: I think it's not sustainable though16:39
mthvery few people would pre-order for batch 216:39
wolfspraulif OP wouldn't exist, it would need to be invented. so entertaining.16:39
wolfsprauloh of course not16:40
wolfspraulscamming business doesn't scale well16:40
wpwrakmth: let's see how they solve that problem then. maybe an enhanced model ? or maybe sell the IPR to another company that promises to do everything right ? ;-)16:41
wolfspraulthey will try to sell any more unit they can make to new people16:41
wolfspraulwhile keeping the old preorders unfilled16:41
wolfspraulwhich is what they have been doing for a while already, and amazingly people like mth accept it16:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: speaking of scamming, did yi ever get her ben back from that "business contact" ?16:41
wolfspraulso yes, they have a 'very different approach to long-term financing' :-)16:42
DocScrutinizeryou are aware it's iirc been Carsten (raster) who tried to cooperate with them?16:42
wolfspraulwpwrak: no, many excuses, but she's having fun16:42
DocScrutinizerno surprise they were so reluctant16:42
wolfspraulthe problem for OP is that they leave a growing trail of betrayed/scammed people behind, and it gets harder and harder to rise above that16:43
wolfspraulso they need to be very careful in their public statements, so that people like mth can keep giving them the benefit of the doubt ("incompetence"), instead of looking at legal action16:43
wolfspraulnot a good position to do anything new, new product, new anything16:43
wolfspraulmth: you can search the channel here for me saying very clearly - preorder will _always_ fail16:45
wolfspraulI was consistant in that for years, and it remains true.16:45
DocScrutinizerafaik they were "not interested in any cooperation" regarding building a phone based on pandora16:45
wolfspraulsome people think they can be smarter than the rest, and proove everybody wrong, but seriously. Everybody with experience will tell you that - "preorder will always fail". always always always.16:45
wolfspraul100%, not 99%16:45
wolfspraulthat's because with innovative products, unexpected things will happen16:45
wolfsprauland once you are in a preorder situation, you cannot communicate with your preorder customers anymore16:46
wolfspraulyou cannot ask "should we remove this feature?" "should we fix this and delay x weeks?", once you have several thousand customers you would get dozens of different answers back16:46
wolfspraulso the only thing that works is if you have 1 or maybe 2-3 large preorder customers, let's call them 'financiers'16:47
mthactually the Pandora wasn't all that innovative, it's largely based on the beagle board design16:47
wolfspraulthat works, because you can communicate with them16:47
mththe main problem is that none of the team seem to have any experience with manufacturing16:47
wolfspraulor if you do something strictly non-innovative, like just a buy & sell trade type of thing. you collect preorders, once you have enough you execute the trade.16:47
wolfspraulno they are not listening16:47
wolfspraulthey get exactly what they deserve and what was clear would happen16:48
wolfspraulthe 'manufacturing' you mention there is a boatload of 'innovation'16:48
wolfspraulpreorder in their situation = fail16:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: the keyboard is admittedly one of the most troublesome bits. but we already know several of the steps can be handled efficiently. so just needs a bit more research into the remaining ones. in parallel, it would of course be good to see if, say, something like the ben's rubber-metal-keycaps assembly can be ordered as a finished unit16:48
wolfspraulit's easy to say that now in hindsight, so we shouldn't bash on them too hard16:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: the pcb structude (pcb, domes, film) would be similar it not the same anyway16:49
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah, and for the feature list: no NAND ;-) lower cost, less PCB complexity, more GPIOs to have fun with. a triple win ;-)16:51
kristianpaul(no NAND) yes !16:53
mthif no nand, then 1 or 2 SD slots?16:53
mthsince one would be filled with the OS all the time16:53
wpwrakwe could have "perfect" VGA out quite cheaply via the LCM controller. up to 8 bit RGB (3+3+2 or such) would be very easy. just a few registers, maybe a driver chip (74125 series or such)16:53
wpwrakmth: 2-3 of them :)16:54
wpwrak("prefect" VGA) perfect in terms of the timing. actually, the ben could do that too. one would just have to make an adapter board with a few pogo pins16:54
mthVGA and RGB TV-out are pretty much the same except for the horizontal refresh frequency, correct?16:55
mthah, there was something about having hsync and vsync on one or two pins16:56
wpwrakmth: yup. all the same signals16:56
wpwrakmth: vga has separate hsync and vsync. and the 47xx too, of course16:57
wpwrakit's one of those things we can design-test easily with the ben16:57
mthI remember seeing a design for a VGA to SCART cable, but I never built it because the TV-out from the Matrox card was much better quality than I expected16:57
mthis HDMI an option or is it not possible to do that while being open?16:59
wpwrakmth: the 4760 doesn't seem to have HDMI capability17:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, have you found out anything about the 4765 ? like data sheets, programming manual, production status ?17:02
kristianpaulwpwrak, i wrote ingenic.. as expected no reply, but i tried !17:03
kristianpaul1Ghz catch me i confess :-)17:03
wpwrak1 GHz more like scare me :)17:04
kristianpaulerghh, it was about 477017:05
mthwpwrak: the 4760 data sheet does mention the possibility to send 1280x720 to an external HDMI encoder17:05
wolfspraulno I haven't spoken to Ingenic in a while17:06
wpwrakah, maybe s/4765/4770/ then. get confused about their numbers :)17:06
wolfspraulthey will just grind forward, copy/paste semiconductor IP blocks, tape-out, see what works, run 3 different software teams in parallel, see what works, in all the mess try to sell as many chips as possible, etc.17:07
wolfspraulzero continuity anywhere17:07
wolfspraulI don't care what Ingenic manages to manufacture, I care what software we have and whether it will easily run on any of their new chips or not.17:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: sure. but some of their chips are a bit more long-term-stable than others, no ?17:07
wolfspraulwhat do you mean with 'long term stable'?17:08
wolfspraulthis being a chinese manufacturer, they will make even 1 wafer for you, so moq maybe 500-1000 chips or so17:08
kristianpaullike 4740? :-)17:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: (don't care) if you want to make a device, you need to know the chip ...17:08
wolfsprauloh sure, I'm just saying I don't go there to learn about their latest features, I go there to look for continuity paths for our software17:08
wolfspraulso I need to look at the kernel and ask lars first, not Ingenic...17:09
wpwrakoh, if you can just order a la carte, then it's indeed easy17:09
wolfspraulor Ingenic can pay Lars for work, if he's interesting, but I doubt I can convince Ingenic about this, no matter how much they waste in their crazy internal efforts17:09
wolfspraul"if he's interested"17:09
mthiirc larsc has a 4760 dev board17:09
wolfspraulyes, and I think some 4760 support is already showing up in a unified kernel, I just have no overview17:10
wolfspraulmth: don't worry about HDMI and 'open'17:10
mthwell, he does have a track record of getting drivers merged into mainline, but I don't know if they are already at a point where they consider that important17:10
wolfspraulthat's the usual scare tactic17:10
wolfspraulwe have this problem in many areas, even USB (no trademark/logo rights), *SD (all sorts of FUD), etc.17:10
wolfspraulso if we do anything with HDMI, for sure it won't be HDMI17:11
wolfspraulit will be the Qi Digital Video Interface, QDVI17:11
mthso it won't be called HDMI, but it will conveniently accept a HDMI cable?17:11
wolfspraulor something else out of Werner's kitchen17:11
wolfspraulwe will test HDMI interoperability to our newly created standard later17:12
wolfspraulthese kinds of organizations work with 3 weapons:17:12
wolfspraul1) trademarks17:12
wolfspraul2) copyrights17:12
wolfspraul3) patents17:12
wolfspraul#1 also includes logos (quite important on the retail side actually)17:12
wolfsprauland then trade secrets, but since we don't break into anybodys office that's never a problem for us17:12
wolfspraul#2 is easy, since we only use proper free software17:13
wolfspraul#1, well, no 'HDMI' anywhere, also no claims of 'HDMI compatibility' (only the trademark owner has the right to claim compatibility)17:13
wolfspraul#3 will always hang over anybody, I go by practical threats and afaik HDMI is not known to be an aggressive patent enforcer. If they are, I would like to find out.17:14
wpwrakwe could "leak" the BOM, with the part identified (by the manufacturer) as "HDMI receptacle" or such :)17:14
wolfspraulno it won't help, we have to work clean17:15
wolfspraultrademark is trademark17:15
wolfspraulthat is actually a problem on the sales/retail side, in brochures, etc.17:15
mthdoes it realy work thay way? for example 3rd party controllers for PlayStation list the name "PlayStation" on their boxes to identify the system it can be used with, but do not use the logo since they are not approved by Sony17:15
wolfsprauland they know that, so they enforce that quite strict17:15
wolfspraulit's a big world17:15
wpwrakif the part manufacturer has the right to call it "HDMI", why couldn't we identify the part as "HDMI" as well ? (without making claims about the rest of the device, obviously)17:16
wolfspraulwhere I like you can find Nckia, Nokic, Smugsnug, Sumsung, and so on17:16
qi-bot[commit] kyak: config.full_system: disable some busybox utils in favor of already included fully-functional counterparts; enable all dejavu fonts (the package had been splitted recently); enable ip utility (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/848173c17:16
wolfspraulso I have no idea about those PlayStation controllers, where they are made, where they are sold, why they think they can do this, etc.17:16
wpwrak"smugsnug" is cute ;-)17:16
wolfspraulSony may also have a trademark policy somewhere that allows this, for some markets, in some cases, etc.17:17
wolfspraulall variations17:17
mththey are sold in all game and toy stores in the Netherlands17:17
mthit's not mail-order from Hong Kong thing17:17
wolfspraulI'm just trying to decipher the HDMI situation, because you are worried about HDMI and 'open'17:17
mthif Sony doesn't have to allow 3rd parties, they won't17:17
mththey are one of the worst companies in that regard (about as bad as Apple)17:18
wolfspraulI don't know about any particular case, first I try to explain my thought process17:18
mthsee Memory Stick17:18
wolfspraulyes, HDMI is known to be restrictive17:18
wolfspraulthat's why we have DisplayPort now17:18
wolfspraulbut then it comes down to trademarks/logo, copyrights, patents17:18
wolfspraula normal commercial company cannot make a product without all of this17:18
wolfspraulbut we can17:18
wolfspraula) our software is all free software17:18
wolfspraulb) we make sure the company is not also an aggressive patent enforcer/troll17:19
wolfspraulc) we stay away from their trademarks/logos17:19
wolfspraulthat only leaves the problem how we actually communicate the feature, but then we need to stay true to ourselves17:19
wolfspraulwe cannot communicate it as 'hdmi' easily, maybe not at all17:19
wolfspraulmaybe we can say somewhere that we did HDMI testing and found some to work, we can publish a list of 'white-listed' peripherals or so17:20
mthor call it "H-video out"?17:20
wolfspraulif we are very brave we can say 'hdmi-like' (as opposed to 'hdmi-compatible')17:20
wolfspraulthat's the maximum, and it's right on the fine line of the law17:20
wolfspraulbut the less hdmi the better, and 'hdmi-like' maybe somewhere in the find print or footnotes or so17:21
wolfspraulfine print17:21
wolfspraulbut if all this is followed, I am not worried, we can definitely implement a digital video output that we test against some hdmi-compatible tvs :-)17:22
wolfsprauland not pay a royalty, and not have to worry about opening our design and software17:22
wolfspraulthen the only thing that remains is an aggressive patent enforcement, but we take that risk in many places17:22
DocScrutinizerif it's like a compatibility list, then I guess you are allowed to write "this acme headphones work for Nokia, Sony, iPhone" or "Controller for PlayStation"18:02
DocScrutinizeryou must not however claim it's a genuine playstation product, a Sony product, or use any of Sony's logos18:03
DocScrutinizerI frequently find statements similar to "compatible with all HDMI displays like A, B, Foo"18:13
qi-bot[commit] Jiri Brozovsky: Cscope source code browser -initial port to OpenWRT. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1ce048c20:20
viriccscope works great.21:20
viriceven better, with cbrowser.21:20
kristianpaulah, you are Jiri !21:26
Action: kristianpaul read who usefull could be cscope 21:26
viricI am not21:27
viricI promise I don't commit to openwrt :)21:28
viricI'm the one of "nix"21:28
kristianpaulok ;)21:28
viricbut I'm an old user of cscope21:29
viricthat was the only piece that could handle fast the code I had to deal with21:29
kristianpaullooks interesting i must admin, ack-grep and grep have limits also my screen session..21:29
tuxbrain_HxxHhzowpwrak: ping21:34
kristianpaulhe, i need something like that for verilog :-D21:34
kristianpaulhello tuxbrain ! :_)21:34
tuxbrainhi kris :) hi all21:35
tuxbrainwpwrak: need help with the Latex file, I have translated it but it doesnt "compile" and doesn't generate the pdf file. can any one help me, I don't understand anything on the error log21:36
wpwraktuxbrain: what's the error ?21:37
wpwraktuxbrain: and where did you put the source ?21:37
tuxbrainsource: http://pastebin.com/i2B2FcCV21:38
tuxbrainerror log:http://pastebin.com/NFv9iHvB21:39
tuxbrainI have to wake up in 4 hours to take the plane to Bilbao, and I have not the presentation yet... youuuhuuu21:40
wpwrak4 hours is plenty :)21:41
tuxbrainyes if I achive to sleep 3 of that 4 ours I will have doubled the sleeping media of this week21:42
wpwrakmaybe you should be careful. too much sleep all of a sudden. that can't be healthy :)21:43
tuxbrainevery infinitesimal part of my body dissagrees with you21:46
wpwrakthis will fix the error: http://pastebin.com/0XNRZfbM21:46
wpwraki get the non-ASCII characters all wrong, too. not sure what they look like at your end21:46
wpwrakthe proper way of doing accented characters would be for \'a, \'e, \'i, \'o, \'u, \~n21:49
tuxbrainok gonna try search and replace of this21:49
wpwrakactually, instead of \'i, you should write {\'\i}, but it seems they now both produce the same result21:50
wpwrakah, here 's an easier solution:21:51
wpwrak(i never use non-ASCII :)21:52
tuxbrainarrrgh and for the ñ?21:53
tuxbrainok the \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}21:57
tuxbrainworks :)21:57
tuxbrainwpwrak: mmm letter is too big22:02
tuxbrainin some diapos it overcomes the edge22:02
wpwraktuxbrain: in geneal or just at some spots ?22:02
wpwraktuxbrain:  yuo can try reducing the 14pt in the first line22:02
wpwraktuxbrain: or trim the problem text a little22:03
tuxbrainfuck dude next time open office like whatever else in the world , right? :P22:04
wpwraki was thinking of writing it directly in postscript ... :)22:04
tuxbrainI also have a piece of stone and piece of metal to borrow you to next doc22:06
tuxbrainrunic fonts works best with that standard22:06
wpwrakhmm, i could then cnc-mill my talk. present it on stone tablets .. sounds classy :)22:07
tuxbrainok I think know is acceptable22:13
tuxbrainwpwrak: http://pastebin.com/BX0abKpS can you please add it to your repo and generate a downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/fisl12_es.pdf ?22:16
wpwraknaw, what;s the name of your conference ? :)22:18
tuxbrainf4hc  stands for "Fredom for hardware and comunications"22:20
wpwrakpage 9: sure you want to capiltalize "Esquemas" ?22:21
wpwraksimilarly, page 11: "Coloracion Realista" (the R)22:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/talk-ex.tex: Spanish translation, by David Samblas (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6ec53ad22:26
wpwraktuxbrain: what's your projects.qi-hardware.com user name ?22:26
tuxbrainI like the R , I agree with the E22:27
tuxbrainI think is tuxbrain22:27
wpwrakdsamblas = David Samblas 22:28
wpwrakmutrox = David Reyes Samblas Martinez22:28
wpwrakseems dsamblas is the one you use22:28
tuxbrainyes I think so22:28
wpwrakyou now have commit access to wernermisc, so you can edit it if you want22:29
tuxbrainok I will try to not mesh anything :)22:29
tuxbrainwell time to sleep22:29
tuxbrainthree hours of full sleep, wow incredible :)22:30
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/talk-es.tex: fixed capitalization of esquemas in mid-sentence (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/419dd4422:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/Makefile: added generation and uploading of the Spanish translation (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/4fb280c22:33
--- Fri Jul 15 201100:00

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