#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-07-10

ignatius_ok. stupid question, I just upgraded to the latest version of OpenWRT. and for the life of me, I can't figure out how to get networking working. i'm using the ks7010 micro sd card. before, all I had to do was "iwconfig eth0 essid any; dhclient", now that doesn't seem to work. anyone have any ideas why?00:33
kristianpaulmay be kyak but i think he is sleeping now00:34
kristianpaularghh, i forgot clock domain syncs..01:21
kristianpauli wonder how sane routing clock domain sync will be having all 12 chanells.. but lets try with one first01:22
wpwrakignatius_: i'd suggest to ask on the mailing list. kyak is a well-known owner of two such wlan boards, but he has troubles with both (hardware issues are suspected), so he may not be able to help you much.01:28
kristianpaulwhat a mess, this should be in both ways..01:36
kristianpaulbe done*01:37
kristianpaulanyway..01:37
wolfspraulwell, but ignatius_ sounds like he had this working before, and now it stopped01:49
wolfspraulsoftware regressions, which may also be behind the problems kyak sees?01:50
wpwrakwolfspraul: yes, that could explain things. it's a friendlier explanation than really bad QA :)01:53
ignatius_yeah. I did have it working before.01:56
ignatius_with the Debian root image, though.01:56
wpwrakhmm. that promises to get interesting :)01:57
ignatius_when I execute a "iwlist eth0 scanning" it detects a few wifi hosts.. but when I execute dhclient, it doesn't do anything.01:58
ignatius_so.. is dhclient the problem? that's what i'm wondering.01:58
wpwrakignatius_: are any of the hosts open (unencrypted) ?01:58
kristianpaulgood question :-)01:59
ignatius_maybe, if i examine the /etc/init.d files in the Debian OS pertaining to networking, i'll get an answer..01:59
wpwrakignatius_: naw, iwlist scan should tell you this01:59
ignatius_well, I have my own wireless router...01:59
ignatius_but, yes, there are 2 unencrypted hosts.02:00
kristianpaulyou did iwconfig eth0 essid wifinetname02:00
kristianpaul?02:00
kristianpaulbefore dhclient?02:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: that thingy does support WPA, doesn't it ? (every once in a while, you can find an ancient chip that doesn't)02:01
ignatius_yes.02:01
Last message repeated 1 time(s).02:01
wpwrakignatius_: (unencrypted) perfect. then you can try to associate to them02:01
kristianpaulignatius_: if so can you skip then dhclicnet and just configure ips manually so it should work this way too i think02:02
ignatius_well, I have two NanoNotes.. one with OpenWRT, and another with Debian. the Debian machine works flawlessly.02:02
wpwrakignatius_: iwconfig  should show you if the association works ("Access Point:" shows a MAC address)02:02
ignatius_you mean "Address:" ?02:03
wpwrakignatius_: dunno. this is what iwconfig output looks like on one of my PCs (not a ben): http://pastebin.com/sqYVpcNH02:05
wpwrakignatius_: the AP's MAC address would be after "Access Point:"02:05
wpwrakignatius_: otherwise, i think it says "not associated"02:05
ignatius_hmm.02:06
wpwrakignatius_: maybe just paste the iwconfig output :)02:06
ignatius_well, there is a hexidecimal string after "Address:" on my machine.02:06
ignatius_is there a way to skip the dhclient step and set up the networking another way?02:07
kristianpaulifconfig ?02:08
ignatius_i'm not too knowledgabe on wireless mechanics in Linux.02:08
kristianpaulis same as ethernet02:08
ignatius_ifconfig.. iwconfig.. whichever02:08
kristianpaulhum02:08
kristianpaulwhat ip adressing your acces point implements? ie 192.168.0.xxx02:09
kristianpaulwhat is your gateway02:09
kristianpaul?02:09
wpwrakignatius_: first of all, the access point you're now associated with, it this your own or somebody else's ?02:10
kristianpaul;-)02:10
wpwrakignatius_: i.e., do you know its configuration ?02:10
kristianpaulare yoy already connected to it?02:10
ignatius_it's my own.02:10
ignatius_not with the NanoNote.02:11
kristianpaulwith your laptop, so that can tell us the netowrk configurarion easylly runnning ifconfig on that machine that is connected02:11
ignatius_although, the "wavmon" utility shows that it is connected.02:11
wpwrakignatius_: hmm, so your laptop is associated with your access point but your ben isn't ?02:11
ignatius_yes.02:12
wpwrakignatius_: or are both associated but only the laptop has TCP/IP working ?02:12
ignatius_that is.. I can connect to the network with every machine but the NanoNote running OpenWRT.02:12
wpwrakignatius_: can you paste the output of  iwconfig  from your laptop ? e.g., on pastebin.com02:13
ignatius_hmm. good question. not sure if networking is working...02:13
ignatius_my desktop machine?02:13
ignatius_or the NanoNote with Debian?02:14
wpwrakignatius_: the laptop you said is associated with your access point02:15
ignatius_hmm... it just occured to me... maybe I have to do a "init 3" ???02:15
ignatius_hold on a sec02:15
wpwrakignatius_: we'll get to the ben later. first i want to see what your laptop is doing02:15
ignatius_thanks, BTW.02:16
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/usbperf/: measure the rate of control transfers a device can do (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/97604d702:17
ignatius_bleh. now my laptop is refusing to connect.02:21
ignatius_i'm going to reboot. maybe that'll help.02:21
wpwraksuccess !! now the ben is as good as the laptop ;-)02:21
wolfspraulI think in theory it does support WPA, yes02:37
wolfspraulbut I don't know much about it, never used it02:38
ignatius_ok. I got an "Access Point"02:50
ignatius_on the NN02:50
wpwrakgreat !02:50
wpwraknow, does dhcp work with it ?02:51
ignatius_when I start dhclient.. it just hangs there.02:52
wpwrakcan you paste the output of  iwconfig  (on the ben) ?02:52
wpwrak(e.g., on pastebin.com)02:53
ignatius_it just locked up.. hold on. rebooting02:53
ignatius_http://pastebin.com/DXN63cfj03:19
wpwrakignatius_: looks great03:29
wpwrakignatius_: does  dhclient -d eth0  say anything interesting ?03:31
ignatius_that did it. :)03:34
ignatius_although, it doesn't fork into the background.03:35
reubenthe -d flag does that03:39
ignatius_ah.03:41
ignatius_thanks for the help, wpwrak.03:48
kyakheh yeah, my problem is that 'iwlist scanning' doesn't even return anything06:31
kyakit says "no data"06:32
kyaki guess it might be hardware issues, as wpwrak mentioned06:32
qi-bot[commit] kyak: qball: patches went upstream, updated to 1.3 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/3b735b008:29
CapnKernelHello and welcome from sunny Shenzhen12:39
CapnKernelI just got back from a meeting of the Shenzhen Linux User's Group, where I heard some great talks, and spoke with a fantastic group of like-minded geeks about starting a hackerspace here.12:40
lekernel:)12:42
wolfspraulCapnKernel: great. tell them a bit about the Ben NanoNote and Milkymist One too ;-)12:42
CapnKernelOh, they told me!12:43
wolfspraulfor Ben NanoNote I'm sure they've heard about it before, because we have/had some quite active guys in szlug12:43
wolfspraulyes, there you go :-)12:43
CapnKernelThey know all about Qi hardware12:43
wolfspraulbut maybe they don't know Milkymist One yet12:43
wolfspraulwhich is a far more serious hacker tool than the Ben12:43
wolfspraulyou can fly to the moon with m1 :-)12:43
CapnKernelThey didn't mention m112:43
wolfspraulyes. so you need to evangelize...12:44
CapnKernelI would except that I don't know it either12:44
wolfspraulfree CPU, super powerful programmable visuals and fpga etc.12:44
wolfspraulwww.milkymist.org12:44
wolfspraulthe world's most powerful and most free CPU/SoC12:44
wolfspraulCapnKernel: what did you learn from them?12:45
CapnKernelThat there is something very universal about being a geek :-)12:45
wolfspraulbtw, watch your safety in Shenzhen. it's probably the city with the most street crime in China.12:45
CapnKernelAnd about being a hacker12:45
CapnKernelwolfspraul: Thanks12:45
wolfspraulit's a seriously wild place12:45
CapnKernelI'm told it's the place that Guangdong folk point to, and say "that's a wild place".12:46
wolfspraulyou must be careful with your purse, any bag you have around you etc.12:46
CapnKernel(And Guangdong has the reputation as China's wild place)12:46
wolfspraulwallet I mean, not purse :-)12:46
CapnKernelI don't know, I found one that suits my suits just nicely.12:46
CapnKernelSorry, suits my shoes12:46
wolfspraulwell I've told you - be careful there12:47
wolfspraulthey are very fast, they work in teams, they bribe local security etc.12:47
CapnKernelYes you've told me, and I wouldn't be surprised if something happens.12:47
wolfspraulI'm speaking from experience...12:47
CapnKernelI believe you12:47
wolfspraulno but you have to be faster/more alert than they are, that simple12:47
wolfspraulChina survival12:47
CapnKernelI look out for distractions12:47
CapnKernelThings that can take your eye off what's important12:48
CapnKernelLike somebody dropping something12:48
wolfsprauljust keep anything valuable super close to your body, best in front etc.12:48
CapnKernelNoted12:48
wolfspraulyes, binding their shoelace12:48
CapnKernelBit hard when you've got a computer on your back12:48
wolfspraulI was never impressed with the quality of hackers I found there, in the end.12:49
wolfspraulalthough, in their favor, it's extremely hard to be a good hacker from mainland china12:49
wolfspraulthe so called great firewall is crazy, it totally blinds you, excludes you12:50
wolfspraulso probably they have no chance, until they take that piece of shit down12:50
CapnKernelOne guy showed me a phone he'd made for his grandmother.  She can't see, and certainly can't dial numbers.  The phone has a large 4x4 keypad, with each key being a different person.  She presses one button, it dials that person.12:50
wolfspraulthat's nice12:50
wolfspraulsnap a picture...12:51
CapnKernelHe had an atmega32 in there, line interface circuit, standard phone tx/rx chip, was doing dtmf generation in software, etc.  Very very hackerish, very very improve society.  That's what it's all about12:51
CapnKernelThese guys are ready12:52
CapnKernelSeems most of them use VPNs and are well versed in getting what they need to know from wkp.12:52
CapnKernelFor example, these guys know who Bunnie Huang is, and know what he's done.12:54
CapnKernel(BTW I have been speaking with Bunnie)12:54
wolfspraulno I stand by my assessment12:57
wolfspraulthere is no quality there :-)12:57
wolfsprauland the firewall does have grave consequences and seriously limits even the talented guys12:58
wolfspraulif werner would be inside the firewall for too long he would become a mountain terrorist, for sure12:58
wolfspraulit's 'thought crimes', committed every day, thousands of times12:58
wolfspraulCapnKernel: next time you see an interesting hardware hack (like that phone), remember you take a picture and write a short blog post about it12:59
wolfspraulthey will seriously be happy and it will help everybody12:59
CapnKernelI know what you're saying.13:00
CapnKernelSpecifically about the phone, and cool projects, I'd rather THEM write about it, in their own words, so they develop their own compulsion to share.13:00
wolfspraulthe effects of the firewall are slow (it's designed to function like that)13:00
CapnKernelInformation is power.13:00
wolfspraulok, then we can wait forever13:01
wolfspraulso the firewall will slowly, little by little, drive people to give up13:01
wolfspraulgive up wordpress.com, give up watching interesting stuff on youtube, give up wikimedia commons, give up blogspot, give up twitter, and so on13:01
wolfspraulyou have to take the picture, and you have to blog about it. otherwise nothing will happen, quite simple.13:02
CapnKernelwolfspraul: I know what "learned helplessness" is.13:03
CapnKernelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness13:03
CapnKernelwolfspraul: What time you arriving?13:04
wolfspraulI disagree. you have to reach out and help them by bridging the gap first. even if that leads nowhere, at least a few people may see your example and one day remember.13:04
wpwrakthere was life on earth before the internet :) but yes, once you're used to it, it's hard to get by without13:04
wolfspraulbullshit about 'learned helplessness' when you have the world's most sophisticated censorship and propaganda machine around you since birth13:05
wolfspraulyou have to help them, and decisively. by giving an example.13:05
wolfspraulwpwrak: that firewall would drive you nuts, I know it :-)13:06
wolfspraulespecially how it is done, he13:06
wolfspraulthe sllooooooooooow poision13:06
wolfspraulso slow it's unnoticable13:06
wolfspraulbut with dramatic effects over time, especially on hackers13:06
CapnKernelwolfspraul: I really appreciate your advice, but I think we're done now.13:10
wolfspraullooking forward to your findings, keep us posted13:10
wolfspraulyou plan to open a hackerspace there?13:11
wolfspraulwill it have a website?13:11
wolfsprauland yes, I'm definitely curious to see a picture of that phone, hopefully one day...13:12
CapnKernelI plan to use my experience to help them open their own hackerspace.13:16
wolfspraulgood. the more they have a chance to interact with you, personally, the better for them.13:17
wolfspraulI was there many times, but now I focus on what I've learnt :-)13:17
wolfspraulgetting selfish, he...13:17
wolfsprauljust thinking. shenzhen is not too far from hong kong. could you setup some sort of high-speed direct link to HK?13:20
wolfspraulmany some powerful and directed antennae?13:21
wolfspraulthe hackerspace wouldn't stand too long, but it'd be a really cool project13:21
wolfsprauls/many/maybe/13:21
wolfspraulI recently found out about fabfi.fablab.af and guifi.net, very cool projects imho13:23
wolfspraulthe extension for ben-wpan :-)13:23
CapnKernelWhat would a high speed link do?13:25
CapnKernelI have told them I'm here three months for investigation, with the option of a few years if it looks good.13:25
CapnKernelHaving the hackerspace provide communication services is a dumb thing, as it then makes the organisation a target for attention.13:26
lekernelit's a waste of time, too13:26
CapnKernelThese guys know how to get what they want, and each can deny knowledge of what the others do, should there be a problem.13:26
lekernelany geek can run a server in their garage, there's no need for a hackerspace for that13:27
CapnKernelkeep the surface area of a potential target as small as possible13:27
CapnKernelI'll be back later13:27
lekernelhackerspaces should be for large CNC machines, semiconductor labs, etc.13:28
lekernelmost other uses are boring13:28
CapnKernellekernel: You may be conflating the idea of a place, with an organisation.13:29
CapnKernelIt's great to have a place to keep larger stuff.  But an organisation can still work with people carrying their own stuff.13:29
CapnKernelWhat we've found in Melbourne is that the value of a hackerspace is not just in the technical sharing, but the social aspect.13:31
CapnKernelComing together to share reinforces the idea.13:31
lekerneloh, yeah, but I've seen too many hackerspaces becoming pure social spaces13:32
lekernelsocializing is nice, but it's not what hacking is all about13:32
CapnKernelI will try to help with what I have learned from my experience in Melbourne.13:33
lekernelif you just want a meeting point, you can do something like 2600 meetings13:35
lekerneleasy to set up13:35
kristianpauloh, to kernels i tought i never will saw something like that ;)13:43
kristianpaulhello CapnKernel 13:44
kristianpaulI agree with lekernel said, hackerspace is for big stuff (hopefully expensive too) that need to be place on a common place13:44
kristianpaulthe rest can stay at home,13:45
kristianpaulI pointed expensive because that make you look for more people and buy/build it together somethimes13:45
kristianpauls/saw/see13:49
wpwrakkristianpaul: like "it's too heavy for a single person to move" ;-)13:53
kristianpaulyes13:53
CapnKernelSome of the hackerspaces in Australia have laser cutters and lathes.  They are good candidates for putting in a hackerspace.14:30
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-07092011-1130/15:12
kristianpaulwpwrak: may be you already checked this but your troughput problems with atusb is not maybe about a buffer limitation in the atmega side?22:38
kristianpaulwell, i remenber same experience with burst transfer using microchip mcu and i remenber conclusion was around that22:41
wpwrakkristianpaul: naw, i think i understand it now. it's a limitation of how the UHCI works. need to write it up.23:51
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