#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2011-06-28

awwpwrak, man, i hope i don't need to check mounted conditions of atben & atusb, but seems that i have to do after read your email. :-)01:10
kristianpaulbenefit of the doubt ? ;-)01:14
awafter quick checking, no obvious bad1~3 on mine. :-) btw, the packing for atben & atusb is not good though, they are wrapped together in small box without seperate each piece, this may cause resistor missed. since i can't see deeply and clearly it from that atusb-bad2.jpg01:37
awthe possible reasons are either smt machine is under fine tune and didn't mount that resistor or drop by collision(wrapping together), this can be determined on seeing both resistor' two pads's soldering condition.01:39
awif the two pads are well-soldering and no symptom on resistor mounted, then smt machine missed; or the other reason. :-)01:41
awwpwrak, your atusb-bad1.jpg is likely the same story while my jtag first panel mounted, one(single piece) of them(panel) they was trying to pick and place at first time then later smt operator who forgot to place correctly back though. :-) no AOI, no visualization manually. :-) It's seem that often to happen in first panel mounted out. not surprised though. :-)01:48
wolfspraulmethril: do you go to FISL?02:17
wpwrakaw: (condition) naw, tuxbrain did the checking for you already ;-)03:04
awwpwrak, ha..i misunderstood already. ;-)03:06
wpwrakaw: (bad2) the board already had problems before shipping. so i blame pick and place :) but you're making a good point. the wrapping isn't ideal.03:07
wpwrakdoes anyone know under what license the arduino design files are ?04:47
wpwrakah, found it04:50
kristianpaulwich one?04:50
kristianpaulgn8 !!04:50
wpwrakhttp://www.arduino.cc/en/Guide/Introduction says CC_BY-SA, GPL, LGPL04:51
kristianpaulbut thats wiki?04:52
wpwrakwiki describing the license, etc. :) the actual files are here: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware04:53
wpwrakhmm, how open is the OpenPandora hardware design ? i don't see any links to schematics, layout, design files, ...04:57
kristianpaulseems they make clear distinction between sources and trademark, good04:57
wpwrakkristianpaul: by the way, a few questions about your GPS project:05:21
wpwrakkristianpaul: when it's done, do you think it'll still use an FPGA/CPLD ? or is this still completely open ?05:21
wpwrakkristianpaul: then, do you envision that it will have a case ?05:22
wpwrakwolfspraul: good that you're here ;-) question: how should i describe the origin of the qi-hw project ? "Started by Wolfgang Spraul (ex-Openmoko)" ?06:17
wolfspraulwpwrak: hmm. it was a whole group, Steve, Yi, Xiangfu, Mirko Lindner, me06:20
wolfspraulAdam06:20
wpwrak"started by disgruntled ex-openmokoers" ? :)06:21
wolfspraulbut honestly we were also following gta02-core at the beginning, in tools06:21
wolfsprauloh, actually06:22
wolfspraulLars and Mirko Vogt were also there pretty much from the beginning I think06:23
wolfsprauland they did openwrt for gta02 as well before06:23
wolfspraulit's all inter-twined in different ways06:23
wolfsprauland you also didn't rest for one day, the continuity is through gta02-core06:26
wolfspraulwhich I would have love to support and help with, but it was impossible due to component shortages and just inaccesibility of many pieces06:26
wpwrakso ... "started by disgruntled ex-openmokoers" ?06:31
wpwrakand what would have been the objectives when making the ben ? "get started" ? (even with compromises)06:33
wolfspraulbe careful with the om reference06:33
wolfspraulmany people do not have the best memories06:34
wolfspraulit's like "oh, the guys that already screwed me over with .... (om product)"06:34
wolfspraulso you either have to be very proud of that history, or just silence it :-)06:34
wolfspraul'disgruntled' is also not good06:34
wolfspraulwe were all properly fired06:34
wolfspraulour employer turned to the dark side06:35
wolfspraulI think that's more than fair to say after the record they have accumulated since then06:35
wolfspraulnowadays they explicitly forbit reverse engineering in their tos etc.06:35
wolfspraulso maybe it's the happy ex-om folks :-)06:35
wolfspraulthe ones that stick to what is truly good and don't give up on the first speed bump?06:36
wolfspraul:-)06:36
wpwrak"started by happily ex-openmokoers" ?06:36
wolfspraulyeah, OM turned right to copyright, the happy folks turned left to copyleft06:36
wolfspraulparting ways :-)06:36
wpwrakah, and sales figures: how many ben have you sold so far, counting stock at distributors as sold if they've paid for it ? ~1300 ?06:37
wolfspraulyes, about right06:37
wpwrakso happily ex-openmokoers06:37
wolfspraulit's up to you, you remember the entire history same as me06:37
wolfspraulthat's a matter of judgment06:37
wolfspraulom reference - yes or no? up to you06:38
wolfsprauldisgruntled? no, not me06:38
wolfspraulare you disgruntled?06:38
wpwrakdisgruntled about the way things ended06:38
wolfspraulI didn't join 02-core because I saw the component problems early, but I hope that doesn't make me disgruntled.06:38
wolfspraulwhy? they turned back to their natural habitat06:38
wpwrak;-)06:38
wolfspraulgreedy darwinists, bean counters piling up money06:39
wolfspraulif it makes them happy, why not? :-)06:39
wpwrakso .. ben objective: get started ? have a rallying point ? make a first step ?06:40
wolfspraulyou can say 'keep the true spirit of om < 2010 alive'06:40
wolfspraulbut that's too much om reference imho06:40
wolfspraulben was to apply all that we had learnt at om06:40
wolfspraulthere was a long list somewhere, like 1-10 or so06:41
wolfspraulfor example stay out of RF until the rest works06:41
wpwrakso "do product development right " ?06:41
wolfspraulben is gta02 minus all the stuff that actually doesn't work in gta02 anyway06:42
wolfspraulno?06:42
wolfspraul:-)06:42
wpwrak;-))06:42
wolfspraulseriously06:42
wpwrakwell, the hi-res lcm worked pretty well06:42
wolfspraulmaybe gps works, sort of06:42
wolfspraulnah06:42
wpwrakafter years of flicker-fixing ;-)06:42
wolfspraulthat's what clogged up all the bandwidth, glamo memory bus etc.06:43
wolfspraulit would have been better to operate the unit in 320x240 all the time, but that was also stupid because now that nice lcm was in the box...06:44
wolfspraulso it's like go down A, and you have a set of problems, go down B, and you have another set of problems06:44
wolfspraulwith the Ben the whole thing was so simple that we wouldn't get stuck like this06:44
wolfspraulwhich is true until today06:44
wolfspraulnow we can (and have to) think about the way forward06:44
wolfsprauladd features without breaking our ability to maintain the features, fully exploit them, etc.06:45
wpwrakany cpu upgrade will give us more than enough memory bandwidth to do full vga or wvga or such. (if you can find an lcm :)06:46
wpwrakdo you know if anything about the hw design of openpandora is open ?06:50
wolfspraulnothing06:50
wolfspraulbut that project is so far off-chart by many standards, I do suggest you to not mention it or associate your name with it06:50
wolfspraulthey did everything wrong we did with gta02, and much more :-)06:51
wolfsprauluntil today people who have 'pre-ordere' in late 2008 haven't received their units06:51
wolfspraulof course they paid in 2008...06:52
wolfspraulbut now they introduced the concept of 'premium' orders (ahem), which means that if I order now with fresh money, I get served before the guys who pre-ordered and pre-paid in 2008...06:52
wpwrakokay, all closed. then i don't need to make a slide :)06:52
wpwrakmakes sense06:53
wolfspraulso they keep enough units around for the premium orders, while continuing to not make good on the people who helped them finance everything06:53
wolfspraulthat's not going to go very far, of course :-)06:53
wolfspraulbut for now it works :-)06:53
wolfspraulthat's just the business side06:53
wpwrakthe original buyers are already pissed off or long gone. so you can't gain much ground there :)06:53
wolfspraultechnically, they are fighting with huge number of testing issues, broken this and that, returns, etc. like gta02.06:53
wpwrakthe joy of manufacturing in china without having a clue ;-)06:54
wolfspraultheir hw design is not open, only some pictures of pcbs (and they have said that the hw design is closed and 'theirs', not that anybody would be stupid enough to manufacture it)06:54
wolfspraulno actually it's even better06:54
wolfspraulthey manufacture at a company in Texas that is prety much the only company that can do small volume OMAP projects06:54
wpwrak;-)))06:55
wolfspraulbut there is enough room for them to add incompetence on top to screw up everything06:55
wolfspraulmanufacturing does provide plenty of opportunities for that06:55
wpwrakhave they tried china ?06:55
wolfsprauloh god, no06:55
wolfspraul:-)06:55
wolfspraulsave the Chinese from such customers, please06:55
wpwrakah, then i confused them with some other project06:55
wolfspraulthey did mechanical in China06:56
wolfspraulthe plastic parts06:56
wolfspraulbut anyway, the bottom line for us is, even without the business ethics, that the project has nothing to do with open let alone copyleft hardware06:56
wolfsprauland they successfully screwed over their entire early support base, which will limit their ability to move forward quite a bit06:57
wolfspraulno matter how many 'premium' units they are selling now06:57
wolfspraulthere's thousands of pissed-off early supporters waiting in line :-)06:57
wpwrakhere's a slide with advice for how to run a hw project: http://pastebin.com/uTf860VW06:57
wpwrakwhat wuold you change/add/remove ?06:58
wpwrak(i have more slides with the "donts")06:58
wolfspraulsure, why not. have no diff because I'm not clear about the context.06:59
wolfspraulwhat's before and after06:59
wolfspraulso it reads a bit lofty to me, but that's because I have to guess the context07:00
wpwraklemme upload a draft07:05
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fisl12-draft.pdf07:06
wpwrakstill need some introductory slide before "sourcing pitfalls" that prepares for the negative tone of what follows07:07
wpwrakthe "know unknowns" wuold be mainly manufacturing. well, i can just write "manufacturability"07:09
wpwrakand s/continuation/what follows/07:10
wolfspraulphew, I cannot really keep up with all the tasks flooding me :-)07:10
wolfspraulthe 07-01 news may be delayed...07:10
wpwrakhow many SIE have you made ?07:13
wpwrakand who was behind the SIE - can i say "university suchandsuch and Sharism Ltd." ?07:13
wpwrakthe gerbers of the ben and the rest of the original design files cannot be opened, correct ? (i.e., only the "derived" schematics exist as PDF and in kicad)07:16
wolfspraulhmm07:17
wolfspraulwait, one by one07:17
wolfspraulSIE was 70 board I think, something like that07:18
wolfspraulthe project was really taken on by Tuxbrain07:18
wolfspraulTuxbrain provided financing07:18
wpwrakso it's all three in there: tuxbrain financing, sharim manufacturing, carlos design ?07:19
wolfspraulso it was UNAL National University of Colombia, with Tuxbrain providing financing and logistics07:19
wolfspraulcorrect07:19
wolfsprauleverything is 100% free and open of course, anybody could continue, in any direction07:19
wolfspraulso basically Sharism Ltd. got an order for 70 boards from Tuxbrain, then we shipped according to Tuxbrain's instructions, most to Bogota, some to Spain07:20
wolfspraulsomething like that07:20
wolfspraulyield was not good, I think we only had 55-60 in sellable (100% functioning) condition07:21
wolfspraulafter 1 week of manual fixing :-)07:21
wolfspraulchaos project07:21
wpwrakyeah, exploding batteries ;-)07:21
wolfspraulyep07:21
wolfspraul'never tried'07:21
wolfspraulthat run was done with too little brain, but luckily we survived07:22
wolfspraulI was able to manufacture enough 100% functioning boards in the end, though just barely enough07:22
wolfspraulUNAL + Tuxbrain + Sharism07:22
wolfspraulgerbers of ben, hmm07:23
wolfspraulI think we have pads layout files somewhere07:23
wpwraki think they're now 100% kicad07:23
wolfspraulwhich were created by reverse engineering under a license from the copyright owner :-)07:23
wolfspraulthat's an arrangement :-)07:23
wpwrakah, wrong context :)07:23
wolfspraulbut they should be 100% the same as the Ben, they are07:24
wolfspraulI didn't want to get the files from the manufacturer and release those same files, I wanted to make sure it's our own work07:24
wolfspraulso we licensed the design and then created our own files07:24
wolfspraulbecause honestly I don't 100% trust the origin of any files we would get from the manufacturer, no matter what they say...07:25
wpwrak;-)07:25
wolfspraulplus it allowed us to exercise a clean reversing process, learn a lot about that, eventually move to KiCad - all step by step, so nobody can come with FUD to me now and scare me07:25
wpwrakM1 verilog is GPL ?07:27
wolfspraulI think everything new that Sebastien writes is gpl v307:27
wolfspraulbut m1 verilog has about 25% of sources from Lattice07:27
wolfspraulunder the famous license you already know about07:27
wolfspraulopen source after 3 indirects07:28
wolfspraulthe other 75% are mostly gpl v3 I think, some contributors have asked for their patches to be BSD, if I remember correctly07:28
wpwrakgreat. i just write "GPL" anyway07:29
wpwrakdoes "one-man megacorp" sound like a good characterization of sebastien ?07:30
wolfsprauldon't understand07:31
wpwrakhw design, verilog, operating system, application, marketing material, ... that's a lot of people in one guy :)07:32
wolfspraulyes, the secret is extreme focus07:35
wolfspraulthe downside is that the entire codebase is spread extremely thin07:35
wolfspraulfrom top to bottom07:35
wolfspraulif you venture just one tiny bit out of what Sebastien needed for his stack, the answer will be "not implemented"07:35
wpwrakyeah07:35
wolfspraulwhich is the right way to launch a project, imho07:35
wolfspraulnow others have to fill in the missing thousands of bits, which we have not been that successful at, yet07:36
wpwrakso, "one man megacorp" (provided that he agrees being called that ?)07:36
wolfspraulnah that's confusing07:36
wolfspraulit's highly focused07:36
wpwrak"one man army" ? :)07:36
wolfspraulspread thin across a wide range, make it work fast07:36
wolfspraulthere's a downside to everything07:36
wolfspraulthe downside here is that it's not very flexible (yet)07:36
wpwraksure. i can explain that if someone asks07:36
wolfspraulone man army works better, yes07:37
wolfspraulyou forgot the GUI toolkit07:38
wolfspraulalso new :-) called 'MTK' btw :-)07:38
wpwrakdo you agree with slide 3 ? "what is copyleft hardware"07:38
wolfspraulMilkymist ToolKit07:38
wolfsprauland production testing software, also from him07:39
wpwrakthat must be a biggie for a device with so many features07:40
wolfsprauldon't know, it's just more code07:43
wpwrakdo you know if the publicly available fpga documentation is sufficient for using the chip (with the proprietary tools, of course)07:43
wolfspraulnothing really complex, just going through all peripherals, memory testing, etc.07:43
wolfsprauldon't understand07:44
wolfspraul'fpga documentation'?07:44
wolfspraulthe Spartan-6 has tons of documentation07:44
wolfspraulall for download07:44
wolfsprauldozens of pdfs, thousands of pages07:44
wolfspraulis that what you mean?07:44
wpwrakyes, probably07:46
wpwraksometimes, companies only give you sort of overview documentation. not just a marketing flyer but also not a real data sheet.07:47
wolfspraulno07:47
wolfsprauleverything open07:47
wpwrakhow do you like the "dodging patents" slide ?07:47
wolfspraulI am seriously flooded07:47
wpwrak;-_07:47
wolfspraulmy downlink is slow, and I'm downloading 5 things in parallel now07:47
wpwraks/_/)/07:47
wolfspraulI don't even know why I'm downloading this or that07:47
wolfspraulemail here, chat there07:47
wolfspraulso... I haven't looked at it yet07:48
wpwraki should head towards the airport in 3-4 hours. the more i can finish by then, the better ;-)07:48
wolfspraulhttp://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/spartan-6.htm07:49
wolfspraulyes sure, I know07:50
wolfspraulthat's why I try to answer everything here07:50
wolfspraulone point of copyleft hardware is our ability to pick chips that have 100% open documentation07:50
wolfsprauland we are successful in moving there, definitely07:50
wolfspraulI barely remember what NDA stands for...07:51
wolfspraulI think this is something that some poor folks fighting with proprietary Wi-Fi chips are battling with...07:51
wpwrakdo you think you could broker a deal with ingenic to open 4760_pm ?07:51
wolfspraulprobably not07:52
wolfspraulthey don't understand the issue07:52
wolfspraul"you have it already"07:52
wolfspraulI believe it's leaked anyway (not from me)07:52
wolfspraulit's unfortunate but no, they will not help to clean this up07:52
wpwrakwell, you can say that there ar hundreds of people out where who sometimes contribute, etc.07:52
wolfspraulthey will not help to clean this up07:52
wolfspraulthere are many ways to get these documents already07:53
wpwrakbut how will they answer if you pose that problem ?07:53
wolfsprauland putting them on the company FTP server is blocked by fear of legal action07:53
wolfspraulmeanwhile on the practical side there is no problem, USB stick, copy, done07:53
wpwrakah, are forecast when "mass-market" M1 will start selling ?07:53
wpwraks/are/any/07:53
wolfspraulhmm07:54
wpwrak(ingenic) so they'll make you understand you should do it below the table07:54
wolfspraulthere is a launch07:54
wolfspraulseriously it's a culture issue07:54
wolfspraulthey will not even believe that you are still talking about this if you 'already have' it07:54
wolfspraulthey will not understand what you want07:54
wolfspraulmust be some trick07:54
wolfspraulor maybe you want to play with them make them look stupid?07:54
wolfspraulI can ask for putting on the 'company ftp server'07:55
wolfspraulit's not there now07:55
wolfspraulbut it won't happen out of fear of legal action, real or not07:55
wolfsprauland no, I don't think I can make that fear go away07:55
wpwrakyou could ask if you can put it on your server :)07:55
wolfspraulI can send you the docs though, if you want :-)07:55
wolfspraulthey will not officially answer that. I could risk it, yes.07:55
wolfspraulmost likely nothing would happen07:55
wolfspraulbut that would cast a shadow over our project07:56
wolfspraulbecause nobody would believe that 'chinese arrangement'07:56
wpwrakwhat if you ask in a face to face meeting ?07:56
wolfspraulso that's why I don't want to do that either07:56
wolfspraulyeah sure, smile back07:56
wolfsprauldo whatever you like :-) (that's implied anyway, like I said they have a very hard time understanding what I mean if the doc is already on my usb stick...)07:56
wpwrakoh, strange arrangements happen not only in china ... :)07:56
wolfspraulyes but it casts a shadow on Qi07:56
wolfspraulI don't want Qi to be known as doing 'grey' stuff07:57
wolfspraulwhich may not be true, but some dirt always sticks when thrown at you07:57
wpwrakbut you'd do that anyway. only in one case with ingenic's approval, in the other case without it07:57
wolfspraulwith an approval I could put the email from the CEO right into the same folder or so07:57
wolfspraulok I would do that07:58
wolfspraulCEO_EMAIL.TXT07:58
wolfspraulbut that won't happen07:58
wolfspraulI don't want to take on that greyness07:58
wolfspraulthe documents are available...07:58
wolfspraulin an unfortunate way07:58
wolfspraulbut it's not my mission to clean this up07:58
wolfspraulthen I rather work harder on Milkymist ...07:58
wpwrakerm. i chnaged the last slide to "the future". what's there ? finish M1, ben-wpan sw (firmware, drivers, etc.), "Dreaming of Ya NanoNote", anything else ?07:58
wolfspraulin page 4 you leave out IC design, llhdl/geometrical stuff/synthesis08:00
wpwrak(grey) it would be sufficient if you have a verbal agreement. (as long as ingenic don't change their mind and go against you, which could be a risk, particularly if they get sued and need a scapegoat) i don't think anyone will ask you to show papers ;-)08:00
wolfspraulno they won't08:00
wolfspraulnothing will happen08:00
wolfspraulbut I don't want to do it, it will cast a shadow on Qi08:00
wolfspraulanybody who wants those docs can have them anyway...08:00
wolfspraulwhy should we take on this cleanup?08:00
wolfspraulI don't want to 'spend' my reputation for that08:00
wolfspraulwhy don't you put them on almesberger.net ?08:01
wolfspraul:-)08:01
wolfspraulI don't care08:01
wolfspraulI will mention it again08:01
wolfspraulpms to company ftp server08:01
wpwrak(slide 4) hmm, don't want to deviate from the linear flow of the table. i'll introduce FPGA issues with M108:01
wolfspraulI mention it every time I go there.08:01
wolfspraulthey won't move, fear08:01
wolfspraulthey were on the ftp server accidentally for about 2 weeks08:01
wolfspraulincompetent server admin08:02
wolfspraulmy mail to thank them for that lead to the removal, ha08:02
wolfspraul:-)08:02
wpwrakok. about the future - any more items ? or changes ?08:02
wolfspraulI don't see that slide08:04
wolfspraulurl again?08:04
wolfspraulit says "stay small, poor, out of news" as patent strategy08:05
wolfspraulmaybe you add "stay out of Europe, USA"08:05
wolfspraul80%+ of the world population lives in non patent-infested countries08:05
wpwrakhehe :)08:05
wolfsprauleither without patents, or ineffective enforcement, or parallel systems with political agenda (china)08:06
wpwrak"stay remote"08:06
wolfspraulMTK turned into a multi-billion USD semiconductor that way08:06
wolfspraul'remote' is realtive08:06
wolfspraulmaybe it's the center08:06
wolfspraulfrom my perspective USA and Europe are 'smaller niche markets'08:06
wolfspraulwe can address their special needs later08:06
wolfspraullike some fatty lawyers08:06
wolfspraulno problem08:06
wolfspraulthe consumers in those countries want them fed, so we add that stuff, as required08:07
wolfspraulI'm serious08:07
wolfspraulthere are 7 billion people08:07
wolfspraulyou can market to billions without ever hearing the word 'patent'08:07
wpwrakdoes M1 have audio out ? or just in ?08:07
wolfsprauland patents are actually easy, it's just like a tax08:07
wolfspraullike a corrupt official in China08:08
wolfspraulnot very different08:08
wolfspraulaudio in and out08:08
wolfspraulmany tax audits in China are 'solved' by paying a special 'audit tax' which is in effect a bribe to the people that audit you08:09
wolfspraulnot very different from a patent troll, just different terminology08:09
wolfspraulso if you can make it here, or in many other big '3rd world' markets, the lawyers in Europe and USA are a friendly bunch08:10
wolfspraultheir needs will be met as well...08:10
wpwrakyeah. one issue is that many active community members come from patent countries08:10
wolfspraulunderstood08:10
wolfspraulbut in your list 'stay out of USA and Europe' is missing08:10
wolfspraulMTK turned into a top-20 semiconductor like that08:10
wolfsprauldon't ignore MTK like Nokia tried so hard, so many years08:11
wpwrakupdated http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fisl12-draft.pdf08:11
wolfspraulthey violated every patent and copyright law you could come up with in your dreams08:11
wolfspraulevery day, multiple times08:11
wolfspraulfor 10+ years08:11
wpwrakreshuffling the last few slides. order is not "running a project", "misconceptions", "sourcing", "patents", then "future"08:13
wolfspraulfuture:08:16
wolfspraul1) protect what we've built so far08:16
wolfspraul2) remember that free software is our core, that's where our innovation and performance comes from08:17
wolfspraul3) don't rest on achievements, aggressively push forward on performance, high-tech, without selling out on our free software nda and roots08:18
wolfspraul4) important areas: mobile, wireless, embedded, interfaces to analog (radar, sonar, ultrasound, sensors, etc)08:20
wolfspraulha!08:20
wolfspraulnot nda08:20
wolfspraulDNA08:20
wolfspraul:-)08:20
wolfspraulthe ghosts from the past08:20
wolfspraulso yes, Ya NanoNote, along those lines - protect what we've built on the Ben, add ben-wpan etc.08:21
wolfspraulmaybe also 5) tools08:21
wolfspraulboom, llhdl, layout history, ...08:21
wolfspraul6) be smarter on marketing, sell our story better, what our products can do08:22
wolfspraul7 billion people waiting for great products08:22
wpwrakare there so many already ?08:25
wpwrakwow. they've been breeding a lot08:25
wolfspraulyes, 7 now08:25
wpwrakmy memories are still from the 4 billion era :)08:26
wolfsprauland that's the perspective of many chinese manufacturers08:26
wolfspraulthey look at about 5 billion potential customers08:26
wolfspraul1.3 at home, another 3-4 outside08:26
wolfspraul:-)08:26
wolfspraulthe rest is unreachable or too poor08:28
wolfspraulI like "there is no tomorrow"08:29
wolfspraulshould I download again/08:30
wolfspraul?08:30
wolfspraulany slides you need feedback on?08:30
wpwrakwait a minute .. adding some more stuff08:32
wolfspraulunder "let's make an iphone"08:32
wolfspraulthe points you describe are all static08:32
wolfspraulbut to understand manufacturing the analogy of a running train is better08:32
wolfsprauleverything is moving08:32
wolfsprauleverybody has investments already08:32
wolfspraulso they just try to find the smallest incremental investments to add new features08:33
wolfsprauliphone is a huge train08:33
wolfspraulhigh-speed train08:33
wolfspraulhundreds of partners08:33
wolfspraulwho have made investments over 10+ years08:33
wolfspraulit is completely idiotic, really, to look at for example the iphone4 and say "we want to make that too"08:33
wolfspraulit's like a big Airbus or Boeing aircraft08:34
wolfspraullots of know-how, universities, supply chain, etc. etc.08:34
wolfspraulso you have all these moving pieces, and they are coming together in a coordinated way (apple the coordinator)08:35
wolfsprauland then there's an iphone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ...08:35
wolfspraulwe have to get our own train going08:35
wolfspraulas it will be as good as we can make it, and then we need to sell as well as we can, and reinvest the profits, and move forward08:35
wolfspraulonce we define copyleft hardware clearly we know which parts we can buy/outsource, and which we want to build ourselves out of free components08:36
wolfspraulthat's the characteristics of the train08:36
wolfspraulbut this idea to look at some random product you see at amazon, and then say "we will make this", it will always fail. thinking is way too static.08:37
wpwrak(train) hmm yes. of course, others can kinda jump onto the train quickly. lots of cheap tablets in china08:41
wolfspraulnah08:41
wolfspraulyou know it's not true08:41
wpwrakemphasis on "cheap" :)08:42
wolfspraulit's crap08:42
wolfspraulit does not work08:42
wolfspraulwith someting like an airplane, it's harder to fake, right?08:42
wolfspraulfirst - it's big08:42
wolfspraulsecond - it's easy to see whether it flies or not08:42
wolfspraulbut a little tablet - sure, many will be on the market (ahem)08:43
wolfspraulno, it doesn't work, really08:43
wolfsprauleven if Samsung and others throw serious money at it, and they do have lots of things moving08:43
wolfspraulthe moving aspect is important08:43
wolfspraulin manufacturing you don't have snapshots competing with each other08:43
wolfspraulit's a function of this product's performance and the efficiency at which I can move to the next generation08:43
wpwrakyou. you notice the details quickly:)08:44
wolfspraulbasically if you do this, you will always be late, you will be expensive, and you will never know why :-)08:44
wpwrakah, another future objective bring ME under control08:44
wolfspraulmaybe that fits on your slide08:44
wolfspraul"you will be late, you will be expensive, and you will not know why"08:44
wolfspraulstill too long :-)08:44
wolfspraulraumfahrtagentur is doing great work there08:44
wolfspraulwith limited resources, but it's the right approach08:45
wpwrak(ME) yes, the M1 case is a great success08:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/: some screen shots for the talk (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/924bb9508:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/: added atusb-front.png, in-progress draft of talk (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6806d6508:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: added openness schievements; more small updates (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b5f611308:47
wolfspraulmaybe you should highlight gpl v3 somewhere?08:48
wolfspraulthere's all this fud about v3 being incompatible with hardware08:48
wolfspraulsebastien uses v3 by default08:48
wolfspraulso does xiangfu, anything from sharism. gpl v3 by default, why not. v3 incompatible with hardware is fud.08:49
wpwraknaw, don't want to go into GPLv3 discussions :)08:51
wolfspraulyes but that was not my point08:55
wolfspraulmany people think v3 incompatible with hardware08:55
wolfsprauljust feedback, I agree, it's a detail08:56
wolfspraulyour presentation is already quite head-heavy08:56
wolfspraulhopefully people will follow :-)08:56
wolfspraulneed to add some girls on odd pages08:56
wpwrak;-))09:00
Jay7http://www.markuskayser.com/work/solarsinter/09:01
wolfspraulJay7: nice link, thanks!09:12
wolfspraulenergy efficient production is a whole topic of its own, hopefully we have enough resources (and sales) one day to dive in there as well, I agree that it's very important to invest there and move towards energy efficient production09:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, i think you can remove the "we've been slashdotted" on the qi-hw wiki ;-)09:14
wolfspraulhe09:14
wolfspraulyeah09:14
wolfspraulwhere is it? is the page admin-locked?09:14
wolfspraulgone09:15
wolfspraulthx09:15
wolfspraulsourcing pitfalls: focus on the sources that are actually selling to you: in-stock, lead-time, moq, payment and shipping options09:44
wolfspraulvendor websites are totally irrelevant, more distraction than anything else, unless you buy directly from the vendor09:45
wolfspraulvendor websites are good for datasheets09:46
methril_morning09:47
methril_wolfspraul, unfortunately i'm not going to FISL09:47
wolfspraulwas just curious :-)09:48
wolfspraulis it far from you?09:48
methril_it's really near09:48
methril_but i'm not allowed to go, i'veto work09:48
methril_i didn't get free days09:48
methril_and i've visit at home09:48
methril_:(09:49
wolfspraulmethril_: he, I see :-)10:02
wolfspraulwhat does 'really near' mean?10:02
methril_less than 300 Km10:02
wolfsprauldo we need to be worried about you being locked up in a dungeon? should we send the Jon & Werner liberation army?10:03
methril_hehehe10:03
wolfspraulah ok, at least that would be some trip, I see10:03
methril_i'm not in a dugneon :)10:03
methril_i'm in a special working force ;-)10:04
wpwrakspecial dungeon force :)10:10
dvdkwpwrak: just looked over your slides (the .tex sources in git)10:21
dvdkmaybe want to mention debian as well under software running on nanonote?10:21
wpwrakdvdk: afaik, debian doesn't run very well ?10:24
wolfspraulon the Nano?10:26
wolfspraulI think we have, or had, some experts who ran it happily10:26
dvdkwell, there seem to be users who run it as main-os on the mailinglist10:27
wolfspraulmain thing is memory, I believe our Debian users use swap a lot10:27
dvdkno, of course openwrt/oe is better suited10:27
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: kernel/irq/: EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL functions for dynamic interrupt allocation (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/5cdcaf410:27
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: spi_atben: correct interrupt cleanup order when removing the driver (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/d8bd10a10:27
qi-bot[commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atusb: Add my copyright and cleanup MODULE macros (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/4af7d8010:27
qi-bot[commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atusb: Cleanup header includes (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/a7a8c8e10:27
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: spi_atben: refcount the master (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/d37779410:27
qi-bot[commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atusb: Big update and sync with atben driver. (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/42cd2d610:27
qi-bot[commit] Stefan Schmidt: Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/ben-wpan' into ben-wpan-stefan (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/4bca4d710:27
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/: added product photos (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/d627b2610:27
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/Makefile: added printing (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/3f8abd410:27
wolfspraulalright, I need a break10:30
wolfspraulwpwrak: have a safe trip!10:31
wpwrakthanks ! and thanks for the feedback !10:32
wolfspraulI'm out to dinner now, have to make my way through cheap China first, passing all the Porsche in the parking lot...10:33
wolfspraulI'm the poorest of all here, poor foreigner. I can do cheap manufacturing! help! :-)10:34
kyak"On FedEx vehicle for delivery"10:42
kyakcommon you stupid vehicle10:42
wpwrakkyak: they're waiting for you to leave the house for 5 minutes. then they run there, ring, drop a note, and head off again11:01
DocScrutinizerunrelated: nice modder's upgrade -> N810 as a phone http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=551420#post551420  this guy is awesome, wonder what the endeavour resulted in finally11:04
DocScrutinizerhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=579019#post57901911:05
kyakwpwrak: yeah, i have such a feeling, too11:34
kristianpaulwprak, (FPGA/CPLD) it depends, current development platform is milkymist, so FPGA is a sure, if let said we tought in porting to the Nanonote, at least a CPLD will be needed for some basic logic (shifter) to make acquisition easier, in the poorest man case no hardware aceleration could be needed ie, if you can sample data beyond 2MB/s and cheat using SIMD to hopefully speed up something. As a side note osgps was developed for a Penti12:05
kristianpaulwprak,(case) for sure, but before that a proper antenna tought for that case :D12:05
kristianpaulno fpga/cpld hardware at all*12:07
wpwrakkristianpaul: ok, thanks12:13
kyakah, werner left exactly the moment atben/atusb arrived :)12:20
qi-botThe build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-06272011-1341/12:29
kyakhuh, problems downloading qemu...12:35
kristianpauldvdk: thanks for the help yday with octave, i just discoever this SoftGNSS just process real data, but anway the code can be usefull for someobdy else12:52
kristianpauldvdk: btw you got you qi-hw www-data account already :-) (remenbering just in case)12:53
dvdkkristianpaul: (downloads.qi-hw account) not that i can see.  (tried: ssh, webdav)13:28
dvdkkyak: (build log) ROFL.  13:30
dvdk"MD5 sum of the downloaded file does not match (file: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640, requested: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640) - deleting download."13:30
dvdksince when does it compare spaces, too?13:30
qi-bot[commit] David K├╝hling: qemu-host: need to remove whitespace at the end of PKG_MD5SUM (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/b44ea5013:31
kyakheh13:33
kristianpaulwolfspraul: i think dvdk was asking the other time for an account in qi-hw/www15:23
kristianpaulmay be you missed the backlog :)15:24
wolfsprauloh, sure15:25
wolfspraulI will check the backlog tomorrow and create the account15:25
wolfspraulyou can also create it, of course. very tired now, still a few mails then calling it a day...15:25
kristianpauloh, sure i forgot time difference15:26
kristianpaulmy day just started, shiny sun  and blue sky15:26
wolfspraulnice15:26
wolfspraul:-)15:26
mthMD5 is not very safe these days; are the downloads also checked using a different hash algorithm?15:34
kristianpaulSHA1 + MD515:34
mthok, that should be good enough15:35
kristianpauli used that for signing logs at work15:35
kristianpaulyup15:35
mthI moved to sha256 for openMSX: although it's overkill today I think there will be a time that SHA1 is also considered broken in the not too distant future15:35
mthsince it was already weakened by recent developments15:36
wolfspraulgood point, you mean the hash values generally in md5sums.txt or so?15:38
wolfspraulcan we just put sha256 there? I mean the name would be misleading then, right? maybe we should call it sha256sums.txt ?15:38
mthI don't know exactly, I just saw this: <dvdk> "MD5 sum of the downloaded file does not match (file: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640, requested: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640 ) - deleting download."15:39
mthand I was wondering if MD5 was used in addition to something else or just MD515:39
wolfspraulthose two are the same, no?15:40
mththe space was the problem15:40
DocScrutinizerroh: ping17:20
DocScrutinizerroh: could you ask Gismo about some additional nn(n)GB on my box lagrange? how about availability, price, etc. Possibly also sth "shared" and virtually network attached, doesn't have to live inside that vbox17:23
DocScrutinizerit's just a pity to see stuff getting taken down from a public repository, as it obviously been provided in error. It'd be nice to mirror such stuff17:25
wpwrakaah, online again :)18:05
methril_workwpwrak, are you in Brazil?18:05
wpwrakyup. just arrived18:06
methril_workwellcome to Brazil :)18:07
wpwrakthanks ! :)18:09
kristianpaulhey !18:10
kristianpaulhow was the trip?18:11
wpwrakshort and uneventful. as it shold be:)18:11
kristianpaultalk is today or tomorrow?18:12
methril_workwpwrak, it's cold here isn't it?18:12
kristianpaul(cold) hahaha18:12
wpwrakday after tomorrow. so i still have time to do my slides :)18:12
kristianpaulmoment, really?18:12
wpwrakmethril_work: yeah. didn't notice much of an improvement compared to buenos aires18:13
methril_workkristianpaul, the south of Brazil has weather like Argentina (Buenos Aires)18:14
wpwrakmethril_work: the visitors from far away must be disappointed. no sunny beaches with half-naked girls :)18:14
kristianpaullo18:14
kristianpaull18:14
methril_worklol18:15
methril_workwpwrak, no Copocabana, neither Ipanema lol18:15
kristianpaulwpwrak: are you going to meet finally with lxo (Alexandre Olive from FSFLA)18:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: ah, dunno18:19
kristianpaulyou can ping him at #fsfla in any case18:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: if he's here, maybe :)18:19
kristianpaulyeah.. maybe..18:20
wpwraknow, back to my slides ...18:23
kyakwpwrak: just for info: i got my atben/atusb today, and prepared all tools (ben-wpan/tools and lowpan) both for PC and Ben. My PC has ieee802154 stuff built as modules, so now i'm building the ben-wpan kernel for Ben18:38
kyaktoday is already too late, i'll start the engine tomorrow :)18:39
kyakwpwrak: btw, ben-wpan kernel won't boot without these patch:18:44
kyakhttp://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/tree/master/target/linux/xburst/patches-2.6.37/999-board-qi_lb60.patch18:44
kyakit is for 512 Mb rootfs18:44
kyakzgrep CONFIG_MAC802154 /proc/config.gz shows nothing18:57
kyakperhaps, i will have to rebuild the PC kernel, too?18:57
kyakanyway, time to sleep..18:57
rohDocScrutinizer: please write a mail.. he is out19:53
DocScrutinizerroh: k, thanx19:53
kristianpaulroh: are you aware of some project trying to bring freedom (in software at least) to network switches and other related appliances19:58
kristianpaullike replacing/improving the default microkernel etc..19:59
kristianpaulhappen, that a friend askme recomendation about buying a network-switch, so i prefer said buy a Nway hub or something and implement the rest (VLAN, ACLs.., ) in the endpoints20:01
rohkristianpaul: nope.. not yet.21:31
rohkristianpaul: well.. besides using openwrt based routers as 'managed switches'21:31
rohlinux needs 'too much ressources' for low end devices and higher end hardware which would have the ressources is usually shipping with something based on the switch vendors sdk, which use qnx or such21:34
qi-bot[commit] root: fisl2011/: more updates; merged BOM into misc slide; added workflow (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/354ac9221:57
wpwrakhmm :)21:58
wpwrakrejon: heya ! welcome back on solid ground !21:58
wpwrakrejon: how was the trip ?21:58
rejongood22:02
rejonpretty fast22:02
wpwrakyeah, us to .br is nothing :)22:05
wpwrakrejon: have dinner plans already started to take shape ?22:07
xMffhm, anybody digged through uclibcs locale handling already?22:08
xMffshould probably ask in #uclibc but maybe someone here recently played with it22:08
rejonwpwrak, i go zen22:09
rejonwithout all the whack ideology22:09
wpwrakkyak: have you used the .config from ben-wpan/install/ ?22:09
wpwrakkyak: (rootfs) hmm, that's the "new" one ? odd. i thought i already had switched. but maybe not22:10
wpwrakrejon: (zen) i go "two gin tonic", wash the in-flight meal down with plenty of wine, then "two brandys". and zzz for the rest of the flight :)22:12
wpwrakrejon: that is, for those ~40 h trips to/from openmoko it was two such rounds22:13
wpwrakgrmbl. i'm in gentoo update hell. it all started with includegraphics refusing to load a ,jpg . then i tried to update this old machine. latest status: i don't even have xpdf anymore :-(22:18
kristianpaulwpwrak: i bet in FISL u can easilly get a compact disk of another distro :)22:49
qi-bot[commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atben: Start to rewrite the USB part to be async. (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/85532c822:59
TesseractOrdered a Ben Nanonote the other day, then realised I needed Linux. I'm thinking of loading Debian onto my main computer.23:28
xMffyou can use a vm as well23:29
xMffvirtualbox / vmware player etc. allow you to pass-through usb devices to the linux guest vm23:29
TesseractBah, I needed to reload windows on this machine anyway. any objections to debian for a guy with very minor prior linux experience?23:31
xMffno, I guess not23:32
xMffall linux distros nowadays will get you to a desktop environment and a web browser23:33
xMffthe rest is google :)23:33
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/: more cleanup (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a94acb523:34
wpwrakand now off to dinner :)23:34
--- Wed Jun 29 201100:00

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