#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-06-19

Action: DocScrutinizer checks if wpwrak maybe isn't completely awake from last nap :-P00:44
rejonwpwrak, looks good02:35
rejonheya, can you bring some ATBEN / ATUSB02:35
wpwrakrejon: i hope so :)02:37
wpwrakdepends on tuxbrain-in-absentia :)02:38
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, did the massive press pickup have any ripple effects at sharism so far ?02:39
wpwrakrejon: they're giving you the siesta slot ! :) (for the 2nd talk)02:42
wolfspraulwpwrak: interestingly, not at all02:44
wolfspraulI've had 1 order so far02:44
wolfspraulit's probably because the links point in all directions, some of the more prominent ones to tuxbrain02:48
wolfspraulit's amazing how quick people give up - you need to hold something right in front of their mouths to sell :-)02:49
wolfspraulalso I don't see many new suscribers on the discussion or the announce list, or new people here. oh well...02:49
wolfspraulI am very curious how many atben/atusb tuxbrain is selling :-)02:54
wolfspraulbut he's MIA02:54
freakazoid0223wpwrak, I ordered one (nanonote)02:58
rejonfreakazoid0223, that's great!03:03
rejonwolfspraul, sure, having one solid URL is best, but this is the scatter at the moment03:04
rejonbetter if can have one entry and buy buttons on it03:04
wolfsprauloh sure, all fine03:04
wolfspraulthe coverage is excellent03:05
wolfspraulI haven't read comments carefully, but looks mostly negative to me03:05
wolfspraulI see two ways out of this - one is that with our tech, we just engadge in actual use cases that are interesting.03:06
wolfspraulthe other one is that we put the focus on the software we run, rather than the hw specs03:06
wolfspraulbut I think the moment anyone compares hw specs with the latest Android stuff, we are screwed, no matter what we do. So I'll stay away from going there.03:07
wolfspraulit doesn't matter whether ben-wpan is 250kbps, 2mbit/s, even 20mbit/s. THey would just say "LTE Advanced has a peak of 1gbit/sec, bla bla" :-)03:08
wolfspraulso have to just talk about apps and use cases instead03:09
wolfspraulI think ben-wpan is awesome, especially how it was created, with free tools, PCB antenna, home PCB process, etc.03:10
wolfsprauland even at 250kbs, there are plenty of fantastic apps that can be driven over it, obviously as of today we haven't maxed that out by far, because there is no single useful app yet03:10
wolfspraulthe entire creation process was documented on the mailing list too, with plenty of pictures, discussions, free tools, etc.03:11
wolfspraulnot to forget03:11
wolfspraulclears out a lot of FUD and builds a base for future endeavors03:11
wolfspraulrejon: we probably agree on this. The main sucess gauge for ben-wpan coverage is not how many more bens we sell, but how many people start using the atusb on their notebooks, and start developing the Linux stack, eventually into kernel.org03:14
rejonesp. at this point03:14
wolfspraulthere's a huge workload there and that's what would unlock apps later - we need it in the Linux kernel of every notebook as badly as on the Ben...03:14
rejonyes, that is why i hoped to get more documentation down about ben wpan03:15
rejonand what needs to be done03:15
wolfspraulthat's why I say I am more interested to understand how many boards tuxbrain is selling now, versus me selling more Bens03:15
rejonone big thing that has to happen on dev side is to project the goals and break down the tasks so people of varying levels of skill can get involved03:15
wolfspraulespecially I hope (and try to help him) that he sells a lot of atusb, and kernel hackers start to support it from the notebook side03:15
rejonthis is helpful for paid ppl03:15
rejonthat's why its good lekernel is using a tracker for all the tasks 03:16
wolfspraulI should write a grand 'call for action' on the announce list. Linux kernel hackers sought to join Wi-Fi replacement project.03:16
rejonthat is great03:16
rejonwhat is the % of kernel hackers that are employeed now03:17
rejonits really high like 85%03:17
wolfsprauloh huge, 90% or so03:17
wolfspraulthat has some bad consequences too, imo, some people are really becoming fat and lazy and just 9-5 wait-for-paycheck types03:18
wolfspraulbut it's ok, it's mature...03:18
wolfspraulyou can always fork, drive something crazy outside a little, then try to get it back in03:18
wolfspraulfrom reading between the lines what Werner and others say, the state of ZigBee for example, and probably also 802.15.4, in the kernel is really bad03:19
wolfspraulthe paid guys are all on server/backend tasks, and the client/mobile crowd doesn't give a damn about kernel.org and loves implementing their stuff in little proprietary extensions, closed user-mode drivers, etc.03:20
wolfspraulthat is my understanding at least03:20
wolfspraulso when I plug my atusb into my notebook, I expect: nothing03:20
rejoni emailed some kernel devs to try to get them on board03:25
DocScrutinizeryou found kernel devs to mail :-)03:28
rejonfat canonical employees ;)03:29
DocScrutinizerhard to find a species they are03:29
DocScrutinizermost claim to know about kernel, but even I can tell they don't have that much of a clue ;-)03:29
DocScrutinizerthose who really are in business with kernel development are rarely short of tasks03:30
DocScrutinizerI faced a similar problem when it was about a proper fixed hostmode USB kernel driver03:31
DocScrutinizeragain a lot of "kernel hackers" gave up on that messed up USB driver code. And I'd expect situations for wireless stack to be almost identical03:34
DocScrutinizeryou probably don't need a kernel hacker short of taks to tackle, you rather need a wifi-stack hacker savvy to implement a proper kernel/mainstream compliant 802.15 stack03:36
DocScrutinizerjust my uneducated 2 cents03:36
Action: DocScrutinizer ponders about a simple MAC interface for wpan, that does nothing a simple NIC wouldn't do in hardware as well - basically filter inbound stuff for correct MAC and tag outbound stuff with own MAC (is the latter done by a NIC at all?)03:44
DocScrutinizerwpan as the wireless 10Bt thin ethernet cable03:44
DocScrutinizercan't be too hard03:45
DocScrutinizerof course you're running into "OHMY what's with ENCRYPTION" in no time :-)03:50
DocScrutinizerI never looked into 802.15 RFCs neither into the TX datasheets or atmel driver code of atusb03:52
DocScrutinizeris there any mandatory protocol defined in 802.15? Some that isn't already handled by the transceiver chip?03:53
DocScrutinizergiven the usable range not being farther than I can spit, I think any over-sophisticated protocol is maybe mere overkill03:55
DocScrutinizerfor a first approach at least03:56
Action: DocScrutinizer has vivions of a 802.15->CIR adapter, to place directly next to the IR-detector of appliances03:58
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: how about revamping atusb to act as a standalone wpan->CIR that only needs some 5V supply03:59
DocScrutinizernext step: a smal PCB to retrofit in place of (or parallel to) the IR_LED of remotes04:00
DocScrutinizerso you can use not only Ben but also your remote you are used to, to control that friggin TV despite there's that wooden table that doesn't let IR from remote directly to the TV a bit lower04:03
DocScrutinizerthe you also can use remote to control Ben \o/04:03
DocScrutinizerhmm, starting at RFC4944...04:06
DocScrutinizerprobably hard to get sth about IEEE 802.15.404:07
DocScrutinizeras usual04:07
DocScrutinizermhm, 802.15.4 defines PHY and MAC layer04:08
DocScrutinizerI gather atusb is using 2.4GHz ISM band, class B ?04:12
DocScrutinizerI.E. free of all licencing, but has to live with microwave oven on same frequency04:13
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: yes, I think so. 2.4ghz04:14
DocScrutinizerjust learning in Germany the 9-10kHz(SIC!) band is a ISM band - darn, never knew my walkman had a general cert for SRD ;-P04:15
DocScrutinizereven worse, depending on the music it transmits on bands not allowable, like 18kHz04:16
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: (wiki) >>Charakteristisch für die Knoten eines IEEE-802.15.4-Netzes sind die langen Ruhephasen, wodurch ein Knoten die meiste Zeit in einem energiesparenden Betriebszustand verweilen kann. Sobald er Daten senden oder empfangen möchte, kann er in lediglich 15 ms aufwachen, anschließend die Kommunikation abwickeln und sich wieder schlafen legen. Dadurch können batteriebetriebene Netzknoten typische Laufzeiten von sechs 04:20
DocScrutinizerMonaten bis zu zwei Jahren erreichen.<<  you probably want to emphasize this aspect more in your crusade for wpan :-)04:20
Action: DocScrutinizer wonders if hise momematic home automation components are using wpan04:21
Action: DocScrutinizer wonders if his homematic home automation components are using wpan04:21
DocScrutinizerthe door lock for example works from battery for ~1 year or longer04:22
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: yes I think that's one of the things learnt from Bluetooth, which takes several seconds to wakeup (maybe a little less now, but still far more than 802.15.4)04:23
wolfspraulbut before hyping things too much, there's a lot of work in the stack to do first, imho04:24
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: what's atusb's best case power consumption? or maybe better what's that of atben?04:25
DocScrutinizerare we already there with months of standby operation from 2 button cells?04:25
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: reading about 802.15.4 and what the standard defines, I see why implementations for Full Function Devices in linux still suck.04:29
DocScrutinizeresp tree topology has a bunch of duties for FFD-coordinators that are non-trivial nd way beyond what you need for a point2point data transfer04:31
DocScrutinizer(cluster tree)04:32
DocScrutinizerwow, 802.15.4 defines encryption as mandatory optional function that's handled by the mac layer aka the wpan chip05:11
DocScrutinizerCCM and AES05:11
DocScrutinizerkey management is up to the higher protocol layers of course05:12
DocScrutinizermhm, now I think I know what's 6lowpan and what's 802.15.405:15
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (power consumption) difficult to tell. neiher atusb nor atben are designed for low duty cycles. (= turn off everything until you know it's time to listen.) in theory, they could go quite low, but the rest of the system will be comparably power-hungry anyway.05:16
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: aiui for now atben does no 6lowpan at all? just 802.15.4?05:16
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: correct05:17
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: (power) I'm thinking about my 802.15.4->CIR adapter and the 5V PSU you maybe can omit05:17
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: there's a whole lot of nice applications for that hw that's <<6lowpan complexity05:18
DocScrutinizerthinking home automation for example05:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: (stack in bad shape) yes. something interesting happened 2-3 days ago, though: the original leader of the linux-zigbee project woke up. seems that he's been able to get the go ahead for some work. so things may improve.05:19
DocScrutinizerI could see a market for a whole range of nice DIY sensors and actors bat-powered and based on 802.15.405:20
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: not sure 6lowpan complexity is so bad. the coordinator is a bit of a pain, but the rest is comparably simple.05:20
DocScrutinizerwell, the whole coordinator thing is still mainly 802.145.4, no?05:21
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (comparably simple) in the sense that, once it's implemented, you don't care. of course, you have to implement it once or a few times first :)05:21
DocScrutinizeraiui ther coordinator should partially be integrated into the hw. Not clear about that yet05:22
wpwraknaw, coordinator can be in sw05:23
DocScrutinizersending and sensing baecons...05:23
wpwrakthere are a number of low-level functions, like acks and retransmissions that should be in hw or close to it, though05:23
DocScrutinizersending ACKs clearly is hw domain05:23
wpwrak(beacons) a classical RT task ;-)05:23
DocScrutinizerspec says so05:23
wpwrak(beacons) besides, you don't even need them05:24
DocScrutinizersiperframes also sounds like RT, like hw05:24
DocScrutinizerfor slotted you need them05:24
DocScrutinizerbut yeah, who wants slotted05:25
wpwrakcorrect. but do you really need slotted ? :)05:25
DocScrutinizeraiui slotted is the mezhod of choice to power down the "clients"05:25
DocScrutinizerno idea how much power the RX eats for always-on05:26
DocScrutinizerotoh saving power at one end at the expense of sending(!) beacons at the other end seems like a tradeoff not always desirable05:27
wpwrakslotted is mainly about QoS. if you really want to be low-power, you'll have a much lower duty cycle05:27
Action: DocScrutinizer wonders how those homematic devices tackle the problem05:27
DocScrutinizerI guess they just send like mad, until some ack comes in05:28
DocScrutinizerand have a duty cycle of sth like 100/1 for standby05:28
wpwrakor much much lower05:29
DocScrutinizercould that atusb controller+transceiver couple do such a thing?05:29
wpwrakor could go low duty cycle. but then it'05:30
wpwraks usb, which isn;t the most power-saving technology05:31
Action: DocScrutinizer envisions an atusb with 2 or 3 button cells mod, plus 2 wires running to arbitrary sensors/actors05:31
DocScrutinizernah, I'm thinking standalone05:31
wpwrakalso, you can't shut down the transceiver without also shutting down the MCU, and usb with it05:31
DocScrutinizerusing USB just for config05:31
wpwrakyou'll get a baseline consumption of about 20 mW05:32
DocScrutinizertake a atusb, add some batery and e.g. a IR-LED05:32
DocScrutinizerthat's definitely way too much05:32
DocScrutinizercan't the atmel suspend for seconds or hours?05:33
DocScrutinizercan't the transceiver power down at all?05:33
wpwrakif you drop usb, then you could go lower. e.g., atusb can use an internal oscillator for the mcu, which would decouple it from the transceiver. but you lose usb that way.05:33
wpwraki haven't experimented with that, though. get one and try ;-)05:34
DocScrutinizerI'm ok with losing USB most of the time05:34
DocScrutinizeryeah, considering that. But honestly... too expensive for my wallet atm05:34
wpwrakif you think it's expensive, you may want to consider that each board is de facto subsidized with something like USD 100-200 from me ;-)05:35
DocScrutinizerdarn, Ben as the logger in a network of wireless sensors, I have quite some requests for such things05:36
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: it's too expensive for my purse, not for my mind05:36
wpwraka ben would make a very nice controller for things, indeed. kind of a super-arduino :)05:37
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: now add to that controller a complete set of (basically 2 different, or even just one) universal sensor/actor wireless dongles, operating from battery. Now if Ben had USB hostmode to configure them directly at location without additional gear...05:41
DocScrutinizerwell, you probably get away with configuring the whole set at hoem with your PC05:42
DocScrutinizerthen have the right firmware in the dongles to e.g read out temperature or humidity sensors... I could've sold that to an architect like 1 year ago, to monitor old houses' roofs05:44
DocScrutinizeruse reed contact instead NTC and you get nice home automation detectors for open windows/doors/whatnot05:44
DocScrutinizercontrol lights etc with the actor dongle05:45
DocScrutinizerBen for central controler displaying status and UI05:45
DocScrutinizerall basing on just one PCB basically05:46
wpwraksure. domotics are one of the areas 802.15.4 seems quite suitable for.05:46
DocScrutinizerwe could sell Bens to people who don't even know what's a CPU ;-)05:47
wpwrakben+atben is a bit of a hack, though. you'd want a more integrated solution.05:47
DocScrutinizeryeah, hoping for next-gen-Ben, with atben integrated, with hostmode USB...05:47
DocScrutinizermaybe we find even Logitech is using 802.15.4 for their proprietary wireless crap, and you can interface mice and kbds to NN directly ;-)05:48
Action: DocScrutinizer glares at the sealed Logitech dongle05:49
wpwrak802.15.4 would certainly fit in that area, yes05:49
DocScrutinizerbut it happens I have a disassembled MX revolution here ;-)05:50
DocScrutinizerseems TX chip is on the bottom side of PCB, need to desolder it to get there05:55
DocScrutinizerwe should ask wolfgang if next nano could get a housing that can get ruggedized by user. Like adding some plastic foil on top of kbd, sealing the case with silicon, dunno what05:59
DocScrutinizerI guess there's quite a bit that can be done by merely keeping such things in mind06:00
DocScrutinizermaybe even ship matchin rubber plugs for the holes of receptacles, etc06:00
DocScrutinizerIP65 or even IP67 for sure is a nice point on the list of selling arguments06:03
DocScrutinizereven a "can reach IP55 when user does the needed mods" is better than nothing06:04
DocScrutinizerooh, and add some mounting holes, to mount the whole thing to switchboards etc06:11
DocScrutinizerso far this is my favourite for such tasks: http://cgi.ebay.de/Nokia-N810-PDA-Web-Pad-/290578946579?pt=PDAs&hash=item43a7dada1306:25
DocScrutinizeryou can't possibly get more for the money06:26
DocScrutinizereven considering it for a replacement for my lightswitches ;-)06:27
DocScrutinizerfor sure a nice doorbell/intercom, incl cam and msgboard for the postman06:28
dvdkwolfspraul: gave the servers an upgrade since the last slashdotting?  didn't see much additional lag since yesterday :)09:17
wolfspraulWerner helped tweak some good values too09:24
wolfspraulplus some links may have pointed to Werner's static content on downloads09:24
dvdkbtw the google trends shows nanonote-related traffic increasing recently (latest slashdot not yet included i guess).09:28
dvdkso even if most commenters laugh at us, it might have been worth getting out the message09:28
lekernelfortunately (for me at least), it seems they have a lot less grip on things to laugh at about milkymist :-)09:40
lekernelthere were some harsh comments on the slashdot article as well, but nothing that could not be easily answered to09:42
dvdklekernel: lucky for you :)09:42
dvdklekernel: wait for the second story on milkymist :)09:42
lekernelright now I'm waiting for the run3 devices to be produced, it doesn't make sense to advertise something we'll have difficulty shipping09:44
lekernelI have a 6-page article planned for publication in Elektor in 10 days, though.09:45
lekernelwill be in kiosks all summer09:47
wpwraklekernel: first they laugh about you, ... ;-)09:52
lekerneloh, in fact it's already out http://www.elektor.fr/magazines/2011/juillet-047-aout/milkymist-soc.1854586.lynkx09:53
lekernelwpwrak, mh? didn't spot any personal attacks in the comments09:53
wpwraki'm not too worried about the comments. there are basically three groups: 1) the usual nay-sayers, 2) valid criticism (although not always expressed nicely), and 3) approval.09:54
wpwrakthere isn't much you can do about 1). so the masses won't camp outside of tuxbrain's shop before launch day. fine. we can live with that for a while. we always knew that this was a compromise, so 2) have a point. again, little we can do except provide a few clarifications.09:55
wpwrakof course, 3) are the most likely to actually be useful for us, e.g., by buying something or even by contributing09:56
wpwraklekernel: (personal attacks) well, you or your product :)09:57
wolfspraulcultural graveyard09:58
wolfspraulthat's what we are dealing with in many cases09:58
wolfspraulneed to step out entirely, be positive, point to a good future09:59
wpwraklekernel: july/august. hah, in the one issue with 100 circuits ? didn't remember they even has space for regular articles there :) but very good. a real article is so much better than just a brief newsticker notice.09:59
lekernelwpwrak, yeah, it used to be a big small circuit dump. but they changed this.09:59
wolfspraulrejon: thanks jon :-) for the cultural graveyard, totally accurate imo09:59
dvdkkyak: the Ctrl+N key problem in ASE seems to be caused by my allegro keyboard driver "fixes"10:01
dvdkwhat's a "cultural graveyard"?  sounds like a description of the US society as a whole.10:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah, people see it and realize there's someone (individual or group) who can do more than they can. they basically have four choices: a) decide it's not relevant to them and ignore it. that's for the confident type. b) try to benefit from it. that's for the efficient type. c) try to get even by learning from it. that's for the competitive and smart type. d) try to get even by tearing it down. that's for the competitive and10:02
wpwrak stupid type. the more stupid you are, the more often you have a chance to feel you'r in a competition and you're losing. it all makes sense :-)10:02
wolfspraulhas anybody heard of this Music Hack Day http://bcn.musichackday.org/2011/10:03
wpwraklekernel: i kinda liked the small circuit dump. weeks of gold mining ;-) back then, i didn't really understand all those things, so very little came out of reading elektor for some years. but maybe it helped to shape some neural pathways :)10:03
lekernelwhat's that "cultural graveyard" theory?10:04
wolfspraulwe just missed the one in Barcelona (for milkymist), but if it's good i'm sure there will be another one...10:04
lekernelwolfspraul, I have, remotely10:04
wolfspraullekernel: slashdot = cultural graveyard10:04
wolfspraulsomehow the positive vibes are gone there, I just cannot feel it anymore10:05
wolfspraulit's just endless bickering, bitterness10:05
lekernelmh, yeah, I had the same impression reading the nanonote (and to a lesser extent milkymist) comments10:06
wolfspraulif you shutdown the domain, someone would turn on the lights in that lost cinema with the movie on infinite loop, people would have to step out into daylight and rediscover their lives...10:06
lekernelstill it generated a lot of traffic, reposts, and some sales10:06
wolfspraulsure, I don't know a better alternative now10:07
kyakdvdk: btw, i'm using the latest liballegro10:07
wolfspraulhow does this lxer.com function? never heard about it before...10:07
lekernelthere might be ycombinator10:07
wolfspraulthat's a very strange thing10:08
lekernelthey brought us scribd, but apart from that I have nothing against them (yet)10:08
wolfspraulwhen I have something on ycombinator, I get _TONS_ of traffic, but _ZERO_ really _ZERO_ sales, subscriptions, emails, anything human10:08
wolfspraulit looks like a botnet :-)10:08
lekernelmaybe it is? to give the impression they are bigger than one might think? :-)10:09
dvdkkyak: yeah that's the problem :)10:09
dvdkycombinator is like slashdot done right.  10:09
dvdkcomment quality is much, much higher10:10
wolfsprauldvdk: yes, but amazingly, the traffic/human ratio is fishy. They are doing some strange stuff I think, technically.10:10
wolfspraulmaybe necessary to stand out in the junk farming nowadays, don't know.10:10
wolfspraulah sorry "content farming"10:10
dvdklook at topics like P=NP proof, where almost every comment on /. repeated misconceptions and basic problems at comprehending P=NP, while ycombinator had a very in-depth discussion10:11
wolfspraulcomprehening :-) that feeds into Jon's cultural graveyard theory...10:11
wolfspraulnah but anyway, every individual that shows up and is interested in anything is welcome, right?10:11
wolfspraulwherever they come from, even if a lot of their friends are a little bit on the ranting side :-)10:12
lekernelreminds me of http://thefastertimes.com/news/2011/06/16/aol-hell-an-aol-content-slave-speaks-out/ I read yesterday10:12
dvdki don't say that slashdot is a lost case; people like us are reading it.  we may not be the majority, but still more "good" audience on /. than all other sites combined10:12
wolfspraulsure it's great to be covered there, but for the future hopefully something better emerges10:12
wolfspraulsomething friendlier, more thoughtful, more positive10:13
dvdkwhere again is the website campaigning for stopping to read slashdot?  can't find it.  was a fun read + many links to better news sites10:13
wolfspraulmore fun too maybe10:13
lekernellol, there's a campaign against slashdot ?!10:13
dvdklekernel: should that surprise us? :)10:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, here's my abstract for the upcoming presentation at FISL: http://pastebin.com/dTbAzDmn10:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: and there's my bio with an implied (short) mission statement of qi-hw at the end: http://pastebin.com/mbbudceg10:16
wolfspraul"I want to be your friend, I want to guard your dreams and visions", that's what I'm missing at /.10:17
wpwrakwolfspraul: who needs friends and visions if you can have beer and wrestling ? ;-)10:18
wolfspraulI'm just becoming sensitive to these things living in China.10:20
wolfspraulI don't need more crap flying at me when I read /.10:20
wolfspraulok, elektor article is cool10:21
wolfspraulnow, fisl abstract10:21
lekernelmaybe they're going to translate it10:21
lekernelwill ask a bit later10:21
lekernelwhat's fisl?10:22
lekernelspeaking of conferences i'll be at okcon next week http://okcon.org/2011/programme/open-source-hardware-and-milkymist10:22
wpwraklekernel: free sw conference in brazil, june 29-july 210:22
lekerneland chaos camp10:22
lekernelmaybe even hacknight.se, though i'd go there mostly for fun and not milkymist promotion... but who knows10:23
wolfspraulwpwrak: nice. "review the objectives and constraints", I think 'the' can be removed to "review objectives and constraints"10:23
wolfspraulbut not 100% sure, need to ask a native speaker10:24
lekernelwho's going to brazil?10:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeha, that sounds even a little better. well, i've already sent it :)10:24
wolfspraullekernel: I have 2 questions about the tv-out cable. one is, if we do get one, should we have that ddc short/loop? is that what you prefer? the other one - will the tv-out and s-video work in parallel? can you connect 2 targets then?10:25
wpwraklekernel: rejon, me. methril, you'll be there too, right ? (of course, technically not "going to" brazil :)10:25
lekernelwolfspraul, the s-video and cvbs can work in parallel yes10:26
lekernelbut I have no s-video cable to test it atm... will get one someday10:26
lekernelddc loop is nice to have10:26
wolfspraulhuh? the one from xiangfu has both rca and s-video, no?10:27
lekernelyes, but I need another cable to go from the s-video plug on the cable to the s-video plug on my TV10:27
wolfspraulah got it10:27
lekernelthough I might just as well stuff the plugs with bits of wire10:27
lekernelanyway, all this isn't a priority. the video signal generator in milkymist and its software drivers would need a major overhaul to support cvbs and s-video10:29
lekernelI will implement this at the same time as I implement HD rendering10:29
lekerneland maybe HDMI, since I'll have my mind deep into verilog and video signals10:30
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: liballegro: change the keybord driver fix to tread RCONTROL as before (as CTRL) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/026792a10:30
lekernelso, not anytime soon10:30
lekerneli'll get that product with vga output only done right in the first time10:31
wolfsprauldefinitely, all fine10:31
dvdkkyak: change liballegro keyboard driver once again.  can test whether it is better now?10:31
wolfspraulI just need my eyes on that cable in case you suddenly tell me "include one" :-)10:31
wolfspraulthen I realized recently with supporting 2 targets, we might have an easy way to record performances10:32
dvdkkyak: the ellipse tool stuff: looks like we need to filter F1-F3 out of the message queue also10:32
wolfspraulI need to look into vga grabbers...10:33
lekernelyeah, though CVBS and S-Video will always have a reduced quality compared to VGA10:33
wolfspraulyes but right now we basically have no way at all to record performances10:33
lekernelsure, that's already better than filming the screen :)10:33
wolfspraulyes but you are telling me to not expect this to work anytime soon, so I'll look into vga grabbers...10:34
lekernelI can have access to a VGA grabber and small video studio, I'm just waiting for the box to arrive so I can shoot a nice unboxing video10:34
lekernelhopefully the web update will also be done at that time, so I can also demonstrate update and patch pool10:37
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: ase: another keymouse fix: keep F1-F3 mouse-buttons from causing key events. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/cd0c7ce10:37
dvdkkyak: ok, the toolbox problem is fixed as well (latest ASE)10:37
CapnKernel1You're being talked about: http://groups.google.com/group/hackerspacesg/msg/ae160842686e8af711:18
kyakdvdk: rebuilding it now11:19
dvdkkyak: still crashing on save. it gets sigabort don't know where this comes from (currently debbugging with gdb)11:23
kyakdvdk: elipse and ctlr issues seem to be solved, thanks :)11:31
dvdkkyak: doesn't really help if you cannot save your creations :)11:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: BOOKSHELF: added RFC4944 (6LoWPAN) as "rfc4944" and "6lowpan" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/296647011:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/dirtpan/dirtpan.c: cleaned up embarrassing explanation of control byte http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e77658f11:43
kyakdvdk: yeah, that's major :)11:46
kyakdvdk: what is /usr/bin/skater installed by liballegro-demo? I can't start it, it says "Error: Unable to find a suitable graphics driver"11:49
kyak/usr/bin/shooter starts fine, however11:49
dvdkyeah: skater needs 640x48011:49
kyakhm, okay11:50
dvdkneed to hack it to rescale :)11:50
kyakoh, btw11:50
kyakhere's what i found: http://victornils.net/tetris/11:51
kyakanother text-mode tetris, that can be built with allegro11:51
kyaki think i'll try porting that11:51
Jay7kyak: check netris :)11:53
Jay7it allows to play over network11:53
Jay7nice to play on multiple bens over atben's :)11:54
kyakheh, good idea :)11:54
Jay7may be killer app, hehe :)11:54
kyakwe already have at least two tetrises: the one from bsd-games and another is gottet (qt-based). None of them have network support, though :)11:55
kyakah, this oen supports 2P game using unix domain sockets11:58
kyaki guess it is almost equal to networking support11:58
kyakthe developer says "But 1.0 should have music and sound. Original music, not the Russian tune."11:59
kyakso he really thinks that the "original" music is the one from NES?11:59
Jay7kyak: I meant netris.org btw12:06
wpwrakJay7: wow. ftp. i thought grave robbery as a hobby had died with schliemann :)12:09
Jay7wpwrak: yeah.. ftp is like zombie12:09
Jay7sometimes it happens..12:09
Jay7I'll setup ftp-server soon for one russian business app..12:10
Jay7because they are using ftp for database uploading12:10
Jay7seems they are lost in 90'th..12:11
wpwrakwow. ftp as a database interface. all of a sudden, grocery lists in git don't sound strange anymore.12:12
Jay7wpwrak: it's wonderful world of enterprise application..12:18
dvdkkyak: there's also openinvaders12:32
dvdkcould be a stack overflow.  is it possible to increase available stack size on nn?12:48
dvdkaarrggh, maybe that's a pthread thread, these have lower amounts of stack space than the main process?12:49
dvdkinfo thre12:49
dvdk(oops, thought i was in gdb command window)12:49
dvdkno stack size is not the problem...12:52
kyakhm, seems that vitetris can only use X11 extension of allegro (tries to include xalleg.h, which is not available)12:57
kyakif ncurses UI won't fit well in 320x240, might as well give up12:58
dvdkkyak: i don't knw of x11 extensions.  maybe it used the early x-win port of aallegro that was later reintegrated?12:59
dvdkkyak: do you know of any problems in openwrt-trunk wrt C++ exception handling?  13:00
dvdki cannot get a clean backtrace of ase, but dumping the stack looks like an exception was thrown13:00
dvdk(it jumped to _ZNSsD1Ev@plt)13:00
kyaksorry, can't help you with that13:01
dvdkbut if qt works, I guess it cannot be that bad (but qt does not use exceptions)13:02
kyaki can tell that qt works13:02
qi-bot[commit] kyak: vitetris: terminal-based Tetris clone http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c8ada0d13:26
wpwrak<rjeffries> wpwrak something tht could drive atusb sales would be a standalone 802.15 gadget that has various i/o for sensors including i2c, plus gpio and a few analog pins plus the radio17:19
rjeffriesOrnotermrd long time no see17:19
rjeffrieswpwrak thanks!17:19
wpwrakrjeffries: yup, you could use either the MCU from atusb, or make a non-USB device17:19
rohisnt there a atrf based arduino board?17:20
wpwrakrjeffries: if you use the same MCU, you could even reuse the same firmware17:20
rjeffriesroh that is worth investigating 17:20
wpwrakroh: i think so, yes17:20
rohwpwrak: flash a fw which speaks serial on the usb pins of atusb ;)17:20
rjeffrieswpwrak in your atusb there were io pins you did not expose correct?17:21
wpwrakroh: atusb exposes a few GPIOs already. so .... :)17:21
wpwrakrjeffries: there are the ones used for ICSP. gives you three general-purpuse GPIOs plus power17:21
wpwrakrjeffries: admittedly not a lot17:21
rohwpwrak: welll... one could also use the atmega.. sure..17:21
wpwrakroh: dfu is rather nice to have around ;-)17:22
rjeffriesone really wants/needs i2c as many sensors support that 17:22
rohdfu is lightyears behind arduino bootloaders when it comes to practicality ;)17:23
rohno harm intended.17:23
wpwrakroh: what's impractical about  dfu-util -D stuff  ?17:24
rohwpwrak: it doesnt work from the users already-known devel environment.17:24
wpwrakrjeffries: alas, no hw I2C on that chip. but you could write a bit-banging master, why not17:24
wpwrakroh: duuuh :)17:25
rohwpwrak: and it works via serial too. makes for less complicated and expensive hw17:25
wpwrakroh: make that Fwhatever run dfu-util instead of whatever it is now. that can't be so hard :)17:25
rohwpwrak: that only works as long as you leave the pins usb17:26
wpwrakroh: they have no other use :)17:27
rohwpwrak: well.. its 2 pins on a connector. you could speak the i2c there.17:27
wpwrakroh: i'd rather use the big fat test points right next to it. remember, 3 gpios are available from icsp17:28
wpwrakroh: and that's if you can't be bothered to make your own board variant17:29
wpwrakroh: for lots of i/os, you'd of course want to do that. bring them out on headers, etc.17:29
rjeffrieslevrrasging astusb even if more expensive (doh) has advantage that it exists and is Known To Work. maybe lashing it together with some off the shelf Arduino talking serial between atben and Arduino would be a kludgy but ok way to start, no hardwra eneed be developed17:35
wpwrakrjeffries: if all you want is I2C, you could just hack a bit-banging I2C driver for atusb, then attach your sensor(s) to the test points. they have 0.1 in spacing, so you could even drill holes and use a header17:41
wpwrakrjeffries: (careful with the ground plane at the bottom, though)17:42
wpwrakerr no, sorry. there are traces underneath. no drilling.17:42
wpwrakbut you could solder the header sideways. that's even easier.17:43
rjeffrieswhat puzzles me is how atusb as a standalone will have protocol smarts to talk to atusb or atben over 802.15.4 + whatever higher level protocol17:44
wpwrakrjeffries: you'd have to write that too, of course :)17:45
rjeffriesadding i2c somehow to Ben is looking better and better. ;)17:45
wpwrakrjeffries: there's even a kernel driver that does this. but it would be easy enough to do in user space as well. for the physical interface, use UBB17:47
wpwrak(of course, you can't have UBB and atben at the same time)17:48
rjeffriesbut.... 8:10 slot will be occupied by the atben rf module. I did not make my intention/goal clear: want a REMOTE, wireless connection o a platform that supports i2c sensors (and ideally also supports other sensors )17:49
wpwrakrjeffries: your choices: 1) use atusb (mainly an execise in writing software), 2) make your own atusb variant (hint: the design files are open for a reason ;-), 3) get something like http://www.logos-electro.com/zigduino/17:53
wpwrak(or some other sufficiently open ieee 802.15.4 board)17:53
wpwrakspeaking of domotics: http://www.nxp.com/campaigns/greenchip/pages/smartlighting.php17:55
wpwrakNXP use IEEE 802.15.4. it's coming :)17:55
rjeffriesthis is pretty good news: http://www.logos-electro.com/blog/2011/6/3/a-new-zigduino-application.html17:56
rjeffriesContiki on Zigduino (which is FINALY available17:57
rjeffriesZigduino at $70 could be a decent choice for remote sensor node reachable by 802.15.4 and (eventually) 6Lowpan) from ben or atusb. 17:58
wpwraksure. no need to reinvent the wheel :)17:58
wpwrakif you want simpler and cheaper, tweak an atusb17:59
wpwrakthe good thing about open standards is that you can shop around. no need to get everything from a single source :)18:00
rejonwpwrak, yes, def. confirmed will be at FISL18:18
rejonpresenting mm118:18
wpwrakrejon: checking the schedule ...18:19
wpwrakah, the famous siesta slot :)18:20
wpwrakand the same for me :)18:20
wpwrakmine's on thurday. very good. 2nd day, so if there's a problem with the flight, i have some buffer. and early, so i can go drinking ;-)18:23
rejonhahahaha wpwrak 18:25
rejoncrap, not sure i'm ready18:25
DocScrutinizerNXP \o/18:26
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/atusb.c: added missing standard #includes http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/974620518:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/: split non-SPI code from atusb.c in preparation for SPI-based driver http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/13f031b18:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/: new mechanism for SPI commands (more general than reg/buf requests) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9a0184c18:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib: added USB-SPI driver for ATUSB http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a37bba818:50
rjeffriescool site search for parts http://octopart.com/18:55
wpwrakrjeffries: so-so. quite often, it just leads you astray. also, doesn't always things that are on sites it "knows about"18:57
wpwrakrjeffries: but yes, if desperate, that's one place to try18:57
wpwraklarsc: may i pick you brain for a moment ? there is a driver that does request_irq(...). now, in my case, i would generate this interrupt from things i get from USB. as far as i know, there's no platform-independent mechanism for assigning a "fake" interrupt number and then invoking that fake interrupt, correct ?19:00
Jay7article about ben wpan in russian19:16
Jay7should be fixed a bit19:16
Jay7well.. comments are different19:21
Jay7but there are more good comments19:21
wpwrakJay7: google translate does funny things with that text ;-) "WARNING!  Piece of iron, which is stuck in MicroSD does not work with normal MicroSD." ;-))20:29
Jay7that is my comment20:31
Jay7because they are says this is plain microsd module20:32
wpwrakJay7: (your comment) yeah, it has the "insider" tone ;-)20:32
Jay7check this one :)20:32
Jay7this even20:34
Jay7ah well.. they are changed text in main article20:35
Jay7hehe.. same "The piece of iron"20:35
Jay7ah.. that was really my slang :))20:36
Jay7and this is right translation :))20:36
larscwpwrak: irq_chip is what your are looking for i guess21:03
wpwraklekernel: hmm not sure ... but create_irq looks promising21:08
larscwhat do you want to do?21:09
larschave an irq number an trigger it?21:09
larscirq_chip is what you want21:10
wpwrakthe driver i want to use expects to be given an irq number21:10
wpwrakthen it will request_irq it21:11
larsctake a look for example at the jz4740_adc driver in drivers/mfd21:11
wpwrakhmm ... platform_get_irq21:15
Action: DocScrutinizer tags "real kernel hacker" label to larsc :-)21:16
mthlarsc: I think I now know how to make the cpufreq driver clean and safe21:17
larscwpwrak: platform_get_irq is for passing the irq number to the device which it passes to request_irq21:17
larscmth: nice :)21:17
mthI implemented it for MMC, still a lot of other devices (USB, LCD etc) to be done21:17
DocScrutinizerouch, again all based on CPU clock?21:18
DocScrutinizernasty hw21:18
mthDocScrutinizer: it's based on the same PLL21:18
mthyou can vary the CPU speed independently, but dividers are integer21:19
DocScrutinizerbeen a real PITA for FR S3C244221:19
mthand most people on the Dingoo want to be able to overclock in very small increments21:19
DocScrutinizerthe most annoying part is to avoid glitches on all the erial IF, when switching CPU clock21:20
DocScrutinizeras you can't witch clock and dividers atomically21:20
mthI just claim the entire MMC host to ensure it's not doing I/O while the PLL is reconfigured21:20
DocScrutinizerhope you don't find inbound transmissions garbled21:21
larscthe jz4740 can luckly change dividers and the pll atomically21:21
DocScrutinizeroh, nice21:21
mthsome dividers can be changed atomically, but not all of them21:21
mthand the bit for toggling the atomic dividers is the one that caused problems for MMC21:22
mthI have to explicitly disable that bit after the PLL change21:22
mthby the way, even for the ones that can be changed atomically, the docs still instruct you to gate the clock during the PLL change21:24
wpwraklarsc: now, my device is a usb dongle ... let's see if we have an example for some platform device registration ... here, one, misc/ftdi-elan.c ... hmm, lovely code. weaponized newlines :(21:24
wpwraklarsc: ok, i think i have an idea how to proceed. thanks a lot !21:32
mthlarsc: by the way, please don't forget to cherry pick the UDC fix21:33
mthinto jz-2.6.3921:33
DocScrutinizermth: so gating the clock sounds like inbound data gets garbled inevitably21:54
DocScrutinizeryou'd need to suspend all inbound data paths prior to doing that clock meddling21:55
DocScrutinizerby whatever means21:55
mthyes, and it's going to be different for every peripheral driver21:55
DocScrutinizeror postpone clock switching until all IO finished and it's guaranteed that it doesn't resume21:56
DocScrutinizermth: indeed, a PITA21:56
mthan easier but less elegant approach would be to suspend the system and set a new PLL on resume21:56
DocScrutinizerhey :-D21:57
DocScrutinizerthat's what I call a brilliant hack :-)21:57
mthI think it was Ayla who originally mentioned that idea21:58
DocScrutinizerof course clumsy21:58
DocScrutinizerbut anyway, should at least work21:58
mthit's always good to have a plan B21:58
mthit's even better if you don't have to use it :)21:58
DocScrutinizeror just temporaraily use it, as a stepstone21:59
DocScrutinizeriirc some brave guy fixed that annoying mess for s3c2442 in the end21:59
DocScrutinizerafter zillions of kernel locks and other 'nice' effects that were incredibly hard to debug22:00
DocScrutinizerprobably it's not completely debugged and evaluated yet today22:01
DocScrutinizeras it's almost impossible to create a proper testbed for all the races you may face22:01
mthyou can't really test parallel code22:02
mthwell, you can test and see it fail, but if it passes you still know very little22:02
mthI had hoped for static code analysis to help out here, but it's not happening yet22:02
DocScrutinizerI'm not sure about the current sttae of things, wouldn't be surprised to find cpufreq/governour not yet used on a larger basis at all, in SHR22:02
DocScrutinizermth: exactly22:03
DocScrutinizerwell, static code analysis as I know it is a lot of work :-)22:03
DocScrutinizerand no fun for most people22:04
mthI know, I've done formal proofs of 3 pages for a 10-line parallel program22:04
mththat's why I was hoping it would be (semi)automated by now22:05
DocScrutinizeryup, and for a system consisting of virtually an arbitrary number of peripherals it's almost  impossible22:05
DocScrutinizeryou just need 3..10 coders developing concurrently, the comparing their code and discuss the differences22:06
mthmy solution was to move to async communication wherever possible22:07
mthbut the Linux kernel is not built that way22:07
DocScrutinizersure, but that's hard22:07
mthfor networking I use Twisted nowadays22:07
mthand in our MSX emulator we handle all peripherals by posting events on the main thread and handling them there22:08
wpwrakmth: twisted ?22:08
DocScrutinizerthinking of a stupid simple tty interface, you need to consider latencies in periph, sw/hw handshake, whatnot22:08
mthwpwrak: async framework for Python22:08
wpwrakah :)22:08
mthit has loads of modules for various protocols22:08
mthand the interfaces are usually well designed22:09
wpwrakmth: for verification, the spin model checker can be quite useful22:09
wpwrakmth: and Promela beats writing pages of formal proofs ;-)22:09
DocScrutinizerI only know PROMEA22:09
mthwpwrak: thanks, I'll do some reading about those22:09
DocScrutinizerprogrammable multiple Eingabe/Ausgabe22:10
DocScrutinizera siemens serial card for sicomp M-series22:10
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: you write a model in Promela (a C-like language), then the model checker can do state space explorations and test certain properties. e.g., that your protocol doesn't spend infinite time without making progress or that you22:10
wpwrak're always able to handle the respective next message22:11
DocScrutinizersounds nice22:11
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: there are also some fancier things you can do with it. but the basics already give you a good idea of how your protocol really works.22:11
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: often, you actually find the bugs while making the model ;-)22:11
DocScrutinizerI'd expect the bugs sneaking in from improper definitions of system properties22:12
mthI needed something like this when I designed a simple 3-line communication protocol22:13
DocScrutinizere.g. dealing with tty IO, you need to take into account FIFO size and propagation delay of RTS/CTS handshake22:13
mthit worked great most of the time, but it could hang up on transmission errors22:13
DocScrutinizerfor the usual things I have my builtin natural promela ;-)22:14
DocScrutinizerwhich is one of my better properties22:14
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: you'd be surprised how badly even simple-looking protocols can derail :)22:16
DocScrutinizerI'm well aware :-)22:16
DocScrutinizernot unusual I exploit such flaws ;-)22:16
DocScrutinizergenerally it all boils down to "missing else" syndrome, most of the cases22:18
fusinmoin jungs22:52
fusinno 1 alive?22:56
fusinany guru awake?23:07
Action: fusin needs to pray once again ;)23:07
xMffthere are probably several gurus awake23:08
xMffbut since you didn't pose a question yet they can't decide on the responsibility23:08
fusinI need 'enlightement'.23:10
fusinIn other channel someone meant there ain't no need to use 64bit kernal, if memory < 4Gig.23:11
fusinHe pretend it is bad because 64bit programms need twice the memory compared to 32bit programs23:12
fusinis this treu?23:12
xMffbefore we discuss this further please be aware that this is the wrong channel23:12
xMffits not about general hardware but the Qi project in particular23:12
fusincoz if so: I run 3 days now without swap, and memory is seldom more than 40% in use23:12
xMffand yes, its true that 64bit programs use a bit more space but not exactly twice as much23:13
fusinokay & thx.23:15
fusinSo i shall reinstall in 32bits :D23:16
mthx86-64 has more registers though23:16
mthfor some applications that might give a performance boost23:16
mthdepends on whether it's limited by memory bandwidth or by raw processing power23:16
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.trunk-full_system-06182011-1954/23:16
--- Mon Jun 20 201100:00

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