#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2011-06-18

wpwrakrejon: (fisl) still haven't heard from them. checking their web site ...00:07
wpwrakrejon: nothing on the speakers list. don't see you there either.00:09
wpwrakrejon: the "program" link returns something unreadable00:10
wpwrakrejon: ah, in firefox it's readable ... checking ...00:12
wpwrakrejon: nope. don't see my name there. neither yours.00:13
wpwrakrejon: (liliputing) nice article !00:21
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: http://lwn.net/Articles/448179 00:37
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: thanks. But I know about the Exo's and am not really excited00:39
kristianpaulme either, just was waiting for your comments :-)00:39
DocScrutinizerthey're giving these away since months, on Intel events00:40
kristianpaulactually, when i saw rss entry on me reader i touch was something else not just another table :(00:40
wpwraktuxbrain_HxxHhzo: btw, any news on the sugru ?00:47
rjeffriesFabio Varesano's MS thesis is interesting. Uses KiCad. CC Sharealike license. He di Femtoduino as well as a cool 9 degrees of moyopm boatf that Spark Fun the redeigned and munged up. ;)04:12
rjeffries)dupe_ lekernel when you are ready to investigate asic this is a low entry cost vendor04:27
rjeffries21:26 <rjeffries> http://www.lfoundry.com/index.php?id=204 04:27
wpwraki wonder what would happen if i pulled the kernel tree from qi-kernel and the one from linux-zigbee into the same repository, to that i can fetch from each other. would all the gunk that i pull but that shows up only on one side also be sent along in the next push ? hmm ...05:43
rejonwpwrak, send them email05:46
rejonthey sent me one saying, please send final talk05:46
wpwrakrejon: who would be the contact ? fernanda ?05:46
rejonRodrigo Troian <rtroian@softwarelivre.org>05:46
rejonMachado <machadoufrgs@gmail.com>05:47
rejoncc them05:47
wpwrakrejon: thanks !05:47
wpwrakrejon: "final talk" = abstract ?05:47
wpwrakrejon: or slides ?05:48
rejon4 sentences05:48
wpwrakkewl. i'll see to it in the morning. more creative after a bit of sleep :)05:49
wpwrakrejon: what will you cover ?05:49
mthwpwrak: I would expect git would only push the commits that are in the history of the branch that is being pushed05:50
wpwrakmth: ought to be safe then ... hmm ... risk it or not, this is the question ...05:51
wpwrakmth: maybe another thing best pondered tomorrow :)05:51
rejonwpwrak, mm105:51
rejonand will think some about getting people involved05:52
rejonhow we can get more brazilian developers and biz onboard05:52
wpwrakrejon: anything about qi-hw, the ben, ... ?05:52
rejona lil bit about qi05:52
rejonbut i will try to shift my presentations to be less about freedom and copyleft05:52
rejonand more about our projects standing on their own legs05:53
wpwrakstanding in what way ? that they actually function in real life ?05:53
rejonmore about tech. innovation, less about social innovation05:55
rejoncultural innovation as well05:55
wpwrakyou really like to use the word "innovation" ;-)05:57
mththe Dingoo is quite popular in Brazil because there is a company making them locally and therefore they are very affordable compared to imported devices05:58
mthBrazil has very high import taxes for electronics, afaik05:59
wpwrakmth: very simple taxes: 100%05:59
mthso with open hardware, being able to manufacture in Brazil should be an advantage05:59
wpwrakmth: argentina is much cheaper. only 50%05:59
rejonmth, totally06:00
rejonexactly why i want to speak about this06:00
wpwrakmth: brazil also has interesting investment requirements for companies. they have to dedicate a certain amount of their revenue to R&D, be it in-house or something they deem worthy06:00
qi-bot[commit] Benson Leung: gpio-charger: Add gpio_charger_resume http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/8e7191d06:50
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: udc http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/6960c4506:50
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: jz4740: Fix compile error http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/7968eee06:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'jz-2.6.38' of projects.qi-hardware.com:qi-kernel into ben-wpan http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/fb18b4e06:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: at86rf230.c: synchronized with latest changes from linux-zigbee http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/865150306:50
dvdkanybody wanting to look over the slashdot article draft?  09:42
dvdkwant to submit it today, maybe in the next hour(s)09:43
whitequarkwpwrak: hey10:15
dvdkeverybody still asleep?  here is the slashdot article draft after the last round of updates: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Slashdot-20110615-benwpan#NanoNote_Goes_Wireless_v210:15
whitequarkdvdk: looks nice for me, through there may be some confusion about the SD slot (i.e. it isn't SDIO, as one may suppose)10:17
dvdkwhitequark: it does say neighet slot nor usb, just 'dongles'  let people figer out out through werner's page10:18
whitequarkdvdk: oh. just noticed the v2 part10:23
dvdkand another round of changes...10:25
dvdkwpwrak: ping10:34
dvdkwhich slashdot section to post it to:  'wireless' instead of 'hardware' this time?10:36
dvdkno, there isn't wireless, only 'mobile'10:37
dvdkno objections? going to post it now10:54
dvdkhere it is : http://hardware.slashdot.org/submission/1658610/NanoNote-goes-Wireless10:58
dvdkif you like, it click on '+' and mark the matching tags ('interesting' etc.)10:59
wpwrakdvdk: sound very good. thanks ! +'ed :)11:50
dvdkmornging werner12:00
wpwrakdvdk: we still haven't made heise.de. pretty much all the other news outlets have carried it, though. i wonder if tuxbrain has been interviewed by playboy yet :)12:04
dvdkwpwrak: where is the submit button on heise? :)12:04
Action: dvdk starts searching for the heise.de submit button12:05
wpwrakdvdk: at the bottom of the newsticker: "Fehlt eine wichtige Nachricht? Geben Sie uns Bescheid!" (a mail link)12:05
wpwrakdvdk: newstips@heise.de12:05
dvdkdoesn't show here. maybe only if logged in?12:07
dvdkah, found.  12:08
fusinhi QIots :oO16:04
fusinstupid question from me:16:21
fusinWhat happens, if I run Linux without swap (neither partition nor file), and memory is full used?16:22
fusinI mean, what happens, if a programm tries to start, but there ain't enough memory anymore AND Linux can't swap?16:22
fusindoes it hang, or does the programm simmply not start?16:22
kyakfusin: as far as i know, at this point oom (out of memory) killer will come to stage and try to find the candidate application to kill16:39
fusinwouldn't it be better to 'pop' a message saying "Out of memry" ?16:40
kyakmost of the time, this is exactly what happens16:46
fusinaah ;)16:46
kyakyour program terminates with an oom message16:46
fusinmy idea is: using my laptop with SSD, and as those are 1:expensive and 2: not too bog (as HD), I dislike to know that I spend space for swap, if it's not really neaded.16:48
fusinEspecialy as too many rewrites kill the SSD16:49
kyakmaybe try to live without swap for some time and see how it works16:49
fusinSo far I can see for now, my Laptop don't even use full 2GB of memory, so why should I block 2GB of HD-space?16:49
kyakthat's fair16:50
fusinwell, that's exactly what I do since I installed this new Laptop16:50
fusinIf I see it well worked, I will move to an SSD drive16:50
fusinas they use less battery power16:50
fusinand I do not really need a drive bigger as 16 or 32Gig16:51
larscswap is also used for suspend-to-ram16:52
fusinnever used suspend to ram. I mostly suspend to disc OR shutdown fully.16:54
fusinI could of course also live without 'suspend'.16:54
fusinour NanoNote does not suspend either, isn't it? :D16:55
dvdkbrace for impact!17:11
dvdkthe /. submission was just copied into the 'stories' category so I guess it'll appear on the frontpage anytime soon17:12
kyakdvdk: there are 3 items i wanted to report about ase, while you are here: 1) It is not possible to select any tool from dropdown menu of toolbox (try selecting elipse tool?) 2) ase terminates (not segfault) when trying to save a file 3) some shortcuts are not working, like Ctrl+N, Ctrl+O17:19
kristianpauloh, "GPS BB Controller"17:20
kristianpaulso i just need to plug a gps frontend as it seems have input for clk, sig and mag :-)17:23
dvdkkyak: are you using ase with the latest liballegro?  i fixed a few keyboard issues with allegro  that kept ase from working.17:25
dvdkanyway thanks for the report17:25
dvdkgoing to look into it17:26
dvdk(as soon as you confirm that all bits are up-to-date in your NN)17:26
dvdkyeah, "Nanonote goes Wireless" sighted on slashdot.org front page17:27
xMffI think slashdot really is the wrong audience17:29
xMffthe actual tinkeres seem to have left it years ago17:29
dvdkxMff: looks like it.  though i hope that slashdot_commenters != slashdot_readers17:31
dvdkmaybe the wrong interpretation.  17:33
dvdkslashdot has lots of readers, so the message is going to get to the tinkerers who understand what we're doing, although the number of readers missing our message will be relatively high.17:34
xMffproblem is they talk it down17:39
xMffwhich drives away potentially interested people17:39
dvdkxMff: wait for the moderation.  17:41
dvdkxMff: i think the kind of people who buy these tinker toys won't give a shit for these iphone/apple fanboys' rants17:42
xMffbut its saddening anyway17:42
dvdkxMff: yeah totally, it makes me consider closing down my /. account and never look back.17:42
xMffand this isn't the first of its kind, the last slashdot article was similar17:43
dvdk... and if i never waste my time reading slashdot again, i think something positive has come out of it anyways :)17:45
dvdknot yet slashdotted :)17:47
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.trunk-full_system-06172011-1415/17:48
dvdkkyak: hmm, did i accidentally kill the ctrl key in ASE?  made it to ignore Fn (lcontrol), only taking rcontrol17:49
kristofferwow slashdot, sweet18:01
fusin_slashdot readers are no geeks anymore18:02
fusin_they just follow mainstream (iPone/Android etc.pp)18:03
GNUtoomaybe real geeks read lwn18:03
GNUtoohi bt18:03
GNUtoo*hi btw18:03
fusin_real geeks don't read :-þ18:03
GNUtoothey read....source code18:04
fusin_they peek & poke (as we said in good old c64 times) :-D18:04
GNUtoolike kernel maintainers18:04
fusin_my swapless-times doing well since 2 days now18:05
kristofferYeah slashdot has gone abit commercial, but still has the occasional "I built a cpu from ten cans of coke"18:05
fusin_still not more than 40% use of memory (no swap)18:05
kristofferBtw, did anyone read the funny bumblebee commit message?18:06
fusin_OS is LMDE 64bit and I run Wine, and inside Wine an app based on Tcl/Tk, alongside with this XChat ans a FF4 running all the time...18:07
kristofferah, linux mint18:08
fusin_yep, nice one18:09
lekernelwow, so many asshole comments on slashdot19:00
kyaknot even interesting to read those19:04
rohwho cares about /.19:10
rohits not 1999 anymore *scnr*19:10
wpwraklekernel: isn't that's what /. is about ? ;)19:33
lekernelroh, so what media would you recommend instead?19:33
wpwraklekernel: LWN seems to work rather nicely. even made it all the way from there to the wall street journal: http://onespot.wsj.com/gadgets/2011/06/17/0c4f0/qi-hardware-makes-open-source-wireless20:28
wpwraklekernel: (as a repost, not as an article. but still.)20:28
rejonyeah, lots of reposts20:51
rejoni'm curious about if this moved some sales20:51
wpwrakrejon: indeed. tuxbrain is very quiet. i wonder if he's busy shipping boards by the container :)21:22
wpwrakrejon: some sales should also end up at sharism. alas, wolfgang doesn't have wpan boards to sell yet. so this will cause a but if confusion.21:23
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: I wonder if they'll find the 113~ units in a container ;-D22:52
DocScrutinizerif you're not using a huge box to package them, they possibly will drop thru a hole and an empty container arrives22:53
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: maybe tuxbrain is busy finding suitable packaging material ;-)23:00
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: or maybe he's negotiating the next 100 kunits order :)23:00
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: well, if there's a lot of demand, he should be able to make another ~400 units fairly quickly. he had ordered ~500 PCBs for each (almost the same price as ~100 pieces), and ordering new components should take something like 2-3 days.23:04
DocScrutinizeror he's trying to sell a single unit rather than seeing the 100k getting produced by the potential customer23:04
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: that's another possibility. he has already sold at least 6 atusb, though :)23:05
DocScrutinizeryou'd have to compete in savings made from your already established process, compared to the savings for customer when doing it on their own23:06
wpwrakwell, the "good" customers think like this23:06
DocScrutinizeryou'd also compete on setup time til shipment23:06
wpwrakthe "bad" ones (the majority) compare prices to mass-produced vaguely similar products23:06
DocScrutinizerthere are none23:07
DocScrutinizerwhich all but the most stupid "bad customers" have to appreciate23:07
wpwrakoh, Wifi USB dongles :) i said "vaguely"23:07
DocScrutinizersb interested in atusb is particularly interested in free wireless, otherwise goes for dirt cheap WiFi23:08
wpwraki don't think we can convince many people who think like this. a few may not understand the price and feel they're being cheated. we may be able t reach these.23:08
wpwrakbut the ones who will always go cheapest, no way23:08
wpwrakwe also have a captive customer base with the ben (-:C23:09
DocScrutinizeroh, is it a large customer base? will it develop momentum?23:09
wpwrak~1200-1300 units sold, each a potential atben user. we'll see how the pickup is.23:10
DocScrutinizerthat's decent23:11
DocScrutinizeryou explicitly adverised ben-free atusb-only setup too?23:11
DocScrutinizer(if that works at all - I gather it should)23:12
wpwrakpreparing my abstract for FISL 12: any comments ? http://pastebin.com/Ek53EAJ623:24
wpwraki didn't put things like GPS, HopeRF, or the ben cases/bags in the abstract, but i'll mention them in the presentation.23:25
wpwrakor, and ubb and ubb-vga as well, of course :)23:26
kristianpaullooks good, is an abstract after all :-)23:39
wpwrakhmm. that's better ? "Copyleft Hardware", like "Free Software", or rather "copyleft hardware", like it's used on qi-hardware.com ? 23:40
wpwrakwhere's wolfgang when we need him ? :)23:40
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah, it can only get better in the presentation ;-)23:40
kristianpaulcopyleft hardware is a movement23:41
kristianpaulnot sure if like free software movement... but i think freedom stack can inlustrate a bit the situation23:41
wpwrak"Free Software" is also used to describe the characteristics of a piece of software23:42
Fusinhmm Copyleft Hardware?23:45
Action: Fusin made a copy from his Ben, but that stupid picture wont boot.23:46
FusinI gues some errors in bootcode :-þ23:47
wpwrakFusin: you're booting _pictures_ ? :)23:47
Action: wpwrak checks if that last nap didn't take a few decades longer than planned, and the world has changed quite radically23:48
larscwell, others boot images23:54
larscnot much of a difference ;)23:54
kristianpaulwpwrak: your slides are going to be presende from the nanonote?23:56
wpwrakkristianpaul: i hope i'll manage that. i think i need to make a more solid ubb-vga board first, though. and i'll have to work on the timing.23:57
wpwrakkristianpaul: and yes, i'll have a laptop with me, just in case ... :)23:57
Fusinlarsc: touché23:57
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