#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-06-16

DocScrutinizerhere around .25EUR!00:03
SpeedEvil$20 - and making noises of price rises00:03
DocScrutinizerlol, here too. You know, losing **dirt cheap** nuke power00:04
DocScrutinizersome independent experts say in ~4 years we're better off *without* nuke powerplants00:05
DocScrutinizerjust for the energy costs00:05
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (.25 EUR) wow.00:14
DocScrutinizeryoh00:14
DocScrutinizerhttp://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.public/joerg900.10114?sort=0 +/- hehe - wonder if I should pierce it and throw into water00:15
wpwrakhere it's subsidized. the real price would be ~0.04 EUR00:15
DocScrutinizerhttp://share.ovi.com/album/joerg900.public is probably better to pick a pic you like, like that one: http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.public/joerg900.1012500:17
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: water sounds good :)00:18
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: I was playing with that chinese card and found an interesting glitch: if I set up netcat to send zeros over udp (feeding from 100M ethernet), that card easily sends/receives more than 92 Mbits of traffic in each direction00:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: at86rf230: straighten out RX vs. TX synchronization http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/5b8a92600:46
whitequarkbut if I touch it, or even the usb cable, the bitrate instantly falls to under 1Mbit00:46
whitequarkwhy that may happen? I don't see how touching the USB cable may affect the card itself00:48
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: which card?00:50
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/3540500:51
whitequarkcontains Ralink RT3070L and a custom 1W ASIC amplifier00:51
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: his 1 W WLAN ghettoblaster ;-) (designed by the chinese from the dirty side of town)00:51
DocScrutinizerhah00:51
DocScrutinizerof course the card and usb cable are part of the antenna00:52
whitequarkhuh?!00:52
whitequarkthe _USB_cable_ is a part of antenna?00:52
wpwrakrejon: (wiki sections) pheew. manana. already too much word-wrestling for today :)00:52
DocScrutinizerthere's no such thing like single-ended antennae - it's always a dipole of one kind or another00:52
DocScrutinizerthat's what nobody really got when I explained where buzz of GTA02 came from00:53
whitequarkso then, the antenna, card itself, my netbook, me, on whom the netbook lies, form one great kind of antenna?00:55
whitequarkweird00:55
DocScrutinizeras there's no battery wit just one pole, there's no transmitter with just one antenna pin. It's always a balanced output, and if you don't use a symmetrical dipole for antenna, you connect one of both ends to "GND", whatever that means00:55
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: yes00:55
whitequark... and the wireless performance will then depend on USB cable quality?00:56
whitequarkand length00:56
whitequarkand thickness00:57
DocScrutinizerpartially, yes00:57
wpwrakwhitequark: and exact distance to the moon ;-)00:58
DocScrutinizeryou can see what things really are like when you look at large groundplane marconi radiators00:58
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14182/img/14182_212_2.jpg00:59
whitequarkthen, the whole idea of wifi dongle is flawed fundamentally01:00
DocScrutinizernah, why?01:02
wpwrakwhitequark: your laptop is your ground plane01:02
DocScrutinizerusually your real gndplane of the circuit forms the gndplane for the antenna01:02
whitequarkwell, you'll then never get good performance without proper grounding, and you'll never get one when plugging into some unknown laptop01:02
whitequarkor am I wrong here?01:03
wpwrakwhitequark: your laptop will have quite a lot of ground :)01:03
DocScrutinizerthe size of active gndplane is hardly larger than the antenna itself01:03
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: hmm, TI claim that the size of the box you connect to matters (in their description of the PCB antenna i used)01:04
DocScrutinizerthe virtual antenna size though, or simply the wavelength01:04
DocScrutinizereverything >2 or >3 lambda is irrelevant01:05
whitequarkthe dongle itself is about 80mm in length, while the wavelength is 125mm01:05
DocScrutinizer:nod:01:05
DocScrutinizerso the ground via USB will matter01:06
DocScrutinizeras you see with your ghettoblaster ;-)01:06
DocScrutinizero/ 01:06
Action: DocScrutinizer needs some food01:06
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: placing the dongle on a steel table or tin foil may help a lot for performance01:16
DocScrutinizershould extend from footpoint of antenna all directions at last one wavelength01:17
DocScrutinizerof course horizontally, while antenna vertical01:18
whitequarkI should make a tin foil hat probably01:18
DocScrutinizerI actually knew a guy who mounted his CB car lambda-5/8 on a copper dish of lambda/2 diameter and placed that contraption at his attic01:20
DocScrutinizerhe claimed it to be the best antenna for 27MHz he ever had01:20
Action: whitequark is testing the tin foil thing01:21
SpeedEvilThat's a lot of copper01:24
whitequarkhmm, looks like my testing method (nc -u server 1000 </dev/zero) isn't very good01:27
whitequarkping: sendmsg: No buffer space available01:27
whitequarknever seen anything like that01:28
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: placing it on a quite large sheet of tin foil actually halves the bandwidth01:30
rejonwpwrak, cool01:35
awwpwrak, how to use http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/fab/gerb2pbm ?01:42
awwpwrak, i meant syntax in command line. :-)01:43
whitequark  01:56
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: then the antenna of that device might be tuned to have no such classic gnd01:56
DocScrutinizerthe problem probably is you make the antenna better with that gndplane, but same time you detune it, so it's a better antenna for the wrong frequency01:57
whitequarkthere's also some network stack (?) issue01:58
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: (lot of copper) indeed ;-P01:59
whitequarkwhen I do the udp-flooding from Ethernet side of router, the card receives 93Mbps without any problems01:59
whitequarkbut when I do the same from the wifi side, it chokes just on the laptop01:59
whitequarktcp works fine, but the bandwidth is around 40Mbps02:00
awwpwrak, and is "(set-render-type! 2)" a 'Normal' or 'High quality' type?02:06
antoni`Hi all, I have read that the project atben is not wifi because there is not a real libre 802.11 hardware. Is this true? 02:20
antoni`I use my wifi with free drivers...02:20
SpeedEvilIt's not that simple.02:29
mth_antoni`: if I remember correctly from a discussion earlier tonight, the problem is that there is no hw with public specs that is suitable for mobile devices02:30
SpeedEvilThe firmware is invariably closed02:30
SpeedEvilWell - almost invariably.02:30
SpeedEvilAnd the ones that are open or reverse engineered are not suitable.02:30
mth_if you're interested in the details, please check the logs, they're online at the Qi site02:30
rohwell.. i think its many factors. one is documentation available, but also chip availability, power useage etc.02:33
SpeedEvilSelection is fun!02:34
DocScrutinizero/ roh 04:49
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-06152011-0855/06:12
DocScrutinizerinvented another nice term (along with and same semantic cloud as "to tepco")  >>man, are you poettering?!"06:15
DocScrutinizer'sth. is poettering' means 'it behaves invasive, destructive, and generally in an unpleasant pathological erratic way'06:17
DocScrutinizerthis cancer is extremely poettering06:18
wpwrakaw: gerb2ppm input.pho output.pbm06:38
wpwrakaw: (warning) this one generates bitmaps, not those nice images. it's meant to be used as a building block in the future06:38
awwpwrak, hi thanks, how about mixing them together when using 'Normal' & 'High quality' and gerb2ppm can also do it?06:39
awwpwrak, strange. I found your time is 3:40 in Buenos Aires?06:41
wpwrakaw: (type 2) is should be "high quality", but i think gerbv more or less ignores that argument06:42
awwpwrak, okay... so do i need to re-git clone your eda tool? or just download that 'gerb2ppm'?06:44
wpwrakaw: if you want to make the high quality images, you're need a different script. gerb2ppm is intended as a building block for future use. (i don't like how gerbv mixes the colors - you can get nice results, but it's very hard to get it right)06:45
wpwrakaw: the script that does nice gerbers for M1 would be http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/fab/m1/prettygerbv06:46
wpwrakaw: (i.e., altium) for kicad, it's http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/fab/prettygerbv06:47
wpwrakaw: (3:40) yup. had a quick nap before. woke up and decided to have a look for what's going on in the world :)06:47
awwpwrak, yes, i saw that great one. :-) so that 'prettygerbv' also is done by 'gerb2ppm' or not the same one. or it specifically for altium m1? sorry i repeat it. :-)06:49
awwpwrak, yeah...very late there. :-)06:50
wpwrakaw: the one in fab/ is for kicad. the one in fab/m1/ is for altium.06:50
awwpwrak, okay. got it, thanks. u should be asleep now. :-)06:52
wpwrakyeah, will be soon :)06:52
DocScrutinizer(very late) nah, very early06:54
DocScrutinizerhere it's even more late, or less early (but somewhat still too early in the morning)06:57
awDocScrutinizer, hi, very later = very early; east = west. :-)06:57
DocScrutinizerhehe06:57
DocScrutinizerand at 180° lon one step can cost you a whole day06:58
DocScrutinizerfunny thing, they seem to have managed it in a way this date-limit hits amazingly few solid ground07:00
DocScrutinizerfrom 65°-69°N there's a bit where you actually can walk across the line07:03
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: are you sure ? seems to avoid land quite consistently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_line07:10
DocScrutinizeryes, I know it does this for tuvalu etc or the like, alas marble doesn't show the real data-limit07:11
DocScrutinizerdate-line07:11
DocScrutinizerso I had to go for 180°07:11
DocScrutinizeryay, confusing07:13
DocScrutinizerhaha, ships heading eastward are going from east to west07:22
awdoes anyone know that what s/w i need to install when i get "pgmtopbm: not found"?08:03
kyaknetpbm08:03
awkyak, great. tks. my problems solved. :-)08:07
kyak:)09:47
kyakdvdk: hi!09:47
dvdkmoring.09:47
dvdkbtw what causes these 'has been looking for' messages emitted by the bot?09:47
kyaki've tried the ase editor keymouse, it works almost great09:48
dvdkdid you see the segfault?09:48
kyakthe bot just informs you because i did "!seen dvdk"09:48
dvdkthis is what i thought.  ok.09:48
kyakno, i didn't see the segfault, but sometimes arrow keys are "leaked" to main interface09:48
dvdkkyak: arrow keys always leak to the main interface :)09:49
kyakand then it feels the same as when using keymouse, because keys start to control menus09:49
dvdkkyak: which parts?  the menu?  maybe we need to tweek usr share gui.xml further.09:49
dvdkah, ok, the menu.  yes having a look at it.09:49
dvdki guess the sefaults come from excessive layer switching which was previously bound to Up/Down 09:49
kyaki only used it to draw a couple of lines, but didn't see the segfault (yet?)09:50
dvdkkyak: if you see it, remember what keys you pressed.  need to find out how to reproduce it so i can backtrace it with gdb09:50
kyaki'll try to09:51
dvdkkyak: btw you know any details about our version of freetype?09:51
dvdkbecause ase has its own copy of freetype included with the sources.09:51
dvdkis our version better?  i.e. tweaked for the ben's special display?09:51
kyakhm.. i don't know anything special about our version09:51
kyakit's a complete stock, not a single patch09:52
dvdkhmm, menu key bindings seem to be hardcoded.09:52
dvdkneed another patch09:52
kyaki wonder why it looks so good even with this tiny icons/fonts09:56
kyakit feels like a fully-functional window even that it is 320x24009:56
dvdkkyak: on the PC you can run ASE with 'scaling' i.e. 320x240 pixels scaled to 640x480 or larger.  so this is really old-school :)09:57
kyakheh :)09:58
dvdkok, patching the menu to use Shift+Arrow keys for menu navigation09:59
dvdkanyplace else where "leaking" of arrow keys is a problem?09:59
dvdk(but you don't have to run ase at 320x240 scaled, looks like the pc version supports many resolutions)10:01
kyakyeah, when hovering on some icon to the right (for example, to select line tool)10:01
kyakthere is an expansion menu, and then keys leak10:01
dvdkkyak: you mean the tool box also consumes arrow keys?10:01
kyakyep10:01
dvdktrying to find it .  maybe a std listbox10:01
dvdk?10:01
kyakit's here: <!-- Keyboard shortcuts to select tools -->10:03
kyakbut there are no shortcuts for arrows10:03
dvdkkyak: i think i can reproduce it by "clicking'" onto the pencil tool10:04
dvdkthis opens a sub-menu that vanishes as soon as i press arrow10:04
kyakthat's right10:04
dvdkhmm, checking for shift doesn't seem to work10:05
dvdkoopsk checking with | (or) is the wrong way :)10:05
kyakah, so you doing it in sourse10:11
kyaki thought you were playing with gui.xml :)10:11
dvdkkyak: already hacked the gui.xml, but it does not cover the internal menu stuff10:12
dvdkbtw did you look at the code?  they've done their own menu system.  which looks _really_ neat.  using xml to describe menus etc.10:12
kyakyes, i noticed that extensive declaration of menu in gui.xml10:13
dvdkand then they copied the look and feel of Gtk without using any code from gtk :)10:13
kyakand, their implementation is much faster10:14
kyakbtw, i'm disappointed by gtk again, since they dropped directfb support from gtk3 and somewhat heavilty broken it in gtk2 > 2.1710:15
kyakthen it's only qt, sdl and ..liballegro :)10:16
bartbeswhat gui lib were you guys talking about?10:21
bartbesalso, dvdk, how dare you use "neat" and "xml" on the same line?!10:21
bartbes:P10:21
dvdkkyak: but how are they going to run gtk with wayland?10:22
kyakdvdk: it will work with wayland10:23
kyakdoes it have anything to do with directfb?10:23
kyakbartbes: it's liballegro10:23
dvdkkyak: thought gtk would draw on wayland via directfb10:40
dvdkwhich api does it use instead?  can we support that on the NN?10:40
kyaki think gtk3 will support both X11 and Wayland10:42
dvdkcan we make wayland run on directfb? :)10:44
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: ase: improved keyboard-mouse support: filter out arrow keys unless shift pressed http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/33f9a7310:47
dvdkkyak: think i got it.  just filtering out all arrow messages at the lowest level10:47
dvdknow maybe we also need mouse wheel emulation?  haven't found out how to scroll via the keyboard yet10:48
kyakis it actually used?10:48
kyakit could be done via Volume keys :)10:48
dvdkbtw there's no pgup/pgdown on the nanonote?  Red+volup/down doesnt seem to work10:50
kyakwhere did you try it?10:51
dvdkfor example console scrolling 10:51
dvdk(shift+pgup/pgdown)10:52
kyakthis works for control scrolling10:52
kyaktry shift+volume keys10:52
dvdkyou mean without red?10:52
dvdkbtw how do i exit from showkeys?  reboot?10:53
dvdkah, eventually exuited10:53
dvdk(but console unusable now :/10:53
kyaksure, without red10:53
dvdkbut i can scroll. nice10:53
dvdkdidnt know10:53
kyakyou don't want to press three keys to scroll the console, do you? :)10:53
kyakto exit the showkeys you just do nothing for 10 sec.. unfortunately, this console is ruined anyway :)10:54
kyaktrying ase now10:54
kyak(always want to say "Arse") :)10:54
dvdkme too :)10:55
kyakit's great!10:55
kyakyou disabled the arrows completely, right?10:56
kyakcauses some inconvenience on dialogs10:56
kyakbut it's ok10:56
dvdkno, you arrow events are let through if combined with 'shift'10:56
kyakah ok10:56
kyakso anytime i want a keyboard arrow, i'll press the shift+arrow10:57
dvdkyes, but the shift will get through, too.  don't see a problem though10:57
kyakyou made pointer acceleration good, it feels right :)10:57
dvdkkyak: it's a physics engine :)10:58
kyaki can draw shit on Ben now10:58
dvdk(i.e. accelerated motion with kind of drag)10:58
kyakdo you mean you used the liballegro physical engine for that?10:59
dvdk:) nope, liballegro is too oldschool to have physics.  just look at the patch to see what i mean 'ak' is acceleration on keypress 'ad' acceleration due to drag, when not pressed10:59
dvdkso if you're quick you can even draw rounded shapes11:00
kyakthat's pretty hard :) i fear i'll break the keypad11:03
dvdkmaybe reduce the acceleration? :)11:03
kyakgood it's fast liek hell...11:04
kyaki'm not sure, perhaps the cursor should have some inertia?11:04
kyakthis way one could draw round shapes11:05
dvdkbut it has inertia.  this is why it accelerates with a != infinity :)11:05
dvdk(but a is too close to infinity currently?11:05
dvdkwhat you mean is maybe drag is too high (i.e. deceleration when you released the key)11:06
kyakperhaps the deceleration is too fast11:06
kyaki.e. it stops momentarily11:06
dvdkjust reduce 'ad', try 1 or 211:07
dvdk(just patch the patch :)11:07
kyaki'll try that11:07
kyakdvdk: are you aware about other liballegro apps?11:08
dvdkthere are not too many good games, i'm afraid :(  11:09
kyakah, http://www.allegro.cc/11:09
dvdkalready hacked a version of vertigo flight simulator to work at 320x24011:09
dvdkhttp://sourceforge.net/projects/vertigo/develop11:09
dvdkbut it's really old stuff11:09
kyaki'm not so interested in games.. It's more interesting what kind of other fast apps can be there11:09
dvdkthere's an editor, FED, but it's a little broken with allegro 4.  also not too good.11:10
kyakthe allegro itself seems to be in development. Why is that?11:10
dvdkah, already eying the multiamp multimedia player written in allegro11:10
dvdkwith mod/xm/mid/ogg playback11:10
dvdkalso very old, might need work11:10
kyakhttp://www.allegro.cc/depot/utility/listing :)11:11
dvdksorry, that link is wrong11:11
dvdkkyak: know allegro.cc but you cannot sort by : - screen resolution - open source licensing.  so it's a little useless11:11
dvdkah, found out how to scroll: middle mouse button (F2) plus arrows11:12
kyakyeah, probably..11:12
dvdkthis is the patched flight simulator11:12
dvdkhttp://sourceforge.net/projects/vertigo-fs/develop11:12
kyakhow do you use scrolling?11:12
dvdkkyak: for moving arounud in larger images 11:13
dvdklook at the key manual: ASE can do a lot: http://aseprite.com/quickref-0.8.1.pdf11:13
dvdk(just updated the link in the applications wiki page)11:13
kyakall right, i'll have a look11:14
dvdkoops, pressing Fn+2 crashes11:14
dvdklooks like the NN's number keys cannot be used for zooming?  hmm, do they generate keypad codes?11:15
kyakhah, ad=1 turns pointer uncontrollable, feels like mario :)11:15
kyakmight set to something higher11:15
dvdk(like mario): ROFL11:17
dvdklooks like zooming is impossible without mouse wheel nor number keys11:17
kyakany physical key generates some code, and then a modifier can be applied (like "fn" in case of Ben's numbers)11:17
dvdkPressing Fn+1 is interpreted as Alt+N.  maybe allegro's keyboard driver is too low-level?11:18
kyakit probably uses it's own keyboard driver11:18
dvdkyes, it certainly is,  it uses sort of scan codes (maybe input events), that are then put into messages by the 'jinete' gui system that comes with ASE11:18
dvdkOUCH11:19
dvdkthat means: more hacking11:19
dvdkyes, i cannot write numbers in ase's text input fields11:19
dvdkwill have to look at allegro'skey driver.  different layouts can be configuerd11:20
kyakyeah, i noticed it has it's layouts11:20
kyaki tried selecting Russian, but nothing happened :)11:21
dvdkbut thought those aren't used with unix, only with the dos port11:21
dvdkmaybe something else going on11:21
dvdkah, allegro source lkeybd.c11:22
dvdkit maps11:22
dvdk0x02 to key_1, isn't that supposed to be right?11:23
dvdkmaybe it fails because 'alt' is pressed.  why does 'fn' map to alt??11:24
dvdkshoudln't Fn be hidden completely?11:24
dvdkok, it even uses kernel's keyboard map:                 ioctl (std_keyboard.fd, KDGKBENT, &kbe);11:25
dvdkbut maybe wrongl?11:25
dvdklooks like it doesn't pass Fn as the right keboard map selector to the ioctl?11:25
kyakFn is mapped to CtrlL11:26
dvdkok, where can i find a readable description of NNs keymap?11:27
kyaki'm looking it here http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/ben-cyrillic/files/ben_ru_uni.map11:28
kyakit's the same as default keymap + cyrillic layout11:29
dvdkoor other question: if allegro correctly handles the shift (maybe altGr) modifier, why does it fail for ctrlL?11:29
dvdkhmm, allegro sets map=1 for shift, map+=2 for altgr, +=4 for control, +=8 for alt.  isn't that correct?11:30
kyakdunno, maybe the allegro_KEY_LCONTROL with keycodes needs to be specifically mapped to numbers11:30
kyakyep, that's should be correct, but not complete11:31
dvdkand the lcontrol keycode for allegro looks right11:31
kyakread "man keymaps" COMPLETE KEYCODE DEFINITIONS11:31
kyakthere is a table of modifiers and their weights11:32
kyakhttp://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/tree/trunk/target/linux/xburst/patches-2.6.37/500-modifier-keys.patch11:32
kyakthis is our actual patch for kernel keymap, perhaps less readable11:32
dvdk4 for cotr is maybe wrong, maybe we need  (1<<kbctrll)?11:34
dvdklooking here:11:34
dvdkhttp://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/include/linux/keyboard.h?a=powerpc#L711:34
dvdkyes, guess your keymap binds on lcontrol, not control in general11:34
dvdkwhat about the 'red' key?11:34
dvdkred is altgr? that shoul be right11:35
kyakyep, Red is AltGr11:35
kyakwe have th eCtrl already11:36
kyakthat's why Fn is CtrlL11:36
dvdkadded if (key[__allegro_KEY_LCONTROL]) map |= (1<<6);11:37
dvdklet's see whether that's better11:37
kyakhm11:39
kyaki believe weights are powers of two11:39
kyakdid you have a look at man keymaps?11:39
kyakCtrlL is 6411:40
dvdkno it's not about weights, it's about the 'map' value used by KDGKBENT?11:40
dvdk1<<6 is 64!?11:40
dvdkbut i just had 4 + 1<<6 and it didn't work.  recompiling without the 4 (ctrl)11:41
kyakuh.. ok :)11:41
dvdkwell it did work in that fn+1 etc is ignored11:41
dvdkcompletely11:41
dvdkcool, now i can enter numbers in dialogs!!11:42
dvdkbut it interprets Fn+1 as Ctrl+1 i guess11:43
dvdk(?)11:43
dvdkas it doesn't zoom but instead split the screen11:43
dvdkmaybe keymap out of date11:44
dvdkyeah, it's what i though-:11:45
dvdkt11:45
dvdk      <key command="split_editor_vertically" shortcut="Ctrl+2" />11:45
dvdkso it sees the ctrl11:45
dvdkthis is another problem with the custom gui.  they just get the modifiers separately from the scancodes11:45
dvdkthe volume keys map to what exactly?  F14/F1511:47
dvdk?11:47
dvdkwill try to make them work as zoom keys11:48
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: liballegro: fix keyboard driver issues with nanonote's Fn key http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/47a2f3f11:49
bartbesdvdk: btw, regarding wayland on fb, don't think so, one of the primary features of wayland is more direct access to opengl etc, also, doesn't wayland depend on stuff like KMS?11:50
DocScrutinizerdvdk: uh? 4 + (1<<6) ?11:50
DocScrutinizerprobably you mean (4+1)<<6 ?11:50
bartbesDocScrutinizer: I think he means 68, so that would be 4 + (1<<6)11:51
DocScrutinizerhmm, anyway I'd write that as 1<<6 + 4 then11:52
kyakdvdk: they should be F11/F1211:54
wpwrakoh, today is thursday. funny. thought it was already friday. my inner calendar is really messed up :)15:46
wpwraktuxbrain_HxxHhzo: nice ... that's actually a valid sequence ;-))15:54
dvdkthe ASE keycode fixing odyssey continues18:59
dvdksomebody knows which keycode Fn+Number generates?  Could it be that those generate keyPAD-numbers, not keyBOARD-numbers?19:00
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: liballegro: yet another keyboard fix for 'Fn' key. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/0244a5319:02
wpwrakdvdk: Fn keys are evil :)19:08
wpwrakdvdk: btw, seems that /. dropped your submission. next try maybe tomorrow ?19:08
dvdkwpwrak: what about saturday?  maybe less standard news volume.  saturday worked nicely last time (ubb-vga)19:30
dvdkbtw article needs lots of fixing.  don't like how it was changed for technical correctness.  "WIFI spec"?  don't think that normal people are going to know what is meant (?)19:30
dvdkwpwrak: custom keyboard drivers implemented inside libraries are evil :)19:31
wpwrakdvdk: (sat) sound good too19:32
wpwrakdvdk: (fixing) yeah, could use some streamlining. each word you can delete without changing the meaning is good ;-)19:34
wpwrakdvdk: (custom kbd drivers) hmm, what should i say with all my user-space bit-banging drivers ? :)19:34
Action: dvdk thinks that the orthography of tuxbrain's WPAN pages needs to be fixed before posting any news. 19:35
Action: dvdk looks over tuxbrain's page and cannot find any errors. already fixed?19:36
dvdkwpwrak: but liballegro's drivers really implement an extremely productive API19:36
dvdkjust test for stuff like key[KEY_LCONTROL] to see whether a key is currently pressed.  no limits for multiple keypresses (other than what the hardware enforces)19:37
wpwrakdvdk: (tuxbrain's page) the prices i the shop still don't seem to indicate the tax/export status19:53
wpwrak(liballegro) sounds nice :)19:59
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: ase: fix handling detection of number keys for zoom, ignore 'Fn' (LCONTROL) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/33eec1c20:10
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: liballegro: make the fbcon fixes really water-tight (fix really all cases). http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a82661f20:15
whooohi, I'm getting alot of illegal instructions and segfaults when trying to when trying to running debootstrap in a debian chroot on the nanonote, what could be the reason, problems with the FPU emulator?20:16
dvdkwhoo: hmm, did the last kernel drop FPU emulation support?20:36
whooodvdk: don't think so20:39
dvdkwhooo: i once installed debian via debian-installer in chroot without problems.  very long time ago, though20:40
dvdkwhooo: which debian suite are you using?20:40
dvdkwhooo: setup the chroot correctly?  mounting /proc etc?20:40
whoootried wheezy and sid20:41
whooowell, no, not really, let me try it20:41
whoooneither proc or sysfs seemed to help, then there is that if I run the command a couple of times, it works20:43
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: config.full_system (on trunk): add liballegro, alex4 and ASE (aseprite) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f0b4b1920:46
dvdkwhooo: very strange indeed20:46
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: config.full_system (on trunk): enable libdumb, needed by alex4 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a84f7d320:48
dvdkwhooo: i think you should report your problem to the mailinglist, with a few logs and the correct krnel version.  20:57
dvdk(uname -a)20:57
whooothe issues one?20:58
dvdkno, just the one (and only :) mailinglist http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/mailman/listinfo/discussion20:59
whooook20:59
wpwrakrejon: FYI: i added a warning at the beginning of the ben-wpan wiki page that it's still not quite clean21:22
dvdkwpwrak: just in time, just noticed how full of information the ben_wpan page was and submitted it to ycombinator21:23
dvdkhttp://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=266332721:23
rejonok wpwrak 21:24
wpwrakrejon: how do you like my rants ? :-)21:25
rejonhahaha, they are great21:25
rejoni tried to clean them up :)21:25
dvdkah *.163.94 that's you21:25
wpwrakdvdk: yeah, lots of information but also quite a bit of inconsistency. e.g., the "parent-free" meme still floats around.21:25
rejoni've been working on this today: http://acawiki.org/AcaWiki:PressRelease-2011-06-1621:26
wpwrakrejon: *grin*21:26
dvdk'_parent_ free' ? rofl21:26
dvdkwpwrak: i find this wiki page much better than any /. article could ever be :)21:26
rejonshould have a rant off between wpwrak and wolfspraul21:27
wpwrakdvdk: err ... that may actually be easier ;-)21:27
wpwrakrejon: (acawiki) sounds like a BIG undertaking :)21:27
rejonall worthy projects are :)21:28
rejonits contract for fabricatorz21:28
rejonbut also good project21:28
rejoni see the path in a lot of these projects, just comes down to time and money :)21:28
wpwrakrejon: we should just get over with it and print our own money ;-)21:30
rejonask wolfspraul about bitcoin ;)21:31
rejonwe are definitely generating value in one domain ;)21:31
wpwrakrejon: naw, nothing as complicated as bitcoin. issue "rejon's legal tender, one unit, serial 1/1000" and digitally sign it. done. you've created a unique "coin".21:32
wpwrakrejon: and it's a well-defined quantity. then it all depends on why accepts it and who not. having some currencies declines is perfectly normal. try buying a train ticket in europe with yen :)21:33
wpwrakdeclineD21:33
dvdkgood night21:35
wpwrakrejon: so it's all a question of convincing people that your currency actually has value and that its value will stay roughly the same or maybe increase. if it promises to drop, people will flee the currency, as they do with state-issued currencies. there's really no difference.21:35
mthdo the NN distros use Dropbear? if so, are you happy with it?22:45
mthDingux uses telnetd at the moment, but we might want to switch to an SSH server instead22:46
wpwrakmth: yes, it uses dropbear. i hate dropbear. learned to hate it at openmoko, when trying to write non-trivial scripts that would function with it predictably. openssh. there can only be one.23:03
mthis the memory overhead of openssh not too much for a 32MB machine?23:04
wpwrakdunno. didn't try to write on-trivial scripts on the ben yet, so i haven't ended my suffering yet :)23:06
wpwrakmth: but i can't really imagine that it could overwhelm the machine. maybe some space-starved 8 MB system.23:07
mththe Dingoo has 32MB (some have 64MB), but SSH would be used for debugging and the program being debugged might take up a lot of space23:07
rohdropbear works.23:08
mthwe do have zram swap though, so effectively we have a bit more than 32MB to use23:08
rohif you need key auth and or x-forwards, key management, scp, sftp... replace it with openssh. not much of a choice23:08
mthkey auth is a must: I don't want to have to type my password every time23:09
rohalso openssh isnt that huge.23:09
rohleave away other senseless crap like games ;)23:09
mtheh, games and emulators are 80% of what the Dingoo is used for23:10
rohmeh23:11
rohuh.. dropbear supposedly can handle keys.. thats new to me23:11
wpwrakdropbear has key auth. it's just different from openssh's (different file locations)23:11
wpwrakthe problem are more subtle things. e.g., when it tries from the terminal or how it passes the exit code.23:12
mththe main use is a developer being able to log in and view a log file or run gdb or strace23:13
wpwrakroh: ssh ben 'cat >>/etc/dropbear/authorized_keys' <~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub23:13
mthI don't expect very complex scripting to be done, although you never know23:13
wpwrakmth: things always get more complex, never simpler ;-)23:14
mthyep :)23:14
mthalthough the main thing right now is whether we should switch away from telnetd23:14
mthI guess switching from Dropbear to OpenSSH later would have a much smaller impact23:15
wpwrakmth: that's an easy one: YES ;-) you should have done that some 1-2 decades ago :)23:15
rohwpwrak: whatabork23:15
wpwrakroh: mh ?23:15
mthmost people don't put their Dingoo on a routable IP address, so the danger isn't too large, but it's still not good23:16
rohwpwrak: well .. /etc often isnt writeable on such systems but only has a few symlinks to a /var that is.23:16
wpwrakmth: yup. just a bad habit some old folks used to have. like chewing tobacco :)23:16
mthby the way, currently the Dingoo runs a DHCP daemon to give the PC an IP address23:17
wpwrakroh: well, that's how it works on the ben (openwrt and jlime). ymmv :)23:17
mthwe could use link-local addresses instead (cleanly in IPv6 or hackish in IPv4 with 169.254.x.x)23:18
mthbut then how would the user know which IP address to connect to?23:18
wpwrakmth: now you just need a persistent and pre-loaded web cache and you don't even need that internet access :)23:18
mthI guess we could make an offline wikipedia package23:18
mththat should keep people busy for a while, they don't even notice they don't have the whole internet :)23:18
wpwrakmake a google and facebook "currently out of order - please come back later" page and it may take people a while to notice ;-)23:19
mthI guess zeroconf could be used to advertise services on a link-local address, but avahi does not seem to be very lean (or am I mistaken?) and there aren't a lot of clients with zeroconf support except from Apple23:24
rohmth: lean?23:25
rohmth: basically everything which uses mdns and not an apple product uses, links against or communicates wit avahi (e.g. via dbus) to make things work.23:25
mthroh: I mean that avahi + dependencies would have a rather high memory footprint23:29
mthfor an embedded device23:29
mthbut I didn't actually test it, so I could be mistaken23:29
rohmth: not really. you can compile it quite minimal.23:29
mthok23:29
rohi have it on my opentwrt router.23:29
rohand all other implementations are much worse, more buggy and not smaller afaik.23:30
roheven apple people started noting that its much more useable than their own libs23:30
rohi use it as an mdns-repeater on my router23:30
rohwifi and wired lan are different ethernet segments23:30
mthI too, but by router is a PC with a Geode processor, so not in the same category as a mobile device23:31
mthbut is there support for zeroconf in command line apps or only in GUI apps?23:32
mthcould I do "ssh dingoo" for example if the Dingoo would advertise its sshd service?23:32
rohdingoo.local 23:37
rohusually one puts the mdns stuff behind .local23:37
roh/etc/nsswitch.conf has23:38
rohhosts:          files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns mdns423:38
rohin it on ubuntu23:38
mthah, that's interesting23:40
mthon openSUSE it's like this:23:41
mthhosts:          files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns23:41
mthso only the minimal variant23:41
mthwould that be enough?23:41
rohno clue. you need to read the docs there23:41
mthok23:42
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