#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-06-13

tuxbrainwpwrak: have you see the pictures of atben/atusb? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN#First_Batch00:17
wpwraktuxbrain: yeah, great ! nice army of boards :)00:18
tuxbrainI have just finished to grind 135 atben and 120 atusb.... my thumb is aching like hel00:19
wpwraktomorrow the testing ?00:19
tuxbraintomorrow early morning I will flash all the atusb first00:19
tuxbrainand then round of testing00:19
wpwrakperfect. note that the boot.hex i mentioned yesterday in irc wasn't correct (that file doesn't exist). so please get the version mentioned in my mail to the list.00:20
wpwrakalso,please pull the latest version of the scripts in ben-wpan/prod/. then there should be no more problems with the gpio test. unless i messed up something else ;-)00:21
tuxbrain:) , gostbuster!!!!00:21
wpwrakyeah, sorry about the P_ON test. that's what i get for not reading the manual carefully enough :-(00:22
wpwrakat least you're now ready for the turing test :)00:23
tuxbraindon't worry dude, that's is what test are for ,even to detect mistakes in the test :)00:23
wpwrakor, in case the machines take over, the AI test ;-))00:23
wpwrak(mistakes in the test) yeah,that's the hidden cost of not having a prototype run before "mass production"00:24
wpwrakkiller robot: "are you a carbon-based lifeform ?"00:25
wpwraktuxbrain: "HHHHoHxH.HxHxHxHh.ohzoHoHH"00:25
wpwrakkiller robot: "hail, brother !" (walks away, to kill your neighbours)00:25
tuxbraincommon you and me know this is just a prototype run :) the mass prod will come when we pass the 10.000 units month :)00:25
wpwrakhehe ;-)00:26
wpwrakgot any pre-orders yet ?00:26
tuxbrainkiller robot: "are you a carbon-based lifeform ?" 02:2500:27
tuxbraintuxbrain: "HHHHoHxH.HxHxHxHh.ohzoHoHHkiller robot: Motherfu..... GPIO error exit 100:27
wpwrakeven better !now you can safe the world ;-))00:28
tuxbrainYes our fan of the Check republic (Jiri I love you) has order a two pair of each00:29
wpwrakin fact, this one should be a "killer sequence": atrf-gpio HHHH1H0.HHHHHHHHZ.z1HHHHHH delay=100000:29
wpwrak(puts the transceiver into sleep mode. this means that it stops the clock. then the MCU is stopped too. power-cycle time ;-)00:30
tuxbrainbut I have not anounce it any place yet, until at least I have a yield of 50 units of each I will not start annoy anyone but you00:30
wpwrak(jiri) yeah !! :)00:30
wpwrakhehe :)00:30
wpwrakgot atrf-xtal, you'll need your dual core. hope that works for your logistics.00:31
tuxbrainI have come back home, I have  arrived an pair of hours ago (the time I have used to grind atusb) I will go to sleep now to have enough estamina to wake in a four hours or so to start flashing00:32
wpwrakoh great. then you have everything you need at hand00:33
tuxbrainatusb were easy to grind than atben, but my (poor) thumb will hate me for a week, I think he is on strike of sms00:34
tuxbrainthere must be a better non harming way to grind the boards ....00:35
wpwrakyeah, atusb are comparably large and have a simple shape. atben has none of this ;-)00:36
tuxbrainI can't imagine me doing so for 500 units of each.... 00:37
wpwraki think the proper process is to have a kind of "guillotine"00:37
tuxbrainops my thumb has start running out of my hand on read the avobe sentence00:37
wpwrakbut maybe laser-cutting could be an option, too00:37
tuxbrainand a dremel?00:38
tuxbrainmaybe too dangerouse due it can acidentally reshape the board , isn't it? 00:39
wpwrakuh sure, that'll work too00:39
wpwrakyou have a little bit of tolerance in case you cut into the board00:39
tuxbrainguillotine mabe ok with atusb, but totally no go for atben00:40
tuxbrainso laser cutting or dremel00:40
wpwrakdunno. these guillotines may be shaped for the board they cut00:40
wpwrakdremel should be quite okay for this sort of work, if you get the flexible axis, it's also easy to handle.00:41
tuxbrainbut .. making a mould or so not sound too cheap,even laser cutting don't sound cheap either00:42
wpwraklaser cutting should be cheap if you have the infrastructure. otherwise, you have to pay someone to convert things for their machine, s&h overhead, and so on.00:46
tuxbrainwell dudes time to some sleep, enjoy the pics of the wireless revolution just a few steps away, you have asked for it, tuxbrain will bring it to you, small, beauty and above all this  tons of freedom, WPAN is here to stay, enjoy and happy hacking. Good night00:51
wpwrakhappy dreams ! ;-)00:51
kristianpaulxiangfu: hi00:51
kristianpaulxiangfu: the fix you did in rtems about the c heap or something, will now allow me to use the rtems fs as if were a ramdisk?00:55
kristianpauli'll just create just one file00:55
kristianpaulso i dont need a full capable fs00:55
kristianpauls/file/big file (90Mb)00:55
rohtuxbrain_away: nice documentation on your blog (arduino)01:01
xiangfukristianpaul:one thing I am not sure is do we really have a RAMDISK in flickernoise?01:11
xiangfukristianpaul: seems there is just IMFS, no ramdisk.01:11
rohwow. these efika seem nice. wannatry01:12
xiangfukristianpaul: but we do have >100MB in IMFS.01:12
kristianpaulxiangfu: (>100MB in IMFS) sounds great !01:18
kristianpaulxiangfu: did you already tested?01:19
Action: kristianpaul too lazy now to re-compile rtems again..01:19
kristianpaulat least i have a good reason for :-)01:19
kristianpaulxiangfu: because as you may remenber last time i tried to save a file <4Mb in the IMFS rtems just crashed..01:20
kristianpaulxiangfu: (real ramdisk) nope just the /ramdisk folder name ;)01:21
xiangfukristianpaul: just tried copy file by FTP, failed with "netout: Broken pipe"01:37
kristianpaulxiangfu: how big was the file?01:38
xiangfutested with 5MB and 40MB. all failed. 01:38
xiangfunow I am testing with memcards.01:38
kristianpaulbut there is memcard write support already?01:38
kristianpaulbut anyway, seems implement ramdisk is the way to go01:39
xiangfukristianpaul: "./4.6MB.AVI: No space left on device" 01:39
xiangfukristianpaul: I am copy file from memcard to /ramdisk. 01:40
kristianpauli see01:40
xiangfuafter error, the target file size is 432537601:41
xiangfu4.125MB 01:41
xiangfukristianpaul: (implement ramdisk is the way to go) yes.01:41
antoni`hi, how long the battery last in nanonote?01:43
kristianpaulantoni`: it may varie01:48
kristianpaulie, i had listen to music upto 3 hours01:49
kristianpaul"I got a 10.8 hours of battery in a overnight idle run" <- http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Battery_Monitoring01:51
antoni`Do you know this proyect, it is similar to nanonote but it has wifi integrated:01:57
antoni`and the estimated battery life is between 15-20 hours01:58
kristianpaullooks interesting01:59
antoni`yes, for now it is ot available to buy01:59
kristianpauldespite, some hw specs are different02:00
kristianpauland surelly project goals02:00
kristianpaullet me ask you antoni` , there are avaliable source code (in diferent forms) for this device you pointed?02:01
kristianpaulruns linux and is completely open source saids02:02
antoni`yes, it will be based in a custom Gnu/Linux distro02:03
kristianpaulantoni`: already pre-order yours?02:04
kristianpaullooks very focused on math, interesting02:06
antoni`kristianpaul: They are not accepting pre-orders for now02:09
wolfspraulantoni`: that's a good sign! :-)02:13
wolfspraulpre-order = fail, almost always02:13
wolfspraulI need to check out the site a bit more to understand what it is, thanks a lot for posting the link!02:13
wolfspraulI don't think it has much to do with copyleft hardware, but it's a cool little device.02:17
wolfspraulmath and music are two areas where the Ben NanoNote is also quite nice already, and will get better. So I can definitely see their point.02:17
wolfspraulI hope they won't give up on manufacturing one day and end their life as an iPhone/iPad app :-)02:18
antoni`wolfspraul: what math packages are available in nanonote?02:19
wolfspraula whole bunch, one sec I check if I can quickly find a list02:20
wolfspraulGNU Octave02:21
kristianpaulgnuplot too02:21
antoni`lacks maxima02:21
antoni`well, is a pretty decent math machine02:22
antoni`also it has Emacs Advanced Desk Calculator02:25
antoni`built in Gnu Emacs02:25
wolfspraulyou mean the NanoNote?02:27
wolfspraulI don't even know, but yes, David did a lot of work to get emacs going well02:27
kristianpaulas and off-topic to this chat, we need an alarm clock feature that uses the build-n buzzer ! :-)02:28
wolfspraulthat's a big 'leap of faith' for me to trust a device to be my alarm clock :-)02:31
wolfspraulmost of the time I sleep until I wake up, but if I do need an alarm it's typically serious, like an early morning flight or so02:32
wolfspraulright now I'm not sure whether I would trust my little Nano :-)02:32
wolfspraulhe he02:32
wolfspraulmaybe not02:32
wolfspraulbut it's a very worthy goal to go after02:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: maybe it's time to get serious and stop selling unreliable crap then ;-))02:34
wolfspraulnah I'm just very protective of the quality of my sleep02:36
wolfspraulyou would probably want a rock-solid suspend too for this02:37
wolfspraulthen wakeup from suspend on the alarm02:37
wpwrakwith wpan, we could make the ben send out a heartbeat. other stations could listen and raise an alarm in the ben stops sending. that ought the be bullet-proof ;-)02:37
wolfspraullast I heard there were still some issues being in suspend for hours, sometimes it wouldn't wake up anymore. Not sure whether that's fixed or not.02:37
wpwraks/the be/to be/02:37
wpwrakyeah, the mystery suspend failure. wonder what it is. seems that there's a work-around for it, though.02:38
DocScrutinizerhey, we had that on GTA02 as well 04:01
Action: DocScrutinizer bets on spurious IRQ that confuse things04:02
wpwraksigh. when will people ever learn how to do locking ...04:19
Action: wpwrak is cleaning up the at86rf230 kernel driver. it's quite competently done, but still ...04:24
DocScrutinizerlocking? useless cruft! WFM without ;-P04:57
wpwrakyeah. some under-do it some over-do it ... a spinlock plus a flag to protect a sequence that's already guaranteed by the general flow of execution ...04:58
DocScrutinizersppinlock the kernel, so you're on the safe side of fence :->04:59
wpwrakthe  only problem with such things is that you can't help but wonder what demons the author did intend to banish.05:00
wpwrak(spinlock = safe) well, sometimes ... ;-)05:00
DocScrutinizerif ever devel would learn to handle IRQs correctly, they'd not need so many mutex and locks and semaphors and whatnot05:01
DocScrutinizerbut for that you need to understand how your hw and CPU is handling IRQ05:02
Action: DocScrutinizer still giggling about that "I changed it from edge to level and it caused kernel freezes" OWTTE05:03
DocScrutinizerthe S3C24xx generic IRQ handler is abysmal05:04
DocScrutinizera chimera of edge triggered and polling the GPIO - omfg :-O05:04
DocScrutinizerI really wonder what's so difficult to get this right05:08
DocScrutinizerlevel triggered is for "intelligent" and possibly IRQ-sharing peripherals, while you use edge (and only *one* of rising/falling edge) for dumb peripherals that mustn't share IRQ line and can't get told to reset their own IRQ output05:10
DocScrutinizerso for those dumb periph you don't have to wait until the IRQ goes down again, after you serviced the rising edge05:11
DocScrutinizerfor smart periph you poll all those that share the IRQ line and tell the one (or two, or many) that admits to have triggered the IRQ that they may reset it now please. When you exit IRQ-handler you got either all periph serviced, or there's again a new one and you re-enter the irq-handler as soon as you leave it and enable level-triggered IRQ again on leaving05:15
DocScrutinizerthere's definitely no use in triggering on both edges and then in handler poll the IRQ line to find out about the level05:16
DocScrutinizernevertheless that's exactly what's done on GTA0205:17
qi-botThe build has FAILED, \ 05:17
DocScrutinizerand I bet it is like this to this very day05:31
DocScrutinizerqi-bot: say hi kyak05:33
kyakheh :)05:36
DocScrutinizerahh, just in case it wasn't clear: all this obviously doesn't need any locks as far as it goes, as the CPU will disable IRQ when they shoot (otherwise the IRQ handler never got beyond first opcode) and you usually got a proper IRQ hierarchy where it's clearly defined which higher-prio IRQ may interrupt the handler of lower-prio IRQs, so there's no issue with re-entrance or circle calls either05:45
DocScrutinizerdepending on CPU architecture there's either a dedicated reti opcode that re-enables IRQ while same moment leaving the handler (pop pc), or you got clear advice how to use a sequence of opcodes to achive same purpose (as e.g the re-enabling of IRQ only takes effect 2 opcode fetches after execution)05:49
DocScrutinizeranother theoretically possible architecture of CPU would set a "breakpoint" to the opcode addr following the one where the IRQ happened (i.E to the location which return addr pushed on stack points at), and would enable IRQ on execution of this addr&opcode. I'm not aware of such architecture though05:55
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: what's the mechanism that signals activatio from a handler to a worker thread, and how is it handled to get the reset of that semaphore(?) conflict-free from interference by the handler? do you block the IRQ-handler (or the IRQ itself) for that short moment?06:05
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: within the irq handler, the infrastructure protects you. then you can disable the interrupt, schedule the worker, then re-enable when done in the worker.06:07
DocScrutinizerwhat? you re-enable the IRQ-handler in the worker-thread?06:08
wpwrakyup. clean and easy06:08
wpwrakif that's not fast enough, you have to process at least part of it in the irq handler. maybe not have a worker at all.06:09
DocScrutinizernah, you have a disabled IRQ-handler for arbitrary eternities06:10
wpwrakyou also have tasklets as an intermediate solution. or bottom-half handlers, if you want.06:10
wpwrak(but you need a pretty good reason for the latter :)06:10
DocScrutinizerNFC about that, always thought bottom-half == worker-thread06:11
DocScrutinizerfor the semaphore thing: you probably get a clean problem-free interface with a fifo06:12
DocScrutinizeras the IRQ handler doesn't need to know about worker thread usually06:12
DocScrutinizerso if you get a ringbuffer (e.g. of timestamps) then you IRQ-handler can run ahead of worker-thead as many events as size of that ringbuffer06:13
wpwrakBH are similar to tasklets. neither can sleep. workers can.06:14
wpwrakerr, what semaphore thing ? i did't understand the issue06:15
DocScrutinizerthat's what's my concern: your handler is deactivated to service next IRQ until worker is eventually awaking again and completing its thing06:15
DocScrutinizer(issue) probably there's been none first instance06:16
DocScrutinizerif there's anything the handler needs to know about from timeshare-land, then it probably better done that task itself instead of waiting fro worker to accomplish it06:17
wpwrakthe handler is disabled but you already know that you have to do some work. if you didn't do everything, then you get another interrupt when re-enabling, if level-triggered. if edge-triggered, you re-enable before checking the status. if you can't check the status, well ... to be honest, burn that hardware and its designer with it ;-)06:18
DocScrutinizerwhat is "check status"?06:19
wpwrakif an interrupt handler/BH/tasklet needs to call anything that can sleep, it is in trouble. that's why we have workqueues. if the standard workqueue is too slow, you're free to create your own and tweak with scheduler settings. and yes, you can give it real-time priority.06:20
wpwrakusually the "interrupts pending" register06:20
wpwrakor whatever you have in your hardware06:20
DocScrutinizerhmm, you typically don't check that at all06:21
wpwrakyou also have atomic operations, which can help to avoid spinlocks06:21
DocScrutinizerthat's my point06:21
wpwrakmost drivers to, because many devices have multiple internal interrupt sources06:21
DocScrutinizerRETI is such an atomic operation06:22
DocScrutinizerthat's what I call servicing the smart peripheral06:22
wpwraki means atomic increment, decrement, increment if non-zero, etc.06:22
wpwrakerr. decrement if non-zero. don't think we have increment if NZ :)06:23
DocScrutinizerif multiple such smart periphs share an IRQ line, then you need to use level IRQ trigger, and service all periph that share this IRQ hw line06:23
wpwraksome of them also return a status. so you can have an atomic if (non-zero) decrement; else do something;06:23
DocScrutinizerthat's even better than my suggested ringbuffer06:24
DocScrutinizerand basically exactly my "semaphore(?)"06:24
wpwrakyes, if you have multiple peripherals sharing a single line, then too. but also many peripherals share the device's single external interrupt among many internal sources.06:24
DocScrutinizersure, but the scheme is unaffected the same nevertheless06:25
wpwrakand don't forget SMP. you don't only have preemption but real concurrency to worry about. for SMP, you get a bunch of additional concepts. e.g., per-cpu variables, etc.06:26
DocScrutinizeron a logical interrupt you need to service (check) all the possible sources06:26
DocScrutinizeryou do this in the IRQ-handler06:26
wpwrakat least the ones that can contribute to the interrupt. if you mask them, you may not need to check them :)06:26
wpwrakthat's optional06:27
DocScrutinizerfor each detected periph asking for service the handler schedules some worker or similr06:27
DocScrutinizerthat's why I said "possible"06:27
wpwrakusually too complex. just gets you races.06:27
DocScrutinizerpossible like in "enabled"06:27
wpwrakdo one thread and handle one after the other. try to do everything in that thread. voila - no sharing.06:28
DocScrutinizeraaah sure, you simply exit handler after first periph serviced, if there's another you'll catch it on re-IRQ06:29
wpwrakyou may even be faster than with a horde of concurrently scheduled threads fighting for shared resources :)06:29
wpwrakyou're also allowed to use a loop ;-)06:29
wpwrakif you feel really bad about looping, yield() :)06:29
DocScrutinizeryou're talking bout the workers06:30
DocScrutinizeryeah, that's baring topic right now for me06:30
wpwrakyeah. it's all pretty basic :)06:30
DocScrutinizerI'm sparring the handlers ATM06:30
DocScrutinizerI don't get the weird stuff I seen for gta02 quite some time back06:31
DocScrutinizerI could imagine it all works on mere incidence there, just because timings are lucky etc06:32
DocScrutinizerthat's why I was about to sort my own thoughts first06:33
DocScrutinizerand my own knowledge always been you git to re-enable the IRQ on leaving the IRQ handler06:35
DocScrutinizeras any worker might get delayed, stopped or even canceled for arbitrary reasons06:36
wpwrakgrmbl. ^W does not delete a word ...06:36
DocScrutinizeronly in shell06:37
wpwrakenable on return is what the hw usually does06:37
DocScrutinizereven only in some shells, with some particular configs06:37
wpwrakwhat you can do is disable_irq_nosync in the irq handler, then enable_irq when you've handled it06:37
DocScrutinizerRETI, exactly06:37
wpwrakif something kills your worker, you're in trouble anyway :)06:37
DocScrutinizernot always06:38
DocScrutinizerthere might be cases06:38
wpwrakwell, if you insist of firing downward, move your feet away ;-)06:39
DocScrutinizerif you don't mess with re-enabling the IRQ in worker, you can restart it anyway06:39
DocScrutinizerthe handler won't mind06:39
wpwrakthis disable/enable split is a common and simple arrangement. if you need something more complex, you have to figure out a logic that works for you.06:39
DocScrutinizerthe logic is RETI, as you said a few lines up06:40
wpwrakhint: whenever i see a complex synchronization/locking/etc. arrangement, there's usually a more simple and considerably more correct one that can replace it ;-)06:40
DocScrutinizerand it's not more complex but rather more clean and simple06:41
wpwrakenable_irq != reti06:41
wpwrakenable_irq enables a specific interrupt. not to be confused with disabling interrupts globally or on your core.06:41
DocScrutinizerwell, the basic setup&enabling of the IRQ at large is sth usually only done once06:41
wpwraksetup yes. enabling/disabling not necessarily. see above :)06:42
DocScrutinizerdisabling IRQ-handling on a global scale is sth you better not even think about06:42
DocScrutinizeraah well, you mean I service the periph from worker. Yes then you probably might want to disable that particular IRQ on a sw level until your worker serviced the periph and git the hw line reset06:44
DocScrutinizerok, now we're on same page again06:45
DocScrutinizerall only applicable for level triggering though06:47
DocScrutinizerfor edge you run into endless amount of trouble on several points of this scheme06:48
wpwrakwhy ?06:49
DocScrutinizerthat's another argument why I got goose pimples when reading the gta02 IRQ src06:49
DocScrutinizer(why?) because you can miss IRQs06:49
wpwrakas long as you can find out what needs servicing, you can lose edges. you just need to re-enable _before_ checking what needs serviving06:49
DocScrutinizeryou can miss handler calls on "expired" IRQs06:50
wpwrakworst-case, you get an edge, schedule the worker again while the worker is still running and processing the event that was just signaled. usually not a problem.06:50
wpwrakyou only run into a problem if handling the event itself has a deadline you're missing. but that doesn't depend on edge vs. level. and in such cases, you probably don't want to use a worker.06:52
DocScrutinizernope, worst case you service the periph, it triggers again, and only then you re-enable the IRQ, which will leave your IRQ unnoticed (as it's edge) and thus periph unserviced and you never again get a new IRQ06:52
wpwrakagain, your general design must be suitable for handling the problem. edge vs. level and all this is secondary.06:52
wpwrakread what i wrote above: you re-enable before you check what needs handling06:53
DocScrutinizerbut... wasn't there a reason we didn't want to do that and moved the enabling of IRQ to worker for this reason06:54
DocScrutinizerwhen you said "IRQ enabled in worker" then I got "at end of worker, after servicing periph"06:55
DocScrutinizernow you say you enable it prior to servicing periph06:56
DocScrutinizerNB servicing periph and resetting the IRQ in periph is usually atomic06:56
DocScrutinizermaybe not usually but often06:56
wpwrakat end of worker for level-triggered. before checking what's pending for edge-triggered.06:57
DocScrutinizerI.E. often readin a register gives indication if IRQ been set and also resets it same time06:58
wpwrakif you really want to, you can also enable before checking for level. it's just less efficient.06:58
DocScrutinizeryes, that makes sense, as for edge triggered you got no way to reset the periph06:58
DocScrutinizerif you enable before servicing the periph for level, you'll get the above quoted "kernel freeze"06:59
DocScrutinizeraka endless loop06:59
wpwrakas usual, that depends :) besides, nowadays, i don't seem to see a lot of edge-triggered anyway06:59
DocScrutinizeredge is out since 198407:00
DocScrutinizeronly gta02 using it07:00
wpwrak(enable before servicing) no, you would call the handler, the handler would schedule you again, but you wouldn't enter the handler yet another time, because you'll have serviced the interrupt eventually07:01
DocScrutinizeryou're using edge *maybe* for dumb IRQ sources like clocks etc, that can not get reset. And even then mainly for efficiency/performance reasons07:01
DocScrutinizer(ena beore) yeah that's where devels stert to plaster their code with spinlocks/mutex/whatnot ;-D07:02
wpwraknaw, they do this for many other wrong reasons already ;-)07:03
DocScrutinizerthanks for the nice chat, have to take a nap07:03
wpwrakyou just have to be careful that you enable as many times as you disable07:04
wpwrakuninterrupted dreams ! :)07:04
DocScrutinizerbtw you can not share IRQ line for edge, for obvious reasons07:30
DocScrutinizerso there are no multiple sources for edge that would need time consuming talk to periph07:30
DocScrutinizerso handler can do the "check" - no need to do it in worker07:31
DocScrutinizeralso you obvviously don't need and can not disabled IRQ for edge. At least in a sense we used that term above and for the purpose assumed07:31
DocScrutinizerso the whole discussion is moot when it comes to using edge with that complex scheme07:32
DocScrutinizergo for level and all ok, re-enable IRQ at end of perip-servicing demuxing worker07:33
DocScrutinizeruse edge and you're doomed07:33
DocScrutinizerunless it's a 1000Hz clock generator that needs a handler to count up a longint and thus has a execution time <<< the IRQ period07:34
DocScrutinizerthose typically don't need any workers at all07:34
DocScrutinizeralso don't need IRQ disabling in sw then, RETI wil do to avoid reentrance when clock is faster than CPU07:35
DocScrutinizerback to bed07:36
LunaFrizzleHi all !10:31
vladkorotnevhello everyone :)10:43
vladkorotnevis it possible to install Milkymist's Flickernoise program on a usual Linux computer?10:44
vladkorotnevWith re-building of course :P10:44
kristianpaulvladkorotnev: i think yes, but you can ask in #milkymist too 10:47
kristianpaulvladkorotnev: rtems is ported to i386, so thats no the problem10:48
vladkorotnevkristianpaul: I asked @Milkymist on twitter and got a reply: @vladkorotnev yes, JFDI.10:48
vladkorotnevWhat is JFDI?10:48
vladkorotnevand btw, will it work on Debian without X?10:48
kristianpaulvladkorotnev: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=JFDI10:49
kristianpaulbut hey10:49
vladkorotnevkristianpaul: lol, thanks, I thought it was some kind of software :)10:49
kristianpaulwhy you need all this trouble, if milkdrop can be run as an app inside your os10:50
kristianpaulhe, mee too10:50
vladkorotnevkristianpaul: milk drop is windows only AFAIK10:50
vladkorotnevand I have two computers that are powerful enough for VJing10:51
vladkorotnevone is a Acer half-laptop with Debian+Win7+MacOSX10:51
vladkorotnevsecond is a Macbook pro10:51
vladkorotnevbut I hate Win710:51
kristianpaulprojectm.sourceforge.net ?10:53
vladkorotnevkristianpaul: already know it and idk why, but i don't like it10:55
vladkorotnevum, I found Flickernoise build instructions, but will they build for x86 or FPGA or such?10:57
kristianpaulfor lm3210:59
kristianpaullattice mico 32 is the cpu implemnted on the fpga plus other cores10:59
kristianpaul(will they build) i dont bet11:00
kristianpaulas i relly of custom cores for hw accelatarion not present in the rtmes for x8611:00
vladkorotnevkristianpaul: then I need to find a way to build it on x86 for x86...11:00
kristianpaulyes vladkorotnev 11:01
vladkorotnevum, if I have a pc that's powerful enough, will QEMU (with KVM) be sufficient? http://www.milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Using_QEMU ;)11:03
kristianpaulthats another way indeed11:04
vladkorotnevkristianpaul: this QEMU has Cocoa so it may be able to run on my Mac ;P11:06
vladkorotnevok, i have to reboot to my devenv os, see ya later guys11:11
Fusinhi qiots11:15
Fusinand qiotines ;)11:15
Fusin(not to compare with guillotines!)11:15
qi-bot[commit] David K├╝hling: new package: ASE: allegro sprite editor, a generic drawing and animation program http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/682984011:25
kyakdvdk: hi! have you noticed some pitfalls with liballegro in backfire and plplot in trunk?11:26
kyaki.e. compilation issues11:26
dvdkkyak: no ?11:27
dvdkkyak: wrt backfire: didn't touch this at all, it should be broken i guess.  too lazy backporting my changes11:27
kyakhere and here :)11:27
dvdkplplot in trunk: fixd that yesterday!?11:27
kyakdvdk: you shouldn't have commited liballegro to backfire then?11:28
dvdkkyka: it's just an ancient version in backfire.  don't know who put that in config.full_system.  not me (?)11:28
kyaknot config.full_system... but openwrt-packages/master11:28
kyakregarding plplot, seems it isn't fixed11:29
vladkorotnevhello everyone, I'm back11:29
vladkorotnevgot this problem when trying to run flickernoise in qemu: http://pastie.org/206040611:30
dvdkkyak: first things first :)11:30
dvdkkyak: ok, so why is allegro built in trunk?  when it's not in config.full_system?11:31
dvdki.e. backfire11:31
dvdkif there are no future releases of nanonote sw for backfire, let's just kick out allegro from backfire, if it makes problem??11:34
kyakdvdk: liballegro builds in backfire (i.e. master) because there is CONFIG_ALL11:35
dvdkkyak: is there any need to continue building for backfire at all?11:36
kyakto avoid this (because backfire not tested/not maintained anymore) you should commit to trunk only11:36
kyaknot to master11:36
dvdkkyak: i _am_ only committing to trunk anyway.  just bits of allegro are in backfire, because i started that port, a few days before the trunk transition11:36
kyakas xiangfu said, that was the last backfire image, so i guess no11:36
dvdkwrt plplot, will have to look at the build log.  it builds fine here.11:37
dvdkkyak: you committed some 'keyboard mouse' stuff a while back.  11:38
dvdkhow much work is required to make this work?11:38
kyakshould we remove some commits from top of master?11:39
kyakto keep it compilable when it is renamed to backfire?11:39
kyakdvdk: 'opkg install keymouse', this much :)11:39
dvdkthat's a daemon?  which keys does it use?11:41
kyakit's pretty much outdated though11:42
kyak/etc/init.d/keymouse start should be enough11:43
kyak(it's not autostarted because most of the times i find it annoyying)11:43
dvdkkyak: not bad11:43
dvdkit does work for ASE (drawing program, just committed), HOWEVER:11:43
dvdkit does not remove the fn+keys from the keys that ASE sees, so i have duplicate key actions: mouse moves, still direction keys are pressed, so menu focus moves around.  hmm11:44
kyakexactly the thing that annoys me11:45
dvdklooks like it always presses the button?11:46
dvdkuups, segmentation failt (ase).11:46
kyakkeyboard/mouse actions intersect11:46
dvdkhmm, then maybe just hack ase to implement its own kbd mouse  suppor-?11:46
kyakalways presses the button? what do you mean?11:46
dvdkhow do i click?11:47
kyakred+arrow -> move11:47
kyakfn+voldown -> left click11:47
kyakfn+volup -> right click11:47
dvdkhow does red change the keycode of arrow keys, i.e. what keys does it generate?11:47
kyakas far as i know, it doesn't change the code of arrow keys, it's a modifier11:48
kyakyou can see a keycode with "showkeys"11:49
dvdkmaybe just make ase ignore these11:49
dvdkit does not seem to modify the arrow keys at all11:50
kyakif ase has it's own bindings, maybe they can be altered11:50
dvdkkyak: but direction keys are so generic, we'd have to manually filter for !red11:51
dvdkor just ignore any key events if red?11:51
kyakdvdk: i'm going to try it now :) and alex4, too11:56
vladkorotnevcould anyone please send me Flickernoise kernel?11:58
kyakdvdk: any chance to disable sound in alex4?12:05
kyakase works unbelievably fast12:07
kyakmenus are much fast than in qt/gtk12:07
kyakuh, segfault :)12:08
dvdkkyak: happy debugging :)12:09
dvdkkyak: yeah, using a game library as drawing backend definitely speeds things up 12:09
dvdkkyak: what's the problem with sound?  think we can change the volume in alex4.cfg 12:11
kyakeverything is find with the sound, i just want to disable it :)12:11
dvdklook for the config file12:12
dvdkmay also try allegro-setup to change volume globally for allegro games, not sure though whether alex4 honours /etc/allegrorc12:12
Action: dvdk usually plugs in headphones to shut up the sound12:13
kyakdvdk: can't find alex4.conf12:25
kyakdvdk: heh, it's a little bit problematic to move cursor while pressed with keymouse :)12:29
Action: kyak away12:31
dvdkquestion about debugging: what's the right .config flag to set to compile programs with debug information, but not keep that debug information on the target (i.e. for remote debugging)13:17
xMffI usually do that on a case-by-case basis13:19
xMffadding  TARGET_CFLAGS += -ggdb313:20
xMffto the corresponding makefile13:20
dvdkxMff: set config_debug, now recompiling a single package, i now have -g3 set in cflags by default.  maybe that's going to do it.13:20
xMffbinaries are stripped shortly before they're put into the .ipk13:21
xMffso they should be unstripped in both build_dir and staging_dir/target-*/13:21
dvdkhmm, i also set config_gdb, however looks like that change isn't picked up (i.e. no gdb executable in the toolchain dir)13:22
dvdkdo i have to to toolchain/{clean,compile}?13:22
dvdkah, maybe make world is going to help13:22
xMfftoolchain/gdb/{compile,install} V=9913:22
tuxbrain_awaywpwrak: are your there?13:34
tuxbrainall atusb flashed, just two present problems, ones was unable to flash, the other even reflashing several times fails on enumeration13:35
wpwrakpretty good !13:36
tuxbrainI was starting test with a fresh prod and tools installed but when generate the profiles the stucked black window issue starts again :(13:37
tuxbrainmake spectrum13:37
wpwrakhmm. that would be "no interrupt"13:37
tuxbrainit not shows nothing but a ben.profile has been created 13:39
tuxbrainthe window doesn't show nothing, the ben.profiles is filled up to 26 lines13:40
wpwrakhas the spectrum worked before ?13:40
tuxbrainno sorry my fauls was filled from channel 11 to 2613:41
wpwrakgrmbl. my last remaining prototype is acting up :-( just let off some smoke. that can't be good ...13:41
wolfspraulcool tuxbrain is in the midst of the beauty of manufacturing13:43
wolfspraulis it worth to track down that problem or not?13:43
wolfspraulthat's the hardest decision to make, because behind something that looks small now, something much larger may lurk later13:44
wolfspraulon the other hand you need huge volumes to justify digging into any last weird thing that you see when you make something in the hundreds or more. it may be more economical to throw those beasts away and forget that you ever saw them :-)13:44
tuxbrainwpwrak: yes spectrum has worked on previous version of the tools/prod, but no I have redone all from scratch to be sure I'm using the lastest one13:45
wpwraktuxbrain: good. does this happen with multiple boards ?13:45
tuxbrainwolfspraul: for now just two of 120 :) I will go forward, I will send the faulty ones to werner to take a look13:46
wolfspraulyes but that is exactly my point13:46
wolfspraulyou will have this all the time in manufacturing13:46
wolfspraulwith every 200 nanos I make, I have one case that is just so off-chart it's mind boggling13:47
wolfspraulin most cases right now I decide to just discard them13:47
wolfspraulneed to be very practical in manufacturing13:47
wolfspraulI'm sure there are some very interesting discoveries to make with those units, but who cares... the world keeps turning.13:48
wolfspraulthe root cause will never be found, so what13:48
tuxbrainthis work ok:13:48
wolfspraulas long as the other 199 work, seriously nobody will care much. that's just how it is, and it's only natural. perfect is the enemy of good.13:48
tuxbrainatrf-path -g net:ben usb 10 | \13:48
tuxbrain                                            ../tools/atrf-path/genpathprof +5 +5 >usb.profile13:48
tuxbrainbut this not 13:49
tuxbrainatrf-path -g usb net:ben 10 | \13:49
tuxbrain  ../tools/atrf-path/genpathprof +5 +5 >ben.profile 13:49
wpwrakhmm. that atusb board passed the gpio test, right ?13:52
tuxbrainwpwrak: yes13:52
wpwrakand did you try another atusb as well, to see if it's just an unlucky board ?13:53
wpwrak(meanwhile, i'm trying to salvage my last prototype. seems that i shorted VBUS to GND. but i don't quite see how.)13:53
tuxbrainit fails on show the spectrum on make ben , and make spectrum in the atben part, sure is the atusb that is annoying13:54
wpwrak(that board was last reworked for current measurement, which didn't go very well (the rework, not the measurements). so it's been quite fragile since.)13:54
wpwrakyes, i think it's atusb. the "ben" part has an atusb sender an an atben receiver. the receiver seems to be okay, the sender not. it's the sender that has the ability to hang (while waiting for an interrupt)13:55
wpwrakmaybe power-cycle the board before trying the "make spectrum". could be that the gpio test leaves some confusion behind. it shouldn't, but ...13:56
tuxbraintested 5 more atusb all hangs make spectrum 13:58
tuxbrainall pass the other tests13:59
wpwrakif you comment out the spectrum test. do they pass ? (i.e., do they also pass receive/transmit ?)14:00
tuxbrainok gonna try14:00
tuxbrainnop receive fail :(14:02
tuxbrainhep this one pass :)14:03
tuxbrainI gonna try if it was the powercicling thing14:04
tuxbrainno even pasing the send/recive test the spectrum fails the same.14:05
wpwrakat least it's consistent :)14:06
wpwrakwhat if you comment-out the gpio test and power-cycle ?14:06
tuxbrainI have run make spectrum , with the board just replugged, and it fails too14:07
tuxbrainbut pass the send/recieve test14:08
wpwrakthat's after disabling the gpio test ?14:10
tuxbrainno with gpio test enabled14:11
tuxbrainI will disable the gpio test but "make spectrum" dont mess with gpios isn't?14:12
wpwrakmake spectum messes with darker things than gpios :-)14:12
wpwrakbut if receive/transmit is okay with the gpio test, that's encouraging14:13
tuxbrainmy guess is something wrong with the make spectrum soft not with the hard (more than a guess is a hope :P)14:14
tuxbrainok what exactly do you want I do14:14
wpwrakyeah, both tests use more or less the same pins14:14
dvdkhmm, aseprite crashes with SIGUSR1 (according to gdb), and i cannot even backtrace once that signal was received.  what can cause such a result?14:14
wpwrakfirst, let me try to salvage my board. then i can see if i can reproduce the problem here.14:15
tuxbrainok sit down a wait, I can do that :) but please hurry , I want to sleep at least two hours this night , I have some mambo jambo with financial people tomorrow and what to be as less asleep as I can14:17
tuxbrainwhat-> want14:18
wpwrakboard is up again ;-)14:23
wpwraknow it has a cute little loop crossing the area of destruction where a large capacitor and some traces used to be. the traces overheated and separated from the board (probably due to too much rework) and the capacitor may have produced short and smoke (not quite sure how. maybe there was a short underneath it and it just got cooked)14:26
tuxbrainouch .... bye bye atusb prototipe RIP :(14:27
wpwraknaw, it still kinda works. and it doesn't hang ! :)14:28
wpwrakgdb `which atrf-path`14:32
wpwrakrun usb net:ben 1014:32
wpwrakthis will either spit out a series of numbers or it will hang. if it hands, interrupt with ^C and then "where"14:33
wpwrakmstevens: Ambiguous command "w": watch, wh, whatis, where, while, while-stepping, winheight, ws.14:34
mstevenshey! what's going on? this isn't my zsh window!14:34
tuxbrain#0  0x00007ffff7483197 in ioctl () from /lib/libc.so.614:35
tuxbrain#1  0x00007ffff7bd75b0 in usb_control_msg () from /lib/libusb-0.1.so.414:35
tuxbrain#2  0x000000000040689a in atusb_interrupt (handle=0x612b40) at atusb.c:30014:35
tuxbrain#3  0x0000000000404205 in atrf_interrupt (dsc=0x6128d0) at atrf.c:32314:35
tuxbrain#4  0x00000000004051c1 in wait_for_interrupt (dsc=0x6128d0, wait_for=1 '\001', ignore=1 '\001', sleep_us=10, timeout=0)14:35
tuxbrain    at misctxrx.c:4714:35
tuxbrain#5  0x00000000004059ae in start_test_mode_231 (dsc=0x6128d0) at cwtest.c:9514:35
tuxbrain#6  0x0000000000405a7e in cw_test_resume (dsc=0x6128d0) at cwtest.c:12514:35
tuxbrain#7  0x0000000000402112 in sample (sweep=0x7fffffffe410, cont_tx=128, res=0x7fffffffe110, first=0) at atrf-path.c:8914:35
tuxbrain#8  0x00000000004022a6 in do_half_sweep (sweep=0x7fffffffe410, cont_tx=128, res=0x7fffffffe110) at atrf-path.c:12814:35
tuxbrain#9  0x000000000040234e in do_sweep (sweep=0x7fffffffe410, res=0x7fffffffe0e0) at atrf-path.c:14514:35
tuxbrain#10 0x00000000004024d2 in do_sweeps (sweep=0x7fffffffe410, sweeps=1) at atrf-path.c:19014:35
tuxbrain#11 0x0000000000402dcd in main (argc=4, argv=0x7fffffffe678) at atrf-path.c:40714:35
tuxbrainopps large than expected I will use pastebin next time14:35
wpwrakhmm .. the PLL lock ...14:36
mstevenstuxbrain: ooh, you've got new stuff14:37
wpwrakthis is in fact a questionable part of the tool, because one can imagine that the PLL is already locked, in which case there would be no interrupt14:37
wpwrakths only odd thing is that it seems to work fine for me but not for you. but well, that's murphy's perogative :)14:38
tuxbrainmstevens: yep and more to come :)14:39
mstevenstuxbrain: what are those efika things like?14:39
wpwraktuxbrain: as a temporary work-around, you could change tools/lib/cwtest.c line 93 from  wait_for_interrupt(dsc, IRQ_PLL_LOCK, IRQ_PLL_LOCK, 10, 0);14:41
wpwrakto ... 10, 20);14:41
wpwrakthen  cd tools; make clean install14:42
wpwrakmeanwhile, i'm thinking of a way to do this properly14:42
tuxbrainmstevens: I have some things to improve but the overall result is quite good, due the durantion of batt, and it's weight I have replaced my toshiba by one efika smartbook, I can navigate, use 3G dongle, read docs on the go (screen is quite readable on bright sun) and use some emergency gimp/openoffice/inkscape, so for me feets my need quite well, also the genesi team is very compromised with foss and his community is quite active... and are quite aff14:44
tuxbrainordable , so the only thing they fail is that is not copyleft hardware :)14:44
tuxbrainwpwrak: so I can change this line and take the result of the tests as valids?14:45
mstevenstuxbrain: what's the OS support like? Can I use debian?14:45
wpwrakand for this i shall withdraw to my hall of contemplation, and purge myself ... in other words, afk for a little while14:45
tuxbrainmstevens: I know a guy that was actively porting debian to it, I don't know the status, I'm confortable with the ubuntu it has by default.14:46
mstevensthere seem to be lots of interesting little arm devices at the moment14:47
wpwraktuxbrain: probably. but let's first see if this solves the problem14:49
tuxbrainit doesn't hang now :)14:49
tuxbrainwpwrak: are you still there?14:55
tuxbrainrunning make spectrum14:55
tuxbrainand after it make ben14:55
tuxbrainstill giving me the red arrow and I cannot give the test as passed, also there are not red lines to define the max min14:56
tuxbrainok solved I forget to press D in spectrum now is ok :)14:58
tuxbraintime to test a lot of boards14:58
wpwrakhehe ;)15:12
tuxbrain21 test done (100% pased :) )15:13
wpwrakwhee !15:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: what was our final score with gta02 MP ?15:14
wolfspraulbah, we defied basic math, impossible to tell15:15
wolfspraularchimedes would have cried hard15:16
wolfspraulI'm sure we passed at least 100%, if not more...15:16
wpwraki still remember your return from the fab, with all the glorious plans for remote process monitoring ;-)15:21
wpwrakthinking of it, evil me could sneak a little spy feature into tuxbrain's test script. then i'd have all the results ;-)15:21
tuxbrainwpwrak: do also an robotic arm and let me sleep motherf&%(r+15:23
wpwraki think you'll get that robotic arm when the natural one you currently use wears out. which should be around the time when you make the next batch ;-)15:24
tuxbraina robotic left arm and a dremel in my right thumb , oh yeah all controlled by an interface made of arduino and a fpga with milkymist soc embedded in my brain , oh yeah15:25
wpwrakbtw, i contemplated that PLL lock situation for a bit. i haven't found the path that would make you end up with the PLL locked before it's supposed to (in which case you wouldn't get an interrupt), but there are a few candidates for this. 15:26
wpwrakin any case, the best we can do is just assume the PLL does indeed lock. the change i suggested does give it plenty of time - much more than it needs even under worst-case conditions.15:27
wpwrakplus, there is no plausible failure mode where the PLL would never lock yet still pass all the tests. so i think it's safe to not insist on getting that interrupt.15:28
tuxbrainall the avobe means that I have to redo the test I have already done or not? (those enginers allways with his eternal xitxat about bits and .. things.... and so...)15:29
wpwrakmaybe i can tighten the test when i have the production boards. my sickish prototype with its broken reset line isn't the most reliable reference for all this15:29
wpwraknope. the tests you did after changing the , 0); to , 20); should be valid15:30
tuxbrainwpwrak: music to my ears :)15:36
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: lib/cwtest.c (start_test_mode_231): don't insist on IRQ_PLL_LOCK http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/8c0083315:39
wpwraknow it's official :)15:39
wpwraktuxbrain: ah, can you please mail/pastebin me the profiles you generated ?15:40
wpwrak(prod/ben.profile and prod/usb.profile)15:40
tuxbrainemailed :)15:42
wpwrakthanks !15:45
wpwrakhmm. ben.profile doesn't look very good. the signal is extremely weak.15:48
tuxbrainI have told you about the difference betwen atben and atusb line forms15:49
wpwrakbefore pressing "D", did you move/rotate the devices a bit to make sure they weren't in a "blind" spot of each other ?15:49
tuxbraingonna try15:49
wpwrakusb.profile is good. there's definitely something wrong with ben.profile, though15:53
wpwrakbut it doesn't look like a problem of the board. more like a problem of the test. perhaps that missing PLL lock *does* tell us something ...15:55
rjeffrieswpwrak as background info FYI this is an especially good deal for PCBs in USA15:56
tuxbrainmoving rotating doen't varies the line singificatly, it rise a little when they are next to each other but the line form is barelly the same, tested with difernte atusb15:56
wpwrakthis is what i get with that ben.profile: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/bad-ben-profile.png15:56
tuxbrainsorry with defferent atbens15:56
wpwraktuxbrain: yes. the first data point seems okay. all the others aren't15:57
tuxbrainlet me test with one of your prototipes15:57
tuxbrainsame form with your prototipes15:58
tuxbrainyou are using openwrt or jlime15:58
tuxbrainjust for discart things15:59
tuxbraini gonna change nn15:59
wpwrakrjeffries: hmm. no board thickness mentioned. presumably only 1.6 mm. but that's okay for many DIY projects.15:59
wpwraktuxbrain: that's with a ben running openwrt. but the distibution shouldn't matter.16:00
tuxbrainyes but I want to have the same scenario as you as possible16:01
antoni`is it possible to use a wifi usb stick in nanonote?16:03
wpwrakhmm, i have a hack that should make it work better. BUT ... it makes the whole test unstable. in the sense that you get spurious loss of USB, causing test failure.16:04
rjeffriesantoni' bo, nanonote only has USB device, nor USB host16:05
wpwrak(what it does is that it briefly suspends the transceiver. unfortunately, this also stops the USB clock.)16:05
wpwrak(and all this looks like another case of my reset problem masking a bug. grmbl, i should have kept more prototypes for myself ...)16:07
tuxbrainyou thing that ben low signal is coused by usb bad reception?16:07
wpwraki think it's caused by the sending transceiver in an incorrect configuration16:08
tuxbrainon atben or on atusb?16:10
tuxbrainalso more important those that mean are not sellable?16:10
tuxbrainmake sense I also test another usb?16:11
tuxbrainsorry on another NN?16:11
wpwrakthe boards are probably fine. it's the test itself that has a problem.16:12
wpwraki need to rearrange the test a bit ...16:13
tuxbrainok I will continue performing test as is , when you recieve the fab boards surelly we can definitive fine tune the whole thing16:14
wpwrakbetter work on the sugru for now, while i ponder the spectrum test :)16:16
wpwrakfor sugru, it should be sufficient to use the ben->usb test (i.e., the one with a "straight" profile)16:16
wpwraktuxbrain: okay, i understand now where the test is wrong. will be a bit of work to fix it, though.16:26
rjeffriestuxbrain here's an idea. go ahead and ship 2 ea of atben and atUSB to werner wpwrak TODAY so that we overlap shipping elapsed time with the obgoing testing and debugging16:27
tuxbrainthe units for wpwrak are assured, just today is hollidays here, I will ship to him tommorow, that was decided once I got them in my hands16:30
wpwrakrjeffries: he should have done that last week :) if he sends them now, i'll have them around friday or maybe even next tuesday (monday is a holiday). i don't think he'll have the patience to delay selling them so long ;-)16:30
tuxbrainwpwrak: get out of my mind :P16:31
wpwrakbut i think i can solve that little problem with the boards i have here, plus some remote verification by tuxbrain. in fact, i either have to find a way to make the USB connection survive briefly putting the transceiver to sleep, or treat the board like an at86rf230, which has a different test mode configuration. i have several at86rf230 boards and they all work beautifully. well, they'll probably start failing as soon as i actually ha16:33
wpwrakve a use for them ;-)16:33
tuxbrainso no big announce yet? :(16:42
wpwraki think you still have to do your sugru homework anyway, don't you ? :)16:45
wpwrakmeanwhile, i'll fix that test ...16:45
tuxbrainI will sell this first hundred without any cover16:52
tuxbrainI have to perform the sugru test but not for selling this ones16:52
wpwrakoh :-(16:52
wpwrakhow come ? don't you have enough sugru ?16:53
dvdkkyak:  alex4 config file is /etc/alex4.ini16:53
tuxbrainthat's one reason, but the main reason I have to recive reponse on the CE normative of what I have to translate of the sugru advices and how I have to stick on it 16:55
tuxbrainis a chemical that has to follow some rules on advices, the sugru team advice me of that, and I'm on the path to be sure to not being cached in so silly thing of form defect16:56
wpwrakoh, sound tricky16:56
tuxbrainyeah, that's why I decide to not include it in that batch16:56
tuxbrainbut I will perform the test and I will stop no body to buy sugru in the sugru shop :)16:57
wpwrakdon't they already come with all the necessary declarations ? afaik, they're in the UK, so they ought to have CE.16:57
wpwrak(parallel channel) hehe ;-)16:58
wpwrakmaybe dvdk can act as your unofficial channel merger then ;-)16:58
tuxbrainyeah but in english , but due I will sell it in spain I have to have all that in spanish too16:58
kyakdvdk: thanks!16:58
wpwrak(spanish) gah16:59
tuxbrainyeah silly due I can sell all over the world but as my origin is spain I have to include it in spanish, the thing is how, his sached don't have enough clear space to put a sticker without covering the english advices , so I'm looking for if just including a leaftlet in spanish is eanough17:01
tuxbrainbut I don't want to delay the atben/atusb launch for this17:01
wpwrakyeah, i understand. but anyway, it would be good if you could do the technical verification, namely:17:02
wpwrak- does it affect the signal significantly ?17:02
tuxbraindue almost the target of this first wave has also manifest their will to have it nude :)17:02
wpwrak- which quantity is sufficient ?17:02
wpwrak- can you still see the LED ?17:03
wpwrak(this may affect the color choice. e.g., black sugru may be more of a problem than, say, white sugru)17:03
dvdkkyak: having a hard time with 'keymouse'  for me the volume keys are still mapped to the F14/F15 or something?  Given that 'red' maps to RALT, that's a no-go for use for clicking17:08
dvdk(and no wonder I see SIGUSR1 signal, maybe that's how a console-switch looks like)17:09
kristianpaulcan you still remove it later? (suguru)17:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: one more good question for tuxbrain :)17:14
kyakdvdk: i can only advise to have a look at showkey (to see what are the keycodes) and dumpkeys (to see how they are mapped)17:15
tuxbrainnot easyly... maybe is you do a some kind of "calcetin" ... that will be sure is that will not be reutilizable17:15
dvdkkyak: there were some changes recently with the volume keys.  is it right that they are mapped to F-keys?  because F+ALT is console-switch. 17:16
dvdkand wrt keymouse: would be best if the keymouse modifiers were 'sticky', i.e. press red once -> arrow keys behave as mouse, press again -> arrow keys back to normal17:17
dvdkkyak: even better if we changed the kernel's key map to do the translation, i.e. red+arrow emits special key-codes that no app is going to use.  then applications would mostly ignore the mouse keys without duplicate actions.17:19
dvdkalso i can't reproduce the segfault :(17:20
dvdkuh, asprite  consumes the Fn key itself, so we can't use it as mouse-click modifier :/17:21
tuxbrainone sached of sugru is enough to cover an atusb, you will need to thin it with some roll but it's clear enough, due atben is a lot thiner and small than usb I think another with a sugru sached you can cover two atben. first cusstion solved17:21
tuxbrainled no way even with a thin amount doesnt see any bright17:23
tuxbrainwooow, totally no go the spectrum goes down a lot!!!!17:24
lekernelisn't sugru quite expensive anyway?17:25
wpwrak(spectrum) :-(17:25
wpwraklekernel: per kilo yes. per smallest available package it's not to bad17:26
kristianpaulit looked like tat result will happen17:26
kristianpaulsilicon, pla, abs... hdpe, wood?17:26
wpwrakkristianpaul: you seen murphy smile in anticipation all weekend long, haven't you ? ;-)17:27
kristianpaulwpwrak: :)17:27
wpwraktuxbrain: dont' scrape it off yet. maybe its characteristics change when it dries17:27
tuxbrainit also start failing in the gpio test, don't they say it was a no conductor????17:29
wpwrakthe magic and the mystery is in the "Si", which both have17:29
wpwraktuxbrain: let it cure17:29
kristianpaul(dries) hum i wonder if will boot after that :)17:29
kristianpaulhopefully it dint shirnk?17:29
wpwraktuxbrain: a lot of things are excellent conductors when wet17:30
kristianpaulthats true17:30
wpwrakkristianpaul: (shrinkage) hmm, silicone vs. FR4 fiberglass ? i think i know the winner of that fight ;-)17:30
tuxbrainok I will let it cure (24h) and retry again, but that will be sure is the no led17:30
wpwraktuxbrain: which color did you use ?17:30
kristianpaultuxbrain: what shape it have?17:31
tuxbraineven in the most dark room doen't see any bright comming from the sugrued atusb17:31
wpwrakwe need deeper, darker caves17:31
tuxbrainkristianpaul: mmm usb green thing?17:31
wpwraktuxbrain: ah, for labeling, you could just call it "desiccant". lots of electronics come with that. nobody gives it a second look ;-)17:32
tuxbrainyeah not even tageted costumers :P17:34
wpwraktuxbrain: if you have white sugru, you may want to give that one a try, that's probably the most likely to be at least somewhat translucent17:34
wpwrakhihi ;-)17:34
tuxbrainsorry no white sugru, I has to be buyed apart, not part of the multicolor bag.17:38
tuxbrainpicture of the sugrued atusb17:38
wpwrakhmm yes, i suspected you didn't get that one17:38
wpwrakwell, let's see whether the spectrum still sucks in 24 hours. if it's alright, you may try the white one. if not, a few euros saved :)17:39
wpwraktuxbrain needs masking tape ;-)17:39
kristianpaulokay, custom suguru cases :-)17:40
tuxbrainmasking tape?17:40
wpwrakyou could probably imprint your name, a little face, or give it horns :)17:40
wpwraktuxbrain: (masking tape) to have clean edges. well, if it's very rubbery, a knife will do17:41
wpwrakand yes, it seems you put a lot of it. no surprise the LED is invisible. 17:42
tuxbrainwpwrak kristianpaul, this was my first atempt on sugru, and "the beauty" was not in mind17:42
wpwraksure. first see if it works at all. perfection later :)17:43
tuxbrainwpwrak: dont guet confused, I put a very thin layer, in the top, yes it has some in the "tail" due I have plege it , but avove the led there will be 0.2/0.3 mm 17:44
wpwraki imagine that you could probably just push down on it over the led. or would it have ruptured ?17:45
tuxbrainI don't want to press a lot to try to recover it after the test if sugru mask the rf17:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/: rearranged cwtest/atrf-path to be more clear about reset and do re-init http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9ef447817:47
tuxbrainso that's why I have not pressed over the electronnics17:47
wpwrakah, but you have a LOT of board to experiment with ;-))17:48
tuxbrainyou want to see the closed by bankrupt in my web page isn't it?17:48
wpwraktuxbrain: new commit, new luck. cd ben-wpan/tools; make clean all install   (the ben side doesn't change)17:48
wpwraktuxbrain: let me find you a nice picture of a vulture ... :)17:49
tuxbrainfor you or for me son of a ...17:49
wpwrakto see how things are, atrf-path -g usb net:ben17:49
tuxbrainthe change of cwtest.c I did before doesn't allo to do git pull what I should do to force overwrite?17:54
wpwrakgit stash17:56
wpwrakthen proceed as usual17:56
tuxbrainhey this is the same as make ben? it looks pretty nicer now!17:58
wpwrakvery good :)17:59
wpwraknow, you need to redo the profile. the one that was good before should look the same. the other one ... better ;-)17:59
wpwrak(the two should look roughly the same)18:00
wpwrakwhen you have them, please mail18:00
wpwrakbtw, it's enough if you mail to werner@almesberger.net18:00
tuxbrainok :)18:01
wpwrakexamining ...18:03
wpwrakboth drop a bit towards higher frequencies. interesting. does this change if you rotate/move them a bit ?18:06
Jay7tuxbrain: hi, I see you are official Genesi distibutor now ;)18:07
wpwrak(or if you remove metal objects from their vicinity. and/or move yourself away from them ;-)18:07
wpwrak(if you're relatively close (<= 1 m) to the boards, you'll notice that your body has quite an influence on the signal)18:09
tuxbrainyes hehehe my head is causing some interference as you said my head is causing some distruption but not enough to afect +5 -5 db, and really man I can't setup things better, my head will reamain :P18:14
wpwrakjust don't move a lot during the tests ;-)18:17
wpwrakdoes the line get horizontal when you rotate/move ben/pc/tuxbrain ?18:18
wpwrak(that is, in some cases. you should also be able to create pretty weird patterns)18:18
tuxbrainyes if I move away (after shuttindown a lamp that seems also to affect when on) and in straight line at 1m with antenas pointing to each other, the line is barelly straight for moments, there is a little variance but mustly stright  18:20
wpwraki think you're all set to do the full test run now18:22
tuxbrainfine :)18:28
wpwraki thought you'd like that ;-)18:29
tuxbrainok at least 10 of them has pased the new test, I quite confident the 50 atusb I have tested will also pass too18:29
tuxbrainyield >0% for sure wheeeeeee18:29
wpwrakexcellent :) the atben should be even easier. there's very little that can go wrong there.18:30
tuxbrainwpwrak: just one fails the test the spectrum was too low the rest seems pretty ok, after some ingest of food I will go with atben19:43
wpwraktuxbrain: excellent so far20:03
tuxbrainsetup reordered for atben testing, re profiled and ready to burn after dinner20:14
DocScrutinizeryou also learned a lot about RF voodoo it seems ;-D21:29
tuxbrainDocScrutinizer: yeah I totally feel like playing with Necronomicon, I don't understand anything but a mistake can be fatal :P21:35
DocScrutinizerwelcome to the wonderful world of analog and UHF design 21:36
zearwhitequark, i wonder how many clicked on the picture of the can thinking it's a flash video ;)21:36
DocScrutinizerAD can - awesome!21:37
DocScrutinizerthose guys been pretty good at what they do 30 years ago, and seems they are today still21:38
DocScrutinizera bit like HP21:38
tuxbrainthe test of atben is also a stress test of the 8:10 slot :P21:39
DocScrutinizergood, excellent21:41
DocScrutinizerstress tests are really necessary21:41
DocScrutinizerI never got it how ME can get away with next to zero testing21:46
DocScrutinizeropen/close screen at least 5000 times, then closely analyze. operate keys of kbd at least 100k times21:47
DocScrutinizermate/unmate cycle all plugs at least 1000 times21:48
DocScrutinizerwell, we got some drop tests, but that's been it usually21:48
DocScrutinizereven those are done once, and only a second time when first time they failed as DUT missed to drop in best angle21:49
DocScrutinizer(seems common practice on some cheap manufacturers)21:50
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: how's about production test sw to facilitate THOSE tests? ;-)21:51
DocScrutinizerI realy don't think we EE should ignore our colleagues from ME21:53
DocScrutinizerit's bad enough we usually get ignored by ID21:53
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: all you need is a robotic arm with a few degrees of freedom. i've head tuxbrain is getting one soon. then he'll also be able to do ME stress testing ;-)21:55
DocScrutinizeryeah, alas it seems those robotized stress tests usually are all about how to build the test contraption in such a way it doesn't ruin the DUT, not about what a DUT encounters in RL21:59
DocScrutinizere.g it's completely useless to operate a kbd key 100k times with a electromagnetic actor that applies always same force in same angle axectly to the center of the key cap22:01
DocScrutinizermating connectors is even much worse in that respect22:02
wpwrakwell, you do what you can ;) you will certainly catch some kinds of material fatigue that way22:02
whitequarkhuh... ME? ID? RL? (DUT must me Device Under Test, probably.)22:02
DocScrutinizeryou can easily tell robotic mating cycles are useless by the number of USB-comes-off fatalities on N90022:03
DocScrutinizerMech Eng, IndustrialDesign (case)22:03
DocScrutinizerand Real Life ;-)22:03
whitequarkah yes. always thought the latter is a gamer-only acronym...22:04
DocScrutinizerwell, it's for sure no accepted acronym in EE22:04
wpwrakDocScrutinizer:  N900 were probably per-component mating cycles, not system cycles :)22:04
wpwrakwhitequark: (RL) for a broad sense of "gamer" ;)22:05
DocScrutinizernah, they just didn't take into account the human shortcomings when trying to apply an exactly strictly axial pulling force22:05
whitequarkwpwrak: so we're talking about that kind of people who think they live in a CAD system22:06
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: well, i've heard that they fixed the problem now and removed all the faulty customers ;-)22:06
DocScrutinizerRL == Random Level (unsolicited deviation from what you planned things to be like)22:07
wpwrakwhitequark: not too different from the premise of "tron", if you think of it :)22:07
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: indeed22:07
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: they even did the complete step and removed their own maemo division22:08
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: finally a company that pays attention to its customers ;-))22:10
DocScrutinizeryo :-/ :-((22:10
DocScrutinizerdo you think they could've profited from showing a proto incl schem to me? ;-)22:11
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: just curious, how are you related to maemo? I know you worked for openmoko, but not about nokia22:12
DocScrutinizerfor their friggin N9(50)/RM-680 whatever I offered to do this *for free* and even sign their friggin NDA. Reaction: "I'm acting erratically on IRC sometimes" IDIOTS (<--- see, did it again :-P)22:13
DocScrutinizerwhitequark: I'm strictly an educated user not shy to disassemble and analyze his own friggin expensive N90022:13
whitequarkDocScrutinizer: have you found something horrific?22:15
DocScrutinizerI'm also the guy that made USB hostmode work despite Nokia telling "that's impossible" for ~100 times22:15
DocScrutinizerI pointed at some 2 .. 3 minor hw design flaws22:15
DocScrutinizerplus a few big ones22:15
DocScrutinizerbut that's useless as N900 won't ever come in a N900-I JR edition22:16
DocScrutinizerthere are some poor designs in kbd matrix that don't allow some 2-qualifier-key+CHAR 3key-combinations, for no good reason22:19
DocScrutinizerthere's also an almost selfdistruct design around SoC I/O level vs LP5523 LED driver22:20
DocScrutinizerthis could've been avoided by using a resistor. Other system immanent selfdistruct methods are designed to never vanish (e.g. CPU core voltage programmable), so I don't consider this particular one anything special or particularly concerning22:21
DocScrutinizeresp since it's rather hard to activate this operation mode in LP5523 and destructive effect is questionable, though it looks scary to feed 4.2V to a 1.8V GPIO22:23
wpwraktuxbrain: btw, if you still have counterweights left, you may offer to include then in any ben+wpan bundles people are ordering. a special goodie for those not afraid of using a screwdriver :)22:26
DocScrutinizerdesign of the USB receptacle has been discussed all over the place ad nauseum - not really anything more to add to this topic, except my very own favourite solution to use some solder free spring contacted component like they did for AV-receptacle (and 2mm barrel power on N8x0)22:26
Action: lekernel should say more times that things are impossible on M1 as it seems to be a strong motivator22:26
tuxbrainwpwrak: good idea :)22:26
wpwraklekernel: HDTV ? :)22:26
lekernelHD?! impossible!22:27
lekernelfpga are too slows22:27
wpwraklekernel: i think you're doing it right ;-)22:27
wpwraklekernel: maybe add "it would take years of work from a team of top-notch engineers". usually, that will wake up that 12 year old kid who does it in an afternoon ;-)22:28
Action: DocScrutinizer needs to google for that dude that made N900(?) output DVB signals :-)22:29
DocScrutinizeror was it ... ah now... the "transmit music from your CRT"22:30
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: does N900 include an FM transmitter yet ? :)22:30
DocScrutinizerof course it got FMTX22:30
DocScrutinizerdidn't you know?22:30
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: by design or by freak ?22:30
DocScrutinizerby design and nicely integrated into maemo GUI22:31
wpwrakpity. that doesn't count then.22:31
wpwrakhow about GPS sender ? that should be a worthy challenge22:31
DocScrutinizerFMRX OTOH been an "easter egg"22:32
DocScrutinizernah, proper RDS to make cars leave the highway, that's a worthy goal for a hack ;-)22:33
DocScrutinizerFMTX knows to do basic RDS22:33
DocScrutinizerGPS jammers are hard to implement in sw ;-)22:33
wpwrakRDS sender sounds useful, yes. of course it would be most useful for the cars ahead of you ...22:34
DocScrutinizeralso there's a whole class of weapons that have highly evolved aiming gear to target you with an accuracy of +-3m as soon as you start to operate such a GPS jammer ;-P22:35
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: so, if you depend on your GPS, always carry a few of these22:36
DocScrutinizerI've heard in Russia there's also a class of weapons that does same for WLAN freq that aren't allowed over there X-D22:36
whitequarkGLONASS FTW!22:36
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: friend-foe identification, version 2 ;-)22:37
DocScrutinizer(russia WLAN) you'd have to ask Paul about it22:37
DocScrutinizerGLONASS seems a bit useless, for reasons I can't recall right now22:38
DocScrutinizerI'm quite interested in future european positioning system, forgot the name22:38
whitequark(glonass) with the new underwater satellite group, you can navigate submarines quite precisely22:39
DocScrutinizerit should have better accuracy and availability than US GPS22:39
Jay7DocScrutinizer: freqs about 5GHz iirc22:39
wpwrakwhitequark: had some bad luck with the rockets ?22:39
Jay7but looks like things are changing slowly22:40
DocScrutinizerJay7: sounds about right, yeah. 802.11a22:40
whitequarkwpwrak: I don't quite recall the details22:41
Action: Jay7 was working in ISP before 200522:41
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: I think you misunderstand the purpose of Galileo. it's not about building a navigation system. it's about having an excuse for putting large amounts of money into the pockets of needy large companies for a decade or two.22:41
Jay7we have tried to get that freqs22:41
DocScrutinizerswitch on in Moscow and wait for miltary to send someone/something to visit you22:41
Jay7but declined22:41
Jay7DocScrutinizer: I'm sure they didn't note this even :)22:41
DocScrutinizerJay7: sure, just kidding. But that's basically what they tell you, I guess22:42
Jay7they inspecting freqs only when something starting to bother their devices :)22:42
DocScrutinizersome sidewinder class rockets work at this 5GHz freq22:43
DocScrutinizerso a large number of 802.11a APs down there would mess up those rockets' radar, that's what I've been told22:44
DocScrutinizerand it's *theoretically* possible the sidewinder aims at you rather than the intended target ;-P22:44
DocScrutinizerin fact it's rather simple to use a certain freq for your radar and simply aim at the strongest "echo" -quite effectively defeats all CM gear the opponent's aircraft might use22:47
DocScrutinizerbut makes the missile prone to hit 802.11a APs instead of the opponent's aircraft22:48
DocScrutinizerI don't buy it, as the missile's radar needs to filter out ground reflections anyway22:50
DocScrutinizerfunny detail though: you allegedly still can ground jetfighters by using a simple magnetron in a parabolic dish, to jamm all their electronic gear on board22:53
DocScrutinizerI prefer my MTHELs, also they look rather decorative out there in my garden. And the H3F exhaust fumes nicely kill off the neighbour's weed X-P22:55
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/dirtpan/dirtpan.c: added missing #include "daemon.h", oops http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a800eb823:02
tuxbrainsoo boooring almost 80% atben test done and all pass23:30
DocScrutinizeraaaw ;-)23:31
Action: DocScrutinizer scp's some of the electronic gremlins from his zoo over to tuxbrain23:32
wpwraktuxbrain: still plan to do a range test with every single board ?23:32
tuxbraindefinitively no23:33
wpwraki didn't think so ;-))))23:33
tuxbrainDocScrutinizer's gremlins also pass23:33
DocScrutinizernot after midnight in Aegypt23:35
tuxbrainmidnight in Aegypt also pass23:36
mthmidnight is not a problem as long as you don't feed them23:37
tuxbrainmake gremlin23:37
tuxbrainPASS Midnight23:37
tuxbrainPASS GPIO Food23:37
Action: mth always wondered when "after midnight" ends, because there has to be a time when it is ok to feed them or they'll starve23:37
tuxbrainPASS pass waterresistance23:38
tuxbrainPASS spectrum... gizmo song ok 23:38
tuxbrainPASS bright light23:39
tuxbrainbah, another gremlin made by tuxbrain23:39
wpwrakone failed ?23:40
wpwrak100% pass would mean that i'd have to make nastier tests :)23:40
tuxbrainwell they not pass the sugru test :P23:41
wpwraklet's wait with that verdict until 24 hours have passed. curing may still make a difference.23:42
DocScrutinizermth: I always claim to never drink before noon - it's always after noon somewhere. It's also per definition always and everywhere after last noon23:43
tuxbrainso another PASS? PASS sugru23:43
tuxbrainI don't know if I can resist23:43
DocScrutinizerindeed 100% yield is a bad sign23:44
tuxbrainDocScrutinizer: can you elaborate please?23:44
DocScrutinizerno kidding23:44
DocScrutinizer100% yield indicates the tests may be ineffective23:45
DocScrutinizerof course only applies to sufficiently large sample sizes23:45
wpwraknow that's funny. the baluns have an operating temperature of -40 to +85 C, but a storage temperature of only 15-35 C. you don't see such a thing often :) presumably, this is to avoid accumulation of humidity before SMT. while afterwards, you don't care.23:45
tuxbrainwell I must say that some of the atbens has some tendency to have more signal making the spectrum make some yellow arrow for a moment , so the most mistake is that some (mabe a 5 or 6 works slightly better than the others 23:47
DocScrutinizeralso "storage" may mean "unlimited stashing without degradation" while "operation" means "works for the designed lifetime"23:47
DocScrutinizertuxbrain: good enough to prove effectiveness of tests, I guess23:48
wpwraktuxbrain: maybe you picked a weak one as the reference23:48
tuxbrainthat fits in the 95% of the rest?23:48
tuxbrainjust in the middle of the red lines23:49
wpwrakif the difference is small, that may still happen (and it's good that it's small)23:49
DocScrutinizer95% inside "standard deviation limits" is what you'd expect anyway23:49
wpwrakhow did my reference board perform ? or was that the one you used to generate the profile ?23:49
DocScrutinizerif one or some of the 5% are too bad to pass QA depends on size of sample, as mentioned above23:50
tuxbrainreference board you mean your prototipe?23:50
DocScrutinizeras well as some other parameters of the whole equation23:50
tuxbrainI have used fab one as ref23:51
tuxbraindo you want I perform the test with yours? wait23:51
DocScrutinizer100% inside standards would indicate your standards are poorly defined, or the testbed is yielding bogus results23:52
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: the spectrum test isn't particularly tight. the goal is to find severe flaws, such as a component missing, one output grounded, or such. a few dB more or less is something we can't control with our amateurish setups anyway.23:52
DocScrutinizerI agree, but I'm sure you got my basic idea23:53
tuxbrainwpwrak: the prototipe,  inside the margins tending to the low band but green anyway23:53
wpwraktuxbrain: (test with mine) yup :) if it's way out, that would be a little worring. i may a bit out [...]23:53
wpwraktuxbrain: perfect. that's exactly what should happen ;-)23:53
DocScrutinizerI'm confident the tests are effective and you did an awesome job at assembly23:54
wpwraktuxbrain: i expect the factory-made ones to be better overall than my DIY work. so it makes sense that the prototypes perform "low" when compared to an MP board.23:54
tuxbrainonly 10 left23:57
wpwrakyield is already > 92%, no matter what happens next ;-)23:57
--- Tue Jun 14 201100:00

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