#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-05-29

wpwrakthe lcd cable does seem to be the main support issue that comes up here. so i think i'll keep those FPCs on my enemy list. alas, there's just no way of avoiding them when it comes to LCDs, na dparticularly not in hinged designs.00:00
wpwraks/na d/and/00:00
wpwrak(no way of avoiding them) well ... almost. there are some oddball displays that have different means of attachment. not very relevant for this class of devices, though.00:01
grunthusWhy not some sort of brush contact arrangement?00:02
grunthus(similar principle as in brush/commutator in motor)00:02
wpwrakhmm, contamination may be an issue there. also, probably complexity/size/cost.00:04
kristianpaulthere are previous cases for contamination?00:05
wpwrakat least the FPCs are pretty much sealed in the areas where the mechanical action is.00:05
kristianpaulwich i wonder if at least should let the LCM misbehave not just kept off00:05
grunthusLooked like the FPC had ~12 connectors - could distribute over length of 'axle'?00:06
wpwrakgrunthus: sounds big and expensive :)00:06
grunthusAnother idea might be inductive loops in the hinge with pickup loops. Could these be small enough.00:06
kristianpaulwpwrak: how do you translte bitwise to spanish? (if is posible)00:07
wpwrakkristianpaul: (contamination) there would be if there was a brush/sliding mechanism.00:07
kristianpauli cant still get my mind to get that word..00:07
grunthuss/loop/coil00:07
Action: kristianpaul having problems with pointers aganin :S00:08
wpwrakkristianpaul: bit por bit ? un bit a la vez ?00:09
kristianpaulhmm00:09
wpwrakgrunthus: now it sounds very very expensive :) and also an EMI problem00:09
grunthusOh dear. Hey, just get some of that new graphene stuff !!00:10
wpwrakgrunthus: don't forget that the able also provides power. something like 100 mW (rough estimate, didn't look at the actual numbers)00:10
wpwraks/able/cable/00:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: (pointers) sucks not to have an MMU that turns a bad pointer simply into a segfault instead of a dead system, doesn't it ? :-)00:11
wpwrakgrunthus: if you're planning to play with UBB and ubb-vga, that's something you could still do before sending back the ben. the lcd actually only gets in the way with ubb-vga :)00:13
kristianpaulwpwrak: you know my current suffering ;), but once i found root cause i should improve some skill i hope00:14
grunthuswpwrak: Ok, my last thought. A two core FPC or similar for power...00:14
kristianpaulwpwrak: oh wow, i dint knew it MMU helped on tha way, now i have a +1 for then00:14
grunthusSome sort of optical coupling for data transmission to LCD.00:15
grunthusIR LED/photodiode.00:15
grunthuscoder/decoder, no idea how small that could be.00:15
wpwrakheh, a high-speed IR link could work :) but then, if you already have an FPC, might as well use it for everything00:15
grunthusWould a two core power FPC not be more robust than the type currently used?00:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: finally found a good aplication for IR? :_)00:16
wpwraklet's see ... 16 bits per pixel, 320 x 200 x 50 Hz, that's about 51 Mbps. doable.00:17
wpwrak(two core) a little, but probably not substantially enough to be worth the extra trouble of avoiding the remaining signals.00:18
grunthusCould you not bundle two core wire along with fibre optic for IR into a single slim plastic sheath? The screen could then be detachable (although I'm not sure why that would be useful) as well/instead of hinged. Would perhaps be more reliable than FPC?00:32
grunthusMaybe not. Getting a bit ridiculous perhaps.00:32
grunthusBye for now, will be back when my replacement Ben arrives.00:38
wpwraknot sure if fiberoptics let along a copper+fiberoptics combo is really more reliable than just a copper FPC00:38
wpwraks/along/alone/00:38
wpwrakalso, the optical connection ought to be fun :)00:39
kristianpaulaggrg02:35
kristianpaul:-)02:35
kristianpaulwell is sunday :-)02:35
wolfspraulviric: do you have a nice screenshot of nanonixos running on the Ben?05:19
wolfspraulI'm looking for something to include in the 06-01 community news http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2011-06-0105:19
wolfspraulwpwrak: do you remember where you got the music in your dirtpan video from?07:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: i made it with my kaossilator. sound effect/program P97 :)07:10
wolfsprauloh07:10
wolfspraulthis thing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg_Kaossilator07:11
wpwrakyup, that's the one07:17
wolfspraulexcellent, thanks07:18
wolfspraulok, my first round of cleaning up the NanoNote section is finished07:25
wolfspraulhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2011-06-01#NanoNote07:25
wolfspraulwhat's missing are a few more screenshots07:25
wolfspraulfor VGA we have enough I think, I just need to collect them07:25
wolfspraulfor nanonixos, Debian Wheezy, 05-22 image (xiangfu says another small update is coming 05-28 or so...), 4th, mplayer - not sure right now, hopefully I get some help07:26
wolfspraulI'll work a bit on the Milkymist section now :-)07:26
wolfspraulof course there may be more NanoNote stuff, things I overlooked, but this is a start07:27
wpwrak(vga) if you need any original (ungamma'ed, uncropped, unscaled) pictures, just let me know07:39
wpwrak(nanonote) soon (few more hours), i'll also have the documentation of the ben-wpan production test process07:40
vladkorotnevhello everyone :P07:53
wolfspraulvladkorotnev: hi07:57
wolfspraulah true, we should mention ben-wpan production news07:58
wolfspraulwell, I cleanup milkymist a bit first07:58
vladkorotnevwolfspraul: could you please point me at some SDIO libs for the NN?07:58
wolfspraulnot really, because I don't know :-)07:58
wolfspraulyou mean some library that allows you to read/write sdio commands from userspace?07:59
wolfspraulI have no idea, first see what the Linux kernel does about it...07:59
wpwrak... or maybe it's bit-banging ... :)07:59
vladkorotnevwolfspraul: yes, or some beginner project to blink an LED with the NN :)07:59
wpwrakaha ! ben-blinkenlights then08:00
wpwrakhttp://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/bbl08:00
vladkorotnevwpwrak: is it on Qi projects server?08:00
vladkorotnevoh thanks :)08:00
vladkorotnevso if I set the number of led's in the source to 1, I will get one blinking led? :P08:01
wpwrakwell, what kind of hardware have you attached ? you typically have to customize your driver for whatever external circuit you've made08:03
vladkorotnevI'm gonna try that when golded finishes compiling. It is compiling for zoo long :P08:03
wpwrake.g., the driver is for this one: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/ben-blinkenlights/pdf_head/bbl.pdf08:04
wpwrak(driver = bbl.c)08:04
vladkorotnevwpwrak: the same, but one led08:04
vladkorotnevbetween pins 1 and 808:04
wpwrakhmm, i should clean up that stuff a little. move things into the subdirectory, and such08:04
wpwrakthen setting the number of LEDs to one may indeed work.08:05
vladkorotnevwpwrak: also, are there UBB board files so I could make one at home :P?08:05
wpwrakof course: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/ubb08:06
vladkorotnevwpwrak: which format is it in?08:07
wpwrakit's for kicad bze version 2448; see also http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/kicad-patches/README08:09
wpwraks/bze/bzr/08:09
vladkorotnevoh, kicad is also available for mac, neat!08:10
vladkorotnevMay I control a relay with this circuit as well?08:12
wpwrakif you have a relay that works with 3.3 V, you should be able to make a simple circuit that works, yes. you 08:20
wpwrak'll need a transistor and protection diode, as usual.08:20
wpwrakthe I/O lines only provide a nominal 4 mA, effectively maybe 10 mA, but VDD is good for some 100-200 mA.08:20
vladkorotnevthanks08:23
wpwrake.g., a relay with a rated coil voltage of 3 Vdc should be okay. like this one: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=Z2758-ND08:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, a came across this nice list a few days ago: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Comparison_of_hardware_books08:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: never knew it existed. maybe you should introduce a "pimp oldies but goodies" section in the community news, and pimp it there ;-)08:26
kyakvladkorotnev: hi! try "opkg update; opkg install http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/luit_1.1.0-1_xburst.ipk". Then you can start your fido client as "luit -encoding 'KOI8-R' -- fidowtf" (while being in ash-rus)08:28
wpwrakvladkorotnev: or a little more fancy, with lower current: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=255-2856-ND08:29
vladkorotnevkyak: thanks08:47
vladkorotnevI'll try when it finishes compiling and I fix another PC08:47
viricwolfspraul: Ahm... the screenshot would be of prboom, or lynx running, or a normal shell. 08:59
viricwolfspraul: I don't know what could end up being representative.08:59
wpwrakfor a text-only experience, does it have a nice banner message ? maybe run pstree09:06
wolfspraulviric: he, OK. no problem I just thought you had something like werner said a banner or so, but if not that's OK.09:11
lunavorax_frizzlHey ! Other French people !09:33
qi-bot[commit] kyak: ben-cyrillic: modified keymap http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/306507809:35
Aylamorning09:40
lunavorax_frizzlMorning Ayla09:40
viricwolfspraul: maybe I should write some 'contact' in the page of nanonixos09:49
viricwpwrak: ah, there may be something representative, yes. I'll try to capture something09:58
viricI missed the line about what banner09:58
viricxiangfu: you can update offrss on openwrt, btw. :)09:59
viricxiangfu: 1.0 out09:59
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: offrss: update to 1.0 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/d0b6d4510:14
xiangfuviric ^ :)10:15
viricGreat!10:23
viricthank you10:23
qi-bot[commit] David K├╝hling: new package: liballegro: a lightweight game and multimedia library http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/470705711:56
qi-botThe build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-05282011-1627/13:33
xiangfuqi-bot, good job :)13:34
kyak:)13:36
kristianpaul:-)13:37
kyakxiangfu: when do you plan to stop building backfire based images?13:38
xiangfukyak, I will test 0528, if everything is fine (at least the Freedroid dvdk mentioned works fine) I will release the last 'backfire' openwrt release.13:39
kyakxiangfu: i see.. i think all patches from master have been put into trunk13:39
xiangfuthen stop build 'backfire' release. switch to 'trunk' 100%, means we can move 'master' to release_2011-05-2813:40
kyakexcept for uboot patches.. not sure if they are necessary13:40
xiangfukyak, yes. 13:40
xiangfukyak, I will handle the uboot.13:40
kyakxiangfu: i updated the list a little bit http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Git#working_progress :)13:40
kyakthere are 5 uboot related patches left13:40
xiangfuyou moved the '0014-...' thanks.13:41
kyakthat 0014 was not even required. It works already :)13:41
xiangfukyak, yes. uboot. there is update in 'master', 'trunk' using a old version, but it's support n516, nanonote.13:41
kyakjust the path a bit different13:41
kyakxiangfu: the path is /sys/devices/platform/spi_gpio.1/spi1.0/lcd/ili8960-lcd/brightness13:43
xiangfukyak, thanks. :)13:43
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: opened it?14:45
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: (sorry, I never had the joy to touch a real wikireader, and the case changed a lot since I left the project, so no hints from my side)14:46
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: try /join #openmoko-cdevel - except here the best chances to find someone who knows about WR there14:49
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: (open) i'm planning to, you let me intriged about it14:55
kristianpaulok14:55
lunavorax_frizzlHum14:57
lunavorax_frizzlI have a question about bit-banging14:57
lunavorax_frizzlFor the nanonote14:57
lunavorax_frizzlIs it possible to hook up (i suppose yes but anyway) to hook up motors and stuff and make an automatic bot with wheels controled by the nanonote ?14:58
lunavorax_frizzlMaybe the voltage is a little low but in theory.14:58
kristianpauls/intriged/intrigued14:59
kristianpaulyes you can with proper motor driver and hopefully opto isolation just in case15:00
qi-bot[commit] kyak: ascii-paint: fix build in trunk http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4771df515:00
qi-bot[commit] kyak: wordgrinder: fix build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c0acd5c15:00
qi-bot[commit] kyak: libncurses-dev: fix build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/6ba161615:00
qi-bot[commit] kyak: dega: fix build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/8fdcc4615:00
kristianpaullunavorax_frizzl: btw pololu is full of that driver stuff, afaik not open/free designs..15:00
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: (opto) depends on size of robot, maybe it's just not needed15:02
DocScrutinizerthough for sure doesn't hurt ;-)15:02
DocScrutinizerexcept your BOM15:02
DocScrutinizermeego going FOSS hw, LOL15:03
lunavorax_frizzlDocScrutinizer, wasn't Meego already FOSS ? I'm confused15:05
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: If I connect qi-hw the-inc with meego-foss-hw-project (which allegedly has a sponsor). I have to insist in the senior EE part on your side ;-D15:05
kristianpaulFOSS hw? you mean FOSS as in freerunner? or copylefted?15:05
lunavorax_frizzlkristianpaul, ok, so I suppose the maximum voltage that the minisd card slot can output is 5v right ?15:05
DocScrutinizerunclear yet15:05
DocScrutinizeraiui as in FR15:06
DocScrutinizermeego-arm's future is all but bright - missing hw perspectives since Nokia sacked it15:07
kristianpaullunavorax_frizzl: 3.3V15:07
DocScrutinizerso - as they are meego - they obviously thought "WE can do THAT!"15:08
kristianpaullunavorax_frizzl: i think,15:09
kristianpaullunavorax_frizzl: but anyway, thats not the point, as you'll just put a "driver" between nanonte and motors15:09
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: ah okay i know what you meant with the lol15:10
lunavorax_frizzlkristianpaul, so you mean there's already a software for that ?15:11
kristianpaullunavorax_frizzl: nope there is not, but there are projects like Blinkenlights to look at examples about bitbang SDIO15:12
kristianpaullunavorax_frizzl: also, i dont see too much complexity for driver a DC motor, no more that 2 lines for PWN and direction right?15:13
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: wolfspraul: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog15:15
kristianpaulcheers for guy who ported gottet!15:17
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: wich day should we look?15:18
DocScrutinizercurrent15:18
DocScrutinizert0-25s ;-)15:18
kristianpaul:D15:18
lunavorax_frizzlkristianpaul, I don't know, I never coded anything that implies playing with the IO15:25
lunavorax_frizzlkristianpaul, I was also asking these question because I made a connection with that and what some people are doing when programming the parallel port to control robot stuffs.15:26
kristianpaulkinda same15:26
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: even stepper motors o real problem, there's even a nice collection of all-in-one driver chips15:31
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: well let's see what happens15:33
lunavorax_frizzlkristianpaul, anyway thanks for theses info :)15:33
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: sure. If you're interested at all, I'll keep you in15:33
lunavorax_frizzlkristianpaul, I'm just scared of screwing my hardware if I made a mistake while coding15:33
wolfspraulI'm very confident in our path here, if anything I regret that we can't speedup more on things like ben-wpan, the whole stack it needs, on the manufacturing side stuff like boom15:33
wolfspraulsure I'm interested, but let's see who that is, and what kind of expectations they have15:34
DocScrutinizerexactly, but also important to be there from T015:34
DocScrutinizerit's always the foundation problems that bite your ass anytime later15:35
wolfspraulyes but it's also that people come and go, give up too fast, etc.15:35
wolfspraulno patience especially with manufacturing, which is where every successful hardware business better be rooted...15:35
DocScrutinizerand decisions like "where do we produce? Nokia fab | Qi" are sometimes early nad not reversible15:36
DocScrutinizerjust had to ask if you're interested and I may keep you folks in mind when talking to them - you might as well say "MEH, meego. Nokia "15:37
wolfspraulwhere does our system level software come from? where do the RF stacks come from?15:37
DocScrutinizerI#m aware of those problems :-)15:37
wolfspraulI am doing copyleft hardware, as long as it fits that definition I'm interested, it's a net win for everybody.15:37
wolfspraulI wish we had much more investment in boom.15:38
wolfspraulalso back to the KiCad server stuff, layout history, etc.15:38
DocScrutinizerok, a clear statement. You're also not afraid of 10k volume15:38
wolfspraula huge giant push on the whole ben-wpan problem15:38
wolfspraulno of course not15:38
wolfspraulyou cannot do 10k with a new design anyway, you know that15:38
wolfspraulfirst 10, then 20, then 50, then 100, ...15:38
DocScrutinizeryou know me ;-)15:38
wolfspraulbut I've seen a lot of such 'promising talks'15:39
DocScrutinizerhaha, too many actually15:39
wolfspraulthis guy saying "I want to push OMAP" :-) oh oh :-)15:39
wolfspraulsoftware people dreaming up hardware is always a lot of fun to watch15:39
DocScrutinizerfo rmeego-arm it's sane notion, as they already have something for OMAP15:39
wolfspraulsometimes their dreams are rooted straight in some chip maker's press releases15:40
wolfspraulsure, that may be. I'm just saying how I've seen these things developing in the past.15:40
wolfspraulchip maker X comes out with some fantastic press release15:40
DocScrutinizeryeah "sorry dudes, Samsung never will build this SoC"15:40
wolfspraulfree software guru Y cannot really read to the end of the release, but is already dreaming up his 'open' device using this great chip15:40
wolfspraulargh15:41
wolfspraulthere's like 10,000 things or more between such a 'chip maker press release' and a manufactured working device15:41
wolfspraulbut whatever...15:41
DocScrutinizerOMAP3530 series is real15:41
wolfspraulyes of course15:41
wolfspraulOMAP are great chips15:41
wolfsprauldid you get my point?15:42
DocScrutinizersure15:42
wolfspraulI'm just saying I saw this kind of logic too often.15:42
wolfspraulso I'm now wary15:42
DocScrutinizerthat's why I try to get in *early*15:42
wolfspraulhardware (manufacturing) is freaking difficult15:42
DocScrutinizerthose sw dudes need some decent grounding15:42
wolfsprauland some people compare with a running train, high-speed train15:42
wolfspraulyou cannot just design something and have the same system running at that speed15:43
DocScrutinizerwasn't that me? ;-)15:43
Action: DocScrutinizer vaguely recalls all the nausea he felt with sean's decisions15:43
wolfspraulI'm not even sure we should attempt gsm, I guess it's 3g/lte nowadays, too soon15:44
wolfspraulI very much like the work Werner has been doing with ben-wpan15:44
wolfspraulwe need to get that to work, software stack, produced and sold on the hardware side, later integrated into a more polished and cheaper product, etc.15:44
wolfspraulof course if an investor comes along and wants to lift this all to higher ground faster, sure, definitely interested15:45
DocScrutinizerwell, my notion about wpan as a concept is somewhat less optimistic, but I agree on werner doing a damn good job there15:45
wolfspraulI think we cannot jump onto the 3g/lte train now.15:46
wolfspraultoo difficult15:47
wolfspraulwe = me :-)15:48
wolfspraulif someone else thinks they can, great15:48
DocScrutinizerI'm sure we'll get 'some' help with the cellmo side, you know it's still mae... err meego15:49
Action: DocScrutinizer has scaring visions of daughterboards...15:50
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: I got the advantage of knowing probably 50% of those dudes since almost 2 years now. I to some degree know what they dream of and how to deal with those dreams and delusions15:54
DocScrutinizerand they know me and my sometimes rather grumpy cynical way, and must somehow tolerate it, otherwise they wouldn't contact me15:55
wolfspraulI'm interested in manufacturing stuff16:01
wolfspraulthat includes sourcing, testing16:01
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: maegor ! ;-)16:01
wolfspraulif I do it, it's going to be 100% free and open documented16:01
wolfspraulif it's real, and we can get some money, the #1 person to employ would be Werner :-) so we can beef up boom and other goodies16:02
wolfspraulthat's just my thinking16:02
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: I've been posting almost same wording same second to laterego16:02
Action: wpwrak likes that thinking ;-)16:02
DocScrutinizerthe problem is the investor wants to see some ROI16:03
DocScrutinizerat least break even ;-)16:03
wolfspraulwhy is that a problem?16:04
wolfspraulevery normal business accepts some kind of risk, and that risk is what makes it profitable later16:05
wolfspraulwhat kind of risk does this investor want to take? what does he believe in?16:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, when talking to potential sponsors/investors interested in openness, something like this may be useful: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/achieve.pdf16:06
wolfspraulsomething like "if I had something like the iPhone, I could imagine investing 10 million USD", that's not going to cut it16:06
wolfspraulbecause in that thinking 'iphone' includes everything from hardware design, to software development reaching back 10 years, to retail chain, to established global supply chain, to itunes/app store, to to to to16:08
wolfspraulso that's stupid. if you want that, you better have a few billion to invest, over many years. and then its' actually better to make a much smaller step first, and make that profitable, and then do the second step.16:08
wolfspraulif the investor is _purely_ interested in financials, I doubt this will work either16:09
wpwrakindeed. e.g., make a ya first, with a properly open process. then use that process for harder targets.16:10
wolfspraulthere are very profitable investments in the financial world, you never need to leave it to make a lot of money16:10
wolfspraulso that's why I'm asking about "which risk" the investor wants to take, and what he believes will take off/justify the investment16:10
wpwrakthe financial world is a bit our problem. if you just want to make money, why even bother with production ?16:10
wolfspraulwe see...16:10
wolfsprauloh sure, of course16:11
wolfspraulyou don't :-)16:11
wolfspraulso there needs to be someone who wants (!) to take on production risks16:11
wolfspraulmarketing risks16:11
wolfspraulsoftware development risks16:11
wolfsprauland so on16:11
wolfspraulquite a lot in such a little smartphone :-)16:12
wpwrakso what sort of romantic notion would we have to appeal to then ? considering that we've already established that it's not very interesting financially16:12
wolfspraulno I think it may be interesting financially16:12
wolfspraulrisk = profit16:12
wolfspraulwe have plenty of risks, no?16:12
wolfspraul:-)16:12
wpwrakoh, you can get the craziest risks in finance, too16:12
wolfspraulbut an investor who just looks at money, x USD today, x+y USD in z months, that will not work16:13
wolfspraulbecause if that's his thinking, he will not want to take on risks outside of financial products16:13
wolfspraulyes [finance risk] - those are for the purely financial investors then16:13
wolfspraulthat's my point, we need to understand the thinking behind DocScrutinizer's/meego's idea16:14
wolfspraulthe fact that the investor wants to make his money back is only logical16:14
wolfspraulof course. from device sales?16:14
wolfspraulthere are so many ways to make money back16:14
wolfspraulcarrier subsidies16:15
wolfspraulapp store sales16:15
wolfsprauladvertisements in free apps16:15
wolfspraultoo many16:15
wolfspraulneed to understand the investor16:15
DocScrutinizerre, sorry16:15
DocScrutinizerreading backscroll16:15
wolfspraulI'm looking at this just from a manufacturing perspective16:15
wolfspraulmy risk is yield16:15
wolfspraulI take that16:15
wolfspraulI can sell for bom + x%16:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: how do you like the table ? "manufacturing" needs a bit of expanding and things like sourcing and such are missing, too (may be too much detail, though)16:34
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: aiui and what he told me, the investor has to be interested in a meego development device with a longer product lifecycle (and support - and perspective)  than N900. This investor is probably involved with meego (intel? some affiliated inc?) and they want to break even, ROI a nice-to-have but not mandatory16:35
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: the device in spe is clearly labeled as a meego-developer-device, with phone and data connectivity aiui16:38
DocScrutinizeromap3, potentially omap416:38
DocScrutinizerdepending on risk evaluation. Product requirement spec next ToDo16:39
DocScrutinizermy main concern atm is whether investor is aware at all about the 5..6 after the USD10^16:40
wolfspraulwpwrak: I like it, let me dwell over it tomorrow16:43
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: meego-arm aka handset-UX projext is at a dead end with their options for hw. No main manuf seems to jump on this train, while Nokia effectively binned all their plans16:44
wolfspraulhow did Intel do their smartphone prototypes?16:44
DocScrutinizerdunno, do they have any that really work? :-P16:44
wolfspraulno but I'm sure there were small runs etc.16:44
wolfspraulthe usual stuff16:45
DocScrutinizeryou're not talking about that x86-phones? 16:45
wolfspraulyes, those16:45
DocScrutinizereeew16:45
DocScrutinizerreportedly a major fail16:45
wolfspraulbecause you say 'Intel'16:45
wolfspraulsure, but someone must have made some prototypes16:45
wolfspraulanyway you know it all, you just talk and see what happens16:45
DocScrutinizerintel isn't short of R&D and manufacturing facilities of arbitrary scale16:46
DocScrutinizerI did talk all the time, that's why this delay here16:46
DocScrutinizerof my answers16:46
wolfspraulah, don't say that. to put together something as exotic (for them) as a smartphone the best choice may be an outside small firm16:46
DocScrutinizerthat's what I think we see happening here16:47
DocScrutinizermere handwaving16:47
wolfspraulalright I'll read the backlog tomorrow, have to go sleep now16:48
DocScrutinizerit's more economical for intel to get a working meego-arm and port it to any future x86-phone or whatever they decide to sell for SoC to their customers, than to do all the development of hanset UX and kernel and whatnot on their own16:49
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: cya16:49
DocScrutinizerso throw a few megabucks at some "fool" to do the heavy lifting for you, while the name Intel doesn't show up anywhere (low risk for corporate reputation etc). Let them use whatever they like - after all they probably are better with Nokia than you'd be with your intel businesscard16:52
DocScrutinizerand in the end you got a much easier to kill or buyout competitor in the end, when you start to sell your intel-phones, than it'd be when Nokia did that16:53
DocScrutinizerintel and M$ are friends. Nokia and M$ are friens now. How's Intel explain they go for meego instead of winP7 for their phones :-)16:55
DocScrutinizerI thing the air is burning between Nokia and Intel16:56
DocScrutinizerthink*16:56
DocScrutinizerNB last meegoconf beginning of last week (7 days ago) had *not a single* official Nokia speaker, not a single Nokia desk afaik16:57
DocScrutinizerand last thing rumour had about that 'meego device' Nokia promised for this year: it's a phone running a severely crippled/mod-o-fied *maemo* v6 aka harmattan OS, and meego board refused to allow Nokia to call it 'Meego'17:00
DocScrutinizerso odds are everybody's severely pissed right now17:01
DocScrutinizerIntel doesn't want to take the "risk" to build phones with meego. Nokia "mustn't". What's left to save the meego idea? Outsource it17:04
DocScrutinizeryou know FSF is third man on board of meego. So chances for a copyleft hw manuf are good I'd think17:05
DocScrutinizererr, FSF?17:06
DocScrutinizersorry, I need some minutes to finally wake up17:06
kristianpaulFSF? really 17:23
kristianpaulwell at least then could rise funds from somwhere.. dont you think?17:24
kodeinwasn't LG sort of interested?17:35
DocScrutinizerkristianpaul: s/FSF/ http://www.linuxfoundation.org/17:37
kristianpaulahh17:37
kristianpaulthat changes everything 17:38
DocScrutinizerkodein: there were rumours, yes17:38
DocScrutinizerno device in vicinity anyway17:39
DocScrutinizeralso you'd not know how much of an *open* device that'd be17:40
kodeinit's not really like there seems to be a device in the vicinity from anyone else either, though17:40
DocScrutinizerseems meego handset UX ran into the obvious obstacle of closed hw and missing drivers, after all17:41
DocScrutinizerkodein: that's the whole point of my epic monologue17:41
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/index.hmac: make items in definition list stick out more http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/208663c17:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dropped f32xbase dependency on Makefile.common http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/45746fd17:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: reduced excessive use of <B> ... </B> http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/8b26bb717:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: cleanup and clarifications after proofreading http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/46b15ef17:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: completed section on component orientation (with pictures) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a66241017:47
wpwrakanyone care to proofread my production/testing description before i announce it on the list ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/prod/17:48
wpwraksome things are still missing, but the process should be good enough to avert major surprises17:48
DocScrutinizerI *should* do this, alas I'm about to have some >breakfast<... after ~48h17:50
wpwrakreading while eating should work great ;-)17:52
DocScrutinizernot when I have to leave to find sth to eat17:52
wpwrakah, always keep supplies :)17:53
DocScrutinizerbtw why the red dots at "components" in http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/achieve.pdf ?17:53
DocScrutinizer(run out of supplies like 3 days ago)17:53
Action: DocScrutinizer glares at the one black banana over there17:54
DocScrutinizerseems to me like they don't conserve as long as they used to do17:55
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (red dots) documentation of the SoC not publicly available. publicly but not redistributable docs would be yellow. redistributable docs (or self-made chip ;-) green.17:56
DocScrutinizeraaah, I thought in terms of BOM17:57
DocScrutinizer[2011-05-29 18:27:54] <DocScrutinizer> available datasheets for all the chips17:58
DocScrutinizer[2011-05-29 18:28:17] <DocScrutinizer> (watch out, that's a really tricky point!)17:58
DocScrutinizer(/me explaining concepts of open hw to meego-phone dude)17:58
wpwrakyes yes, imprtant point, as we all know :)17:59
DocScrutinizerI told him that's a prerequisite for Qi-hw to be interested18:00
DocScrutinizermaybe I've been to fundamental?18:00
DocScrutinizertoo even18:01
wpwraki bit. de facto available is tolerable if we have no other choice (e.g. ingenic)18:01
DocScrutinizerHe'll come back with news - or not18:02
DocScrutinizerI just tried to make utterly clear when building hw the first ones to join the talk are the EE and manufs - otherwise FAIL18:03
DocScrutinizerwhere munuf here == the dudes to do the sourcing, assembling, PCB building etc18:04
wpwrakyeah. well, little risk on our side for marketing and design to start negotiations, eh ? ;-)18:04
DocScrutinizersure18:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/analysis.html: typo and small language fix http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/40d78b222:38
--- Mon May 30 201100:00

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