#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-05-12

qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Isolate all PNG loading in a separate source/header. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/e6be83500:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Minor cleanups in SFontPlus and ASFont. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/c54dec900:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Introduced enums for text alignment in the ASFont class. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/a35a7e200:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: moved SFontPlus code into ASFont source files. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/ec5d42600:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: simplified object initialization and cleanup. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/492a36b00:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: removed precalculation of half heights. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/e4b711300:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: have a single routine for computing text width that also handles newlines. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/ff546cd00:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: cleanups in text write methods. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/1bc553900:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: merged SFontPlus class into ASFont class. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/b4f3cde00:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: removed duplication of horizontal alignment code. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/bff04d200:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:gmenu2x http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/859203800:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Fixed debug print. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/db5ebff00:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: only convert font surface if it is not already in a 32bpp format. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/41e6e4600:15
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: ASFont: access font pixels efficiently. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/a382a4200:15
rjeffrieswpwrak for FUTURE consderaton over the air updates. see this note from a commercial ZiBee outfit00:40
wpwrakrjeffries: sure, you can always add OTA. just kinda inconvenient in our case :)00:55
wpwrakrjeffries: ... considering that the device plugs into USB for power already, etc. also, for OTA, you would then have to address authentication.01:09
kristianpaulhmm, dfu i dint knew that existed :_)01:44
wpwrakkristianpaul: yet another thingie inherited from openmoko. there, it was quite an interesting experience ... combined with the effort of turning u-boot into the multi-tasking operating system it always secretly wished to be ;)01:51
wpwrakkristianpaul: but dfu per is is nice. you just have to do it without u-boot :)01:51
kristianpaulbtw any show up from tuxbrain about the SMT?01:54
wpwrakkristianpaul: thundering silence so far01:57
wpwrakkristianpaul: i kinda wonder how this will proceed. maybe he'll pop up one day, with 100+ atben and atusb fresh from SMT, wondering if they work01:58
wpwrakwe can make bets on the probability of that outcome :)01:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: what do you think ? diligent smt fab, but first time customer, new process, new board. board quite simple. what are the chances of an open loop production not ending in disaster ?02:00
wolfspraulopen loop production02:05
kristianpauli understood he will send a few boards first to SMT..02:06
wolfspraulI don't know more than anybody else. My guess is Tuxbrain will continue, steady, but it's not very fast.02:07
wpwrakkristianpaul: you mean like 100 ? or a lot less than 100 ?02:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: naw, my question is how you guess is the probability of getting something that works if you aren't at the fab to check at least the first pieces that come off the line02:08
kristianpaulwhat was amount of boards for initial production?02:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: so far, it sounds as if he's all set to smt, yet he has no testing process. not has he exercised one.02:09
kristianpaulah yes02:09
kristianpauli hope not 100 wpwrak ..02:09
kristianpaulbut for SMT that seems to be a minimun quantity i guess02:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: well, his plan it to make ~100 units. then see how things go. that's alright02:10
kristianpaulyeah i hope..02:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: he has about 500 PCBs. so he can make more boards if there's demand. so far, so good.02:11
wolfspraulthe probability for that to come out as a working product is low, I'd say02:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: the problem is that it would already be quite bad if those first ~100 board would all fail to work02:11
wolfspraulthat's the difficulty in hardware (manufacturing), you may even call it 'unfair', that a 1 penny mistake somewhere can render several thousand USD production results worthless02:11
wolfsprauland those losses _may_ be irrecoverable02:12
wolfspraulvery annoying02:12
wolfspraulthat's the #1 difference to software02:12
kristianpaulwpwrak: indeed02:12
wpwrakkristianpaul: in openmoko, we did it like this: when there was an smt run planned, a few hw and sw people went there. the fab ran one panel through the line, then waited.02:12
wolfspraulin software if you get something wrong, worst case your computer crashes, you restart02:12
wolfspraulin hardware you lost some irrecoverable cash -> bad02:12
wolfsprauland there is no mercy, the mistake may be tiny, yet the losses big02:12
wpwrakkristianpaul: the openmoko team tried to bring up the board. if it didn't work, they analyzed it for what would be the problem02:12
wolfspraulhaving said all that, ok the board is simple, but Tuxbrain is inexperienced - the smt people will have to guess a lot02:13
wolfspraulbottom line: high probability of failure02:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: if it did work, they would green light the rest of the productio run02:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: about my estimate too :-(02:14
wolfspraulthe nasty thing is that the problem always hits you from an unexpected angle02:14
wolfspraulmurphy's law I guess02:14
wpwrakkristianpaul: i don't remember those teams ever coming back complaining there had been nothing for them to do ... (of course, gta01/02/03 were more complex than atben/atusb, but still ...)02:15
wolfspraulit's amazing how many thousand (indeed) little things can go wrong02:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah. the only protection is testing.02:15
wolfspraulso yes, Tuxbrain needs to learn how to flash & test the boards, he needs to be at the line on production day, he needs to be suspicious and on high coffeine level, and press the _STOP_ button at any time he smells anything fishy.02:15
wolfspraulbetter press is one time too often than one time too few02:16
wpwrakright now, there are a few holes in the testing process i've set up, but i have the main ingredients02:16
wpwrakironically, the smt fab is something like half an hour from his headquarters, so it's not really a big deal for him to be there02:17
kristianpaulgood :-)02:17
wolfspraulin the m1 rc2 run, we had one such scary moment02:18
wolfspraulfirst board came off the line, Adam started testing02:18
wolfspraulsomething was strange, problem with the video-in crystal02:18
wolfspraulnow... he he. stress level increases :-)02:18
Action: wpwrak hates crystals02:18
wolfspraulgotta make a very quick decision: tell the guys to stop the line or not :-)02:18
wolfspraulproduction manager stays in the door and looks and you and awaits your call02:19
wolfspraulshit decision!02:19
kristianpaulfirst board came and SMT stoped until adam finished testing or was all in parallel?02:19
wpwrakit's the first board. of course they can hold it for a bit ...02:19
kristianpaulah ok02:19
wolfspraulpick & place is hammering away, argh...02:19
wolfspraul"Adam, can you test a bit faster?"02:19
wolfspraul"should we stop?"02:19
wpwrakthe solder paste can be out in the open for 0.5-1 hour without problems ...02:19
wolfspraulit became too scary so we pushed the red button at some point, for about 45 minutes02:19
wolfspraulthat means everybody on the line will be standing still doing nothing02:20
wpwrakgood :)02:20
wolfspraulalso not great, because they cannot switch (too many of your parts and settings everywhere)02:20
wpwrakthey probably spent two hours setting up the line. so what :)02:20
wolfspraulafter 45 minutes, it turned out it was a local problem with that crystal, and we let the run resume02:20
wpwrak.tw, right ?02:21
wpwrakgood. they're not rock bottom, gotta be hyper efficient or else02:21
wolfsprauloh it's all fine and professional. but someone has to make decisions.02:21
wpwraki expect spain to be even more relaxed in that regard02:21
wolfsprauland if those decisions are wrong, a small mistake can cause a large financial damage.02:22
wolfspraulthat's manufacturing...02:22
wolfspraulbecause once the stuff is assembled/made, it may (may) be impossible economically to fix it02:22
wolfspraulso it's cheaper to throw away and do another run02:22
wpwrake.g., a BGA turned some 90 degrees :)02:22
kristianpaul no no :-|02:22
wpwrakwell, already a QFN would be more than sufficient ;-)02:23
wolfspraulkristianpaul: what you don't like that idea?02:23
wolfspraulman you should hang out on production lines more. it's fun!02:23
wolfspraulpretty close to chaos management...02:23
kristianpaulit seems :-)02:23
wpwrakatudb has two of them. 1/16 chance to get both right on the first try ;-)02:23
kristianpaulwolfspraul: not that i dont liked it, but bit scaring indeed02:23
wolfsprauloh, everything will happen to you there02:24
kristianpaulhmm i remenber the the batery explode for sie run2?..02:24
wolfspraulthe unfortunate thing for a software guy like me, maybe the depressing part also, is that there is little to learn from some of those mistakes02:25
wolfspraulit's not like we are building a perfect production machine, and one day it will be bug free02:25
wolfspraulit will never02:25
wolfspraulit's just a never-ending chaos management exercise02:25
wolfspraulmaybe that's why the Chinese are so unbeatably good at it (including the ones in Taiwan of course)02:25
kristianpaulhmm, manually mounting..02:26
wpwraki guess you just have to design your process such that it can accommodate this kind of problems02:26
kristianpaulthats something to watch out02:26
wpwrakjust like working with unreliable people. you try to gauge them and increase your safety margin. if they do what's expected of them, great. if they don't, you already have a plan B.02:27
wpwrakjust good old risk management :)02:27
wpwrakthe nice thing about automated processes is that once you get them to work, they tend to continue working02:28
wpwrakyou still have to check from time to time if something drifted out of the safe range,02:29
wpwrakor if someone slipped you a bad batch of components, but in general, it quality is predictable02:29
wpwrakwith a manual process, you depend entirely on people catching errors. so if they've been out all night the day before, yield plummets. and so on.02:30
wolfspraulkristianpaul: keep in mind that we are discussing technical correctness now. but manufacturing is about economics mostly. every thing you manufacture only has a certain (small) value X, and the next one may pose new challenges, because it's all physical goods and physical processes.02:32
wolfspraulthose physical processes only become repeatable/predictable to a certain degree02:32
wolfspraulso that combined with the very small amount of money you can make for each one is hard02:32
wpwrakfunny. hackaday overtook slashdot today. well, the day is still young :)02:32
wpwrak(the UTC day, to be precise)02:33
wolfspraulI think you are continuously balancing technical correctness (perfection of technical process), and cost on the other side.02:33
wolfspraulit is really just amazing/unbelievable that you can make a whole smartphone for 30 USD02:34
wolfspraulhundreds of companies collaborate on that02:34
wpwrakindeed. electronics are almost scare in that regard :)02:34
wolfspraulso far we (copyleft hw) haven't found a way to successfully hook ourselves into this power yet, with our beloved free software :-)02:35
wolfspraulbut we'll get there...02:35
wpwrakwhat we need is volume ... once you have that, everything gets easier02:36
kristianpaulsmartphones are getting volume this days :-)02:37
wpwrakand everyone is at each other's throat ;-) naw, don't do smartphones, don't to tablets. waste of time.02:37
kristianpaul\. thinking? ;-)02:37
wolfspraulI fully agree on tablets, phones - right now.02:38
wolfspraulbtw.. about volume. I think volume is the mythical man month of hardware.02:38
wolfspraulvolume = investment02:38
kristianpaulgood point02:38
wolfspraullooking at volume is too superficial02:38
wolfspraulof course higher volume is 'nice'02:38
wolfspraulbut where does it come from?02:38
wolfspraulhigh volume = large order02:39
wpwrakof course :)02:39
wolfspraulsomeone has to put in a firm large order, with large down-payment02:39
wolfsprauland when can you do that?02:39
wpwrakorder or upfront investment02:39
wolfspraulwhen you have a strong forecast02:39
kristianpaulat first place i see volume as demand, but indeed you can create demand with good investement02:39
wolfspraulit's the same02:39
wolfspraulorder = investment (binds capital)02:39
wolfspraulwait wait02:39
wolfspraulthe volume is the consequence02:39
wpwrakif you get the kind of order that binds capital02:39
wolfspraulit's not the first thing02:39
wolfspraulthe first thing is potential market - how many of this thing can you sell?02:40
wolfspraulif the market is 100 pieces, investing for a 'volume' production of 1 million is very stupid02:40
wolfspraulnothing has _infinite_ market size02:40
wolfspraulso who determines that number?02:40
wpwrakthere are two types: order to build and order to ship. if you tell them there's a 2 month wait, they'll run02:40
wolfspraulthe market size = order = volume number02:40
wolfspraulthink about it02:40
wolfspraulwe assume every product can essentially have an infinite market, but of course that's wrong02:41
wolfspraulso every product has a theoretical maximum02:41
wolfspraullimited by all sorts of things, of course also strength of brand, strength of distributors/channel, and so on02:41
wpwrakmarket size is difficult on the lower end. if your target market is tens of millions, you can be off by quite a bit and it's still tens of millions.02:41
wolfspraulnow, once you determined that number, you invest against this number02:41
wolfspraulin anticipation that you can perfectly execute according to your market and demand forecast02:41
wpwrakin our case, it can be 100, 1k or 10k. and it's more or less random.02:42
wolfspraulmy point is: talk of volume clouds your vision02:42
wolfspraulvolume is a consequence02:42
wolfspraulhigher volume means higher investment02:42
wolfspraulthe higher investment needs to be recouped, so you have to sell that higher volume too02:42
wolfspraulotherwise you will loose even more money with 'higher volume'02:42
wolfspraulthis is assuming that we are not talking about technical difficulties that mandate higher volume02:43
wpwrakthe problem is that price expectations are usually based on high-volume products02:43
wolfspraulI'm not talking about that.02:43
wolfspraulsomeone is making a large investment02:43
wpwrakso if you make a USD 5000 iPhone killer, who will think it's a bargain ?02:43
wolfspraulbecause he is sure that he can sell a large number of this product02:43
wolfspraulcorrect. if your target market is 'iphone', then you can do all the numbers with a forecast of 10 million in the first year.02:44
wolfspraulbut then you also need a product that can actually sell to some customer who chooses your product over the iphone he would otherwise buy.02:44
wolfsprauland you need a big bad strategy for that, including strong brand, strong network pull, strong software, strong app market, strong lots of things.02:44
wpwrakthere's also contamination around the edges. e.g., would you buy a USD 100 wpan card, knowing that you can get some generic USB wlan for maybe USD 10-20 ?02:45
wolfspraulI tried to make a point about volume.02:45
wolfspraulit is not true "high volume = low unit price"02:45
wolfspraulthat's a very selective view02:45
wpwrakthe price is not only determined by your product. it's the market value of "comparable" products02:45
wolfspraulhigh volume requires large investment02:45
wolfspraulthe large investment indeed drives the unit price down02:46
wolfspraulyou made a large investment which you have to recoup02:46
wolfspraulunderstand the problem?02:46
kristianpauli think so02:46
wolfspraulso if you end up selling only 1% of what you thought you could sell, your "high volume = low unit price" will have very very badly failed ;-)02:46
wpwrakif the products your is being compared with are high volume, you'll have an extremely hard time establishing an honest by high price02:46
kristianpaulis not about volume :-)02:46
wolfsprauland in hardware it's super bad to have a lot of stock that doesn't sell sitting around, because your competitors constantly make better and better hardware02:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: yes, but that's the investor's point of view. are your customers investors ?02:47
wolfspraulso high volume may also increase the unit price02:47
wolfspraulunless your sales force is very strong, and the whole forecast and machine actually works02:47
wolfspraulmy customers will not benefit very long from a bankrupt company02:47
wolfspraulhigh volume = large investment02:47
wolfspraulthe idea "high volume = low unit price" is flawed02:47
wolfspraultoo superficial02:48
wolfspraulthen it's much more important to have a realistic forecast first02:48
wpwrakno, it's not. high volume allows you to buy cheaply02:48
wolfspraulyes but you have to pay = financing02:48
wpwrakthe question is if you can sell your high volume02:48
wpwrakif you can't, you're screwed, i agree02:48
kristianpaullarge investment = big bad strategy ?02:48
wolfspraulthen the high volume = low unit price idea will have badly backfired02:48
wolfspraulno no02:48
wolfspraulforecast needs to be correct02:49
wolfspraulnot too high, not too low02:49
wolfspraulthe volume and unit prices are just consequences of that then02:49
wpwrakbut if you volume is low and your per unit price is high, you people may not understand that02:49
wolfspraulone example from Apple02:49
wpwraks/you people/people/02:49
wolfspraulso they put Samsung chips into their first-gen iphones02:49
wolfspraulsupposedly paid about 20 USD / chip to Samsung02:49
wolfspraulthen they made a decision to do that part themselves02:50
wolfspraulthey bought patsemi for 200 million USD02:50
wolfsprauland a lot of other investments for several years02:50
wolfspraulthe total estimate I read what Apple spent before they were able to sell their first A4-based product was 1 billion USD!02:50
wolfspraulnow... compare that to the 20 USD they could also have paid to Samsung02:50
wolfspraulthat means they had a forecast that said "we will sell 50 million or more units of this"!02:51
wolfspraul50 million!02:51
wolfsprauland they made that decision back in 2008 or so. if you can zoom your mind back to 2008, you realize what an extraordinary entrepreneurial risk it is to make an investment decision based on a forecast of 50 million units before it pays off!02:51
wolfspraulso yes, superficially high volume = low unit cost. but practically going there means a large up-front investment, which needs to be recouped.02:52
wolfspraulif Apple would have sold only 5 million of those phones, each of their home-made cpus would have cost them 200 USD :-)02:53
wolfspraulwpwrak: of course if your unit price is high you may not sell. that's why there is such strong consolidation around a few product categories.02:53
wolfspraulyour customer will not care why your unit price is high or low02:54
wolfspraulso if it is high (if you are serving a niche market), your product better have some very unique features that will not let your customer take a more standard category product and tweak that instead.02:54
wpwrakyour price is basically bracketed between the production cost, which is driven by volume, and what the competition costs, which is - at least in part - driven by their volume02:55
wolfspraulproduction cost is driven by investment02:55
wolfspraulvolume is a consequence of that02:55
wolfspraulonce Apple decided to make the A4, they knew they were on a path that would cost them 1 billion USD02:55
wpwrakthat's why i keep on asking about progress with bringing investors aboard ;-)02:55
wolfspraulthey accepted that that could mean that the CPU in each iphone costs apple 200 USD02:55
wolfspraulif the iphone would not sell well02:56
wpwrakinvestment = liberty to think bigger02:56
wpwrak(unique features) yes, the more competition you can eliminate, the better. of course, you must pay attention that you're not painting yourself into a corner.02:57
kristianpaul1 billion to be recouped.. that will take a while i think02:59
wolfspraulmy point was that apple knowingly accepted the risk that their CPU price would go from 20 USD / piece to 200 USD / piece, if the iphone with that chip would 'only' have sold 5 million units.03:01
wolfspraulat 50 million (!) they would be down to the same price they could have paid Samsung03:01
wolfsprauland at 100 million or so the "high volume = low price" thing would have actually worked well in this case03:01
wpwraki think our problem at the moment is not so much a lack of market but an immature market. e.g., ben sells badly because it sells to a market that would either expect much more powerful products or at least more frequent updates. i'm sceptical about mm1, too. i like the technology, but i don't know if it can sell. maybe it'll need an mm2 or maybe an mm3 before it becomes a hit.03:02
wolfspraulsure it's risky. we need to market them well.03:02
wolfsprauland ideally find a stronger marketing partner, which I will try much harder once I have more m1 at hand, and more complete (with accessories and box and stuff).03:03
wpwraki think there's a lot of stuff with a good long-term prognosis but a poor short-term prognosis. the "grow by selling" approach doesn't really work there.03:04
wpwrakin my opinion, nanonote needs a financing horizon of about one year. the project is already about half a year in debt, so it's just about half an extra year. i'd consider milkymist even more long-term. i think the product focus is good, but nothing should depend on its commercial success (in the short term)03:11
wpwrakanyway, time for a bit of a nap :)03:16
phrare there a good quantity of nanonote available?  i thought maybe you are about to run out of them  b/c of slashdot or something03:17
wolfspraulphr: no way. if I run out of them I make more :-)03:21
zhichengxiangfu: Hi~06:13
zhichengxiangfu: Sorry for yesterday, my network is not very stable.06:14
xiangfuzhicheng: hi06:16
dvdkany qiots attending LinuxTAG? Going to be at linuxtag tomorrow (friday)12:11
wolfspraulqiots is good12:20
wolfspraulhow is linuxtag nowadays? last time I must have been there like 10 years ago, in Karlsruhe I think12:20
LunohoDit's a pity that linuxtag was moved to berlin12:21
dvdklinuxtag is very small12:33
dvdkbut some interesting talks maybe12:33
dvdksometimes one stumbles into OSS projects one didn't notice before. 12:34
dvdkthat's how i got involved with the nanonote12:34
kyakdvdk: heard about it on some conference?12:35
dvdkthis is the list of projects represented this year12:35
dvdkkyak: hackable-devices had a booth last linuxtag, showing nanonotes around and selling them for illegally cheap price12:35
dvdkso i bought the "pig in a poke"12:36
kyak98 USD? :)12:36
dvdkkyak: 80 EUR12:36
kyak80 EUR is 113.36 USD, but still ok :)12:36
dvdkkyak: yeah, but where is the 19% VAT in that ? :)12:36
kyakyep, and shipment, too12:37
dvdkand the nns they had there only booted to console, not much fucntionality12:37
dvdkbut at 80 eur, that didnt matter12:37
wpwrak(quiots) don quiote ;-)12:43
rozzinwpwrak: `Tilting at windmills since 2009'?13:49
kristianpaulbtw any update related with debian on the nanonote?15:03
kristianpaulis it posible to run X or xfdev...?15:03
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: init/main.c: try to run OpenWRT's /etc/preinit (HACK) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/4988bf217:37
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: IEEE 802.15.4: make debugging messages configurable http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/9f9b8e617:37
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: install/ben-wpan-config-2.6.38: disable noisy debugging and enable TUN http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/707af5f17:37
lunavorax_miniOk, for now, btrfs sucks18:22
lunavorax_miniI'm going to give it a try again when it really will be *stable*18:22
wpwrak... centuries pass ...18:24
kristianpaularhg, thist 9base code is lucent.. not gpl compatible !!18:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/dirtpan/: rewritten for simultaneous reception and transmission http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7e2c57620:04
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: install/: added build and usage instructions for dirtpan http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/601d1bf20:07
qi-bot[commit] David K├╝hling: emacs: make programming language comments colored by default http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/773dfe120:44
wpwrakrejon: how's LGM so far ? did you give people a look at the MM1 ?21:32
rejonnot yet21:34
wpwraks/give people/let people have/  # horrible language skills ...21:34
rejoni just finished up announcing all our other stuff21:34
rejonnow i completely focus21:34
rejonon mm121:34
rejonend of day 321:35
rejontomorrow is all about mm121:35
rejoni've been carrying my freedom box around21:35
wpwrakheh. last day :)21:35
rejonwith it inside21:35
rejonits ok21:35
rejoni'm juggling lots here21:35
wpwrakhow many people are there ?21:36
kristianpaulrejon, you need an assistant :-)21:37
wpwrakminions ! :)21:38
rejonyes, i need your support21:44
rejoni need help21:44
wpwrakwhat do you need from us ?21:47
rozzinHm. I just noticed that the default iocharset on my Ben is iso8859-1. :\22:45
rozzinDebian has set CONFIG_FAT_DEFAULT_IOCHARSET="utf8" for a while, now (hence all of my filenames are in UTF-8);23:01
rozzindo other distributions leave it as iso8859-1?23:01
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