#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-05-08

lekerneldubious article, though00:03
kristianpaul£125 still low.. even here00:03
kristianpauli dont have more to say wolfspraul00:03
kristianpauli dunno if you can live with that in china..00:04
wolfspraulsure I just try to understand what (in that list) you find bad00:04
wolfspraulI guess in a perfect world, we don't want to build a product where any worker, no matter where in the supply chain, is treated worse than you would treat your own son or daughter.00:05
rohkristianpaul: 125ukp? 90us$ is 55ukp or 63Euro00:05
wolfspraulthat's going to take a loooong time to get there though. of course we can start :-)00:05
kristianpaulroh: dont get it00:05
wolfspraulthe list in the guardian article is not very shocking to me. the guardian is doing really good China reporting actually, so maybe they don't want to publish sensationalist stuff.00:06
kristianpaulha,you'll wonder how i get to that article ;)00:06
wolfspraulovertime is the #1 problem, yes. but the kids want it, like crazy. I mean I see Lars being up (hacking?) until about 4 AM or so too.00:07
wolfspraulshould we stop him?00:07
rohkristianpaul: ah. sorry.. wrong article. now i see where the 125ukp are from00:07
roh142Euro that is.00:07
kristianpaulwell is free to choose00:08
wolfspraulso the overtime is something those kids want. they will leave the factory if the factory won't allow them to work 14 hours a day - if they want to.00:08
kristianpaulsome times you just cant.. or00:08
wolfspraulyou could argue that they are under a lot of social or society pressure to make money.00:08
wolfspraulbut a single factory definitely cannot change that, even Foxconn and Apple cannot.00:08
kristianpaulis different being up to late when you lik soemthing.. and when not00:08
wolfspraulno trust me, I have been at many factories, I lived in dorms. they enjoy what they do - a lot.00:09
wpwrakkristianpaul: the "confession letter" ... maybe the hairdryer is considered a fire hazard00:09
kristianpaulwell, good for them !00:09
wolfspraulI am talking specifically about young Chinese workers (16-22) in the electronics industry.00:09
kristianpaulhappynes is unique :-)00:09
wolfspraulalso about hygiene00:09
wolfspraulChinese have all sorts of 'strange' hygienic beliefs.00:09
wolfspraulfire in your body etc.00:10
wolfspraulthe hairdryer sounds very much like that to me, like blowing something bad into the air, infecting others.00:10
kristianpaulyeah i should be aware of that context too00:10
wolfspraulalso keep in mind that a lot of people sleep together in small rooms, the hygienic rules are very strict00:10
kristianpaulwolfspraul: why the enjoy? that part.. there must be somehing clue on all this00:11
wolfsprauland rooted in Chinese beliefs of course, they are not doing this since yesterday00:11
wolfspraulthey make their first own money!00:11
wolfspraulthey are very proud of that00:11
wolfspraulimagine you are a kid in some village somewhere in China00:11
wolfspraulthat's a bad place! the ngo folks should live there for a month :-)00:11
wolfspraulnow you get a job at that shiny factory in the shiny megacity00:11
wolfsprauland you make your first own money00:11
wolfspraulyou can go shopping all these shiny things, clothes, fashion accessories, cellphone (well they probably have that already)00:12
wolfspraulthey try to make as much money as possible in the least time possible00:12
kristianpaulhow long this "kids" stays on a factory?00:12
wolfspraulthen back to their village, and think about the next step. which is often marriage (girls), or higher schooling (boys)00:13
wolfspraulI have rarely/never seen them there for more than 4 years00:13
kristianpauldo they ever realize that money is not all in life?..00:13
kristianpaulor may be it is for them..00:13
Action: kristianpaul sigh00:13
wolfspraulthey are just excited about these new things they are seeing00:13
wolfspraulremember they are very young, 16-22, coming from the countryside00:13
kristianpaulsure, that happens :-)00:13
kristianpauland after the 4 year they move to another factory?00:14
wolfspraulyes actually, I just realize. those ngo guys should have accompanied a worker back to his hometown. compare with the living conditions there :-)00:14
kristianpaulwhen you usually get marriage in china btw?00:14
wolfspraulno the workers are all young00:14
kristianpaulyeah, all is relative00:14
wolfspraulfactories are not really offering a career path00:15
wolfspraulworkers come and go, they are just human material00:15
kristianpauljust a temporary jump of money then00:15
wolfspraulso the article is all correct, and definitely westerners should understand and care about that when they buy products00:15
wolfspraulso they stay a few years, then they need to think about the next step00:15
wolfspraulsince they will have saved quite a bit of money, they actually have a lot of options, especially higher level schooling00:16
kristianpaulwow, nice (higher level schooling)00:16
kristianpaulthats not so bad then :)00:16
wolfspraulI'm not going to talk you into this being paradise on earth :-)00:17
kristianpaulsure not00:17
wolfspraulit's 1000 times better than a North Korean slave labor camp, for sure00:17
wolfsprauland probably factory life for them is better than life back at their village00:18
kristianpaulI was making the comment considering the context pointed (countryside etc..)00:18
kristianpaulall is relative, too many ecosystems00:18
wolfspraulif I were them, what would bug me the most is the strong social pressure, first from the family in CHina, and then from society at large00:18
wolfspraulbut I wouldn't blame my employer for that, that kinda makes no sense00:18
wolfspraulI've thought about this and I have a clear goal now. no job you are paying for should be worse than a job you could imagine your own child to do (or yourself of course).00:21
wolfspraulthat does need to take into consideration that people are different, different age, different money requirements, different health, different social environment, and so on.00:21
wolfspraulso there will still be a huge diversity and inequality. but we should not treat someone else worse than we treat our loved ones.00:22
wolfspraulunfortunately China doesn't score very high on this idea :-)00:22
wolfspraulif one of those kids has to rely on their employer to take care of them, they are indeed screwed00:23
wolfspraulbut they know that00:23
wolfspraulit's just a stupid money source for them00:23
wolfspraulloyalty is exactly 000:24
kristianpaulthey r smart ;)00:24
wolfspraulmany factories have something like 80% attrition rate (80% of workers in January are gone in December)00:24
wpwrakthey probably enjoy more social liberties at the factory, well away from the family, even if the factory would be considered very rigid by our standards00:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: (treat your employees as if they were your own kinds) that seems a bit too idealistic to me. well, depending on how stern a father you are ;-)00:28
wolfspraulthat's just my conclusion after looking at this problem from different angles. if from the perspective of those workers their job is truly good and helpful to them, and if you were their father and you would think that a good thing is happening, why would you want to remove that?00:30
wolfspraulit can improve further, but first of all what's good or bad is a subjective thing, and depends on your perspective00:30
wolfspraulthere are many cases where it's out of the question that a bad thing is happening, from everybody's perspective. so those can be improved first.00:31
wolfspraulstory from last Ben NanoNote run00:33
wolfspraulI stay there until 2-3 AM or so, let's say 'normal' time for a hacker to call it a day, right?00:33
wolfspraulat that time the run was still going on, everybody there. anyway, I leave, get some sleep.00:34
wpwraksure. what's the meaning of the time of day anyway :)00:34
wolfspraulget up around 9 AM, go out, nice sunshine, drink a coffee in a small street shop00:34
wolfspraulwho walks by (on the way to the factory) - the head worker girl I know from the run00:34
wolfspraulI say "wow, that's early! You've been there when I left. When did you leave?"00:34
wpwrak(father) well, you may have different ambitions than their parent and so on.00:34
wolfspraulanswer: 6 AM!00:35
wolfspraulshe left the factory at 6 AM, and overtook me again sipping my coffee, because she wanted to be there at 9 AM, but was a little late (!)00:35
wolfspraulman man00:35
wolfspraulI finished my coffee first, showed up around 10 or so :-)00:35
wpwraki fear for the yield on that day ;-)00:35
wolfspraulwell that was an extreme day even for their standards00:36
wpwrakgood ;)00:36
wolfspraulbut trust me - she loves her work00:36
wolfspraulthe money she makes rather00:36
wolfsprauland it's a lot!00:36
wolfspraulshe now also convinced her sister to join the same factory00:36
Action: kristianpaul will consider drink coffer more often..00:37
wolfspraula lot of China reporting mixes two things together - hourly wage, and overtime00:37
wpwrakkristianpaul: to pick up factory girls ? ;-)00:37
kristianpaulwpwrak: he :p00:37
wolfspraulso they do some math saying "hourly wage is 1.50 USD, monthly wage is 200 USD"00:38
wolfspraulthen, often in the same article, they say "we saw workers who had 100 overtime hours"00:38
wolfspraulso yeah00:38
wolfsprauleither or00:38
wolfspraulthe actual paid-out monthly wage is higher than when you do the math with the normal working hours00:38
wolfspraulbecause nobody works like that00:39
wpwrakdoes overtime pay more than regular hours ?00:39
wolfspraulforgot, this is tricky00:39
wolfspraulthe government wants to reduce overtime00:39
wolfspraulso the factories are forced to pay less for overtime than for regular hours00:39
wolfspraulbut they find all sorts of tricks to circumvent that00:39
wpwraki know vacations and weekends do. or at least they cost more. not sure how much of this trickles all the way down to the workers.00:39
wolfspraulit's the other way round here00:40
wolfspraulthe government tries to stop the overtime excesses00:40
wolfspraulso they force the factories to pay less (!) during the night etc00:40
wolfspraulof course that doesn't work00:40
wolfspraulbecause on paper maybe it's less, but the factory finds some other way to send the money to their workers00:40
wpwraknice. employers who invent tricks to pay _more_. now there's an example ! :)00:40
wolfspraulbottom line that girl makes maybe 400-500 USD per month00:41
wolfspraulwhich given that all regular life articles are dirt cheap allows her for a very comfortable life in China, and build up savings too00:42
wolfsprauland in China it's simple - you are a 'good' girl/boy when you save 50% of your salary!00:42
wolfspraulat least the number is easy to remember00:42
kristianpaulhum.. i  need do more savings :-)00:44
wolfspraulyou get the social pressure from me now? :-)00:44
wolfspraulthat 50% thing is one of the endless kinds of social pressure exerted here. horrible imho00:45
wolfspraulkristianpaul: just consider I never told you :-)00:45
kristianpaulbtw, is also healthcare dirt cheap?00:46
wolfsprauldifficult. some very basic healthcare is cheap or even free, yes.00:46
wolfspraulon top of that if you want better healthcare you are quickly piling up huge amounts, and worst case you even fall for some scam/fraud.00:46
wolfspraullike for example simple antibiotics cost 1-2 USD for one pack00:48
wolfspraulin Germany the same thing costs 40 USD, in the US 100 USD00:48
wolfspraulin that case a lot of the cost in Germany or US is the whole bloated system. the pill itself could indeed be much cheaper.00:49
wolfspraulbut then there are other things let's say a difficult surgery, and you need a very clean room, you need very clean and high-precision instruments, etc. etc.00:49
wolfsprauland they will cost, no matter where you are. most of the technical equipment in a Chinese hospital is from the US or Europe. GE, Siemens, etc.00:49
kristianpauldamm just one 82 ohm resistor :-(00:50
wpwrakprobably still a bargain compared to the US. i wonder how much there is simply insurance against malpractice lawsuits00:50
kristianpaulwhat i just dint go to the electronic shop my self...00:50
wpwrakkristianpaul: you can probably also use 1.2k : 560 : 100 instead of 1.0 k : 470 : 8200:52
kristianpauldont have 560 ohm..00:53
wpwrakor 890 : 390 : 6800:53
kristianpaulha, those are crazy common values00:53
kristianpaulmay be i can scratch a 100 ohm resistor i have00:54
wpwrakit helps to just go to the shop and buy, say, 100 of each E12 value from 10 Ohm to 1 MOhm :) resistors are so cheap, it's not like spending real money. and you'll never have to worry about not having the right resistor around.00:54
wpwrakyou have 1000 and 470 ?00:55
wpwrakwith 1k : 470 : 100, you get: 0.3 V, 0.58 V, and 0.79 V00:55
kristianpaulyeah i need go do that00:55
wpwrakso you'd over-drive the VGA input a bit (it's nominally 0-0.7 V). not sure if this is a problem.00:56
kristianpauli just have one analog and lcd monitor..00:57
kristianpauli can wait monday better :)00:57
wpwraki doubt it would damage the monitor. but you may get weird colors.00:58
kristianpaulah ok :p00:58
wpwrakah, and better try it with the lcd monitor. you could damage an analog monitor with weird timings.00:58
urandom__you really get a resolution of 1024x768 with the ubb-vga stuff?01:05
wpwrakurandom__: yup :) there's a bit of jitter, so i wouldn't try to read a small font at 1024x768, but there are that many pixels on the screen01:08
urandom__i would not have expected it to get such high resolutions01:09
wpwrakyeah, the mmc controller helped a lot. without it, it would have maxed out at 640x48001:12
kristianpaulwpwrak: is posible to read a PDF?01:12
kristianpaulyou just uncover the dma oscurity, and an open door for new apps01:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: at the moment, you can only display the test image or the lcd content (in 640x480 mode), or a single PPM image (no slide show yet)01:13
kristianpaullike doing SDR with a 4bit ADC/DCA.. who know..s01:13
kristianpaulwell i can hardcode a presentation ;)01:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: but you could covert one page of a PDF to PPM and display it. or add a slide show feature and pre-convert multiple pages.01:14
kristianpaulokay i need to read more about PPM first :)01:15
wpwrakit's a very simple rgb image format. all the usual tools (gimp, imagemagick, and of course pbmplus) can handle it01:19
kristianpaulhi slie01:20
sliejust wanted to say hello just found this on slashdot thoght it was cool01:21
sliethought *01:21
kristianpaulwellcome :)01:21
wpwrakslie: thanks ! :)01:22
slieI don't yet know a lot about this stuff but major is EE.01:22
slieI was wondering does this just mirror a display?01:23
wpwrakit builds an internal frame buffer with the bit pattern it needs to send out, and then transfers pixel data from this internal frame buffer01:27
wpwraknow, the content can come from different sources. at the moment, there are three image generators: the test image, one that takes a content of the ben's little screen (320x240) and puts it in a VGA-sizes frame buffer, and01:28
wpwraklast but not least one that takes a PPM image of the same resolution as the frame buffer and converts it to this internal format01:28
wpwrakat the moment, the displaying keeps the system 100% busy, so you couldn't, say, run an X server on that vga. but i hope that we can still improve that.01:29
wpwrakas an example, i ran the konqueror web browser with the qi-hw home page in a 1024x768 window, dumped the content, converted it to PPM, and displayed it with ubb-vga: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/ubb-dma-web.jpg01:30
wpwrakwhat should be relatively easy is to do things like slide shows. just precompute all the images and then feed them to the display loop.01:31
wpwraks/to do/to do it/01:31
wpwrakgah s/it/is/01:33
wpwraksomeone need more sleep :)01:34
sliethis is really cool, I wish I could do some of this stuff really opens my mind!01:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think the piwik chart now needs a logarithmic scale :)01:35
kristianpaulslie: you have a ben already?01:36
kristianpaulben nanonote*01:36
slieI don't, :)01:37
wpwrakslie: UBB is actually meant as a means for making it easy to do experiments. we have a few other things that use that slot as well, e.g., this wireless card http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/2boards-20110305.jpg01:37
wpwrakslie: so there are also a few software examples that show how to use it01:37
sliewhat language?01:38
wpwrakslie: C. i think someone also tried to write something (not so timing-critical) in python but i'm not sure how this went.01:39
wpwrakah, and here's another really simple board. this actually predates UBB: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/blinken/blinken-100831.jpg01:39
slieawsome, im going to go look into this stuff I really like it.01:40
wpwrakslie: great ! the qi-hardware project, despite its name, actually doesn't have a lot of hardware people, so some expertise would also be hotly welcome :)01:46
kristianpaulyup :)01:48
kristianpaulare you good with dsp btw? ;)01:48
wpwrakkristianpaul: trying to separate noise from signal in some mysterious raw gps data dump ? :)01:50
kristianpaulhehe, not yet, actually osgps take care fo that for now01:52
wpwrakkristianpaul: so have you gotten a fix yet ?01:53
kristianpaulneed more data for that01:54
kristianpauli just have some miliseconds dump01:54
wpwrakthat gps takes forever to get a first fix, doesn't it ? :)01:54
kristianpaul:-(  no no01:54
wpwrakcould you extract time from the dump ?01:54
kristianpauli dont have too much data but for the last dump i got, it seems to cath some satellites01:55
kristianpaulwere just few miliseconds...01:55
kristianpaulnext dump will be  some seconds at least 30..01:55
kristianpauli need catch satellites PRN before extract any navigational data wich is the easy part actually01:56
kristianpaulyeah, i had been slow on this, i had to learn lots of things...01:57
kristianpaulnow just finishing the milkymist core, i hope it works.. at least better than in SIE, now that i fixed some bad habits during acquisition.01:58
wpwrak(dump size) best if you can get 60 seconds. that way, you can be sure that for any satellite you find you will have an entire frame01:58
kristianpaulhe well, the ideal will be at least 30 mminutes if i want a full almanac i remenber01:59
kristianpaulbut i can cheat and load some updated almanacs from the web :)02:00
wpwraki think once you can fully decode the first minute, the rest will be easy :)02:00
kristianpauls/noise/pseudo randon noise02:11
kristianpauli remenber DocScrutinizer pointe a nices graphs about that process time ago02:13
kristianpaulsomething like this  i think http://home.earthlink.net/~cwkelley/receiv3.gif02:14
rjeffrieskristianpaul is there a description of your GPS project online? I am not sure if you are doing software defined radio for gps? or some hardware assist02:20
kristianpauli dont do the rf front end and some downconvertion and data serialization, the rest is software for now02:22
kristianpauloffline processing, you can check this page http://home.earthlink.net/~cwkelley/receiver_operation.htm02:22
kristianpaulgive you a good idea i think02:23
kristianpaulwpwrak: when you said extract time, it was about clock or navigation data?02:26
wpwrakkristianpaul: the data sent by the satellited (in the 1st subframe)02:34
kristianpaullike TOW and such?02:39
wpwrakyeah, "time within the week", wikipedia calls it02:51
kristianpaulokay now make the testbench03:04
wolfspraulyeah the chart at the bottom of the homepage is funny indeed03:10
wolfspraulI wish we had 5000 visitors each day03:10
rjeffrieswpwrak does 4760 support 2x 8:10 interfaces (I think ans is yes?)03:12
wpwrakrjeffries: even 3x if the manual is to be trusted03:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: have any found their way to the shop yet ? (if it was actually reachable :)03:13
rjeffrieswow the one day bump in visits to home page is cool03:13
wpwrakwe may get another wave around now - us west coast evening03:14
rjeffrieswill 4760 have more free gpios or about same as current chip03:14
kristianpaulrjeffries: are you interested on 4760 for some particular porpuse?03:15
wpwrakrjeffries: a lot more. the 4720 has 90. the 4760 has 16803:15
Action: kristianpaul need a dual cored xburst03:16
kristianpaulor milkymist...03:16
kristianpaulbut that need better bus support :-)03:16
rjeffriesisny 4760 dueal core?03:16
kristianpauli think...03:16
wpwrakkristianpaul: i hope he's collecting investors or sponsors for our cause ;-)03:16
rjeffrieswpwrak just thinking is all03:17
rjeffrieswould a design simular to atben that was built0in to a future NN be able to use GPIOs rather than specifically the sfio stuff03:18
rjeffriesI wonder what mass produced products there are that use 476003:19
kristianpaulmay be 4760 will have built-in wlan rjeffries ;)03:19
wpwrakwhat atben really wants is spi. sp it should use an spi port. the 4760 has two of them.03:19
kristianpaulrjeffries: did you tried asking xbusrt (seriouslly, this questions are good to ask then)03:19
kristianpauli was thinking wich mobile phones are using at xbust chip atm..03:20
rjeffriesI do not know anybody there and do not read/write Chinese03:20
rjeffriesfrom what wolfsprau1l has said in past Ingenic is n ot exactlt open to strathgers03:21
kristianpaulrjeffries: come on, english is wellcome everywhere ;)03:21
wolfspraulwpwrak: oh sure, a nice batch of orders, maybe about 6 or 8 now, and probably some more with David03:21
wolfspraulwhen slashdot covered the launch there were about 100, if I remember correctly03:22
wpwrak(spi on 4760) hmm ... or maybe just one. manual seems inconsistent once more03:22
wolfspraulthis time maybe 10 in the end :-)03:22
wpwrakwolfspraul: whee ! a warm meal for the whole family ! ;-)03:23
wpwrakheh, 4760pm is great. there are three versions of the number of spi interfaces: the overview drawing and the feature list has two. the section on the spi controller has one. the register map and the end has a whole three of them.03:28
wpwrakheisenberg would be so proud :)03:28
wpwrakgpio map has two. so maybe that's the real truth. alas, it seems that that the multiplexing is such that using both SPI means losing one SD/MMC.03:30
rjeffriesI wonder if this tablet is hipping yet?03:31
rjeffrieslooks like Borders book store sells it03:33
rjeffrieswonder if it has been rooted03:34
rjeffriesBest Buy for $170 (Velocity Cruz 7 inch tablet based on 4760)03:36
kristianpaulbuy one !!03:36
kristianpaulnot kidding, i dont have the money or i will, but worth to disassemble take pics, and start replacing uboot...03:37
rjeffriesactually just saw where it was at one poiny on sale for $99 and yes it has been rooted. now it needs VGA ;)03:43
wpwrakrjeffries: buy one, play with it. when you get bored with it, send it to kristianpaul :)03:45
rjeffriesI'll see if I can fine a cheap one03:47
rjeffriesSeems to sell fro $120 some places03:55
rjeffries• Full color TFT display03:56
rjeffries• 7” diagonal 800x600 screen03:56
rjeffries• Android 2.003:56
rjeffries• 256MB RAM, 256MB internal storage03:56
rjeffries• Supports ePub, PDF, TXT, PDB, HTML reader ?les03:56
rjeffries• MP3, WMA, AAC, WAV audio support03:56
rjeffries• MPEG-4, H.26403:56
rjeffries• JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP image support03:56
rjeffries• 802.11 b/g wi?03:56
rjeffries• Li-Ion battery - up to 10+ hours of life, 24+ standby03:56
rjeffries• 4GB Bundled SD card03:56
rjeffriesevidently no USB but decent amount of RAM and has SD slot03:57
rjeffriesreference: http://www.staples.com/Velocity-Micro-Cruz-eReader/product_91315003:58
ManoftheSeaHey, saw your slashdot story05:21
ManoftheSeaNick hack!05:21
ManoftheSeathat's all.05:21
wolfspraulthat was nice!05:24
FusinGood mooorninggg vietnaaam07:07
Fusinor better: Godd morning Qiots ;)07:07
Fusinsuggestion for http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/index.html: Group the Index by year, then subgrouped by month, would e a nice feat. ;)07:10
wpwrak"qiots" heh ;-)08:34
wpwrakFusin: yeah, structuring the IRC log archive index a bit like the mailing list archive index would probably be nice. the current list of all days in more than a year is kinda intimidating08:37
kyakthat would involve editing of source code of log2html.py, as it doesn't provide such setting08:43
kyakor switching to some other log parser08:43
Fusinyeah, i thought so (readed somewhere that it was a script building the log) alas i don't know nothing about python, except the real ones are dangerous ....08:45
kyak# TODO: split by year/month.  Perhaps split off old logs into separate pages09:03
kyaksee, we can just wait for developer to do his job :)09:03
wpwraknice. they'll be happy about your patch :)09:03
kyaki fear that the patch would be trivial.. might have a look09:03
kyakneed to recall some html skillz :)09:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, if you're using any of the ubb-vga pictures from my web page for the monthly news, you can find full resolution versions by just removing the -small or -medium09:25
wolfsprauloverloaded, but yeah, definitely. thanks!09:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: plan b, skip may and aim for a timely june update ?09:29
wpwrakwolfspraul: with the date drifting, the "leap month" will happen sooner or later anyway09:29
wpwrakroh: that rfid thingy .. you wondered about the "decent antenna". who says it's decent ? :-) over a few cm, almost anything somehow "works""09:38
lekernel(from the slashdot comments .... )09:43
kyakhmm, ok, seems that grouping by year/month in web irclogs is working now14:25
kyakat the same time css for milkymist logs were fixed (/mmlogs/irclog.css was not accessible)14:27
wpwrakwow, with foldable menus even14:28
kyakyeah, isn't it how you depicted it? :)14:28
wpwrakalthough a simple table may be more efficient. one row per month, 28-31 columns.14:28
kyakwpwrak: do you mean, like a calendar?14:29
kyakbtw, the turandot time is 5 minutes ahead14:30
wpwraklooks cool, though :) the +- is a bit confusing. it's usually + when folded, - when open.14:30
kyaki suggest installing ntp server14:30
wolfspraulfeel free14:30
kyakwpwrak: yeah, maybe it's the next step, cause it would require changing some css14:31
wpwrakkyak: (calender) yup. put the day number in the title/header row, and Mon/Tue/Wed/... or M/T/W/... in the per month rows.14:31
wpwrakthe next feature would then be an indicator of relative activity, e.g., a small bar in each day/month/year14:33
wpwraksuch things can be dangerous time sinks ;-)14:33
kyakwpwrak: i know what you mean, but it could be ugly.. see for yourself: http://logs.xtmb.info/eggdrop/14:34
wpwrakugly colors :)14:34
kyakas for activity statistics, there are powerful irc log analysers, like pisg.. I'm not sure if we really need them :)14:34
wpwrakirc activity seems to more or less track mailing list activity. e.g., last month was eerily quiet both on irc and the list. i actually downloaded all the irc logs and plotted their size14:36
wpwrakalso, uncompressed size and compressed size follow each other very closely for relative changes14:36
wolfspraulkyak: oh, I just see I get a new eggdrop error, ending in IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/srv/irc/irclog2html/src/irclog2html/listCollapse.js'14:36
kyakwolfspraul: lemme check it..14:37
wolfspraulyou can see such messages if you subscribe to the mailman site list, basically all admin mails go there14:38
wolfspraulyou don't need to, you would just load more admin junk on you14:38
wolfspraulbut that's where such mails go14:38
kyakwolfspraul: i think that was a one-time error, i changed the file permissions afterwards14:38
kyakshould be fine now :)14:38
wolfspraulif you want to subscribe to ahead, subscription is moderated though because information in those mails _may_ compromise security (it shouldn't, but you never know, they are error mails...)14:39
wpwrakkyak: (table format) i had something of this kind of style in mind: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/tab.html14:39
wolfspraulok perfect14:39
wpwrakkyak: looks a bit crowded. maybe better with just one letter per day, and maybe colors to highlight the weekends or the sundays14:39
kyakwpwrak: looking at it.. are you sure it's more preferable than expandable lists?14:41
kyakmm logs (http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs/) are in the same style now, btw14:42
wpwrakmaybe this is better ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/tab2.html14:44
wpwrakfields would have to be centered, though14:44
kyaki wonder if there are designers on the channel who can advice the best way to represent a bunch of irc logs :)14:48
wpwrakbe careful what you ask for ;-)14:49
wolfspraulomg - kyak is unleashing the designers...15:00
DocScrutinizerto me the mgedmin stuff is just fine15:04
DocScrutinizerwaaaaay better than e.g #openmoko borked useless irclogs15:05
Action: Fusin greets all Qiots ;)15:06
kyakanyway, i agree that ± is somewhat confusing, and since it can't be changed to +/-, maybe ’ will be more general..15:09
kyakwe'll see in couple of minutes :)15:09
kyakFusin: you started all that!!15:10
Fusinhuh? moi????15:10
Fusinwhat did i do?15:10
kyakFusin: http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/ :)15:11
Fusinaah ;)15:11
Fusinnice :D15:11
Fusinany improvement is good.15:12
Fusinsoon I will ask massive boring questions (maybe)15:13
Fusinwhen I'll try to install SDK and start learning C :P15:13
Action: Fusin installs X-Chat so I can access freenode with real chat-client instead of webchat...15:16
fusin_on_JoliOShelo, me again ;)15:17
Fusinso me leaves. no need for clons here.... :D15:18
wpwrakkyak: how about this ? :) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/tab3.html (should enforce a sans serif fonts - firefox uses one with serifs and it doesn't look as good as in konqueror)15:21
Fusinalso in chrome it looks 'bad'15:22
Action: wpwrak grumbles15:23
kyakwpwrak: yeah, the layout of table is broken in Opera, too :)15:23
wpwrakkyak: oh, the whole layout ? not just an ugly font ?15:24
wpwrakkyak: i admit that the markup i used is a little rought. e.g., no </whatver> tags15:24
kyakhm, i can't determine what font is it15:25
wpwrakat least it impresses upon you just how many days there are in a year ;-)15:26
kyakwpwrak: here15:27
wpwraknow with sans serif: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/tab4.html15:28
wpwrakouch ! :)15:28
kyakthe same font15:29
kyakand layout :)15:29
wpwrakbetter now ?15:29
kyakjust absolutely the same :)15:29
wpwrakyeah, the font should be a little bolder, i guess. yours is too skinny15:29
kyaki already have sans font in opera15:30
kyakso it doesn't matter if you enforce it15:30
wpwrakah, there was a typo. now it should be better15:30
kyakyeah, the layout is OK15:31
wpwrakvictory !! :)15:31
kyaknow try to find and click the log for the 27th of Sep :)15:31
kyakit's too plural15:32
wpwrakbetter like this ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/tab5.html15:33
wpwrakthe nice thing is that you could easily combine it with a search function. enter a keyword and all logs containing it are highlighted :)15:36
kyakin this table, how would i find a yesterday's log?15:37
wpwrakand you could add a hover function: if you hover over a day, a sidebar shows the top ten most relevant words of that day.15:38
wpwrakoh, the table would end with today15:38
kyakand highlighting matched logs is not so good, after clicking the link it would lead you away from the overview15:38
wpwrakor show all not yet reached days in a different color15:38
wpwrak"open in new tab" ?15:39
kyakthat's like when searching with google, it would only return the list of sites :)15:40
wpwraksure. but that's a general web browser ui problem15:40
wpwrakclick-to-follow removes what you had before. only click-to-open-apart (tab, window, frame) doesn't15:41
wpwrakalso your tree view has a similar issue: if i get a day's log and then return, the tree is folded again15:42
kyakit's solvable :)15:42
wpwrakah, in konqueror ;-)15:42
wpwrakin firefox it stays open. interesting.15:42
kyakcause it's realoaded in konqueror15:43
kyakbut it can be solved with cookies, listCollapse.js has such capability15:44
wpwrakwith the narrow tree view, you could also use a frame for the actual log15:45
kyakyeah, that free space from the right asks for something to be put there15:48
wpwrakkyak: anyway, here's my table generator, in case you have some use for it: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/tblgen.pl15:48
wpwrak(space) maybe the most relevant words ;-)15:49
wpwrakrelevance could be something like  frequency_in_month/overall_frequency15:50
kyakyour script doesn't consider leap years :)15:50
wpwrakso if one month gets a lot of talk about slashdot, it would pop up15:50
wpwrakkyak: there's still plenty of time to fix that bug ;-))15:51
wpwrak(relevance) and you may want to put some threshold. so that the rankking isnot dominarted bty ohdd tyypos15:54
kyakwpwrak: let's leave irc logs alone :) for irc stats, there are plenty of other tools.. Btw, have you seen this: http://www.jibble.org/piespy/15:56
kyakall of these are pretty funny in the beginning.. but then noone cares about it15:57
wpwrak(piespy) very cute !15:58
qwebirc69793hi could you give me the lcs details15:59
qwebirc69793the one used in the nanonote15:59
qwebirc69793anyone here??15:59
kyakyou are so fast and anxious, i though you are looking for lsd details :)16:00
wpwrakkyak: "how do i come down from this horrible trip *now* ?" ? ;-)16:01
wpwrakqwebirc69793: have you looked at this page ? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/LCD16:01
qwebirc69793@larsc its lcd16:01
qwebirc69793or lcm16:02
kyakwpwrak: it seems like this trip is unstoppable..16:06
larscqwebirc69793: it's a gpm940b with an ili9320 controller16:07
wpwrakkyak: seems that the answer stopped him :)16:21
kyakwpwrak: the ping was too slow for him :)16:21
wpwrak... with those hectical times ;-)16:25
Fusinay ay16:28
Fusin+i ?17:01
Fusinok, I leave now, packing mobilhome & drive to work, cu tom or ow ;)17:26
wpwrak~5500 visits to qi-hw.com yesterday, ~4200 today ... not too bad22:43
mthespecially a day after that's pretty good22:44
mthoften news articles cause a high but very short burst22:44
wpwrakthat may be because of the weekend. spreads it out a little more. we may get another wave for the US west coast evening22:48
wpwrakgrmbl. piwik doesn't want to give me hourly results22:51
wpwrakit says that most visitors were from the us. on monday, the news may spread to secondary places. maybe we'll get better global coverage then.22:58
wpwrakactivity is slowly declining throughout the day, it seems23:00
mthpeople looking for a machine that runs Linux don't seem to use Bing :)23:17
wpwraknor IE ;-)23:18
--- Mon May 9 201100:00

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