#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2011-05-07

wpwrakhmm, do these looks sufficiently pr-grade ? (warning, high resolution, up to  3.5x2.6 Mpixel) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/ubb-vga-pub-1024.jpg http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/ubb-vga-pub-v2.jpg00:21
wpwrakLunaVorax_mini: btw, regarding your idea of a "reduced" ben: one problem is that removing features doesn't necessarily make a device cheaper. e.g., if you wanted to buy a ben without the keyboard, it would actually be more expensive to provide that than a regular one.00:22
kristianpaulpr-grade... well if you ignore the pink-white-like in letters and lines00:25
kristianpaul(ubb-vga-pub-v2.jpg) nice pic !00:26
kristianpaulbit  scaring, but nice :-)00:26
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah, maybe i should try to reduce the red a bit ...00:28
wpwrakmmh. just keeps on looking shitty. i think i'll wait for daylight and try again.00:37
wpwrakor fix the color balance on the screen :) now, recharging the camera battery ...00:46
wpwrakanother try, less rosy this time: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/ubb-vga-pub-1024.jpg03:04
kristianpaulnice :-)03:06
wpwrak*hmm* now, how to upload them into the accursed wiki ?03:09
kristianpaulah.. thats the easy part :)03:10
wpwrakcreate a (dead) image link, then follow the link ? must be that, because i don't see an "upload" anywhere03:11
kristianpaul(upload) are you logged in?03:12
wpwrakno, i don't have an account. one stupid password less to recover :)03:13
kristianpauli see03:15
wpwrak@#$%! "You must be logged in to upload files." :-((03:15
wpwrakactually, there's an easier way ;-) i just link to downloads.qi-hardware.com :)03:16
wolfspraulI will upload some of the vga pics for the news anyway03:16
wolfspraulthe reason I haven't done the 05-01 news yet is that I keep exercising my mind over the m1 launch, or lgm press release etc.03:16
wolfspraulthat sucks up all my story telling capacity...03:16
wpwrakheh :) how are these coming along ? are the muses with you ? :)03:17
wolfspraullgm = libre graphics meeting03:17
kristianpaulwpwrak: (link) hum, i wonder if images can be externally linked03:17
wolfspraulJon is planning to use/show m1, and we wanted to document that properly in a press release03:18
wolfspraulwell I'm not complaining, I enjoy going through the process but it's hard work03:18
wolfspraulwhat we've been doing so far is not good enough, it's mostly along the lines of "this is so good that you have to love it"03:18
wolfspraulMilkymist tries a lot at once - new brand, new business model, new technology03:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: according to http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images, you just put the URL. however, it says that they cannot be resized03:19
wolfspraulanybody who tells me "we have to ..." can just write something themselves, then it becomes obvious how hard it is03:19
wolfspraulthe Milkymist wikipedia page was an eye-opener for me, that was good03:20
wolfspraulI've heard some interesting stuff stuff morning along the lines of03:20
wolfspraulgenetics of audiovisual03:20
wolfspraulwith this machine of hell you are in the lowest level language of visual creation03:20
wolfspraullike manipulating DNA03:21
wpwrakhmm, "This page has been deleted". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Nanonote03:21
kristianpaultime ago03:22
wpwrakwolfspraul: (genetics of audiovisual) sounds a bit like the things you'd find at sharism.org :)03:23
wolfspraulin which way? you mean it sounds like 'sharism'?03:23
wolfspraulah, sharism.org - wait, checking...03:23
wolfspraulthere are just too many ways to go about m1, it's a problem03:24
wolfspraulor about milkymist for that matter03:24
wpwrak"it's like einstein's theory for peanut butter" :)03:24
wolfspraulARM competitor?03:24
wolfspraulGPL licensed whatever03:24
wolfspraulFOSS guys, come here03:24
wolfspraulvideo manipulation? for what purpose? personal/fun, professional/office, conference, vj, art?03:25
kristianpauli tought was hardware guys ;)03:25
wolfspraulcopyleft hardware?03:25
wpwrakwell, as someone who doesn't presently care about the vj side (although some hands-on experience may convince me that it's a nice gadget), i see mainly the aspect of making a compact fpga-based "pc".03:25
wolfspraulI don't believe in being able to suddenly have a strong rally of free software folks jumping into this project03:25
wolfspraulyes, the dreaded fpga computer03:26
wpwrakplus, it's the native habitat of llhdl, which i find a lot more interesting03:26
wolfspraullike I said, this is what sucks up my story telling capacity03:26
wolfspraulfor good or for bad03:26
wolfsprauland LGM is coming up in a few days...03:26
wolfspraulwe sold NanoNotes by talking about: a) 99 USD b) Linux c) copyleft hardware03:27
wolfspraulbut we definitely did not establish an exponentially growing anything, more like a static small community, with most members on an unsustainable path03:27
wolfspraulwhere's the breakout?03:28
wolfsprauland for m1, how to approach it now/03:28
wolfspraulcopyleft hw?03:28
wpwrakbreakout ?03:28
wolfspraulnah, I have doubts03:28
wolfspraulfpga computer?03:28
wolfspraulI talked to endless people about this, there is no fire/spark there03:28
kristianpaulabout fpga computer?03:28
wolfspraulthose kinds of reasonings are too dry, too academic03:29
wpwrakthe coolness of the fpga computer is not in the computer but in the fpga. the computer is just what enables you to make use of the fpga03:29
wolfspraulif Milkymist is marketed as a total fgpa-centric project, I'm sure it will fail03:29
wpwrakthe real use of the fpga would be for example that you can synthesize your own peripherals03:29
wolfspraulbut if we go the 'this will be asic soon' path, that's also not good for a whole variety of reasons03:30
wolfspraultough tough :-)03:30
kristianpaulnew way computing, compiling/sinthetising the computer03:30
wolfspraulyes sure, but whom are we realistically targeting?03:30
kristianpaultoo early03:30
wolfspraulfpga makers come out with subsidized devel boards to push their latest features03:30
wpwrakyes, fpga-only would be tough. also because most people don't need all that exotic multimedia stuff.03:31
wolfspraulsure there is zero continuity, and no products will ever emerge, but it sucks up 90% of attention for 'cool new fpga features'03:31
wolfsprauljust as they are meant to :-)03:31
wolfspraulwe have been largely unable to create a big excitement about free software folks, even kernel hackers, for anything below kernel03:32
wolfspraulso I highly doubt this angle works03:32
kristianpaulreconfigurable hardware video sinthesis box03:32
wolfspraulyes sure03:32
wolfspraulmake me interested03:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: because there's very little for them to do03:33
wolfspraulthat sounds like a professor titling one of his classes03:33
wolfspraulof course he knows that his students have to attend, because otherwise they don't get enough points to pass03:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: strategically, i see mm1 more as a proof of concept than as a real product. alas, that doesn't fit with the planned business model.03:34
wolfspraulmaybe I don't see the forest from all the trees...03:34
kristianpaul(angle) it will not work until we have better tools under kernel layer, like when llhdl gets mature..03:34
wolfsprauloh no, it's a great product03:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: i mean as a moneymaking product03:34
wolfspraulyou should see where it is now, and the little details we are polishing in terms of software, electrical stability, accessories, etc.03:34
wolfspraulit could sell in thousands and tens of thousands03:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: (k and tens of k) sounds as if you've already found your market ? :)03:35
wolfspraulthe quality of the product is my least concern03:35
wolfspraulI'm on the story-telling side now03:35
wpwraki'm not talking about quality. i mean in the sense of meeting a market demand03:36
wolfspraulgenetics of audiovisual03:36
wolfspraulproduct is satisfying, I think demand can be created03:37
wolfspraulwhat is the cheapest way to create demand?03:37
kristianpaulwho demand hardware freedom..03:37
wolfspraulyes, that's one angle03:37
wolfspraulbut I don't believe there is a strong demand there :-)03:37
wpwrakinstill fear in people that can only be extinguished by owning the product :)03:37
kristianpaulneither from eff..03:38
wolfspraulit's not needed either. my personal business idol here is mtk.03:38
wolfspraulnobody knows who they are, so what03:38
wolfspraulNokia tried super hard to ignore them, pressing their eyes together harder and harder over the years.03:38
wolfspraulmedia/press has totally missed it, probably because mtk gives a damn about a marketing/pr department03:38
wolfspraulthey focus on making money03:38
wolfspraulso the only place you see them is in the top silicon manufacturers charts03:39
wpwrakif you don't expect "fpga" and "freedom" to sell, don't advertize them, or advertize them only in the small pring03:39
wolfsprauland you see how many billions of USD they make03:39
wolfspraulif copyleft hardware functions, it will lead to superior products03:39
wpwraklike many companies don't advertize that their CE devices have linux inside03:39
wolfspraulthose products cannot be marketed as 'copyleft hardware' per se, they just happen to be03:39
kristianpaulbut mtk have lots of turnkey products, is hard to compare i think03:39
wolfspraulmy point is that the success of copyleft hardware does not necessarily depend on being the cool kid in town03:40
wolfspraulin my experience this 'cool kid in town' is all fabricated anyway03:40
wolfspraulit is not harder to be the cool kid in town that it is to make a ben-wpan board. it's just work.03:40
wolfspraulso back to m1, that's why I'm currently thinking about this 'genetics of audiovisual'03:41
wolfspraulI like it03:41
wolfspraultotally different angle03:41
rohwolfspraul: nice one.03:41
wpwrakyou can also vary the marketing message depending on audience. for a hypothetical "vj mag" you'd talk about cool effects, how it rubs this or that famous competitor in the dirt, and how rugged it is for hard stage use.03:41
wolfspraulalso 'lowest level language of visual creation'03:41
rohyou made 'ignore marketing, make good products' sound as complicated as if sean said it ;)03:41
kristianpaulhe, i liked that one03:41
wolfspraulit's a bit wordy, but 'language' covers the programmability of it03:41
wpwrakfor the hypothetical "fpga forum" you'd talk about the amazingly small number of LUTs and how openrisc, sparc, etc. suck03:42
wolfspraulroh: well it's not that easy. we have to sell, make money. this is hardware.03:42
wpwrakand so on03:42
wolfspraulgood product, good sales force, godo marketing - needs to come together03:42
rohwolfspraul: if the hw and sw is great it will.03:42
wolfspraulif you have a bad product, marketing is too expensive03:42
wolfspraulI don't believe in that. there is a lot of competition.03:42
wolfspraulit's a factor, x*z03:42
wolfspraulx = product quality03:42
wolfspraulz = strength of sales force, including marketing message, pr03:43
rohexactly. have you ever seen hilti or makita advertisement banners anywhere? they dont need to. if you worked with one, you want one. no need for advertisement03:43
wolfspraulif your z = 0, it doesn't matter how great your x is :-)03:43
wolfspraulyes true, of course. I'm not arguing against that.03:43
rohi think they give away calendars.. so make stickers.03:43
wolfspraulstill you have to reach someone. stories are competing.03:44
rohwolfspraul: sure. some salespitch needs to be. just stick to 'it does foo and it does it good' and let the rest be stuff 'just working'03:44
rohhonest sells again ;)03:44
wpwrak(lowest level language) isn't the effect programming language defined by some commercial product ?03:44
wolfspraulgood story is not necessarily about dishonesty03:44
wpwrakso you can't really claim originality there03:44
wolfspraullook at a movie, and movie marketing03:44
wolfspraulquite interesting03:44
rohmeh. daylight. need to go home and to bed03:44
wolfspraulnobody needs new movies, there are plenty of old ones, great ones, that you haven't seen yet03:45
wolfspraulbut the industry is all about creating demand for the new one, and they even invest 100, 200, even more millions of USD into it - very risky!03:45
wolfspraulthey certainly trust their marketing power :-)03:45
wolfspraulwpwrak: I haven't looked much at the language yet, you mean Milkymist Patches?03:46
wolfspraulSebastien always says it is mostly milkdrop compatible03:46
wpwraki assume that's what you refer to with 'lowest level language of visual creation', right ?03:46
wolfspraulthat's a bsd license software03:46
wpwrak(bsd) ah, nice03:47
wolfsprauland even if it were proprietary, programming languages are not covered by copyright, afaik03:47
wolfspraulyes but it's just the language similarity on m1, as a starting point03:47
wolfspraulI doubt there is 1 line of milkdrop code in m103:47
kristianpaulme too03:47
wolfspraulwpwrak: that's the beauty imo. the 'lowest level language for visual creation' leaves that a bit open03:48
wpwrakprogramming languages are tricky. e.g., they tried to keep eiffel restricted. the net effect was that it never caught on. poetic justice ;-)03:48
kristianpaulbut is compatible, but i wonder how many people really used/use or had heard of milkydrop...03:48
wolfspraulit can also include the Verilog that you can equally dive into programming-wise03:48
wolfspraulI don't think milkdrop compatibility is an important feature in m103:49
wpwrakalso wirth had this sort of ambitions with oberon, although i think it was more about keeping the language "pure". and see how this helped to spread it :)03:49
wolfspraulin fact if m1 grows, the language will divert from milkdrop, for sure03:49
wolfspraulin m1, milkdrop is just the starting point03:49
wolfspraulor was03:49
wpwrak(it's actually a lot better than modula-2 ... almost usable :)03:49
kristianpauli hope it was :)03:49
wolfspraulI think there are additions already today, and certainly more coming if the community grows.03:49
wpwrak(compatibility) dunno. if you google for the milkdrop language, you find some activity03:51
kristianpaulthats good03:51
wolfspraulit's probably safe to say that m1 is a fork then03:52
kristianpauli wonder if lekernel already wrote then about mm1..03:52
wolfspraulI don't think sebastien cares that much about 100% milkdrop compatibility03:52
wolfspraulit's just a starting point03:52
wpwrak("language" leaving some ambiguity) yeah, i was afraid you'd aim for that :) but you still need a story why it makes sense. or be really really good at making one up on the fly if the press asks you what it means.03:52
wolfspraulmaybe I need to play more with my m1 first03:53
wpwrakwhat was the synthesizer name again, "interactive video synthesizer" ?03:53
wolfspraulI was planning to show it to a friend of mine who used to manage rock bands. he organized lots of concerts. maybe there is some spark in that conversation :-)03:54
wolfsprauljust video synthesizer03:54
wolfspraulkristianpaul: would you read an article that is headlined 'genetics of audiovisual'?03:54
wpwrak(show it to a musician) yeah, he'd also be able to associate with things/concepts you don't even know03:55
wolfspraulyes! exactly03:55
wolfspraulgood story is good story, I have deep respect for that and the power can be big.03:55
wolfspraulpower of good story needs to come together with power of good tech03:55
wolfsprauleven if roh thinks that's a complicated way to say nothing :-)03:55
wolfspraulI'm not worried about the tech in m103:56
wolfspraulalmost there, almost ready for the technically unsuspecting end user. and we will finish the remaining 10% for sure.03:56
wpwrak(genetics of audiovisual) .... waiting for kristianpaul's comment before i send mine ....03:56
wpwrakthe tech is making sure it can do what it's expected to do and keeps on doing that for a useful amount of time. i wouldn't be overly worried there either. well, the power supply situation is unfortunate. that's a weakness we already know. but i don't think it will be a major issue in a run as small as rc3.03:59
wpwraki wonder what "synthesizer" means to the average musician nowadays. e.g., would that include manipulation of live samples ? programmability ? or would they use a different term to describe such a device ?04:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: let's see about power supply, I always remain optimistic. It will be as good as rc2 or better. What's bad about that?04:03
wolfspraulI thought it's an interesting idea to translate the fpga thing as genetics, or DNA.04:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: it's a bit too easy to fry the whole device, that's bad about it :)04:04
wolfspraulit's a translation, of course.04:04
wolfspraulnot sure. if you plug in the power supply we ship with each unit, all is fine.04:04
wpwrakyes, big IF :)04:04
wolfspraulwell I agree with you, but let's just see whether we can do better on rc3 or not04:05
wpwrakit has a nice inviting barrel connector, doesn't it ? :)04:05
wolfspraulthe jury is still out04:05
wolfspraulin the big picture this is also just a small detail04:05
wolfspraulI'm on the story side now04:05
wpwrakalright, story ... so .. to address the vj community, you need to speak their language04:06
wpwraki assume lekernel does, so that's already a good start04:06
wolfspraulwhich magazine is this? which journalist?04:07
wolfsprauluntil I see a journalist that tells me "yes this is great, I will cover this extensively in our magazine" I remain cautious04:08
wolfspraulI've found de-bug.de and xlr8r.com04:09
wolfspraulat de-bug.de I have a good intro (a journalist I know worked there years ago and still knows everybody)04:09
wpwrakthe 'genetics of audiovisual' just sound confused to me. genetics link closely with evolution. where's the specifically evolutionary element in what mm1 does ? e.g., does it auto-adapt to its environment ? does it procreate ? does it mutate ?04:09
wolfspraulof course I will try to see what they say04:09
wolfspraulwell yes, it does most of these things, no?04:10
wpwrak(journalist) there, i have no idea, sorry :)04:10
wolfspraulhow about the scene we know best? how to present it to free software people? hardware hackers? open hardware hackers?04:11
wpwrak(does most of these things) well, in a sufficiently vague sense, it does everything ;-)04:11
wpwrakyou could probably also call it "dadaism of audiovisual", in a vague enough sense ;-)04:12
wpwrakto hw hackers, i'd sell the compact core04:12
wpwrakit's a fully-featured pc built around an fpga. has lots of interfaces, a good cpu, etc. so if you want to add stuff, you don't have to start from zero.04:13
wpwrakof course, the mm1 hardware isn't ideal for this market04:13
wolfsprauldevel boards pushed out for marketing reasons will take out all oxygen from that room04:13
wpwraka bit too much emphasis on multimedia, probably a bit too little on customer extensions04:14
wpwrakyes, they're a very strong competitor04:14
wpwrakabout the only argument against them would be that they're not the reference platform this was developed on. but then, if the strength is flexibility, this argument vanishes quickly.04:15
wolfspraulopencores found 247 people donating money to their 'open asic project' after the coverage on slashdot04:16
wpwrakso it would still be attractive for those who see themselves as pioneers. who don't want to wait half a year until someone ports it to ref board XYZ.04:16
wolfspraulfor a total of about 8000 USD (orsoc started with 3000)04:16
wpwrakor you could sell it as a long-term stable platform. but that's also tricky. probably not worth the trouble trying.04:17
wolfspraulthat only works if the real pull is the software you are stabilizing on it04:17
wolfspraulMilkymist SoC04:17
wolfspraulwhich I believe is the correct path04:17
wolfspraulI think I want to stay away from competing with devel boards, as far as I can :-)04:17
wpwrak(pull) also if you just want to explore. get the platform, play with the vague ideas you have, see if something sticks.04:18
wolfspraulI have doubts about the size of a copyleft hw pull, or the amount of free software or kernel hackers that can become deeply interesting in electronic circuits, IC design, etc.04:18
wpwrakbut as i said, it's not a lot of people who work like this04:18
wolfspraulyes those angles exist, and we should continue to be very open to them, but I don't believe there can be a real big uptake there, big growth04:19
wolfspraulyes, but play with what ideas?04:19
wolfspraulplay with Verilog?04:19
wolfspraulplay with Milkymist SoC?04:19
wolfspraulSebastien is ironically doing a lot of support for people who ask him how they can get this or that part of Milkymist to work on other fpga devel boards04:19
wolfspraulI think i've seen it all now, Xilinx, Altera, Lattice, etc. etc.04:19
wolfspraulbut nothing comes back, ever04:20
wpwrakpeople may get an mm1 if they expect to work on the core itself, if the mm1 is clearly positioned as the reference platform04:21
wolfspraulso I think the story of Milkymist One is a story about visual effects - we have to risk to go only for what an end user can do with it04:21
wolfspraulmaybe they will do a bit of Patches programming, maybe not04:21
wolfspraulmaybe they will explore integration of DMX lighting systems04:22
wpwrakdepends a bit on their background. if they work in a reasonably well-financed project, an mm1 is quite affordable if they think it helps them04:22
wolfspraulthen we need a separate effort to get _code contributions_ into the project, whether that's for real-time video streaming, integrating still pictures into the performance, and a myriad of other features04:22
wolfspraulwpwrak: I haven't seen that at all yet04:22
wpwrak(only end user) yes, that seems to be the most promising direction04:22
wolfspraulin fact it's quite the opposite04:22
wolfspraulmost of these people work on super small educational budgets04:23
wolfspraulthey buy a subsidized fpga devel board for 19 USD (exaggerating)04:23
wpwrak(small edu budget) ah, that's bad04:23
wolfspraulthey have infinite time to fiddle around with their board, in fact that's the point!04:23
wolfspraulthey will end the project in an unusable chaotic messy state, which is also OK since all those realizations were the point of their work04:23
wolfspraulnot 1 line of code, not 1 snippet of wisdom, experience, feedback, will come back to Sebastien04:24
wpwrakhmm, not sure. some of the discussions in #milkymist sound as if something was coming back04:24
wpwrakbe it code, ideas, experience, etc.04:25
wpwrakanyway, so you don't focus marketing initially on the free or hw scene. fine.04:26
wpwraknow, the end users. what do you give them ? a bag of cool effects to use for their next few gigs ? a lab to develop their own stuff ? a long-term multi-purpose platform ?04:27
wolfspraulvery little. yes there are 2-3 guys, they have been there forever.04:27
wolfspraulmy observation is more looking at it for 6+ months04:27
wpwrak(things coming back) 2-3 guys isn't too bad. the ben is doing hardly better these days, if not worse04:29
wpwrakand compare the installed base. it's enormous in comparison :)04:29
wolfspraulwell one by one. first I'm thinking about the m1 launch now.04:30
wolfspraulI don't expect the contributor situation on m1 to improve fast.04:30
wolfspraulso maybe the only approach we should focus on is to make money for the few core contributors we have now, primarily Sebastien, and then let him hack away in happiness :-)04:30
wolfsprauland then maybe over time we can extend the model to more people04:31
wpwrakit'll get worse in the sense that development resources will get diverted into what is basically user support04:31
wolfspraulso I'm mostly thinking how to sell to people who buy m1 for the visual aspect04:32
wolfspraulnot for the freedom or programming aspect, primarily04:32
wolfspraulthat's a nice extra for those who care04:32
wpwrakyes, so  what do you give the visual customers ? a bag of cool effects to use for their next few gigs ? a lab to develop their own stuff ? a long-term multi-purpose platform ?04:33
wolfspraulit's simpler than that04:33
wolfspraulfirst the software will boot into rendering mode right away04:33
wpwraka sense of being ahead of the pack ? a sense of relief to have avoided falling behing ?04:33
wolfspraulthen we focus on two features, the simplicity is so striking that even you will be blown away :-)04:34
wpwrakblack and blue screen ? :)04:34
wolfspraulfirst feature is NEXT PATCH (next visual effect)04:34
wolfspraulsecond feature is 'download new free patches from Internet'04:34
wolfspraulthat's it04:34
wolfspraulthen market that well04:35
wolfspraulthere's a whole world to discover underneath for those who want to, all the way into the IC design :-)04:35
wpwrakokay. will someone ask where those "new free patches" come from ? if you think the question will be asked, what do you answer ?04:35
wpwrake.g., does sebastien plan to spend the rest of the year writing new patches ? :)04:36
wolfspraulI'm sure we can organize that, the creation of new ones04:37
wolfspraulthey are download from a url04:37
wpwrakjust to check, so you made your cross at the "a bag of cool effects to use for their next few gigs" option, correct ?04:37
wolfspraulI'm just describing the marketing approach now04:37
wpwrakit's no multiple choice. no small crosses at all the other options as well :)04:38
wolfspraulnot just gigs, for anybody who wants to dabble in this kind of visual effects/works04:38
wolfspraulsee the box like a VGA signal generator04:38
wolfspraulon the box we have space to talk about 3 features, normally04:38
wpwrakfind. who does ? so you see a big non-vj market for shrink-wrapped effects ?04:38
wolfspraulhopefully the TwitterWall can fit too :-)04:38
wpwrakerr, for a box that plays shrink-wrapped effects04:38
wolfspraul1) click through xx included effects04:38
wolfspraul2) download new free effects from milkymist.org04:39
wolfspraul3) connect to any twitter hash tag04:39
wpwrakimplementation details :)04:39
wpwraklet's talk about the usage scenario04:39
wolfspraulunder-utilized projector around?04:39
wolfspraulmaybe we should talk to projector companies?04:40
wolfspraulactually a good idea!04:40
wolfspraula company that sells professional projectors may also be interested in m104:40
wpwrakwhat would be the mix professional vj, not-quite-professional vj, hobbyist, others ? 100:10:1:0.02 ? 1:1:1:1 ? ... ?04:40
wpwrak(projectors) heh, who knows. can't hurt :) maybe they'll just want to integrate it, to have a less boring "standby" display :)04:41
wolfspraulwhich would be fine by me04:42
wpwraksounds like a compfty niche, yes :)04:42
wolfspraulthey are integrating lots of things nowadays, so you can plug in your usb stick, play videos, slide show from pictures, display microsoft office files, etc.04:42
wpwraklike elphel and google. not a marriage for life, but good while it lasts.04:43
wolfspraulI'm also thinking about smaller companies that are more like 'systems integrators' for projectors.04:43
wpwrakhmm, that sounds like office/home projectors04:43
wpwrakthe one in clubs may be a different caliber04:43
wpwrakbut an effect generator could still be interesting for them. why not.04:44
wpwrakmight be that they'd some major customizations, though04:44
wpwraks/they'd/they/d want/04:44
wolfspraulI would think there is at least 1 layer of companies between an Acer, Sony, etc. and say a hotel anywhere in the world that needs to equip a few conference rooms04:45
wolfspraulno way that hotel (or hotel chain) will just order the stuff from amazon, or directly from Acer/Sony/etc. sales04:45
wolfspraulthere must be more companies in between, and they could be interested in m1, to sell to their customers04:45
wpwrakthat's always a bit of a problem. company X comes and says they'd buy 10 k units if you'd just make this and this and this change. now, do you do it or not ? pro: the promise of big money. contra: they may drop out of the deal. and even if the deal gets through, it may send you doing stuff that doesn't bring you forward on your real objectives.04:46
wolfspraulyes but that's a normal request04:47
wolfspraulif it comes from a serious business, it's quickly responded to with an NRE, payment terms, etc.04:47
wolfspraulthen they can take it or not, done04:47
wpwrakcould be small local companies. they buy from resellers, then take care of installation/integration.04:47
wolfspraulthey cannot know how hard such customizations are, so the request just needs to be quickly and professionally answered04:47
wpwrakokay, you're ready for that. good :)04:48
wolfspraulah this is totally normal04:48
wpwrak"normal" doens't necessarily imply "ready" ;-)04:48
wolfspraulIn my former life in the professional (ahem, proprietary) industry, we've dealt with such requests from LG, Kodak, Canon, and many others.04:49
wolfspraulmost of such requests lead nowhere, btw04:49
wpwrakas in "it's normal for japan to get earthquakes and tsunamis every now and then" ;-)04:49
wpwrak(nowhere) i suspected as much ...04:49
wolfspraulbut these big companies have many managers that are exploring many ideas04:49
wolfspraulso they need numbers, then they run the numbers, and they find out it's too expensive/too risky/not enough profit potential04:50
wolfspraulso the small company protects itself against that with the NRE04:50
wpwrakso is is even worth trying to compose a real response, with numbers and such ?04:50
wolfsprauland all is fine :-)04:50
wolfspraulgood question, I don't know04:51
wolfspraulI've only seen to take this serious, yes. they are potential customers.04:51
wpwrak(real response) i.e., a quote. you probably can't charge for that.04:51
wolfspraulwhich business can turn down potential customers? maybe it should close right away.04:51
wolfspraulqualifying customers is hard04:51
wolfspraulno you cannot charge for that04:52
wpwrakokay, so you'll ping projector companies. do you know which ones make the big projectors for events ?04:53
wpwrak(or maybe also video walls or such)04:53
wpwrakand what was the expected customer mix again, pro vj/amateur vj/video enthusiast/other ?04:55
wpwrakmaybe we can make this easier - can pro vj and amateur vj be combined ? or are their needs too different ?04:56
wpwrakalso, if there's a group you feel confident just assuming to be zero, that helps with simplifying. e.g., "other" might be a candidate.04:57
wpwrak(different needs) i guess that should be that needs/channels.04:58
wpwrakof course, another strategy could be to focus on a known-to-be-too-small target market, just to get the thing rolling, and hope other opportunities pop up. such as those projector companies.05:01
wpwrakor maybe that could be called a non-strategy ;-)05:02
wolfspraulprofessional projectors are made by Epson, Panasonic, Sanyo, Samsung, Acer, BenQ, Sony05:03
wolfspraulvideo enthousiast sounds like someone who enjoys watching movies, but we need people who like to create stuff, play with visual effects, real-time video, maybe video hacking if that exists05:05
wolfspraulthey could have fun with m105:05
wpwrakokay, so it's not just the people who want just playback but also creators you want to reach with your marketing message ?05:07
wpwrak(video enthusiast) yeah, needs a better name05:08
wpwrakhmm, what's exactly the wiki dialect qi-hw speaks ? i tried to embed an image in the mediawiki style (no markup, just the url) but it doesn't take it05:15
wolfspraulwhich url?05:18
wolfspraulit's a standard mediawiki05:18
wolfspraulno dialect :-)05:18
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/ubb-vga-pub-1024-511x383.jpg and http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/ubb-vga-pub-v2-377x383.jpg05:18
wolfspraulm1 is not about playback, it's about realtime manipulation of a video _signal_05:18
wpwrak(mm1) yeah .. effect playback :)05:19
wolfspraulfeatures like twitter feed are new, or maybe the embedding and manipulation of still images05:19
wolfspraulor the streaming of the generated output05:19
wolfspraulbut that's a lot of work and should not be part of the message today05:19
wolfsprauland not needed imo05:19
wolfspraulwhat we have is good and flexible enough05:19
wpwrakalso, the manipulation aspect is still a bit downplayed, compared to the pure synthesis aspect05:19
wolfspraulMilkymist as a standby signal for a projector05:28
wolfspraulI like it05:28
wolfspraulthose somewhat respectless ideas may surprise... :-)05:29
wpwrakif they can put nearly the equivalent of a ben into a glossy magazine, ... ;-)05:29
wolfspraulI just like the idea of emailing those corps saying "I want to sell a new standby signal for your projectors to you"05:33
wolfspraulat least someone will laugh and look at that :-)05:33
wpwrakshould also be good for the press :)05:34
wpwrakhow many presentable patches are there at the moment ? enough to mention their number in the initial marketing message ?05:42
wolfspraulnot sure, I need to pay more attention to the patches05:45
wolfspraulyes, there are a lot and they are nice05:45
wolfspraulalong the lines of the standby signal, one could also say m1 is a nice way to fill time between talks, at a conference05:46
wolfspraulso instead of making m1 the central thing, sell it as a way to fill time 'in between'05:46
wolfspraulwhy not. if it sells...05:46
wolfsprauland there is indeed _a lot_ of time between talks, at every event05:46
wpwraki just though that it could also nicely replace a lot of boring presentations at company meetings. dilbert may like it :)05:47
wolfspraulwith video-in patches the audience could be engaged, with a hash tag they could display things etc.05:47
wolfspraulmaybe not even start the next talk because it's too much fun :-)05:47
wolfspraulwhen the next guy wants to start, he's booed off stage. we should make a promotional clip along those lines...05:47
wolfspraulwho hasn't been at a boring talk???05:47
wpwrakthis could go so wrong. imagine response to audio input. before you know, you'll turn a reasonably quiet if bored audience into a roaring mob ;-))05:48
wpwraknow we have something for rejon to set up. place camera. upload to youtube :)05:49
wpwrakhmm. how many simultaneous audio inputs does it have ?05:52
wolfspraulthere is line-in, plus microphone05:59
wolfspraulthe rest would have to come over Ethernet (not implemented now), or USB (even more effort), or hardware hacks I guess05:59
wolfspraulso two right now, line-in + mic06:00
wpwrakmic is the built-in one ?06:00
wpwrakline-in is two channels, left and right ?06:01
wolfspraulgood question, yes I think it's stereo06:01
wolfspraulmic is built-in, yes06:01
wolfspraulline-in is typically connected to a music player06:02
wpwrakokay, with stereo you could do this: place one external microphone to left, one to the right. place the camera in the middle, looking at the audience, ideally from above but not too high. analyze the audio signal for peaks and determine the difference in arrival time between left and right06:03
wolfsprauland then?06:04
wolfspraulsounds like a fun start06:04
wpwrakwhen you get a peak, digital-zoom in at the origin of the peak. run some wacky effect on it for a few seconds. then zoom out again.06:04
wolfspraulok that kind of programmable camera interaction would be new though06:05
wolfspraulneeds a motor controlled camera, zoom, etc.06:05
wolfspraulbut of course, it all exists06:05
wpwrakno no .. all static06:05
wpwraktake an image of the room and digitally zoom06:05
wpwrakonly the pixels move, not the equipment06:06
wpwrakwell, until things get seriously out of control ;-)06:06
wpwrakhmm, we may just have invented the successor of karaoke. needs even less skills ;-))06:07
wpwrakonly drawback is that this would already block all the audio inputs. well, you could have an external switch/mixer06:10
wpwrakwhat's the maximum video in resolution ? vga ?06:11
wolfspraulanother good question, don't know06:11
wolfspraulabout zooming in automatically to 'moving' parts, that sounds like a serious undertaking as well06:12
wolfspraulof course this is doable, but remember we have more or less one full-power engineer working on the whole stack right now06:12
wolfspraulthe video signal is pal or ntsc, doesn't that answer the resolution question?06:14
wpwrakyou basically need two components: one that analyzes the audio and returns a peak yes/no and peak position indication in real time, plus the zoom.06:14
wpwrak(one engineer) yeah, that's a bit limiting ...06:14
wpwrakhmm, sounds vga-ish or worse then06:15
wolfsprauland it's not clear yet whether we can support 3 different video signals or not (with multiplexing)06:15
wolfspraulso for now let's assume only one06:15
wpwrakone video would be sufficient06:15
wpwrakit's just the crowdcam. the rest is generated inside06:15
wpwrakwell, you could also have multiple cameras if you want to get fancy06:16
wpwrakimpressive .. imagemagick can convert xcf files, too07:14
lekernelwolfspraul: http://forums.winamp.com/forumdisplay.php?f=84 except that we suck at doing the same07:33
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga/web/: generate a Web page describing UBB-VGA (im progress) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/64e74ab07:52
wpwrakand the result looks like this: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/web/07:52
wpwrakwith (almost completely) automatic image generation from the schematics, and so on. feel the power of my Makefile, mediaweenie ! ;-)07:55
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga/web/index.html: some changes in wording and text structure http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/3f054e108:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga/web/index.html: minor wording improvement; give images more space http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/0937c4a08:23
wolfspraullekernel: don't understand we suck at what?09:08
wolfspraulrunning a forum? running those particular patches on m1?09:08
dvdkjust submitted a slashdot story about the UBB-VGA hack.09:58
dvdknot sure whether it gets posted, but for those who have an account, you might be able to up-vote it09:58
dvdk"Micro-SD Card Slot Abused as VGA-Port"09:58
dvdk(just an experiment, first article i ever submitted)10:00
lekernelwolfspraul: making the project popular and having people submit patches10:03
lekerneldvdk: cool10:04
dvdkguess the slashdot moderator's are still sleeping, maybe shouldn't have submitted that early "in the morning" :)10:06
wpwrakoh shit. now i need to fix my image links **quickly** :)12:43
wpwrakdvdk: very nice article, by the way. concise yet says everything that needs saying.12:45
dvdkwpwrak: thx12:46
dvdkbtw got a mail from the slashdot system some 30m ago saying it was posted.  but as it hasn't shown up yet, so either "posted" isn't what i think it means, or there's some delay built in12:47
Action: dvdk keeps hitting reload :)12:49
wpwrak"not so fast" said the girl to the sailor ...12:51
dvdkah, ok, it looks like it's really coming.  http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/11/05/07/1215246/Micro-SD-Card-Slot-Abused-As-VGA-Port12:52
dvdktagged as 'hardhack' :)12:52
dvdkstill not linked from the front-page but they have some delay in there so that paying subscribers get stories earlier.12:53
kristianpaulwolfspraul: (genetics) i personally dont read articles with such us tittle12:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga/web/: link to medium-size images, not full size; some rewording http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/91bc5ea12:56
kristianpaulsorry wpwrak i got asleep yday :/12:56
wpwrakphew. now they can come12:56
wpwrakkristianpaul: (genetics) that's exactly what i though about it too ! :)12:57
dvdkwpwrak: wrt your last commit: trying to brace for the slashdot effect?12:57
kristianpauli dont get the sense/context of the genetics word in that title12:57
wpwrakdvdk: naw, saving them from a nasty 2.5 MB surprise when they click on an image ;-)12:58
kristianpauls/m1 is a nice way to fill time between talks/m1 is a nice way to fill walls13:01
kristianpaulpeople just dont know what they can do, you need tell it how, in a short video or something13:03
kristianpauleven me,, i discove trought xiangfu that _awesome_ patches to keyboard feature13:03
kristianpaulso a video about how to do that is not bad13:03
wpwrakdvdk: hmm, there should also be some link for further communication. well, let's see if people can figure it out on their own.13:04
kristianpaulmy point is an article is not enought, i will head more to whatever writing poiting a demostration of the current milkymist features13:05
kristianpaulwich btw i dont get yet how the patch editor can be really usefull if you dont have a window to edit it separatelly, recompile and get fun with it13:06
wpwrakkristianpaul: the number of articles you can get out this way is limited. so you need a second level with more information, and connect it to these articles.13:07
kristianpauloh sure, but thats when things get hard ;)13:07
kristianpaulbtw about mic, will be nice to know wich patches reacts with the mic-in i have the "feeling" some do and others dont, but you get catught when it works, if youy we're making a sound and watching the wall with the milkydrop effect13:08
wpwrakkristianpaul: put a LED next to each input and turn on the LEDs if the input is being used ?13:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: nice13:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: video, mic, line in, ...13:10
wolfsprauldvdk: I don't think every post, even if accepted in a category, makes it to the homepage13:14
qwebirc35300kewl. works.13:18
wpwrakshall i just link from the bottom of the web page to the qi-hw list and this channel ?13:19
dvdkwpwrak: yes i think the qi-hw list is pretty important.  was not so easy for me to find, when i "accidentally" bought my nanonote.13:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga/web/index.html: added links to #qi-hardware and the mailing list http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/f1efa9e13:22
wolfspraulif it does get onto the homepage, I would expect about 8000 visitors on the first day, then maybe 5000 on the second day, then drop a lot13:28
wolfspraulat least those were roughly the numbers last time the NanoNote was on slashdot13:28
wolfspraulback then that converted into about 100 NanoNote sales in the US and Canada alone13:28
wpwrakseems that we made the front page. brace for impact :-)13:29
wolfspraulunfortunately the server couldn't really hold up well, maybe visitors (and sales) would have been a bit higher with a more scalable system13:29
wpwraklet's hope the all-static content on downloads holds up better ;-)13:29
lekernelslashdot is just moderated now? they don't have their voting system anymore?13:30
wolfspraulstill voting I think, though I wouldn't hold my breadth for the democracy aspect there13:30
wolfspraulChinese democracy? :-)13:30
wolfspraulah hold on, that will be called 'democracy with Chinese characteristics' when they implement it13:30
kodeinI see the nanonote is on the /. frontpage13:32
Action: wpwrak feels a little silly for having reused rejon's introduction line that put my name before anything else13:33
lekernelkodein: great13:34
lekernelnow this should happen once a month or so :)13:35
wolfspraulman I'm too slow13:35
wolfspraulI will put an infobox right on the top talking about Milkymist too :-) (on the wiki page it links to)13:35
wpwraklekernel: we have wpan, which should be rolling off the factory belt any moment now. if they haven't already. (i hope not ... for i don't think anyone is prepared to actually test the critters)13:36
kristianpaulhe nice13:37
kristianpauloh, hace a hardhack tag..13:37
kristianpaulah hard is for hardware..13:40
lekernelwpwrak: good13:40
lekernelso, for next month we already have one story in the pipeline13:40
kristianpaulwe need a slashdot article for milkymist :-)13:40
lekernelsure, we are working on some press releases in parallel13:41
lekernelI can't access slashdot.org ... works for you?13:41
wolfspraulslashdot articles for milkymist are easy (ok, and not easy). Easy in the sense that there are at least 10 different slashdot stories in it.13:41
wolfsprauland not easy in the sense that they need a gifted writer, and the right idea/headline, to make a good post for slashdot13:42
wolfspraulit needs to be digested slowly, so we actually need a series of milkymist stories :-)13:42
kristianpaulwell the lua/dmx hack the other dat may applied?..13:42
kristianpaulor what should be postend on /.13:42
kristianpaulstories, i see13:43
wolfspraulwell yes, but it needs to be put in context13:43
wolfspraulit needs a good headline13:43
wolfspraulit needs the right timing, i.e. it has to be done multiple times over time, and so on13:43
wolfspraulDavid did great, he just did it :-)13:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: /. may not be such a bad place for spreading the word about MM1. there, you can probably squeeze in multiple articles about different angles of the same product more easily than at traditional places.13:43
wolfspraulit's just one form away - same is true for pretty much every other online publication btw13:43
wolfspraul'tip us'13:44
wolfspraulthey want others to write the good texts13:44
wolfspraulok I posted a bit desperate sounding banner on the top of the page13:44
wolfspraulfeel free to edit if you think it's too tasteless :-)13:44
wolfspraulI don't expect a storm of viewers anyway, the headline we have on slashdot is a bit scary...13:45
kristianpaulhe. qi-hardware is taking a bit to load..13:45
wpwrakhere too13:45
wpwrak"Connection to Server Refused"13:45
wolfspraulyeah well13:45
kristianpaulit loaded, but no pics..13:45
wolfspraulgood thing I just got the banner uploaded13:45
kristianpaulslahdot effect !13:45
kristianpaulwow how desesperate was that  ;)13:46
wolfspraulhe :-)13:46
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/web/ still loads. all hail static content ! ;-)13:46
wolfsprauleditable by anyone. I just did a quick hack, with a smile hopefully people get that...13:46
dvdkcool, yes, we made it.13:46
kristianpauldvdk: :-)13:46
kristianpaulstill, slow load..13:47
dvdkmaybe it'd be a good idea if some of us helped clear up misconsceptions coming up in the comments13:47
wpwrakdvdk: congratulations ! and thanks !!13:47
kristianpaulbut yes surelly better than a wiki13:47
kristianpaul"La conexión tardó demasiado tiempo"13:47
kristianpaulnice !13:47
dvdkwpwrapk: nothing to thank for, it's still all your hard work13:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: argh. sound a bit too desperate indeed.13:47
wolfsprauledit it13:47
wolfspraulor give me a better text13:47
wolfspraulI change urgently to 'maybe' :-)13:48
kristianpaul"hey check out last coming product"13:48
wolfspraulfirst step to friendliness...13:48
wpwrakmuch better :)13:48
wpwrakreplace "buy" wth "yoy can get" ?13:48
wpwrak(good if you do the editing. here it's too glacially slow :)13:49
wolfspraulfirst the server has to let me through13:49
kristianpaulwolfspraul: is fast !!13:49
kristianpaulbanner is gone..13:49
wolfspraulreally? maybe someone didn't like it? :-)13:49
wolfspraulactually I hope there are no spam attacks just now, that would be kind of mean13:50
kristianpaulhum, that probably to be expected13:50
wolfspraulspammers should watch high-traffic blogs and magazines, and then attack the urls of sites that are just appearing on those sites13:50
wolfspraulwpwrak: I changed to friendlier wording.13:51
kristianpauljust dont put slahdot on the header13:51
kristianpauli think13:51
wolfsprauloh maybe someone thinks this is spam actually :-)13:51
wolfspraulI'm trying to see the page history, will know in a sec13:52
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think you need a prioritized vpn ;-)13:52
wolfspraulworst case I turn the admin flag on for the page13:52
wpwrakbetter just do that :)13:52
kristianpauli foudn this checking my rss/history for qi-hw http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File%3AProduction_PCB_atusb06.jpg13:53
wolfspraulno there was no edit. kristianpaul can you reload?13:53
wolfspraulthe new banner should be there13:53
kristianpaulis not loading here..13:53
wolfspraulshould I set the admin flag on?13:53
wolfspraulmaybe I just do it for peace of mind13:53
Action: kristianpaul still loading..13:57
kristianpaulmay be is just me and been far away from germany ;)13:57
dvdki guess the cgi based wiki is currently hitting its limits13:58
kristianpaulyeah, now i see why people at wikimedia uses proxies :-)13:59
kristianpaulfunny it finally loaded and no banner13:59
wolfspraulyou cannot compare the typical mediawiki install with the custom setup used by wikipedia.org etc14:00
kristianpaulsure :)14:00
dvdkkristianpaul: what do you mean with 'no banner'?14:00
wolfspraulin fact they are doing a big service to the world by keeping the same software used on that site, and still make it easily installable and usable by everybody else14:00
wolfspraulit's a lot of extra work14:00
kristianpauldvdk: wolfspraul put a banner/announcement in a red like box in the top qi-hw14:00
wolfspraulthe bottlenecks on a typical machine like the one that hosts qi-hardware.com starts with memory (the way Apache is setup), and then probably already CPU14:01
kristianpaulor may be is gone now already..14:01
dvdkkristianpaul: if that's "the banner" than i can see it when loaded from here (germany)14:01
wolfsprauldvdk: yeah I am shamelessly trying to steal some peoples attention and tell them about Milkymist14:01
wolfspraulhope you don't mind...14:01
dvdkkristianpaul: "Welcome Slashdot readers -..."14:01
dvdkwolfspraul: it's all your problem now :)14:01
kristianpauldvdk: not here14:01
dvdkkristianpaul: then your browser/proxy might do some caching.14:02
dvdkwolfspraul: yes it reads a little desperate14:02
wolfspraulthat's already after wpwrak toned it down14:02
wolfsprauldvdk: can you suggest a more noble wording?14:03
kristianpaulas i said dont use the word Slashdot on it14:04
kristianpauland surelly will sound less desesperate ;)14:04
wolfspraulok. that page is super chaotic anyway. so a bit more chaos at the top in a banner won't hurt, indeed.14:05
wolfspraulI remove that welcome thing14:05
dvdkwolfspraul: "we have been slashdotted.  to keep you from further stressing this wiki, let us just point you to the Milkymist (our next-gen project) and Tuxbrain+Sharism (our distributors for EU resp. the rest of the world)14:05
wpwrakdvdk: nice !14:06
dvdkjust an idea.  have to go now.  as i said, it's your problem now :)14:06
wolfspraulhe he14:06
wolfspraulyes, very good text14:06
wolfspraulwill do14:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: (chaotic) don't you say ! ;-) i think that wiki needs three things: a) a more hacker-friendly foundation, e.g., git-based (i've been whining about this for a long time, i know :) b) better performance. not sure where the specific bottleneck is, though. c) serious cleanup. some pages are hopelessly overloaded while others don't quite show enough and/or are dead ends. i think a) could also help to better control those dead en14:09
wpwrakwolfspraul: for better consistency, we'd need to find (a) wiki editor(s). not sure if anyone is volunteering. there are people who love to do this kind of work, but i'm not sure if many of those are hanging out around here.14:10
wolfspraulcan't edit anymore, oh well14:14
wpwrakkeep on trying :)14:15
wpwrakdid you set the admin flag ?14:15
wolfspraulyes, already done earlier14:17
kristianpaulsd... sd...14:17
wpwrakkristianpaul: ?14:18
kristianpaulwpwrak: remenbering the SD-like branding14:18
kristianpaulmicroSD ans such14:19
wpwrakah yes. i carefully avoided that one ;-)14:19
wpwrakused MMC a few times, though, but i hope that's reasonably safe14:20
steve|mwow, you're on slashdot :D14:30
kristianpaul17:00  17:3014:32
kristianpaulFabricating a Libre Graphics Future14:32
kristianpaulJon Phillips14:32
kristianpaulDay 4  Friday May 1314:32
kristianpaulI hope thats mm1 related talk..14:32
kristianpaulwow just before closing talk14:32
wolfspraulno there is no mm1 talk14:35
wolfspraulJon was planning to use the m1 in breaks and such14:35
wolfspraulwell, if it really happens14:35
wolfspraulthat's the problem with the press release. if I am not sure what is really happening there, I will not push out any press release.14:35
kristianpaulhe, thats always a problem if you dont carry with you right equipoment like projector...14:36
wolfspraulso I will write a draft, and then hopefully we get a few more facts to fill in14:36
wolfspraulif it's credible, push it out to go through the motions14:36
wolfspraulif not, then we rather wait until we have some real news, not just make up a fake story that didn't even happen in reality. That would be quite embarassing :-)14:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: well, if rejon assures you that he'll do something specific (whatever it is he plans to end up doing), you can probably announce it at face value. then maybe make a nice after the event report once it has occurred.14:44
wpwrakcomments on /. are good so far. some who don't get it, others who explain them, one troll, ... good catch so far :)14:46
kristianpaulhttp://xkcd.com/409/ :p15:09
wpwrakthe "to keep you from further stressing this wiki" also has a bit of an odd ring to it. for the next wave, maybe we should have something along the lines of "exploring this site may be slow for a while. you may find these interesting:"15:16
wpwrakor similar. still doesn't sound too great.15:16
lekernelI still can't access slashdot15:23
lekernelqi hardware server stats:  11:27:20 up 100 days, 14:53,  3 users,  load average: 50.83, 46.43, 41.8915:27
Cisieni've never seen a load avg that high15:28
kristianpaulwait no, you'll wake up roh !!15:29
lekernelit's all over twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/search/nanonote15:55
lekernelok good, we need more of this stuff15:56
rjeffrieswolfsprau1l "genetics of audiovisual" is a meaningless phrase.16:16
dvdkanybody else noticed, that the irc-log hasn't been updated during the last few hours?16:17
kristianpaulqi-bot: alive??16:25
kyakdvdk: seems that all is fine.. Note the the log is int UTC16:25
kristianpaulqi-bot: ping16:25
kristianpaulah yes UTC is consuding at first16:25
kristianpaulseem fine16:26
kristianpaulgood wpwrak is goint to FISL too,16:27
kristianpaullast intro mail sent..16:27
rjeffrieswaht is involved with creating a new patch for milkymist?16:28
dvdkkyak: now i get the latest log.  hmm, maybe a caching issue overe here.16:28
kristianpaulrjeffries: a bit of RTFM about milkydrop,16:28
kristianpaulsadly :/16:29
kristianpauli dint fully understand it yet..16:29
rjeffrieskristianpaul wolfsprau1l making it relatively wasy for a milkymist user to create and modify patches using high level controls sounds like a genuine need16:34
rjeffriesdvdk the irc log seemed to be unreachable at first for me. then is mysteriously came to life16:35
kristianpaulrjeffries: not so, people can do minor modification and learn/experiment from there16:36
kristianpaulthere are lots of patches ready to work16:36
kristianpaulyou dont need start from scratch allways16:37
kristianpaulunless you really know what you want to do :)16:37
wpwrakdvdk: i think the irc log is updated only about every 30 minutes. with the shashdot hordes hammering at the server, it may be a bit slower :)16:38
wpwrak(twitter) nice :)16:40
lekernelrjeffries: as you can see on http://forums.winamp.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=84 people actually manage to write these things16:40
lekerneldoing it in Flickernoise isn't any harder16:40
lekernelplus we're going to have an online repository of pre-written patches with single-click update, for the lazy and clueless16:41
kristianpaulhum, seems wpwrak is also replying some comments at ?.16:42
wpwraklekernel: i hope your fanbase loves it when you talk dirty to them ;-)16:42
wpwrakkristianpaul: just one so far16:43
kristianpaulyeah i knew it was you :)16:43
rozzinkyak: I run an open, unencrypted WiFi access-point, firewall WiFi off from my wired network, and run OpenVPN on top of the WiFi link if I need satellite-to-home encryption or unfiltered access to my wired network.16:45
rozzinkyak: `open but still encrypted to the AP' isn't really all that great an idea,16:46
rjeffrieswpwrak I just pimped your VGA thingie on Identica and Google Buzz16:46
wpwrakrjeffries: great, thanks !16:49
wpwraklet's see how long until NYT picks it up :)16:49
rozzinkyak: ... because, while you [might] be insulated from the other users of the AP, you still end up trusting the AP and its operators.16:49
rozzinIt's end-to-end or bust.16:50
kyakrozzin: you are reading too much logs :)16:51
rozzinI think there actually *was* a movement to do `open but encrypted to the AP' a decade ago....16:51
rjeffrieswolfsprau1l what hardwrae is sed for your server. it is acrting hammered. a good problem to have,16:52
rozzinOr maybe I'm just remembering the move by hotspot-providers to `secure' things.16:52
rozzinI vaguely remember seeing a `why having a `secure' link to an AP operated by an unknown/untrusted operator *doesn't* provide *you* with security' article, about ten years ago.16:54
rozzinkyak: I'm actually just slow to respond.16:55
rozzinkyak: I'll tell you more about *that* in a week or so... ;)16:55
kyakrozzin: hehe :)16:56
kyakrozzin: you are building a VPN tunnel to your wired network, do i understand correctly? What should "simple" users do when they accessed your opened, unencrypted WiFI?16:57
rozzinkyak: You understand that correctly.16:58
rozzinkyak: `simple' users don't get access to my private resources on my wired network. period.16:59
rozzinkyak: That's why those resources are on a wired (physically-based access) network in the first place ;)17:00
rozzinkyak: People who are using my AP to go upstream should do the same thing regardless of whether the short/near link was encrypted: *don't trust me* not to snoop the packets passing through my AP.17:02
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: index.html: moved author's name; file format of images we can load was incorrect http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/88e09d017:03
rozzinkyak: They shouldn't trust my ISP, either.17:04
rozzinkyak: It's amazing what you can see when you control the router--I've done `I can see what you're looking at online even before you do' demonstrations for houseguests before.17:06
wpwrakrozzin: have you hard of driftnet ? :) http://www.ex-parrot.com/~chris/driftnet/17:08
rozzinMy wife had a friend over, and one of them must have said something that lead me to explain network-topologies....17:08
rozzinOh, I think one of them must have asked why it was so slow, and then watched me boot a freeloader.17:09
rozzin... who was running bittorrent or something.17:09
wpwraks/hard/heard/  # argh17:10
rozzinThen the obvious question was asked: `how did you do that, or even find that out?'17:10
rozzinwpwrak: ... so I started up driftnet...17:11
rozzin... waited a few seconds, and then asked, "So, which of you is looking at the picture of the samurai'".17:11
rozzinNeither of them knew what I was talking about, until 10 minutes later--when that image finally, actually appeared on the friend's screen (she was on some javascript-heavy site that was doing aggressive preloading).17:14
wpwrakthey would be so proud at minority report ;-)17:15
kyakrozzin: if only everyone had their own private VPn server :)17:15
rozzinShe yelled, "Wait--there's the samurai! WTF!? How did you do that!?"17:16
rozzinSo then I got out the network-diagram again....17:17
rozzinAnd they both went, `ooooh...'.17:17
rozzinkyak: Well, the point is that I'm *not* going through the VPN most of the time.17:18
rozzinkyak: I've used it something like 3 times in the past 6 years.17:19
rozzinkyak: because most of the Internet is outside my VPN anyway--see? ;)17:19
kyakwell.. guess i just have more dirty secrets17:19
rozzinkyak: Even if I passed through the VPN, I'd still have to go over an unsecured link run by an unknown/untrusted operator to get to the Internet.17:20
rozzinkyak: Several of them, in fact--try running `ping -R' or traceroute, some time :)17:21
rozzinkyak: Like I said, it's *end-to-end* or bust.17:22
kyakrozzin: that's for sure, but it's not the reason to neglect your security.17:22
kyakat least where you can17:22
rozzinkyak: Hunh?17:22
kyaki doubt some provider overthere is analyzing the whole traffic passing by. It's more probable that someone in your neighbourhood is doing that17:24
kyakso you should take care about encryption in those parts where you have control17:24
kyakthat's the best you can do, and it's better than nothing17:24
rozzinkyak: If you reduce the number of points at which someone can evesdrop on your online banking session from 10 points to 9, most of the sense of secuurity there is false.17:25
rozzinkyak: If you just secure the link end-to-end, you are better off--17:25
kyaki just hope you are not suggesting to drop the security at all because of that many points your traffic is passing through17:27
rozzinand adding additional layers of encrypted comms with local AP-operators (who you just said are more likely to be the ones sniffing your packets!;)) doesn't buy you anything beyond what the end-to-end HTTPS link gets you.17:27
rozzinkyak: I think you need to lookup what "end-to-end" means :)17:28
kristianpaulactually analyzing the whole traffic is a service you have to pay if want security :p17:29
rozzinkyak: what I'm saying is: if you care about security, use https instead of http or ftp, use ssh instead of telnet, etc.17:29
rozzinkyak: *do not trust local AP-operators like me*.17:30
kyakrozzin: i'll write it down as an advice of the year, thanks :)17:32
kristianpauldont use the internet !!17:33
rozzinkyak: ... because I've already revealed that I'm snooping on your traffic--regardless of whether you encrypt the link *between* us ;)17:34
rozzinI definitely would not trust the 19-year-old running the AP at the coffee-shop.17:36
rozzinThere's no reason to expect them to have had any ethics education at all, so I'd basically expect thinks like the infamous Zuckerberg IM session :)17:39
rozzinI'd probaly trust a 30-year-old running the cafe's AP less than the 19-year-old, too :)17:41
rozzinIs there some sort of audio-recorder that works well on Ben NanoNote?18:30
kristianpaul arecord -d 8 -f cd -t wav test.wav18:32
kristianpaulaplay later..18:33
rozzinMm. I was thinking something less... command-line :)18:33
kristianpauloh, well just install jlime18:33
rozzinI don't want jlime, just a recorder-app!18:34
Action: rozzin shrugs.18:35
kristianpauljlime includes a recoder app btw18:36
kristianpauli wanted to mean that18:36
kristianpaulyou are free to remove the other appps..18:36
rozzinI'll have to look at what that is.18:36
kristianpaulplease :)18:36
kristianpaulgotta go, bye18:37
rozzinI'm building an OpenWRT-based system for my wife, and she would like to be able to use the microphone to record the noises that the baby makes.18:38
rozzinBut it'd be an auxiliary function.18:38
rozzinThe primary use is to run ncmpc on vt1, and mpdjay in the background.18:40
rozzinGJay needs all of the CPU & RAM it can get, so I guess I'm looking for something almost as slim as arecord :)18:42
rozzinHm. Build failed...18:43
rozzinOh, right--foxtrot.18:43
rjeffriesmildly interesting19:22
lekernelsounds surprising they managed to make a decent 13MHz antenna in such a small space20:04
wpwrakhmm, is qi-hw down ?20:58
wpwrakwell, turandot at least (projects/downloads)21:03
wpwrakah, just very very very slow ....21:07
wpwrakheh, turandot:  17:11:33 up 100 days, 20:37,  2 users,  load average: 89.75, 86.85, 89.2921:28
wpwrakno surprise it's slow21:28
kyakwhat's abusing it? :)21:28
it_is_mewpwrak I supose :D21:28
it_is_mequestion: is the website 'Qi' down? no reaction, there21:30
Action: it_is_me use to read the irclogs there ;)21:30
wpwrakit's been slashdotted. seems that the evening horse is worse than the morning horde ;-)21:30
wpwrakin the morning, we got "only" a load average of around 5021:30
wpwrakhmm, 107 mysqls daemons running on turandot. and 59+11 apaches21:31
wpwrakthe main problem seems to be memory, though21:32
wpwrakah .. 9 apache2-git combos. maybe they're the greedy ones21:32
wpwraklet's see if i can get a "ps" ... the response time feels like those good old batch-oriented computers.21:34
it_is_mesources for an 32mb machine so big??21:34
Action: rozzin checks Slashdot.21:35
it_is_melinux IS a batchOS :P21:38
it_is_mewell, at least it came from there ;)21:38
Fusinwb botty21:43
wpwrakmemory seems to be mainly used by a number of  git ls-tree21:43
kyakwpwrak: hmm.. the bot is running under "eggdrop" user21:43
wpwrakkyak: eggdrop seems to behave21:44
wpwrakload average: 80.07, 89.18, 90.40   getting better21:46
kyakusers can't get served and give up21:47
wpwrakyeah, probably.21:48
wpwrakroh: any quick load control measures you can recommend ? seems that apache shouldn't accept all that many connections.21:49
wpwrakroh: (i suppose you have root on turandot ?)21:49
wpwrakload average: 69.25, 80.53, 86.7221:50
wpwrakfeeling almost responsive :)21:50
kyakthere should be MaxClients in apache config21:52
kyakmight be something else21:52
FusinListenBacklog <quantity>21:52
wpwraknot sure if listenbacklog makes a bit difference. that would be more like kernel memory wasted on connections you'll never serve. once that is the problem, you're pretty much dead already anyway ;-)21:59
wpwraki'll stop apache for a oment21:59
FusinMaxKeepAliveRequests !=0 (o is infinite)21:59
wpwraksuch a racist thing to do ... at the first sign of trouble, kill the natives21:59
FusinMaxClients defaults to 25621:59
wpwrakapache2 stop is running ... it takes a long time dying, writhing in agony21:59
wpwrakthat's about 200 more than the machine can handle :)21:59
wpwrakmass extinction event still in progress ...22:03
wpwrakuptime crept up to 80.99 again22:03
wpwrakerr, load average22:03
Fusinapache is still a patchy server ;)22:03
Fusinbtw : does anyone knows of an shell-app for android?? *g*22:04
kyakFusin: if you are talking about remote shell, that would be connectbot22:06
wpwraki think this shutdown will take a good while. taking a shower ...22:07
Fusinnah, i think of an app working like an xterm, invoking bash or /bin/sh :)22:07
Action: Fusin has an usb keyboard connected to the android tablet22:11
kyakthere is some default shell app in cyanogenmod, i'm not sure how it's called.. it's not convenient anyway, i use adb22:11
Fusinis now more like a subnotebook22:11
wpwrakDie Hard 2011: The Apache  (still not dead)22:22
wpwrakhe's gone ! finally :)22:25
wpwrakload average: 18.99, 50.12, 71.5922:28
wpwrakstill a few processes busy catching up ...22:29
wpwrakMaxClients lowered from 150 to 4022:29
FusinGeneral Custur did it faster earlier ;)22:29
Fusin*Custer (aka Hard-Backsides) :D22:30
wpwrakplanetplanet seems to be raking the disk. kjournald and pdflush both quite busy. python running under "list" as well22:30
wpwrakCuster dies trying ... historians quibble a bit about what exactly ;-)22:32
wpwrakonly one planetplanet vs. mysqld now. and, and a bit of python ana php522:33
wpwraki'll give it a bit more time to settle down. getting my laundry now ...22:33
rohwpwrak: turandot?22:35
wpwrakroh: yes22:50
wpwraki lowered the MaxClients from 150 to 40. should i do anything else before i restart apache ?22:51
wpwrakmachine is now idle. all the other (backlogged) tasks have completed as well.22:51
wpwrakwell, let's just see what happens :)22:54
wpwrakan army of apaches starts ...22:54
wpwraksome of them have git as a child22:55
rohwpwrak: dunno that machine..22:55
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga/web/index.html: correction - it's the response we fake, not the "busy" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/19c044022:56
wpwrakgood. also git commits work again :)22:56
wpwrakwolfspraul: i took down turandot's apache server for about half an hour and lowered MaxClients from an overly optimistic 150 to 40. load average had gone through the roof, >8022:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: restarted it a few minutes ago. so far, it's behaving23:00
wolfspraulahh, I was just wondering23:01
wolfspraulyes 40 is good23:02
Fusinis it a virtual server?23:02
wolfspraulthe Piwik stats show ca. 5100 visitors so far23:02
wpwrakhow many was it during the last invasion ?23:03
wolfspraulyes, virtual23:03
rohwpwrak: whats running on that machine? seving http only should be easy for some hundred connections at a time23:03
wpwrakroh: lot of things. planet, lists too, it think. downloads, some mystery mysql. git.23:04
wolfspraulthere's tons of stuff on it http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup23:04
Fusinvirtual servers are always tricky, no ones really knows what the 100 other virtual webmasters runs...23:04
wpwrakplanet is a bit of a hog. kept on running for some 5-10 minutes after apache was dead. then mysql took another 5+ more to calm down.23:05
wolfspraulI do because the entire physical box is rented by me.23:05
rohwpwrak: the most imporant thing is that the connections are closed fast, successfully23:06
wpwraklesson for the next PR campaign: put the web server on its own machine and make sure all content linked in the announcement is static ;-)23:07
rohplanet runs from cron in regular intervals23:07
rohnot that evil.23:07
rohrenders static output23:07
wpwrakroh: now apache seems to run smoothly. i think the problem with planet was that several jobs were piling up23:07
rohthat should never happen (multiple runs interleaving)23:08
wolfspraulyes, correct. connections need to be served fast or rejected right away.23:09
wpwraki saw several (3-4, don't remember exactly) planet processes burning ~60-70 CPU among each other.23:09
wolfspraulso reducing maxclient from 150 to 40 was correct, although 40 maybe is a little low now.23:09
wolfspraulthe entire machine can be optimized in many ways, but that's all work in itself and I don't want to end up with 10 different machines, say openmoko style :-)23:09
wpwrakyeah, i picked a conservative limit. see if there are any surprises :) i think the git-to-web interface is also a bit "expensive"23:10
wolfspraulto prepare for better scalability, I rather increase memory, or move to a bigger box, or even just make this machine the only one on the physical host23:10
rohwolfspraul: openmoko were not many machines. just more vms. makes administration much easier (no intersections where not neccessary)23:11
wolfspraulI know but I doubt that and I don't want many vms.23:12
wpwrakit may make sense to separate potential high-load services from the more predictable ones. that way, when a wave hits, you only have one set of services to worry about and not fires popping up all over the place.23:12
wpwrakanyway, it's all your choice ;-) i marked the two changes in apache2.conf with " - wa"23:13
wolfspraulit was 70 before, if the documentation is still correct23:14
wpwraki found 150 at both places23:15
wpwrakthere were about 70 apaches running at the time the machine nearly choked. so 70 wouldn't be such a bad guess :)23:16
wpwrak     `-9*[apache2---git]23:17
wpwrakand   `-mysqld---105*[{mysqld}]23:17
wolfspraulit was 70 (see that config file), and 70 was too much23:17
wolfspraulhe, run 'mysqltuner'23:17
wolfspraulthe Apache config file is in /etc/apache2/conf.d/qi23:18
wpwrakah, i edited /etc/apache2/apache2.conf23:18
wolfspraulI will adjust some of those mysql values now...23:20
wolfspraulwpwrak: the problem may also have been mysql23:25
wolfspraulmaybe something got stuck there which in turn got the Apache clients stuck23:26
wpwrakyes, could be. mysql kept on running for a very long time after i started stopping apache23:27
wpwrak(the stopping of apache itself took some 10-15 minutes)23:28
Fusinok, /me gosub sleep23:48
wolfspraulyes all sounds correct23:51
wolfspraulI like how these NGOs (or this article) stays relatively down to earth and just reports facts. So it helps people understand each other, which is good.23:53
wolfspraulI mean the 2 NGOs specifically mentioned as the source of these 'findings'.23:54
wolfspraulkristianpaul: in that list, which item you find is the most surprising, or most 'inhumane'?23:55
rohwolfspraul: btw.. one feat of virtualisation is: seperated ressource limiting ,)23:58
kristianpaulmay be the excessive overtime but that happene everywhere.23:58
rohlet the download apache not take down the wiki etc.23:58
kristianpaulthe "confession letter" looks odd to me23:59
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