#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-04-27

wpwrakrejon: ah, vga line length ... make that 4096 pixels. it's 2048 bytes and the bus is only 4 bits wide. not that i'd really expect to come anywhere near that kind of resolution ;-) (it's not only a question of the ben but also of the monitor. if the monitor accepts an extremely low refresh rate, which a digital monitor could, then the ben could send it truly monstrous images)01:18
rejonwpwrak cool01:19
rejonslowfi01:19
wpwrakrejon: e.g., at the moment (bit-banging), i get about 50 Hz refresh for "single" mode and 30 Hz for "double" mode. those 30 Hz are where the monitor cuts off, either because it thinks the signal makes no sense or because we're at the limit of some internal counter/divider.01:23
wpwrakslovga/slowga :)01:24
rejoncool01:31
rejonslovga01:32
rejonhahaha01:32
wpwrakgoogling ... no porn star pics appear. good :)01:33
kristianpaulhmm, to much slow*, not !!01:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah, better to make it faster than to figure out how to market something slow ;-)01:44
kristianpauloh, yes i agree01:45
kristianpauls/faster/usable/turnkey? :-)01:45
kristianpaulgustavo_: is your nanonote booting linux finally?01:54
kristianpaulI wonder if you got hardware usbboot to work..01:55
rozzinWell, I finally lost one of the little rubber feet on my NanoNote.02:16
wpwrakgrmbl. this msc controller is a pain to trick into submission02:21
gustavo_kristianpaul, not02:32
gustavo_not for usbboot without the battery02:34
wpwrak*hmm* seems that the effect does indeed depend on chip-internal capacitance02:42
dvdkhaha, found some mplayer options to tune:05:08
dvdkmplayer -novideo : > 20% CPU load05:08
dvdkmplayer -novideo -quiet : ca 10% CPU load05:08
dvdk:)05:08
dvdkmplayer console output taking 10% cpu load? maybe it's doing floating point math?05:09
dvdknow compiling with --enable-tremor-low to get audio decoding below 10% load05:09
dvdkha, with --enable-tremor-low we're now at 7% cpu load05:16
dvdknice, it now also properly plays back a 30 FPS ntsc video that it previously couldn't05:17
wpwrakdvdk: soon, you'll have HDTV with 3D ;-)05:18
dvdkwpwrak: we're still waiting for your bit-banged DVI port :)05:19
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: mplayer: upgrade to newer mplayer/ffmpeg upstream revisions, speedup tremor http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/dd5433805:20
wpwrakdvdk: hmm, if we add a shift register and put the three channels together, we might be able to have monochrome DVI ;-)05:23
dvdkwpwrak: plus a high-speed clock to shift out the bits?  :)05:24
wpwrakdvdk: the MSC controller starts to come apart at 59 MHz, which is about half the speed DVI needs. i didn't look at the signals as 59 MHz. they're probably not very pretty ;-)05:24
wpwrakdvdk: yeah, some clock doubler or quadrupler :)05:24
dvdkwpwrak: why do we need that high clock anyways?  just make neighboring bits have the same value.  bit clock isn't transmitted anyways?05:25
wpwraki thought in dvi it was ... checking ...05:26
dvdkwpwrak: ahh, ok mixing up dvi and hdmi05:26
wpwrakyup. clock is sent as well05:26
wpwrakhdmi should have it too, since it's based on dvi. checking ...05:27
dvdkwpwrak: well, then just wire up the sdio?  somehow need to fake the 8:10 encoding, though?05:27
wpwrakaye. they have it too05:27
dvdk:(05:27
wpwrakyou could pre-compute the encoding05:28
wpwrakthen just shift out the bit pattern05:28
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: nanonote-files: .mplayer/config: make mplayer -quiet by default (cpu load) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/b4bc2ad05:28
wpwrakbut let's do the vga first ...05:29
dvdkwpwrak: well, if you're only doing r,g,b in {0,1}, then yes, there's not much to precompute :)05:29
dvdkwpwrak: don't let yourself get districted by irc :)05:29
dvdks/districted/distracted05:29
wpwrakfamous last words ;-)05:29
wpwraknice. pixel rise/fall time beyond the capabilities of my scope (it says something around 5 ns, but it only does 400 MSa/s)05:46
dvdkhmm, nanonote oudio interface cannot play back 48kHz sample rate!?05:46
dvdks/oudio/audio05:46
dvdkConverting via -srate 44100 adds some 12% cpu load.  -af resample=44100:1:1 adds 1-2%05:50
wpwrakdvdk: tweak the clock ?05:55
dvdkwpwrak: or just play back  the audio+movie slower :)06:12
dvdkwhy does -ao oss eat 6% cpu load, but -ao alsa and -ao sdl eat 0% ??06:13
wpwrakdvdk: yeah. after a while, people will adapt ;-)06:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, tuxbrain is still alive but busy. finally got a "pong" from him.06:15
wolfspraulah OK, well like last year then :-) not sure this is good or bad, let's just wait a little longer I guess. I'm always optimistic.06:30
roh:)06:31
wpwrakwolfspraul: we'll see - he promised to get back to me "late night today" :)06:34
Action: roh expects the pessimistic stuff, and hopes for the outcome of a optimists view. makes one get positively surprised if stuff works ;)06:34
dvdkcool, with -ao alsa and increased audio buffer size, cpu load drops by another few percent, now NTSC material plays really well.06:39
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: mplayer: Make alsa work (use larger buffer), and use it instead of OSS This http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/030251f06:40
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: nanonote-files: .mplayer/config: use low-accuracy, fast sample rate conversion http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/dcf2e9306:42
wolfspraulroh: ah hi. I had another idea for the dmx tx push button problem - we make the entire case 1-2mm higher (the side panels)06:48
wolfspraulit turns out that the retention spring connector has the following problems:06:48
wolfspraul1) it is relatively rare compared to the push button version, so hard to get today, in the future, or for others that want to reuse the design. also it being discontinued is more likely than with the push button one.06:49
wolfspraul2) it has a slightly different pcb footprint than the push button one06:49
wolfspraul3) the mechanical stability of the retention spring is less than with the push button (I will compare the two myself later this week)06:49
wolfspraulI don't like making a big cut/notch into the top acrylic - that looks ugly. so maybe we just leave everything as-is.06:50
wolfspraulor... I was just thinking, we make the case 1-2mm higher.06:50
wolfspraulthe height is 36mm right now06:54
rohis it the space between the button and the top or the thickness of the sheet?06:55
wolfspraulI'm seeing roughly 8mm below the DMX connectors, and 5mm above them06:55
rohthickness 'behind' the button i mean06:55
wolfspraulthe push button is hard to reach because the massive round DMX cable is reaching in there06:56
rohah.. at the top06:56
wolfspraulso your finger has to press between the DMX cable and the top acrylic, and push the button down there06:56
wolfspraulso we have 8mm below the DMX connectors, but only 5 above06:56
wolfspraulif the height would add say 2mm, maybe it's easier to press down the push button06:56
wolfspraulit probably is06:56
rohi see.. so giving it some 3mm there could already help06:56
wolfspraulsure I think so06:57
wolfsprauldo you have a DMX cable there?06:57
roh'centering' of the dmx socket06:57
rohnope.. but some xlr mike cable06:57
wolfspraulif you have one, just plug into the TX connector and try to push the 'push' button06:57
rohin the end its a xlr 3pin right?06:57
wolfspraulyou will immediately see the problem06:57
wolfspraulyes I think mic is male too, right?06:57
rohhas both ends06:57
wolfspraulyou can try to connect it06:57
rohthe cable i mean06:57
wolfspraulgreat, just try06:57
rohwill do as soon as i got a table ;)06:58
wolfspraulactually I think you designed the height of the case after the 'push' button06:58
wolfspraulbecause it _barely_ fits06:58
wolfspraulthe top side of the push button is basically touching the top acrylic06:58
wolfspraulI don't think adding 2 or 3 mm will destroy the overall look of the case, but you never know06:59
rohi think thats more by accident06:59
wolfspraulit certainly adds a lot more air inside, because nobody but the DMX connectors needs this much height06:59
rohi will see what that involves at the end. will check for availability of spacers06:59
rohthe top spacers would need to be longer06:59
wolfspraulahh06:59
wolfspraulgood point06:59
wolfspraulI forgot that06:59
roh ;)06:59
wolfsprauland they are a nice 30mm right now06:59
rohexactly06:59
wolfspraulwell I think cutting into the top acrylic above the push button is really ugly07:00
wolfspraulbut who knows, maybe others think that's fine?07:01
wolfspraulmaybe in the end we leave everything as-is :-)07:02
wolfspraultry with your xlr cable and let me know what you think...07:02
wolfspraulI will compare retention spring and push button connectors later this week07:02
rohsure. will take a few days till we are operational here anyhow07:03
rohjust did a quick check.. 35mm seems the next common size for spacers07:03
wolfspraultoo high I think07:04
wolfspraullet's scratch that idea07:04
wpwrakgiven a cable that carries signals "red", "green", and "blue", how would we color-code them ? obviously, red = orange, green = red, blue = medium brown.07:04
wolfspraulroh: how do you like a 'notch' in the top acrylic, design-wise?07:05
wolfspraula curve-shaped cutout above the dmx tx push button...07:05
rohnot that much. would look weird07:08
wolfspraulhmm. ok. what bugs me the most about the retention spring connector is that it clearly seems rarer than the push button one.07:09
wolfspraulfrom a copyleft perspective that's bad.07:09
rohsure. but in xlr and speakon there is no way to reasonable way beyond neutrik anyhow07:10
wolfspraulit's still from Neutrik so most likely it will be available for a long time, many years. but still. anyway I will compare the two in terms of mechanical stability first.07:10
wolfspraulI will compare the connectors, then I know whether I think the retention spring one is just crap mechanically. which I doubt it is.07:10
wolfspraulat that point we can use it, and done.07:10
wolfspraulor we leave everything as-is07:10
rohi used these connectors in many variants and clones before. and there is simply no reason besides trouble to buy from another vendor07:10
wolfspraulor we add a cutout into the top acrylic07:10
wolfspraulnobody is talking about another vendor07:11
wolfspraulneutrik has a retention spring version, without 'push' button07:11
wolfspraulwe can switch to that07:11
rohjust mentioning.. that we are bound to that vendor regardless which product07:11
wolfspraulthat's one option07:11
wolfspraulyes but the retention spring seems to be rarer07:11
wolfsprauldigikey, mouser, all have the push one in stock, the retention spring either 0 or very low quantities (like ca. 20)07:12
rohhm. yes. that trouble07:13
wolfspraulmouser - push button 6259, retention spring 24 (Adam just bought 2 and brought it from 26 to 24 :-))07:16
wolfspraulthat kind of thing07:16
wolfspraulnot good07:16
wolfspraulfactory lead time 10 weeks07:16
wolfspraulwe could rotate just the dx connector left 90 degrees, but that's also ugly, and we cannot roate the RX connector because the push button is on the cable there, needs to be on top to be reachable07:18
wolfspraulI meant "just the tx connector"07:18
rohheh. troubles of ME ;)07:19
wolfspraulfarnell - push button 2459, retention spring 007:19
wolfspraulmaybe a cutout in the top acrylic is a good idea07:22
wolfspraulit's all about pros and cons07:22
wolfspraulthink about it...07:22
awwolfspraul, forgot to mention that being rarer to get retention spring. even later you get samples and feel that, I still don't think that we should change to retention spring one. :-)07:29
awi just finished testing on  2A fuse / 2* Zeners. :-)07:30
awI'll carefully read the results and send results to list though. :-)07:30
wolfspraulaw: let me first compare the 2 connectors mechanically07:30
wolfspraulbut yes, it sounds like retention spring is not a good idea, for me primarily because it's rare, and we are really trying hard to build a reusable base for the future07:31
wolfspraulso that's a big thing for me07:31
wolfspraulthen we are down so some other optios07:32
awwolfspraul, hmm..07:32
wolfspraul1) leave everything as-is07:32
wolfspraul2) turn dmx tx 90 degree to the left, leave dmx rx as-is (sebastien says ugly)07:32
wolfspraul3) cutout top acrylic above the push button (roh says ugly)07:32
wolfspraulwe'll contemplate :-)07:32
wolfspraullet's not get stuck on this one, it's a small thing and if we cannot come up with an improvement, we simply leave everything as-is07:33
wolfspraulI cannot disconnect DMX TX with my thumb, but with my point finger I can. oh well.07:36
wolfspraul:-)07:36
wolfspraulI don't think the DMX cables need to be connected and disconnected many times, say like something on USB, VGA, Ethernet, even video-in07:39
awme either...hard to disconnect DMX TX cable. .07:39
awyup...personal idea that should rarely plug in/out DMX cable. but well I am not the mature DJ, so I quite don't know how often they use them.07:40
wolfspraulroh: you could even make 2 such cutouts, just like half-moon shaped, above both the DMX TX as well as DMX RX connectors07:55
wolfspraulthat would probably look better, and the DMX RX also has a push button, although it is on the cable so far better to reach than the one on the DMX TX connector07:56
wolfspraulmaybe 2 cutouts would look funny though (=not good), don't know07:57
rohdunno. also it would thin the already small rim which holds the side panel08:06
wolfspraultrue, above the DMX RX is the rim. oh well :-) like you say, welcome to ME...08:08
wolfspraulthat was just for symmetry, it's not needed in order to release the DMX RX cable08:09
kristianpaulargg, spam back...10:56
Fusinhi 2 all15:29
kristianpaulhi15:38
Fusin;)15:38
Fusinhmm, i found pages talking bout Ya Nanonote as 'successor' to Ben.15:46
FusinIs it planned to stop producing Ben?15:47
Fusinbtw.: just for the interest: how many ben's are sold?15:48
kristianpaulFusin: more thatn 1100 units i remenber sold16:20
kristianpauland yes it still been produced Fusin16:21
kristianpaullast 1000 units batch was early this year i remenber16:21
Fusini hope it still will in 10 years16:21
kristianpauland i think there is one more left, i think...16:21
kristianpaulwell in 10 years we should have a milkymist portable computer at least :D16:22
Action: Fusin remembers the development on good old c64. The older it was, the better the software ;)16:22
kristianpaulwell i hope my ben will still working, for a long time also, and if some passive component reach the end of life i could easilly replace it :-)16:23
FusinI see this Ben as a good base for a PIM/PDA with good possibilities for little games (like those old 8bit-games [boulder-dash/sokoban/tetris/elite/mercenars/etc.pp]16:26
Fusinalso good as ogg-player ;)16:26
FusinNo need for more. Bigger would be a sub-netbook :D16:27
FusinLaptop battery is empty, /me leaves ans waves to all 'Good night guys'16:48
rjeffrieswpwrak fyi only. http://norduino.robomotic.com/category/norduino-hardware/16:56
rjeffrieswolfspraul we have not had an update on Nanonote sales for quite a while. I realize you do not have data on sell-through by your distributors16:58
rjeffriesbut could you tell us how many Bens Sharism has shipped? As mentioned before, my gut feeling is that rate of sales is quite slow recently, based on no newbiews showing up on irc or mail list17:00
wpwrakrjeffries: (nordic) sounds proprietary. that norduino page is also amazingly non-specific about any technical details17:16
rjeffrieshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJKhmeUsyhA&NR=117:19
rjeffriesthe radios are all proprietary including ATben/ATusb17:20
rjeffriesI think the rest of his stuff is open a la Jee Labs17:20
wpwrakrjeffries: wrong. atben/atusb is IEEE 802.15.4-compliant17:20
rjeffriesagree17:20
wpwrakrjeffries: the nordic stuff doesn't claim compatibility with anything17:21
wpwrakrjeffries: also, IEEE 802.15.4 defined various PHYs. the most likely to be able to talk to others is the 2450 MHz O-QPSK PHY. (IEEE 802.15.4, 2450 MHz is enough to identify it. there are other 2450 MHz PHYs, but defined in other documents, 803.25.4a and such)17:24
wpwrakerr, 802.15.4a17:25
rjeffriesI have asked them about what license they use and about the Nordic chip17:27
rjeffriesI seem to remember in dim recesses that Nordic is doing their own thing17:27
rjeffriesthe beauty of the Nordic chip is very low power17:28
rjeffrieswpwrak have you had any status at all from Tuxbrain re the fisrt manufacturing run? teh silence is deafening17:29
rjeffrieswpwrak what has to happen (once you have eveerything working) to be able to easily install ATusb code on Ubuntu17:31
rjeffrieswpwrak Nordic may use ANT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANT_(network)17:37
wpwrakrjeffries: (ant) sounds like a dead end, like so many "vendor standards" that perished when a proper standard came out17:41
wpwrakrjeffries: (tuxbrain) he says he's very busy. i should have some more news from him soonish, though. (btw, i did mention this on the channel. you should stay logged in / read the logs :)17:43
wpwrak(ubuntu) ubuntu will be hard, because of their freakish custom kernel. the path of least resistance would be via upstream. so expect a few months until it's there. (or figure out how to build a vanilla kernel that works on ubuntu)17:44
rjeffrieswpwrak I am not promotingAnt protocol. I do wonder how well 6LoWpan will perform as in environment where a node only needs to connect once or twice an hour20:30
rjeffrieswpwrak I do not understand what this statement means, sorry... "the path of least resistance would be via upstream..."20:31
rjeffrieswpwrak putting Ubuntu aside, what distro are you working with for ATusb?20:33
wpwrakrjeffries: my workstation is running ubuntu. i haven't touched kernel support for atusb yet. (richard has written a skeleton driver, though. no idea what distro he uses.)20:55
wpwrakrjeffries: (low duty cycle) you may find this document useful: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6lowpan-usecases/?include_text=120:58
wpwrakrjeffries: (path of least resistance) means that building a kernel that works is a bit messy with ubuntu (or at last it was the last time i tried)21:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga: avoid diodes; redesign for luminance bit (Y) and MMC controller http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/a794c4b21:33
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga: added driver based on the MMC controller (highly experimental) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/a75972321:33
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-vga2.c: code cleanup and some fine-tuning http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/9a455c521:33
Jay7rejon: ping21:44
Jay7rejon: please provide some info about you to introduce.. I'm not very anknowledged with sharism people :)21:49
rejonha21:49
rejonqi-hardware21:49
rejonsharism.cc same21:49
Jay7better to provide some template for me :)21:50
rejonok sure21:51
rejonredirection nonstop21:51
Jay7i.e. who you are, what you doing, etc :)21:52
Jay7rejon: I'm going to bed now so I'll introduce you tomorrow then21:57
Jay7rejon: please send me some info about you by email :)21:58
rejoni will Jay7 chers21:58
rejoncheers21:58
rejonhttp://rejon.org/bio21:58
Jay7rejon: wow.. respectable bio :)22:00
Jay7well, I'll do right now then22:01
Jay7I'll use 4 sentence bio :)22:01
rejonthanks Jay722:03
Jay7rejon: sent22:10
Jay7I hope I was right when said that you are one of people behind NanoNote :)22:10
rejoni try to help best i can22:12
rejon;)22:12
--- Thu Apr 28 201100:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!