#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-04-04

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/: new libatrf function atrf_slp_tr to control SLP_TR (for now only atben) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/fe2720e01:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-xtal: new utility to measure the crystal frequency http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/28e7f2501:54
wpwrakah, i see heavy wpan advertizing in this news issue ;-)02:26
wolfspraulwpwrak: I'm working on the last section now, phew02:29
wolfspraulthere is still Jane's kitchen adventure02:29
wolfspraulwe got: avr, ubb, ben-wpan02:29
wolfspraulwhat about this 'initial 802.15.4 communication'02:30
wolfspraulis there a good mail on the list to link to?02:30
wpwrakthere's one ... looking it up ...02:31
wpwrakhttp://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-March/007639.html02:32
wpwrakit was actually quite a busy month even if it didn't feel like much :)02:33
wolfspraulperfect, thanks02:33
wolfspraulyes. I feel like the editor of a small tech magazine.02:33
wpwrak*grin*02:33
wpwrak(ben-wpan production) not sure if tuxbrain already started the process with the SMT fab. he did with the PCB fab.02:34
wpwraka picture with some of the boards i sent out ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/2boards-20110305.jpg02:36
wpwrakit's not 100% truthful, because only one set of them went out. the other is mine. and the other three sets were already on their way. but it's a good approximation :)02:37
wpwrakthe same image, for the high-res junkies: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/2boards-20110305-full.jpg02:37
wpwrakfighting the great chinese firewall ? :)02:48
wolfsprauloh it's crazy02:49
wolfspraulthere is a massive crackdown going on02:49
wolfspraultoday I will write my own evacuation list, an inventory of things like A) hand-luggage B) send by parcel C) abandon02:50
wpwrakwow. what's happening ?02:50
wolfspraulgotta speed up my work here :-)02:50
wolfsprauloh already for weeks02:50
wolfspraulthey take out lawyers, detain, torture, home confinement (total lockdown), etc. etc.02:51
wolfspraulI actually just disabled my vpn, what the heck02:51
wpwraklovely. do they have any special motivation/objective ? or is it just spring cleaning ?02:52
wolfspraulthe arab thing02:52
wolfspraulpolice everywhere02:52
wpwrakaah !02:52
wolfspraulhttp://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/china-detains-artist-ai-wei-wei/02:53
wolfspraulI am actually prepared that they will completely shut down all VPN, even all ssh/ssl02:54
wolfspraulthey just need to press a button, that's for sure02:54
wolfspraulif that happens I have to leave02:54
wpwrak23 people detained doesn't sound too bad. but i guess with a lot of collateral damage ...02:55
wolfspraulthere are hundreds more02:56
wolfspraulplus there are many 'disappearances'02:57
wolfspraulanyway. I need my vpn, ssh/ssl.02:57
wolfsprauland I will start a proper inventorization :-)02:57
wpwrak(disappearances) oh nice. the return of the death squads ?02:58
wolfspraulnah, it's a very fine tuned system02:58
wolfspraulthey seal you away02:58
wolfspraulcut all communication02:58
wolfspraulsometimes 100 people assigned to make you disappear02:58
wolfspraulof course the screws can also be tightened02:59
wpwrakinteresting system02:59
wolfspraulI cannot access this link right now, but I think it was a pretty good text on how the system works, as seen from a target :-)03:00
wolfspraulhttp://www.hrichina.org/public/contents/press?revision_id=191948&item_id=19194703:00
wolfspraulcommunication (the ability to communicate or not) is very much at the center of this actually03:01
wpwraklink works here03:01
wolfspraullong text, Wernerian :-)03:01
wolfspraulthey will definitely loose control at some point, if the ability to lock down communication is what they need to stay in power, they will have a problem03:02
wpwrakyeah, i was starting to look for the summary ;-)03:02
wolfspraulI think the phones, networks, microblogs etc. will pop up everywhere03:02
wolfspraulnot sure who can keep up more/faster03:02
wolfspraulthe system or the individual :-)03:02
wolfspraulmy bet is on the individual, of course03:03
wpwrakcutting communication inside a country ought to be difficult03:03
wolfsprauloh03:03
wolfspraulmaybe you should live in China for a while :-)03:03
wolfsprauljust read that article, if you have a few minutes03:04
wolfspraullast year they supposedly spent ca. 90 billion USD on 'harmonious society' which is the umbrella for all these shutdown/lockdown activities03:05
wolfspraulman we should pump that into copyleft hardware03:05
wolfspraulthat's almost 250 million USD / day03:05
wolfspraulthey should invest it in better education system so the culture can survive even with free speech, which it cannot today03:06
wpwraksounds strangely civilized so far. i've read considerably worse stories from germany about confiscated equipment ...03:18
wolfspraulyes!03:19
wolfspraulthat's the point03:19
wolfspraulit's extremely subtle03:19
wolfspraulbut make no mistake, they are increasing the screws all the way to the most brutally imaginable torture and killing, if need be03:19
wolfspraulwpwrak: what do you think? in the future - will the government be able to control your communication, or not?03:37
wolfspraulI somehow cannot see how they will be able to fully control it. There are too many people, and the ways to communicate constantly increase.03:37
wolfspraulof course they can aggressively use the same technology for themselves, which is what China is doing. But somehow I think the favor is still on the side of the user, if only because there are so many of them, and they have so many ideas, each one individually, how to circumvent whatever roadblocks.03:38
wolfspraulwhen computers are hunting people, people will win, I think03:38
wolfspraulcomputers are just too stupid in the end :-)03:39
wpwrakif i pissed off any government sufficiently, i would assume that they'd just find a reason to arrest me. much easier than subtly constraining all communications03:40
wolfspraulif communication is your crime, they need to build prisons for the entire population03:41
wpwraki guess it's all in the numbers. as long as the number of "enemies of the state" is small, you can just pick them out and neutralize them.03:42
wolfspraulyes03:43
wpwrakif everybody is kinda subversive, then there's a problem ...03:43
wpwrak(article) nice and subtle. i wonder how they treat younger dissidents.03:55
wpwrakwolfspraul: regarding Makefile.kicad, there'll be a larger announcement once i've documented it a bit (with a drawing). not sure if you want to have a teaser now and the real thing later, or wait for the diagram.03:59
wolfspraulit's written now, I just leave it there03:59
wolfspraulI have no doubts about the power of our news, we need to do more to spread the word04:00
wpwrakhehe ;-)04:00
wolfspraulhigh quality by itself will still not go many places04:00
wolfspraulI just added Jane's ascii comi04:00
wolfspraulcomic04:00
wolfspraulI think I'm done now04:00
wolfspraulwhat do you think?04:00
wpwrakyes. the world still largely ignores us04:00
wpwraklemme check ...04:00
wpwrakah, you missed a few messages04:01
wpwrak| (ben-wpan production) not sure if tuxbrain already started the process with the SMT fab. he did with the PCB fab.04:01
wpwrak| a picture with some of the boards i sent out ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/2boards-20110305.jpg04:01
wpwrak| it's not 100% truthful, because only one set of them went out. the other is mine. and the other three sets were already on their way. but it's a good approximation :)04:01
wpwrak| the same image, for the high-res junkies: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/2boards-20110305-full.jpg04:01
wpwrak(end)04:03
wolfspraulwpwrak: very nice, thank you. I added the picture.04:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: maybe reorder the ben-wpan entries such that one related to production is above the PCB images. e.g., first the prototypes, the first communication, tuxbrain taking the lead, and finally Makefile.kicad (which is what produced the images)04:11
wpwraklots of love this month ;-)04:12
wolfspraultoo much? let me count04:12
wolfspraul3 times, wow04:13
wolfspraulI removed one04:14
wolfspraulthey just 'meet' now04:14
wolfspraulreordered04:14
wolfspraulwhat do you think now?04:14
wolfspraulyes, it's good now04:14
wolfspraulcool!04:14
wpwrak"Tuxbrain will lead ben-wpan production and has started the process with the SMT fab." -> PCB fab ?04:15
wolfspraulchanged04:15
wolfspraulI will let this sink another hour or two, then push it out04:15
wpwrakthe attic is a bit odd. it seems to suggest that the project has changed location, but nothing of that nature is indicated.04:16
wpwrak(captions) the ben+atduino was actually the one with the most love ... :)04:17
wpwrakwell, i guess people will recognize the cable's shape also without explaining ...04:17
wolfspraulyes04:18
wolfspraulthe attic is first of all a concept04:18
wolfspraulI don't like to write a lot of bla bla, so I was happy when I read this at Apache04:18
wolfspraulover time we may make it more clear what is in the attic and what not04:19
wolfspraulbut it's about the definition, for now04:19
wolfspraulhttp://attic.apache.org/04:19
wolfspraulI did not find a link to go with the line that says that Tuxbrain will lead ben-wpan production.04:19
wolfspraulif you find something let me know, I'm offline for a bit04:20
wpwraklemme see ...04:20
wpwraktuxbrain: do you remember having posted any kind of formal announcement anywhere that you'll make the wpan boards ? wolfgang is looking for a link for the monthly news05:00
wpwraktuxbrain: all i found was http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2011-03-30.log.html#t14:3705:00
tuxbrainwpwrak: just posted http://www.tuxbrain.com/en/content/we-will-put-wireless-nanonote06:26
DocScrutinizer(<wolfspraul> when computers are hunting people, people will win, I think --  computers are just too stupid in the end) I hate it but alas I have to strictly disagree here. While particular individuals are maybe hard to 100% survey, the 99.9% factor is discouragingly effective here. And people in general are becoming more and more idiotic, ignorant, and even take fun in doing their own fulltime surveillance publicly for free07:29
DocScrutinizersomebody minted a nice saying yesterday in TV: all those smartphones PDA etc are all creating ever better databases profiling the user everywhere, and all those databases are at commercial companies and not at some Orwellian totalitarian gvmnt. We won't see big brother, long term we got the problem of the 1000 sisters07:34
DocScrutinizere.g. seems Nokia would sponsor me to go to SanFran zo the meego-conference. Alas I can't do that as they require me to have and use a AmEx or similar credit card to order the tickets and they'd refund later. I refuse to get any credit card, out of general concerns against07:40
DocScrutinizerin that TV report they oracled that til 2017 smartphones will mnitor all your health relevant data, and you will get problems in several regards if you don't join in on the hype to do that (no health ensurance for you, sorry. No job. No drivers licence... you name it)07:42
Jay7DocScrutinizer: you missed 2012 year which should cleanup such locks :)08:23
wolfspraulfinally, the 04/04 news are out10:49
wolfspraulhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2011-04-0410:49
wolfspraulthanks everybody for helping, and for making it possible in the first place :-)10:49
lekerneltuxbrain: the commands for programming the AVR breakout are scary :p11:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: (news) yay, and nice they are once more. congratulations !12:10
wpwraktuxbrain: btw, i wouldn't count on zigbee. seems that zigbee's importance is fading. e.g., most of the zigbee stack is getting replaced by 6lowpan. besides, they still have licensing terms on their standard that are incompatible with Free software.12:13
xiangfuhttp://www.avolites.com/jokes/programmers.htm  :)13:30
xiangfu1. "It works on my machine..".13:30
larscso true13:34
larsc"13:34
larsc"16. It must be a hardware problem." :)13:34
kyaki like this joke:13:35
kyakQ: How many programmers does it take to screw in a light bulb? A: None, it's a hardware problem, man!13:35
wpwrakkyak: that's the bad think about projects like qi-hardware where the two are combined - you can't just blame the other side anymore13:50
larscnot?14:10
wpwraklarsc: well, we can always just blame lars ;-)14:10
larsc...14:10
kristianpaullol14:10
kristianpaulkyak: not hw guy  problem  anymore, you are at qi ;-)14:11
DocScrutinizeryeah, QtMobility polling a proximity sensor sysfs node @ 100Hz. The sensor itself has a max freq of 2.5Hz - plus I thought there's a concept called kevents for that14:16
tuxbrainis not hardware or sofware, is the kerneL }:P14:16
DocScrutinizerthen everybody starts shouting at EE about power hungry hw14:16
DocScrutinizersenserfw (in meego) exactly same - this time for LIS302 accelerometer. Ignorant fools14:23
DocScrutinizerthat's what you get when script kiddies and math profs decide to develop system software14:23
DocScrutinizerhttp://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/master/plugins/sensors/n900/n900proximitysensor.cpp#line5414:23
DocScrutinizerdunno if that's annoying or just terribly sad14:23
kristianpaul"From Buenos Aires with love." sweet14:24
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: 100 Hz for a 1.5 Hz sensor ? this rocks ! 66x Oversampling !! ;-)18:30
larscbetter be on the safe side when you want to avoid aliasingeffects ;)18:32
DocScrutinizeryeah. For the lis302 it's way more complex to evaluate. Device orientation isn't even changing at such high rates as 2Hz, still you might want to poll at 400Hz (which I think is what they do, or was it 200?)19:03
DocScrutinizerin sensorfw of meego19:03
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: i think you can get much more than 2 Hz in games. also, consider click-like movements19:13
DocScrutinizeryeah, I always wondered what this strange registers like click-threshold and doubleclick-timeout in lis302 are for, to be found somewhere next to IRQ generation ยง in ds19:13
DocScrutinizerand probably not even the designers of this chip had any idea WTF you need a highpass for in a g-meter19:13
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: maybe they're thinking of making a mouse. you hit it or tilt it (or part of it) onto an obstacle (table or such) to click19:13
DocScrutinizerjust added that thing as it sounds good19:13
wpwrakhigh-pass sounds interesting :)19:13
DocScrutinizeroooh, didn't think it's needed. So here they are: </irony>19:13
DocScrutinizerhigh pass is in fact a DC rejection aka differentiator/'edge-detector'19:14
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: a gravity compensator ?19:18
DocScrutinizerhehe19:18
DocScrutinizerbasically yes, alas only in the abstract domain19:19
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: gravity compensator sounds a bit sensational ... but marketing should at least have made this an Ultra-High-Pass Filter19:21
kristianpaulmirko: Thanks !, great post  (rfm12b)19:21
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